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  #1  
Old 09-08-2011, 05:36 PM
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Default Bass Drume head/tuning?

So I just bought a nice new hi-end kit. Now Iím wondering about how to tune the BD using a stock front head and an Evans emad on the kick side like I've always done.

For years Iíve used a Remo muffle tray/ring behind the front head, just the emad and nothing else. I really donít like putting stuff in the shell like pillows and such since I prefer a more ďwide openĒ sound

Just wondering what everyoneís thoughts were about this arrangement that Iíve been using since 1990Ö Am I killing the BD with what Iíve been doing? Iíve never heard any complaints from users, sound techís, and has always sounded and recorded wellÖ.

Thanks
T
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2011, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Sorry to hear about your bass drum. I have two 22 x 20 bass drums and I am using the stock configuration, and love it. They came with Remo Powerstroke 3s. I use nothing inside my bass drum. The sound is nice and low and punchy. I have the Batter head finger tight, and then half a drum key turn. The reso is finger tip and a quarter turn on the key. It records great, and sounds great live.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojerk View Post
So I just bought a nice new hi-end kit. Now Iím wondering about how to tune the BD using a stock front head and an Evans emad on the kick side like I've always done.

For years Iíve used a Remo muffle tray/ring behind the front head, just the emad and nothing else. I really donít like putting stuff in the shell like pillows and such since I prefer a more ďwide openĒ sound

Just wondering what everyoneís thoughts were about this arrangement that Iíve been using since 1990Ö Am I killing the BD with what Iíve been doing? Iíve never heard any complaints from users, sound techís, and has always sounded and recorded wellÖ.

Thanks
T
If it's been working for you for years and you like the sound, then why change it?

If you like the Remo Muff'l, then stick with it, or you might try the EMAD resonant head. I use the EMAD2 batter with the EMAD resonant and I love the sound of it, mic'ed and unmic'ed.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by BradGunnerSGT View Post
If it's been working for you for years and you like the sound, then why change it?

If you like the Remo Muff'l, then stick with it, or you might try the EMAD resonant head. I use the EMAD2 batter with the EMAD resonant and I love the sound of it, mic'ed and unmic'ed.
Well I've been tuning mine this way so long that I wanna be sure there isn't a better way...

Do you use any muffeling in the shell with your arangemet or are you wide open?
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by turbojerk View Post
Well I've been tuning mine this way so long that I wanna be sure there isn't a better way...
There are many ways to set up a bass drum ... indeed, any drum ... and there's no wrong way, right way, best way, .... it's all about sound ... and what you want the drum to do ...
if you've been setting up your drum the same way, for years ... why not experiment, a little ... especially if you just upgraded .... the way I have my Ludwig kick, is not how I've set up my Recording Custom kick ... is not the way I've set up my Gretsch round badge kick ... they all sound good (hell, they all sound great) ... but they all sound different ...
shared knowledge is a beautiful thing, but when it come to drum tuning, personal experience rules supreme.
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  #6  
Old 09-08-2011, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

I just posted in your other thread...I'll delete it.

"Paste"

My suggestion is the same one I give every time.

A piece of 1" Polyfoam at the bottom of the shell.
Just a small width (spur screws to spur screws is plenty).
It doesn't even have to touch either head.

Tape it down with a bit of packing tape (the kind with the strings in it) on the ends.

No muss, no fuss, it's clean, you don't see it, it doesn't move, and that foam is really inexpensive.

The packing tape doesn't leave residue on the shell (if you want to move it), and it sticks well to foam (most tapes don't).

The foam in there to break up the sound bouncing around, and prevents any possibility of the basketball slap sound from happening--not for muffling. It doesn't inhibit and "resonance" from the drum like a blanket or whatever.

Leave the front head open, or place the foam lightly up against the head to stop any possible buzz/rumble, or to tighten up the sound if you want.

Or, use the tray thing and lose the benefit of the nice bearing edge & solid maple ring that the 3ply shell has....

The stock Ludwig head on the front has a pretty solid, nice sound on the bass drums I have it on. A remo white or Ebony has a touch lower pitch than a Ludwig--even when tensioned higher.

