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  #1  
Old 08-09-2011, 06:01 PM
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Default Drum sizes and resonance

Ok, so I've got an amazing kit, it really is (in my eyes) but it's also large.

It's a Mapex with all Remo heads, and all of my toms sound great, except the 8"...

Running up from the 16 to the 10 they all sound right they go up in more or less equal scale but when I get to my 8 it's too flat, and if I detune it gets slack and if I raise then it gets too high pitch.

I don't use a tuner and how I normally get my sound is tighten to finger tight, give them a quick run over and adjust if I need to. I don't tend to key them overly unless it's needed.

I've tried doing the same with my 8" with no luck.

Any suggestions to get it sounding in line with the others?
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

What heads are on it?
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:59 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Clear Ambassadors I think.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Dear friend, you're coming up against a problem that many face, & also fighting against plain physics. 8" toms are little b&^%rds to get right, & even when you do "crack the code", they will never deliver the family soundscape you crave.

I have quite a bit of experience in both tuning & designing 8" toms. Sustain & shell tone are eternal challenges. Put simply, the heads don't have enough mass to offer much in the way of sustain. That's not just a head thickness thing (although increasing head thickness can help sit them in with larger toms), it's a head diameter thing mainly. When you strike a drum head, it's response isn't linear. Waves run across & around the head, almost as if it's a liquid. The close proximity of the edges of an 8" effectively chokes off natural amplification & reaction of those waves.

Even though I say so myself (ahem), I have the best sounding 8" toms I've ever heard, yet I'm not satisfied with them either. An 8" tom should really be regarded as an accent piece, rather than a fully signed up member of the kit tom family. Think in those terms, & your goals will be more in reach. You can help by moving to a heavier single ply head, using the same head both top & bottom, & tuning both heads to exactly the same pitch. 10mil Evans G+ is a good starting point.

Good luck.
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
An 8" tom should really be regarded as an accent piece, rather than a fully signed up member of the kit tom family.
Exactly. A head that small isn't capable of the same decay properties of a larger head. For example, by dropping a pebble in a pool vs dropping it in a fishbowl, you can see how differently the waves behave. Same applies to the vibration of a head: the smaller the surface, the faster the waves/vibrations dissipate.

On concert toms sets, the 6 & 8" toms are almost regarded as bongos rather than a cohesive part of a run of toms. The usable range is really 10-16".

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Old 08-10-2011, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
The usable range is really 10-16".

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Old 08-10-2011, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

I've taken it as an accent peice, I was just wondering if there is a way of running them into family sound.

Because of the size of my kit and the way I play, I have two tom runs. Meant simply as I do a fill using 3, maybe 4 of my toms, and I have 7 of them. So I essentially have a high and a low fill ability. The 8" is then just an accent.

Thanks anyway, when it comes to changing heads I'll switch up for the 10mil as suggested and see what happens.

Danke!
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

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Originally Posted by Nuka View Post
Thanks anyway, when it comes to changing heads I'll switch up for the 10mil as suggested and see what happens.
Just for the record. You already have a 10mil head on it mate. An Ambassador and a G1 are effectively the same head. Both 10mil single ply......anything else comes down to Remo or Evans.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

I had the same problem with my 8 inch Gretsch Renown. I fooled with it forever. Just for beans, I took off the top hoop and and turned it a few lugs and it sounds fine. Can't explain it, it just worked. Try it and see, but be patient.
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  #10  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:13 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

I probably spend more time on my 8" toms than I do with every other drum combined. My Starclassic Bubinga 8" x 7" has a two ply clear as a batter and a single ply clear for the resonant head, the only issue is that it only has four tension rods per side and is a bit more tricky to get it sounding the way I want it and keeping it there compared to my Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute which is an 8" x 8" and my Gretsch Renown is an 8" x 7". Both of these toms have five lugs per side and seem to tune and keep their tuning longer than the Bubinga drum.

What I find is that if I'm having difficulties tuning any of the 8" toms, I take both heads down to just finger tightness and start over. These tiny drums can chock up fairly readily, but if they're done correctly, they can fit-in with their bigger siblings in tone resonance and sustain, although the sustain will be a bit less because of it's proportionate size to the larger toms. I just take baby steps tuning these little critters. After I have both heads just finger tight, I might just give the resonant head an eighth of a turn at each tension rod in a star-like pattern, flip the drum over and do the same to the batter head. I then get the resonant head in tune with itself and then the batter head. If you don't have a workable tone out of the drum, give each tension rod another eighth of a turn and again keep the heads in tune with themselves during this entire process. You can very quickly move out of their very narrow resonant area by turning each rod too much at a time. Even an eighth of a turn at each tension rod is like giving that side of the head over a half a turn. Try keeping both heads at the same pitch, this will also help in the long run for the greatest sustain.

