DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Off Topic Lounge

Off Topic Lounge All Discussions Not Related To Drumming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #201  
Old 04-09-2011, 07:08 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Well Ken, at least they were new when you were the right age. I feel slightly embarrassed admitting that I like them because they're so often retrospectively grouped in with bands that I really do not like at all. People then decide to make assumptions about my musical taste - but this is all retrospective. I don't like a lot of music from the 70's - and I like their 60's stuff and 'The Final Cut', so it's not exclusively 70's - but I really do like Pink Floyd. My Dad is a big fan and used to always play them in the car when I was very small. Somewhere he has the cassettes that he used to play. Lots of memories there from being really very, very small.
Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 04-09-2011, 07:44 PM
Hellwyck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

For modern metal protest songs, look no further than our own ginger whinger...

Mr. Dave Mustaine

Megadeth have written songs foretelling the world's future and giving shit to those who drag it down for years.


Rust In Peace... Polaris
- Ode to nuclear missles

Holy Wars (The Punishment Due)
Self explainitary, really... Making religion the scapegoat for worldwide slaughter.

Peace Sells
Cold war politics

United Abominations
Written about how peace talks have f**ked up with the war on terror
Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 04-09-2011, 10:00 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Well Ken, at least they were new when you were the right age. I feel slightly embarrassed admitting that I like them because they're so often retrospectively grouped in with bands that I really do not like at all. People then decide to make assumptions about my musical taste - but this is all retrospective. I don't like a lot of music from the 70's - and I like their 60's stuff and 'The Final Cut', so it's not exclusively 70's - but I really do like Pink Floyd. My Dad is a big fan and used to always play them in the car when I was very small. Somewhere he has the cassettes that he used to play. Lots of memories there from being really very, very small.
When I was your age, I would have felt the same way. It is strange to me that there is so much nostalgia for 1970s music among the young. I went to see a NY deejay Eddie Trunk the other day at a book signing and there was a man there with his teenage son. Of course, the first thing he says to me is "the music today is garbage." Like that wasn't predictible; and then regals me about the good old days listening to Alice Cooper, Zeppelin and Kiss while his father yelled to turn the music down. Of course the man is deaf in one ear and 50% in the other. Is there a conncetion? Talk about crap.

Ultimately, I opened up to alot of musis over the years, and learned to hear it and take it for what it is, rather than trying to be overly critical about its aesthitic value. But I have met quite a few peole who claim that life is short and ask why listen to anything but great music? As a music and a historican I try to listen to as much music as possible from an historcal perspective. Other than that, why listen to anything that doesn't float your boat.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 04-09-2011, 10:07 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I don't think it's an aesthetic thing. I think it's because of the 'me too' saturation factor as much as anything else. The first time I really heard Led Zeppelin, I was fourteen. I loved it, I thought it was great. I listened to them intermittently for years and then it reached a critical mass when I realised that it was like wallpaper. It was everywhere, all the time and I couldn't get away from it. That really frustrated me and put me right off them for a while. Now, I can appreciate it - but I don't enjoy it viscerally like I used to. That's got as much to do with the 'me too' attitude of a lot of crap bands ever since (once again, I reference Wolfmother) and the fact that it's lauded over ad nauseam.

It doesn't make them a bad band - it just makes them overexposed. And that really kills a lot of music for me.
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 04-10-2011, 04:40 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,660
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Of course, the first thing he says to me is "the music today is garbage." Like that wasn't predictible; and then regals me about the good old days listening to Alice Cooper, Zeppelin and Kiss while his father yelled to turn the music down. Of course the man is deaf in one ear and 50% in the other. Is there a conncetion? Talk about crap..
I never got the Kiss thing.

Somehow in the 70's, I was just a hair too young. Some older kids had the comic and the action figure, so I equated them as characters, and it wasn't until later I realized there was music behind it all.

When I got to PIT, I was surrounded by people who all said they were originally inspired to pick up an instrument by Kiss. So I would go the school's video library and watch Kiss videos for hours, trying to figure out what I missing. I still didn't get it. Peter is a bit sloppy. Gene isn't locking with the drums, and the rhythm guitar isn't locking in with anyone. huh?

So yeah, if someone says music isn't as good as it used to be, and uses Kiss as a reference point, I just have to groan.

Still, I have friends who just worship that band. To each his own I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Led Zeppelin,

It doesn't make them a bad band - it just makes them overexposed. And that really kills a lot of music for me.
I like Zep, but I don't feel inspired to own their albums, because they're always on the radio. The hits, the b-sides, the rarities, my local classic rock radio stations play it all on a regular basis.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 04-10-2011, 06:12 AM
drummaman1's Avatar
drummaman1 drummaman1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 176
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
1) There wasn't a lot of traditional singing going on here. It was a combination of talking, shouting back and forth, and chanting (usually ad nauseum).

2) All the vocals were heavily modified using echo, compression and whatever that program is that they use to modulate and alter the tone (Cher used it on Do You Believe in Love). The "computerized" voices grated on me after about 2 minutes.