You have an EMad for muting the batter, and like I said, the foam is NOT in the shell for muffling.
It works wonders when the bass drum is mic'd for live or recording, and you can use a smaller 4" mic hole (which even large D112's fit into easily) using as much of a full front head as possible.

Even if someone has two P3 style heads, I'd recommend they use something at the bottom of the drum.
Even one of those Evans EQ Pads work if you can get one/have one (the foam is cheaper), and it doesn't have to touch a head.

If your drum (as is) has been "easy" then of course no one is going to complain, but no one but you is going to "know" your drum, and what it's really capable of.

I just suggested not using the tray thing to get the most you can out of a drum that you paid big bucks for (and has a shell people seek out)--if you like a more wide open sound.

Your drum, do what you like, and what works for you.

I've just fooled around with bass drums A LOT and this method ALWAYS works great. Bass drums for me are like snares for other drummers (have 6)....

If you'd like, PM me, & I can email you a couple songs (with the 20x26) using this method and not even a pre-muffed batter head.

That's my 45 cents... :-)

Good luck, have fun, and happy playing whatever you do.
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  #7  
Old 09-08-2011, 10:16 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Or, use the tray thing and lose the benefit of the nice bearing edge & solid maple ring that the 3ply shell has.

Good luck, and happy playing whatever you do.
Yeah you are 100% correct. I never considered the loss of the bearing edge... Good point!

This is why I started this thread! Good stuff!!

So you think that the stock front BD head would work best unmuffeled when used with the emad and 1" foam? We actually have some 1" armaflex foam here at work. I may try a piece of that junk. I just don't like haveing the stuff in there, but if its the way to go how can I argue...
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Got some...

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  #9  
Old 09-08-2011, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by turbojerk View Post
So you think that the stock front BD head would work best unmuffeled when used with the emad and 1" foam? We actually have some 1" armaflex foam here at work. I may try a piece of that junk. I just don't like haveing the stuff in there, but if its the way to go how can I argue...
Yeah, you can leave the front head open sure--and it has the Holz thing on it already which mutes it a tiny bit too.
The foam can touch the heads too if you want, but I cut mine 2" short of whatever depth the drum is....you have the rings...

Between the rings at the bottom, you won't even notice the foam. Especially if you get a piece of the tan-ish looking stuff.

I get the mental thing of not having anything in there though.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
I just posted in your other thread...I'll delete it.

"Paste"

My suggestion is the same one I give every time.

A piece of 1" Polyfoam at the bottom of the shell.
Just a small width (spur screws to spur screws is plenty).
It doesn't even have to touch either head.

Tape it down with a bit of packing tape (the kind with the strings in it) on the ends.

No muss, no fuss, it's clean, you don't see it, it doesn't move, and that foam is really inexpensive.

The packing tape doesn't leave residue on the shell (if you want to move it), and it sticks well to foam (most tapes don't).

The foam in there to break up the sound bouncing around, and prevents any possibility of the basketball slap sound from happening--not for muffling. It doesn't inhibit and "resonance" from the drum like a blanket or whatever.

Leave the front head open, or place the foam lightly up against the head to stop any possible buzz/rumble, or to tighten up the sound if you want.

Or, use the tray thing and lose the benefit of the nice bearing edge & solid maple ring that the 3ply shell has....

The stock Ludwig head on the front has a pretty solid, nice sound on the bass drums I have it on. A remo white or Ebony has a touch lower pitch than a Ludwig--even when tensioned higher.

You have an EMad for muting the batter, and like I said, the foam is NOT in the shell for muffling.
It works wonders when the bass drum is mic'd for live or recording, and you can use a smaller 4" mic hole (which even large D112's fit into easily) using as much of a full front head as possible.

Even if someone has two P3 style heads, I'd recommend they use something at the bottom of the drum.
Even one of those Evans EQ Pads work if you can get one/have one (the foam is cheaper), and it doesn't have to touch a head.