Remember, very slowly and gradually. This is why I always re-head and tune my 8" toms last. It's really worth the time it takes when you can get them sounding good. Another thing that will probably help you would be using the same thickness heads on the top and bottoms. I recommend either Evans G1s or Remo Ambassadors.

I had a fifteen hour day today, so if I made any mistakes, blame me latter, lol.

Dennis
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  #11  
Old 08-11-2011, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Just more time to pour in hehe.

How would removing the res head altogether go? I'll try the move the hoop thing and the slow tuning, but I was just wondering how in effect an 8" concert time would match up to the rest of the kit.

I'm away from my kit now for a few weeks (it is going to KILL me lol) so I'll try all this when I get back to Sheffield.
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:01 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

I occupy both heads eat to righteous touch immovability and turn over. These tiny drums can wedge up clean readily, but if they're finished right, they can fit-in with their large siblings in look resonance and have, though the have module be a bit fewer because of it's proportionate situation to the large toms. I fitting involve mortal steps tuning these younger critters. After I jazz both heads retributory digit closed, I mightiness fair relinquish the apiece tenseness rod in a star-like itinerary, thumb the drumfish over and do the synoptic to the strike perversion.
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

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Originally Posted by lasvan58 View Post
I occupy both heads eat to righteous touch immovability and turn over. These tiny drums can wedge up clean readily, but if they're finished right, they can fit-in with their large siblings in look resonance and have, though the have module be a bit fewer because of it's proportionate situation to the large toms. I fitting involve mortal steps tuning these younger critters. After I jazz both heads retributory digit closed, I mightiness fair relinquish the apiece tenseness rod in a star-like itinerary, thumb the drumfish over and do the synoptic to the strike perversion.
Could you say this again in English, lol.

Dennis
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Google translate strikes again!
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

IMO, an 8" tom is a waste of time, hard to hit with little useability and not so hot tone. The 10" size seems to be the smallest you can go without losing tone.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

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IMO, an 8" tom is a waste of time, hard to hit with little useability and not so hot tone. The 10" size seems to be the smallest you can go without losing tone.
A Jelepeno Drums 8" snare on the other hand...

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  #17  
Old 08-14-2011, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

This thread makes me feel better. I have always had trouble tuning 8's,mine and other peoples,the easiest one I ever tuned was a pearl 8x8 export,and like you guys said it still did not sound proportionally as much like the other toms.The hardest to tune was my pair of 8 and 10 ludwig 70's 3 ply standard depth concert toms,getting either one to sound decent by itself was not that hard,but getting them in tune relative to each other was a PIA,and then getting them in tune with each other and the rest of the double headed toms was very time consuming and just about drove me nuts,enough so that I only changed heads on them once in 10 years.I have an Eames 8x7 double head that while it sounds good,sounds better as a high timbale/effects drum.I also tried a tension watch,and those things don't seem to work on 8's very well,I have never had to tune a 6,that must be at least as hard as an 8 I am thinking,probably enough to drive me to the brink of sanity.
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  #18  
Old 08-14-2011, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

I will readily admit that I'm no expert on 8" toms - I've owned two, both concert toms, and I liked them tuned TIGHT! However, I've heard several kits in which I really liked the 8" and they seemed to fit in. Give Gavin Harrison's kit a listen. Also, Danny Carey uses an 8" as his smallest tom. I love Gavin's drum sound, and that 8 incher fits right in, so I think it's doable. They just seem to be finicky.
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Off-topic but for the British forumers: "After I jazz both heads retributory digit closed, I mightiness fair relinquish the a piece tenseness rod in a star-like itinerary, thumb the drumfish over and do the synoptic to the strike perversion"

Remind you of anyone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz3D_6o6PqI

No offence intended to the poster at all! The translation made me chuckle tis all!

Kev
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2011, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Howden View Post
Off-topic but for the British forumers: "After I jazz both heads retributory digit closed, I mightiness fair relinquish the a piece tenseness rod in a star-like itinerary, thumb the drumfish over and do the synoptic to the strike perversion"

Remind you of anyone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz3D_6o6PqI

No offence intended to the poster at all! The translation made me chuckle tis all!