3) The songs had no real structure to them. There was no intro, verse, chorus, middle eight, chorus, out, etc. Seemed like the repitiion goes on until the engineer decides to fade out the end of the song. I imagine this is because the primary reason for these songs is to dance to in a club or a party. The way we danced in the 70's/80's bears no resemblance to how you would dance to this music.

4) Out of about 20 songs, I only found one that sounded like it had real drums in it. The rest had clicks, snaps, and real loud bass booms that kept the beat. Some synthesizers (sampling, no doubt), no piano, no guitar.
1. Correct. Like all those great nursery rhymes we learned when we were kids. Add some sports crowd chanting, and you're pretty much on track.

2. Auto-Tune. It makes the hairs on my neck stand on end. The thought going through my head when I hear an artist with Auto-Tune is: are they going for the effect, or is that "singer" so off, they're just there because they can then market the music to tween boys/girls?

3. The form of hip-hop songs these days is thus:

the chorus, or these days called "the hook" followed by a "verse"
then the hook again, then another verse
then the hook, then another verse, or some cases a bridge
then the hook, usually twice, and fade usually, so the DJ can beat cut one tempo into the next as a seamless transition

4. Correct. And if it's not synthesized drums, it's "sound replacement." Basically you can take, for ex. Steve Gadd hitting a drum once. Then a different drum. Then a snare. Take all of those samples and arrange them electronically. Voila! You have Steve Gadd on your track, and he never physically played one note of your song. And you did not have to pay him triple scale to play the session. In addition to Gadd, I believe there is Vinnie, JR Robinson, Russ MIller, Chad Wackerman sound replacement kits. Sound samples with these drummers just playing drums and some grooves, and insert to your hearts content.

Sounds kinda scary, doesn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 04-10-2011, 10:37 PM
classicstar's Avatar
classicstar classicstar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 314
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomstick View Post
Simply put, today's pop music has no soul.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's al about sex and drinking, and if not that, it appeals to teenagers because if it isn't sex or clubbing or drinking, it's "love". LOVE DOES NOT EXIST WHEN YOU ARE 14 YEARS OLD. YOU CANNOT LOVE SOMEONE AFTER DATING THEM FOR 3 WEEKS. I'm so sick of seeing sophomores and Juniors in high school getting engaged after only knowing each other for one month. No wonder my generation of women is so clingy, obsessive and annoying.

/rant
__________________
Tama ~ Evans ~ Vater ~ Meinl
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 04-10-2011, 10:44 PM
Buddy Rich of Metal's Avatar
Buddy Rich of Metal Buddy Rich of Metal is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Pop Music? That's an oxymoron...
__________________
"Now, get outta my f***in' bus!"
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 04-11-2011, 04:07 AM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,579
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I can remember in middle school my older brother and his three friends dressing up as KISS for Halloween. I didn't really understand what it was all about, since I was only about 12 or 13. I never did really understand the draw of KISS, although they did have a few catchy songs..

I went through a period in high school/college where I was really into Zep. But I eventually burned out from them, and got sick of hearing them everywhere. Nowadays I do still appreciate them, but mostly their less common stuff. Just today I hear Whole Lotta Love on the radio and had to turn the station. I can't stand to listen to Stairway for the 10,000th time. I do still like listening to songs like Good Times, Bad Times.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 04-11-2011, 04:18 AM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
I don't think it's an aesthetic thing. I think it's because of the 'me too' saturation factor as much as anything else. The first time I really heard Led Zeppelin, I was fourteen. I loved it, I thought it was great. I listened to them intermittently for years and then it reached a critical mass when I realised that it was like wallpaper. It was everywhere, all the time and I couldn't get away from it. That really frustrated me and put me right off them for a while. Now, I can appreciate it - but I don't enjoy it viscerally like I used to. That's got as much to do with the 'me too' attitude of a lot of crap bands ever since (once again, I reference Wolfmother) and the fact that it's lauded over ad nauseam.

It doesn't make them a bad band - it just makes them overexposed. And that really kills a lot of music for me.
Me too. If I listen to any Zep today (which is not too often), it's songs like In The Light, No Quarter, Tangerine, Out on the Tiles, In My Time of Dying and others that were never played over ad nauseum on the radio. In Texas, back in the 1960s and early 1970s we actually got underground radio from Mexico that played complete albums and very cutting edge artists that were never played on pop stations in the states. They called it outlaw radio like what Jim Morrison sang about, but soon the radios in the states caught on and started what they called "album rock". Many of them mimicked the outlaw stations and played very cutting edge music. One I used to listen to played Kraftwerk's Autobahn album regularly back in 1975, which was unusual - a German language album broadcast in the cactus and mesquites of South Texas, lol. But it was these stations that developed cult followings that the old time producers never understood, and like Zappa said in his interview that was up earlier in this thread, a bunch of younger hippie generation so called experts took the management of these stations over and they started playing a lot of singles off of what used to be an entire album. This was when I recall hearing a lot of Zeppelin (Black Dog, Rock and Roll, etc) getting played over and over again. But this was when it seemed that a lot of what were album artists like Zep, Pink Floyd, ELP, Clapton in all of his forms, Jethro Tull, etc literally started to saturate the rock market and transformed from being innovative artists to pop artists. Queen went into that movement head first, and they went from rock anthems like Great King Rat, Keep Yourself Alive, and Liar to pop songs like We Are The Champions and Fat Bottomed Girls. Artists like the Rolling Stones and Elton John were always content being on Pop radio, but these guys were literally dragged into it, as those album rock stations evolved into pop stations. KISS came along at the end of the arena rock era, like Pete Frampton, and I always kind of considered them the forefathers of the Big Hair Rock era.
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 04-11-2011, 12:53 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
When I was your age, I would have felt the same way. It is strange to me that there is so much nostalgia for 1970s music among the young.
It begs the question as to whether there are qualities of music that are universal rather than culturally subjective. Personally, I think there are.