If your drum (as is) has been "easy" then of course no one is going to complain, but no one but you is going to "know" your drum, and what it's really capable of.

I just suggested not using the tray thing to get the most you can out of a drum that you paid big bucks for (and has a shell people seek out)--if you like a more wide open sound.

Your drum, do what you like, and what works for you.

I've just fooled around with bass drums A LOT and this method ALWAYS works great. Bass drums for me are like snares for other drummers (have 6)....

If you'd like, PM me, & I can email you a couple songs (with the 20x26) using this method and not even a pre-muffed batter head.

That's my 45 cents... :-)

Good luck, have fun, and happy playing whatever you do.
That was more like $10 dollars Canadian. :)
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  #11  
Old 09-08-2011, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Yeah, you can leave the front head open sure--and it has the Holz thing on it already which mutes it a tiny bit too.
The foam can touch the heads too if you want, but I cut mine 2" short of whatever depth the drum is....you have the rings...

Between the rings at the bottom, you won't even notice the foam. Especially if you get a piece of the tan-ish looking stuff.

I get the mental thing of not having anything in there though.
You are referring to the re-rings right?

Well all we have is black and it was free, so back it is... Better than blue or red fo-sho!

My plan is to use very small strips of carpet tape to hold it in place, even though it troubles me put attach anything to that shell.

Last edited by turbojerk; 09-08-2011 at 11:04 PM.
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2011, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by turbojerk View Post
You are referring to the re-rings right?

Well all we have is black and it was free, so back it is... Better than blue or red fo-sho!

My plan is to use very small strips of carpet tape to hold it in place, even though it troubles me put attach anything to that shell.
Yeah, the re-rings.

Free is good! Actually it's best! My motto is AFAP (as free as possible). It's worked well as a motto haha!
Tiny strips of that tape in each corner should hold it.
I use a coated head, so never see the foam in mine, but I bet in a day you'll never notice it anymore.

Good luck, play with the tensions & keep posted!
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Old 09-09-2011, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

So I did everything, but the front head sounds kinda gongie to me....

http://www.facebook.com/video/video....46564588&saved
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  #14  
Old 09-09-2011, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Different types of foam have different absorbency factors at different frequencies. Yours seems to be pretty dense in structure. Depending on their use, this is stated as NRC, "noise reduction coefficients" . For example ratings of .75 to .80 is highly absorbent at certain frequencies. I'm just referring to this because not all foam is alike.

Dennis
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Old 09-09-2011, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

its pretty spongy stuff...?
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2011, 05:59 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Well you ignored me earlier but I will try again. Two PS3s. Nothing inside. All good. :)
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:01 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Well you ignored me earlier but I will try again. Two PS3s. Nothing inside. All good. :)
Sorry but I already have an emad.
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Sorry but I already have an emad.
So change it. You want it to sound good right? Or you can keep tying to make your Emad sound good. Up to you. :)
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
So change it. You want it to sound good right?
At almost $50 I think not and the Emad is a good kick head. I hear waht you are saying but I've aready invested in what I have so I'm going to try and make it work.
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Old 09-09-2011, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

I listened to the clip.
You need to take the room you're in into consideration too (you already know that).

The patch you have on there is giving you more high end than what you want to hear.

The boom of the drum would get soaked up with a band, but work great through a PA with the total band sound.
I'd place the foam up against the head just a touch, just to tighten up the tone.

Yeah, it's a pain to mess with this kinda stuff, but when you get it set, it's worth it.

I couldn't tell which side of the beater you use (felt/plastic) but I use a piece of cut coated head and tape it around the edges. I hate beater "click", and a real top end slap.
I just want a full, natural sound, with solid punch.
The coated head piece gives the hit not as "hard" a sounding smack, but a powerful punch.

This is one of the reasons I don't dig too many pre-muffed heads because for me they get that mid-range slap sound. The only one that doesn't is an Evans EQ1, or a Coated PS3. other people get good results and love them.
They always have a clear PS3 head on the bass drums at the festivals I've played, and they sound cool through a PA, but behind the drum, I just don't like the sound.