Kev
Made me chuckle, thanks. Looks like I might have to "jazz up my heads" before "thumbing some tuna fish" :P
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  #21  
Old 08-23-2011, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasvan58 View Post
... jazz both heads and thumb the drumfish ...
It all seems so "simple", now ...
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Old 09-10-2011, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

I populate both heads eat to just proposition immobility and appeal over. These tiny drums can heel up tidy pronto, but if they're complete ethical, they can fit-in with their whopping siblings in wait kinship and acquire, though the bang ability be a bit less because of it's balanced situation to the mountainous, I mightiness middling resign the apiece stress rod in a star-like itinerary, molding the drumfish over and do the synoptic to the displace perversion.
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

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Originally Posted by karfin55 View Post
I populate both heads eat to just proposition immobility and appeal over. These tiny drums can heel up tidy pronto, but if they're complete ethical, they can fit-in with their whopping siblings in wait kinship and acquire, though the bang ability be a bit less because of it's balanced situation to the mountainous, I mightiness middling resign the apiece stress rod in a star-like itinerary, molding the drumfish over and do the synoptic to the displace perversion.
I'm so sorry, but I could not help but laugh at this whole thing ahahaha.
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

I populate both heads eat to meet proposal immobility and postulation over. These tiny drums can angle up fastidious pronto, but if they're finish right, they can fit-in with their whopping siblings in wait relationship and evolve, though the rush power be a bit inferior because of it's counterbalanced condition to the mountainous, I strength middling leave the apiece inflection rod in a star-like guidebook, ornament the drumfish over and do the same to the exclude sex.
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Old 09-14-2011, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

My 8" resonates every bit as much as my 10" or 12", and I even had to take the classic clear off the batter side and put a studio x on it to control it the same as the rest of my toms. But you must also remember that when Peavey built the radial pro drums they built them with the ideal depth for the size and 2.3 mm shell thickness for resonance without odd harmonic overtones. The 8" is 8.5" deep, the 10" is 9" deep, the 12" is 10" deep, the 14" is 12" deep and the 16" is 14" deep.

Last edited by tard; 11-12-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

So how do you tune it? Any tips etc
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Old 09-15-2011, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

i tune all my toms the same, finger tight the lugs then at a 1/2 turn at a time i take them to 1 full turn then tap test and tune the reso to the highest pitch lug and the batter to the lowest pitch lug and it works out that the size and depth of each tom gives them nice even steps from the highest tom to the lowest.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

That's more or less what I've been doing, but with not much difference between res and batter. Might explain a few things. Thanks.
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2011, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Buddy Rich tuned his top and bottom heads the same then after playing the top head would stretch giving a slightly lower pitch, i just find it takes a lot longer for the newer heads to stretch so its easier to tune the top head just a bit lower at the start, and it is just a bit lower barley just enough to hear the difference. BTW the heads i use are classic clear resos and studio x batters.
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  #30  
Old 10-06-2011, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Dear friend, you're coming up against a problem that many face, & also fighting against plain physics. 8" toms are little b&^%rds to get right, & even when you do "crack the code", they will never deliver the family soundscape you crave.

I have quite a bit of experience in both tuning & designing 8" toms. Sustain & shell tone are eternal challenges. Put simply, the heads don't have enough mass to offer much in the way of sustain. That's not just a head thickness thing (although increasing head thickness can help sit them in with larger toms), it's a head diameter thing mainly. When you strike a drum head, it's response isn't linear. Waves run across & around the head, almost as if it's a liquid. The close proximity of the edges of an 8" effectively chokes off natural amplification & reaction of those waves.

Even though I say so myself (ahem), I have the best sounding 8" toms I've ever heard, yet I'm not satisfied with them either. An 8" tom should really be regarded as an accent piece, rather than a fully signed up member of the kit tom family. Think in those terms, & your goals will be more in reach. You can help by moving to a heavier single ply head, using the same head both top & bottom, & tuning both heads to exactly the same pitch. 10mil Evans G+ is a good starting point.

Good luck.
Like the explanation but what would you say to someone who bought a DW Jazz kit but won't put coated heads on because he hates the sound of coated heads? Ok... that guy is me... and everyone around me says that a Jazz kit (Maple - Maple gum) should only be played with coated heads otherwise it won't sound good at all... I don't want to spend a fortune trying everything out there... Already I thought I had found what I was hoping for with AmbX heads but... NOT! I know it's a question of tastes but besides that....????
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  #31  
Old 10-16-2011, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Drum sizes and resonance

How deep is it? I had the same problem with my 10"x8" when I got a 10"x7" I had no problem with it.
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