Sometimes the cultural differences can be a bridge too far, but a great sound is still a great sound and I'm sure a beautifully played groove can be recognised by most of us here, no matter what flavour. When music is played with passion, honesty and soul it is, as the cliche goes, the universal language. Those who don't really care for music, like my father, will only enjoy the music of their youth and detest everything since, but music lovers tend to span a pretty wide range.

Perhaps some young 'uns who have mostly been exposed to soulless business-minded pop find that some of their parents' records hit the spot more than what they hear on the radio? My 19 yo nephew doesn't care for old music, but he loves Pink Floyd.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 04-11-2011, 01:43 PM
Liebe zeit's Avatar
Liebe zeit Liebe zeit is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sheffield, UK
Posts: 688
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Why single out today's pop music? Go look at the chart for any week in the past few decades and most tunes in it will be utterly awful
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:19 PM
JT1's Avatar
JT1 JT1 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bedlington, UK
Posts: 731
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeysnare View Post
i don't care if i get flamed for this. pop music is garbage , nuff said.

if you disagree then watch rebecca blacks video called "friday"
Joey hit the nail on the head, perhaps a more refined 'modern pop music is garbage' would have been better but I wholeheartedly agree.
__________________
Totally addicted to BASS....drum...pedals
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:24 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liebe zeit View Post
Why single out today's pop music? Go look at the chart for any week in the past few decades and most tunes in it will be utterly awful
True, but it's a matter of degree. Today's pop scene is a lot more savvy - the producers have the formulas of success worked out to a fine art.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:45 PM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Today's pop scene is a lot more savvy - the producers have the formulas of success worked out to a fine art.
Surely you jest. I think they have it worked out more like a fine trainwreck. The music is horrible, there are but a handful of talented vocalists, and the melody and ryhthm parts sound like they were programmed by a K-12 student. Do we call this progress? No wonder so many kids (mine included) are into the late 60s and 70s music.
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:54 PM
wy yung's Avatar
wy yung wy yung is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,979
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

As far as I know there is no "fine art" to success. At no point in recorded history has this been true. Ry Cooder had no idea his Buenna Vista project would pay off. Nor did many motion picture producers know their endeavours would flop, or make it.

The formula for success. What a product that would be!

It has never, and will never exist.
__________________
" Those who know, do not speak.
Those who speak, do not know."
Lao Tzu
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 04-11-2011, 03:17 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Pretty young person
Dance moves
Autotune
Groovy drum machine
Rapping
The Hook
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 04-11-2011, 03:31 PM
wy yung's Avatar
wy yung wy yung is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,979
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Pretty young person
Dance moves
Autotune
Groovy drum machine
Rapping
The Hook
How does that apply the Ry Cooder's project?

There is no recipe for success. The trend in today's pop scene, whether it music or film, is for "pretty young things", but for every success there are thousands of losers.

Any formula for success that could be sold would be worth billions. It has yet to show itself. And dare I say with an eye to history, it never will.
__________________
" Those who know, do not speak.
Those who speak, do not know."
Lao Tzu
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 04-11-2011, 03:33 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
It begs the question as to whether there are qualities of music that are universal rather than culturally subjective. Personally, I think there are.

Sometimes the cultural differences can be a bridge too far, but a great sound is still a great sound and I'm sure a beautifully played groove can be recognized by most of us here, no matter what flavour. When music is played with passion, honesty and soul it is, as the cliche goes, the universal language. Those who don't really care for music, like my father, will only enjoy the music of their youth and detest everything since, but music lovers tend to span a pretty wide range.

Perhaps some young 'uns who have mostly been exposed to soulless business-minded pop find that some of their parents' records hit the spot more than what they hear on the radio? My 19 yo nephew doesn't care for old music, but he loves Pink Floyd.
In the 1970s, there was a lot of 1950s nostalgia that came in the form of of punk and new wave but even bigger artists like Meatloaf, Bruce Springsteen and then came the jump blues and rockabilly of Rockpile, Stray Cats, Joe Jackson and The Smiths. But as compared to the more innovative music of Crimson, Yes, Steely Dan or Floyd, it all seemed a bit tired though by many it was considered real rock n roll. Crimson, ELP or Yes weren't. Maybe it was the more well produced or electronic sounds over the raw sound of early rock and roll that I enjoyed. On CD it's a whole different story and you can even understand the words in those earlier songs. I always did have a thing for Jump Blues artists like Stray Cats and Joe Jackson. Stray Cats are from my hometown and Joe Jackson was always great.