The foam I have is pretty spongy too. Maybe it's the same stuff you have? It's not "wet blanket" spongy, but it's mushier than regular foam sheets I've had in the past.
They called it Polyfoam at the foam place, but it could be called other things.

One other thing, don't be overly concerned about all the lugs ending up perfectly in tune with one another. Mess with them from the seat for which ones are higher when you play the drum, and sometimes he two bottom ones work better when they are a bit tighter.
I said ending up perfectly in tune. Start as close as possible, but go for sound and feel.
The front will need to be tweaked too (obviously haha!) and if there are no toms over it, you can just reach over the drum and play with tensions.

Sounds pretty cool so far though, and a more open sound is something that took me a day or so to get used to also.

This is long enough, or I'd tell the story about how I arrived at what I do now.... I'll save everyone from my droll blahbity blah.
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Old 09-09-2011, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

I have one more "old skewl" trick up my sleave to calm down the front head a bit. I'll post pic's of what the will be later tonight for everyone's review and criticism...
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  #22  
Old 09-09-2011, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drum head/tuning?

Don't tell me an old Deadringer foam ring. That's all I can think of besides shredded newspaper (PITA though)!
A felt strip is too easy a guess haha!

The Deadringers actually worked really well if they weren't right at the edge of the head/shell.

Big, fat sound, and open too, with out any "boing" if you tensioned tighter.
Pretty much an EMad without the tray holding the ring in.

I think Yamaha has a product for marching bass drums that is that stuff. Kinda like extra wide stick on foam weather stripping.

Just a stab in the dark!
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drum head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Don't tell me an old Deadringer foam ring. That's all I can think of besides shredded newspaper (PITA though)!
A felt strip is too easy a guess haha!

The Deadringers actually worked really well if they weren't right at the edge of the head/shell.

Big, fat sound, and open too, with out any "boing" if you tensioned tighter.
Pretty much an EMad without the tray holding the ring in.

I think Yamaha has a product for marching bass drums that is that stuff. Kinda like extra wide stick on foam weather stripping.

Just a stab in the dark!
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Stick on foam weather stripping. I used if for years before we had the Emad's and Super kick's etc. I may even take out the 1" foam that I just put in if all goes as planned.
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  #24  
Old 09-13-2011, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?









VIDEO
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  #25  
Old 09-13-2011, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Looks good! The White is a lot nicer than those old Black Deadringers.

Sounds a bit deeper with the ring, but there's still a slap sound from the beater on the patch. Could be the room--can't tell what your ears actually hear from a vid.
It probably sounds full and massive.
If you run it through a PA, you'll dial in or out what you want anyway, so if it sounds cool to you, then it's great.

Now you can make your own EMad/PS3 type, and save money by buying a regular head!
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Looks good! The White is a lot nicer than those old Black Deadringers.

Sounds a bit deeper with the ring, but there's still a slap sound from the beater on the patch. Could be the room--can't tell what your ears actually hear from a vid.
It probably sounds full and massive.
If you run it through a PA, you'll dial in or out what you want anyway, so if it sounds cool to you, then it's great.

Now you can make your own EMad/PS3 type, and save money by buying a regular head!
Yeah it was deeper before and honestly I liked it better. I have no idea how to get rid of the slap. It's a standard felt-faced mallet in the kick pedal...
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  #27  
Old 09-14-2011, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Quick question turbojerk, Did your drum shop or their distributor allow you to hold onto your current bass drum while rectifying your problem?

Dennis
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  #28  
Old 09-14-2011, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Should I mention the two PS3s again, or do you want to keep working with what you have.
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  #29  
Old 09-14-2011, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

It's the beater patch you have.

A clear PS3 will give the same slap if it has that type of patch on it.
A COATED wouldn't (on this shell), but a clear will.

With 2 ringed heads, YOU hear a lower tone behind the kit, but inside the drum, you're getting more mids and not a balance of high, mid and lows. AND you can get the dreaded "basketball" sound from mic in a totally open, smooth cylinder.