It's just that there is some good pop out there for teenagers to listen too. is someone really going to laud Kiss and say Avenged Sevenfold is okay but doesn't have good songs? (Yes, Ian, he said that.) there are so many melodic metal bands like Disturbed, After Forever, Within Temptation, a lot of them from N. Europe, that's where it 's happening. There are many of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVrU2...eature=related

As Bermuda stated, it's about the songs, and whether at the end of the day the songs are any good.There are still good song writers around like John Mayer, Ryan Adams or Josh Ritter, Gavin MacGraw. Some of those reference might be a bit outdated; but I bet that a lot of the older folks haven't listened to them any way. I remember there was a kid on her a while back and the older guys made fun of him for liking Jason Mraz. Whose the idiot?

Then there was the whole resurgence of progressive rock in the early 2000s with Tool, Spock's Beard and Flower Kings. Are people ware that these things are happening or have happened?
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 04-11-2011, 03:41 PM
wy yung's Avatar
wy yung wy yung is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,979
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I think there are many fine works of art that were bypassed by the wider public. How many people today listen to Madona but have never read Sophocles?

To base a value upon artistic merit based solely on public appetite is, in a word, base.

Popular culture often is not based in a so called "value". Often it can be viewed as a herd movement based in access to the so called artistic work.
__________________
" Those who know, do not speak.
Those who speak, do not know."
Lao Tzu
Reply With Quote
  #221  
Old 04-11-2011, 07:23 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,660
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
I have to admit that the 90's were a musical black hole for me, especially in terms of rock n roll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
In the 1970s, there was a lot of 1950s nostalgia that came in the form of of punk and new wave
And in the 80's, there was a big interest in 60's music. Into the 90's, we suddenly saw everything about the 70's be cool again.

And 80's music just continues to be considered cool.
I'm always amazed how many people who were too young or not born yet to have experienced the 80's, yet know every band and every song that was popular back then. And in the last 10 years, we've seen a lot of band who fully embraced and reproduced the 80's new wave vibe see success. As much cheese as their was in the 80's, it seems to be a golden era of music to so many people.

And lately, I've even noticed the high school kids wearing 80's type clothing.

I recall in the 90's, listening to grunge take over the radio, and thinking, yeah, but in 10-20 years, will be look back on this fondly with the same sense of nostalgia people give to the 50-80s? I didn't think so.

To an extent, I've been proven right and proven wrong. VH-1 did an "all 90's weekend" this past weekend, and there are numerous cover bands that focus on the 90's. But at the same time, one local radio station did an all 80's weekend this past weekend, and it seems all 80's features on the radio are way more common. 80's cover bands seem to be more abundant than 90's focused bands.

And despite this past weekends look at the 90's, it does seem the vast majority of programing on vh-1 and vh-1 classic is focussed on the 70s and 80s.

I just don't see teenagers looking at back at the 90's and thinking " yeah, it was so much cooler then, when everyone wore flannel and did heroin"

But perhaps that is all just my biased opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
. is someone really going to laud Kiss and say Avenged Sevenfold is okay but doesn't have good songs? (Yes, Ian, he said that.)
Eh, well, I think Avenged Sevenfold only really has one good album. I own a bunch of them, but there is only one I like.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
there are so many melodic metal bands like Disturbed, After Forever, Within Temptation, a lot of them from N. Europe, that's where it 's happening. There are many of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVrU2...eature=related
Yes, as I have said in numerous threads, 99% of the albums I've bought in the last few years have been from European bands who have little to no following in the US.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Then there was the whole resurgence of progressive rock in the early 2000s with Tool, Spock's Beard and Flower Kings. Are people ware that these things are happening or have happened?
I think that had more to do with the internet than anything. Tool was already popular. The rest were there, but the net gave them an outlet.

In the 90's Dream Theater really embraced the internet. Back in the days when most people only had AOL, you could go to the Dream Theater AOL board, and Mike Porntoy and then keyboardist Derek Sheridian would actually post and reply to posts from fans, as well as Mike's sister and their ex-vocalist. They helped build a huge network of online prog fans. A lot of prog musicians said wow, I can actually do this music and find an audience now. Where as before they would have limited to just playing in their living rooms.

But still, it's not like those prog bands sell millions (Tool being the exception). Most of them just get by.
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 04-11-2011, 09:24 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,579
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

KC and the Sunshine Band was a pop hit machine back in the late 70s. Three Dog Night was the same in the early 70s. Hall & Oates was the same in the late 70s/early 80s. I try to listen to their songs objectively to see how they compare to the pop hits made over the last 5 years.

There isn't a whole lot to compare, although KC's formula for success consisted of a very simple song structure, lots of repetition, a few horns, and a danceable groove. I'd still rather listen to a song like Boogie Shoes than most of today's pop songs.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 04-11-2011, 11:18 PM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I hate to again bring up Zappa's youtube video interview posted earlier in this thread, but much of what he said is so true. Today, the music industry is run by so called experts that grab a pretty face and build the (very simplistic, automated) music behind them. They think they are building a Mona Lisa, but it is really a Frankenstein in disguise. The old pop artists that were not one hit wonders were from the old school producers that just said hell, we don't know if it will work, but let's throw it out there and see.

I see this as the whole problem with the music business - it is completely opposite the rest of the arts. Imagine if we had a bunch of self proclaimed art experts deciding what we wanted to look at? Where would all the Picassos and Van Goghs be right now? Imagine if Van Gogh turned in Starry Night to an art wholesaler who in turn began to cut up the canvas to fit it into a smaller slot so that he could display more paintings, and repaint segments that he thought would not please the masses. This is where we are in the music business today. Music has lost it's value as an art, that is why it is dying.
Reply With Quote
  #224  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:44 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post

I recall in the 90's, listening to grunge take over the radio, and thinking, yeah, but in 10-20 years, will be look back on this fondly with the same sense of nostalgia people give to the 50-80s? I didn't think so.

In the 90's Dream Theater really embraced the internet. Back in the days when most people only had AOL, you could go to the Dream Theater AOL board, and Mike Porntoy and then keyboardist Derek Sheridian would actually post and reply to posts from fans, as well as Mike's sister and their ex-vocalist. They helped build a huge network of online prog fans. A lot of prog musicians said wow, I can actually do this music and find an audience now. Where as before they would have limited to just playing in their living rooms.

But still, it's not like those prog bands sell millions (Tool being the exception). Most of them just get by.

Many of those Brooklyn bands are very 80s new wavish. I kind of missed the boat on that.

In the 1990s, I really started to get into classical musical. But I always found something on the pop dial that was interesting. k.d Lang was just on Leno tonight. I remember she her several great albums before giving up on music and then rediscovering herself with Tony. There was also Sarah Maclachlan and Natalie Merchant who I like. Lots of women's music. I remember an Aussie band called Dead Can Dance. I've seen Lisa Gerrard a few times live and she is like no other. One of the greatest performers I've ever heard. She didn't come from the 1970s.

I wasn't really a big grunge fan; but I liked the hits and I liked Pearl Jam, STP and then there was Primus and Chili Pepper's. There was a lot of great music, so there will be 1990s nostalgia, although it probably should have started already. Well, maybe it has as your program. I was going to listen to some of that but forgot. There would probably be another dozen artists that I enjoyed listening to from the 1990s if I though about it Marc Cohn, Beck, Elliot Smith, Jeff Buckley (he died) I lived in Oakland at the time and the college kids would journey down to LA to see Smashing Pumpkins. It meant something to them.

I used to be a member of the DT and Flower Kings groups. The reason I brought up the prog movement was because these musical movements die out when there is nobody there to support it. and then you have these 40-50 something talking about crap in the business. But they've not listened to so much music. If all you listened to was Capt and Tennille in the 70s, Thompson Twins in the 80s and Hanson in the 90s, you may get a skewed picture.

I am not going to defend a lot of the BS in the industry. it is what it is. But there is a lot of diversity if you go out and find it. Seems people are too lazy to do that, so they get Rebecca Black. You can blame it all on the execs; but if you haven't taken the time to find the quality, or to open up to something new, that is part of the problem.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 04-12-2011, 11:36 AM
Hellwyck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
This is where we are in the music business today. Music has lost it's value as an art, that is why it is dying.
Someone else posting what I've already said... I bet this gets a reply tho'
Reply With Quote
  #226  
Old 04-12-2011, 03:02 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,579
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
Today, the music industry is run by so called experts that grab a pretty face and build the (very simplistic, automated) music behind them. They think they are building a Mona Lisa, but it is really a Frankenstein in disguise. The old pop artists that were not one hit wonders were from the old school producers that just said hell, we don't know if it will work, but let's throw it out there and see.
How else do you explain Tom Petty, Steve Perry and Mick Jagger? Not pretty faces, by any means....
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #227  
Old 04-12-2011, 03:06 PM
Hellwyck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I wwouldn't call Steve Perry "ugly"
Reply With Quote
  #228  
Old 04-12-2011, 03:59 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,660
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
How else do you explain Tom Petty, Steve Perry and Mick Jagger? Not pretty faces, by any means....
Well, he said "today" not "yesterday".

All them were signed when labels were still run by music people, and A/R had long term goals.

The fist three Journey albums bombed. The didn't have a hit until their 4th album, they never made a profit until their 5th album, and didn't become mega stars until their 7th studio album.

Today that would never happen. If your fist album bombs, you usually get kicked off the label. No label would put up with three bombs in a row, and still let the band make a 4th.