So, I still recommend the foam in the bottom and a un-muffed front head. But people can do what they want, and it depends on where you're playing too.
It's different for "at home" playing, and a live setting with a PA and whatnot.

I just know it works for me (on any drum I've done it on), and it takes less than a minute at shows for a FOH to get my drum "dialed in" (and it's a 20x26 on top of it) and we aren't getting pimped for sound checks. I've gotten "I'm in love" from one sound guy, and the mad scientist grins from a few others when they hear it.

When we recorded, it took no time at all to get the drum sounds--and it sounds really cool (if I do say so myself!). I'd put up a song, but for some reason they don't seem to take.

Blahbityblahblah...the foam and plain front head works.

I sent you a PM about the patch Turbo.

Stick is going to get a totally different sound and reaction to tuning because of the Saturn shells.
His bass drums DO sound real nice (check out his site). But it's a different shell with more low end "built in", so any "smack" of a beater is going to sound a little fuller than a regular Maple shell. Plus, I think his shells are also 20" deep (and that's the "magic" depth for me) which gets a softer audible beater smack compared to a shorter shell within the total BD sound.

Sorry if this was long--not trying to be a dick or anything.
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Old 09-14-2011, 02:58 AM
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
It's the beater patch you have.

A clear PS3 will give the same slap if it has that type of patch on it.
A COATED wouldn't (on this shell), but a clear will.

With 2 ringed heads, YOU hear a lower tone behind the kit, but inside the drum, you're getting more mids and not a balance of high, mid and lows. AND you can get the dreaded "basketball" sound from mic in a totally open, smooth cylinder.

So, I still recommend the foam in the bottom and a un-muffed front head. But people can do what they want, and it depends on where you're playing too.
It's different for "at home" playing, and a live setting with a PA and whatnot.

I just know it works for me (on any drum I've done it on), and it takes less than a minute at shows for a FOH to get my drum "dialed in" (and it's a 20x26 on top of it) and we aren't getting pimped for sound checks. I've gotten "I'm in love" from one sound guy, and the mad scientist grins from a few others when they hear it.

When we recorded, it took no time at all to get the drum sounds--and it sounds really cool (if I do say so myself!). I'd put up a song, but for some reason they don't seem to take.

Blahbityblahblah...the foam and plain front head works.

I sent you a PM about the patch Turbo.

Stick is going to get a totally different sound and reaction to tuning because of the Saturn shells.
His bass drums DO sound real nice (check out his site). But it's a different shell with more low end "built in", so any "smack" of a beater is going to sound a little fuller than a regular Maple shell. Plus, I think his shells are also 20" deep (and that's the "magic" depth for me) which gets a softer audible beater smack compared to a shorter shell within the total BD sound.

Sorry if this was long--not trying to be a dick or anything.
Sorry. Not trying to be a pain. It just worked out so simple with my bass drums. I know they are all not going to be the same. By the way, don't say you like the deep bass drum out loud. The other folks won't like that. :)
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  #31  
Old 09-14-2011, 04:14 AM
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KarlCrafton KarlCrafton is offline
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Sorry. Not trying to be a pain. It just worked out so simple with my bass drums. I know they are all not going to be the same. By the way, don't say you like the deep bass drum out loud. The other folks won't like that. :)
Yeah, I know haha!

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Old 09-14-2011, 05:00 PM
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turbojerk turbojerk is offline
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
Quick question turbojerk, Did your drum shop or their distributor allow you to hold onto your current bass drum while rectifying your problem?

Dennis
Yeah there was no problem with me using it while in between. Really though what other option do they have? I have other kits to back me up in my case but I'm sure that some people only have one. They can't expect anyone to sit on ther duff for 6-8 weeks waiting on a replacement...
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:06 PM
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turbojerk turbojerk is offline
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Default Re: Bass Drume head/tuning?

Just FYI,

I played my first gig with this kit last night. I had my Son do the sound check and the bass sounded like a CANNON right out of the gate! I'm REAL pleased with it and the sound tech had nothing but good things to say about my tuning on the whole kit... He actually said that he did very little knob twisting with my kit vs. the 2 other kits used last night.
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