Yet, the only reason bands like Journey, Fleetwood Mac, Rush and many others became mega sellers is because they were allowed to make flops to develop their sound. Labels used to sign bands with long term goals of so many albums before they expected a return.
But since the late 80's, early 90's, all that went out the window. You either break on your first album, or get the hell off the label.
Reply With Quote
  #229  
Old 04-12-2011, 05:06 PM
Zeus Mutation Zeus Mutation is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 103
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I thougt the term "Pop Music" referred to ... "Popular Music", clearly its not the first or last word we butcher the use of... I mean we still think there are different races of Humans... when in fact Human is the ONLY race of people thats ever been, maybe ever will be, unless Alien life is out there...

So how to clarify Pop music versus whats not Popular... I don't think Hall & Oats saw themselfs outside of R&B soul but because half the World bought their records and was played in heavy rotation ... they became "Pop Music."

I'm open to a better understanding... and just because we use it doesnt mean its correct.
Reply With Quote
  #230  
Old 04-12-2011, 05:24 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post

Yet, the only reason bands like Journey, Fleetwood Mac, Rush and many others became mega sellers is because they were allowed to make flops to develop their sound. Labels used to sign bands with long term goals of so many albums before they expected a return.
But since the late 80's, early 90's, all that went out the window. You either break on your first album, or get the hell off the label.
It was TV, and MTV in particular. Even the classical composer Ned Rorem said back in the 1980s that tv was going to change classical music the way it did popular music. Whether it is a rock performer or an opera performer once it's televised, they better look pretty.

But the bands you mentioned had many incarnations, Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green and then Bob Welch before they became the big multi-million seller with Buckingham and Nicks. Journey of course was a pseudo prog band before they got Jonathan Cain from the Baby's and Steve Perry. Prog was over. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But these bands changes their sound with changes in pubic taste. Why should a company spend millions promoting a band that isn't selling after three albums? For every Rush or Bruce Springsteen who were given the your number's about up slip and then came back with a hit, there are thousands of acts who never followed up and produced that hit.

A bigger part of the problem is the way record companies measure success. Sony will drop an artist for selling 80,000-150,000 records when for most artists that would be far from failure. But the amount of investment the record company will put up warrants that.

I just picked up Chinese Democracy for 1.99 at Best Buy, which was failure. Best Buy Spent 1.6 million to have an exclusive, bought 1,000,000 units and only sold 600,000. So they are selling 400,000 titles at 2 bucks. Geffen spent near 14 million making it, and never recovered that investment. But listening to the album Axl sounds amazing and the songs seem good on my first few listens. I guess people were expecting another November Rain. It's an example of just how fickle the industry and buying public can be. And the artist.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"

Last edited by Deltadrummer; 04-12-2011 at 05:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #231  
Old 04-12-2011, 06:01 PM
Zeus Mutation Zeus Mutation is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 103
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I foolishly bought that GNR Chinese Democracy... For my taste's the music is first and the singer is second, although a bad singer to my ears will ruin a great band just the same... Axl is fine but there is no magic,imo. November Rain is NOT for me but your point is well taken.
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 04-12-2011, 06:55 PM
Hellwyck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I guess people were expecting another November Rain.
Guns N Roses fans weren't, they were expecting another Locomotive, Don't Damn Me or Nightrain... Proper rock 'n' roll
Reply With Quote
  #233  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:08 PM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
How else do you explain Tom Petty, Steve Perry and Mick Jagger? Not pretty faces, by any means....
I don't think any of those guys were systematically constructed by the industry like a Bieber, Rihanna or Lil Wayne. They were all no different from the rest of their band members when the started out. Although I am not really sure how Petty came about. I think he was a studio musician and eventually got noticed as a good artist in the LA studio scene of the 1970s. None of them were snatched up by record producers and had horribly simplistic automated music built around them, that's for sure.
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:24 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,579
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I don't think any of those guys were systematically constructed by the industry like a Bieber, Rihanna or Lil Wayne. They were all no different from the rest of their band members when the started out. Although I am not really sure how Petty came about. I think he was a studio musician and eventually got noticed as a good artist in the LA studio scene of the 1970s. None of them were snatched up by record producers and had horribly simplistic automated music built around them, that's for sure.
That was exactly my point. They sold a lot of records because their music was good, not because they were "pretty". I can't imagine they would have a very good shot at success in this day and age. Same goes for guys like Getty Lee and Bob Dylan. Bon Jovi is one of the few acts that combined good looks with good music. I think the hair bands of the MTV era changed a lot of this, as people wanted to see the glamour look, where guys did their best to look like girls.

Same goes for politics nowadays. People are looking for rock stars to be their leaders. It's really a sad commentary on society.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 04-12-2011, 10:30 PM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
That was exactly my point. They sold a lot of records because their music was good, not because they were "pretty". I can't imagine they would have a very good shot at success in this day and age. Same goes for guys like Getty Lee and Bob Dylan. Bon Jovi is one of the few acts that combined good looks with good music. I think the hair bands of the MTV era changed a lot of this, as people wanted to see the glamour look, where guys did their best to look like girls.

Same goes for politics nowadays. People are looking for rock stars to be their leaders. It's really a sad commentary on society.
I think Nashville was the first "music machine" to start grabbing a pretty face and teaching them three chords, writing music for them, and then having studio musicians (who they had never seen before in their life) be their so called band. I think this is why Willie Nelson started all that outlaw country stuff in the 1970s, to protest that production line way of treating artists. I think rock music was pretty insulated from that mentality, though there were a slight few pretty faced artists they did try to promote to success in the 1970s, like Gino Vanelli, and Kenny Loggins. Jim Messina was there just to get Kenny Loggins on the top 40, then he was strategically told to leave. But like you point out, it was really in the 80s when that mentality really took off, and funny enough, isn't that the beginning of the one hit wonders? That is when rock and really pop music production began to turn into a real assembly line, with generic sounds and generic images becoming the standard of the day. Image became more important because of MTV.

Yes, actors, rock stars, and pro wrestlers for president/governor is pretty indicative of how gullible and stupid we really are. We just elect the name we have seen in the lights almost regardless of what they stand for. My generation and each one behind it was reared on the boob tube, so is there really any surprise?
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 04-12-2011, 10:32 PM
Stalwart_Pandora-Chris's Avatar
Stalwart_Pandora-Chris Stalwart_Pandora-Chris is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 727
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Speaking of pop music...
Who knows Rebecca Black?
Think she got the idea from this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DwT_2QQU64

Both are extremely bad, but I'd rather listen to Rebecca.......
__________________
Mapex, Sabian, Vic Firth.
Reply With Quote
  #237  
Old 04-13-2011, 01:14 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,660
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
It was TV, and MTV in particular. Even the classical composer Ned Rorem said back in the 1980s that tv was going to change classical music the way it did popular music. Whether it is a rock performer or an opera performer once it's televised, they better look pretty.
MTV changed the types of bands that were getting popular for sure. Duran Duran and Def Leppard, among others, owe their careers to MTV.

But the whole concept of long term investment went out the window when all the various labels started getting bought up and housed under mega-parent corporations, and the parent corporations fired many of the long time music men that had previous run the labels and replaced them with people who's job it was to increase stock holder returns.

To maximize cash values, the labels had to cut their expenses, which meant getting rid of the policy of waiting 3 or 4 albums to see if a band is successful.

While it made good short term business sense, but in the long run, it kills things, because the next "Escape" or "Rumors" never gets made, and there is no hope of seeing the types of albums that sell 8-10 million, and lead to "best of"s that can sell in 100 million copies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I just picked up Chinese Democracy for 1.99 at Best Buy, which was failure. Best Buy Spent 1.6 million to have an exclusive, bought 1,000,000 units and only sold 600,000. So they are selling 400,000 titles at 2 bucks. Geffen spent near 14 million making it, and never recovered that investment. But listening to the album Axl sounds amazing and the songs seem good on my first few listens. I guess people were expecting another November Rain. It's an example of just how fickle the industry and buying public can be. And the artist.
The problem with Chinese Democracy is all those songs were written and recorded in the 90's, and then sat around being re-done over and over again until finally being relased 13 years after they were written.

The album sounded very dated the second it was released, because it reflects a 90's sound. The use of loops, the guitar tones, everything about it was what Rob Zombie, Orgy and Marilyn Manson were doing 10 years ago. It had a very "been there, done that" vibe to it.

And like Hellwyck said, people were expecting rock-n-roll.

And what made Guns famous was the sound of 5 guys bleeding their soul in the music, not countless studio musicians being cut and pasted together.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalwart_Pandora-Chris View Post
Speaking of pop music...
Who knows Rebecca Black?
Think she got the idea from this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DwT_2QQU64

Both are extremely bad, but I'd rather listen to Rebecca.......
Sounds pretty much like the same song, with different lyrics.
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 04-13-2011, 03:41 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
MTV changed the types of bands that were getting popular for sure. Duran Duran and Def Leppard, among others, owe their careers to MTV.

But the whole concept of long term investment went out the window when all the various labels started getting bought up and housed under mega-parent corporations, and the parent corporations fired many of the long time music men that had previous run the labels and replaced them with people who's job it was to increase stock holder returns.

To maximize cash values, the labels had to cut their expenses, which meant getting rid of the policy of waiting 3 or 4 albums to see if a band is successful.

While it made good short term business sense, but in the long run, it kills things, because the next "Escape" or "Rumors" never gets made, and there is no hope of seeing the types of albums that sell 8-10 million, and lead to "best of"s that can sell in 100 million copies.
When you talk to guys over 60, they are going to tell you that music went down hill in 1973 when the mergers happened, and there is some truth to that. The guys at fifty will tell you that it all happened in the 1980s when AOR when to a strict formatted programming, and there is some truth to that. The guys at 40 will say that it happened in the 1990s when they got rid of A and R reps, and there is some truth to that. I've heard younger guys saying it all went out the window when they stopped ding hip-hop old school. But the point I am making is that it all happens when people don't go out there and find music to listen to that they enjoy. Polly was saying how she feels old now because she can't get into the newer music. But truthfully I could expect there was a lot of music in her youth that she didn't really care for. Not all music is meant for everybody. I know that Chris Brown isn't written for me. I am not going to listen to the same music as a 16 year old latina from Spanish Harlem.

What Fleetwood Mac and Journey were able to do was bring in great songwriters. That seems to be generally what they do with bands now, have them sit down with a couple of good songwriters and try to hash out a hit. I like Journey; but many used Journey as a prime example of the failure of 1970s music due to the corporatizing of music. They probably would have said the same of later Fleetwood Mac, esp as compared to the really blues albums, made for guys instead of chicks. There are a lot of deep seated issues that underscore the discussion.

I got tired of pop radio AM in 1971 and FM in 1978, and I stopped complaining about and listened to college radio. I may be a little spoiled living in NY. I went to see an India trio last week with guitar, piano and tabla, got into my car and they were playing Klaus Schultz. I mean where else could radio do that, not spoil my buzz. The other day I got into the car and they were playing Crimson "Islands" and then continued with some great space music, Mahavishnu's Meeting of the Spirits, some more newer spacey music and Neil Young's Old Man. They also segue classical tunes. The problem is they never say what the tunes are.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #239  
Old 04-13-2011, 04:35 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,660
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
When you talk to guys over 60, they are going to tell you that music went down hill in 1973 when the mergers happened, and there is some truth to that. The guys at fifty will tell you that it all happened in the 1980s when AOR when to a strict formatted programming, and there is some truth to that. The guys at 40 will say that it happened in the 1990s when they got rid of A and R reps, and there is some truth to that. I've heard younger guys saying it all went out the window when they stopped ding hip-hop old school. But the point I am making is that it all happens when people don't go out there and find music to listen to that they enjoy. Polly was saying how she feels old now because she can't get into the newer music. But truthfully I could expect there was a lot of music in her youth that she didn't really care for. Not all music is meant for everybody. I know that Chris Brown isn't written for me. I am not going to listen to the same music as a 16 year old latina from Spanish Harlem.

What Fleetwood Mac and Journey were able to do was bring in great songwriters. That seems to be generally what they do with bands now, have them sit down with a couple of good songwriters and try to hash out a hit. I like Journey; but many used Journey as a prime example of the failure of 1970s music due to the corporatizing of music. They probably would have said the same of later Fleetwood Mac, esp as compared to the really blues albums, made for guys instead of chicks. There are a lot of deep seated issues that underscore the discussion.

I got tired of pop radio AM in 1971 and FM in 1978, and I stopped complaining about and listened to college radio. I may be a little spoiled living in NY. I went to see an India trio last week with guitar, piano and tabla, got into my car and they were playing Klaus Schultz. I mean where else could radio do that, not spoil my buzz. The other day I got into the car and they were playing Crimson "Islands" and then continued with some great space music, Mahavishnu's Meeting of the Spirits, some more newer spacey music and Neil Young's Old Man. They also segue classical tunes. The problem is they never say what the tunes are.
All valid points Ken.

Dang, now I have nothing to retort with. We have six pages, can't let this thread die yet!

On new music, yeah, I found a band in Finland, which lead to discovering the main guy behind it all is actually behind numerous projects. He writes and performs in several sub-genres of metal and puts it all out under different band names. He has become a bit of personal hero to me because he plays drums, guitar, bass and keys, and is a great song writer. Not a very good singer, but brings in some great people to fill that out.

Anyway, long story short, I've come to discover this guy making all this great music doesn't make his living from it. He makes a partial living. In the summer he does gardening and landscaping. In the winter, when it's snowing, he writes music.

There is a sadness that he'll probably never be successful enough to quit his day job. But there is an epic beauty that he can write whatever he wants, and get it out there, and his major artistic sacrifice is he has to plant flowers, mow some grass and trim shrubs in the summer.
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 04-13-2011, 02:41 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Not all music is meant for everybody. I know that Chris Brown isn't written for me.
I see this as the crux of the issue. It's hardest if you're not very "normal", a bit quirky or eccentric or whatever, because very little "product" out there is made with you in mind. It's not a problem for me when choosing whitegoods or appliances or a car because that has nothing to do with expression or impression. But music and art ...

In Oz most stations either cater for young people, sports fanatics, grouchy old reactionaries, the latte set or mainstream middle aged people (golden oldies). Love to find a radio station that veered from Klaus Schultz to MO to Crimson to Neil to space music although it might not cut through so well when you have the window open at 60kph.

Thing is, while almost everyone loves music, it's always seems to play a much bigger role in young people's lives before domesticity and mammon consumes their souls. So the industry naturally focuses on the preferences of young 'uns and, especially, their LCD. I wonder, with the ageing populace, if there will be a strong demand for music that entertains retirees once they have the free time again?
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com