DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Gear > Electronic Drums

Electronic Drums All about Electronic Drums

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:45 AM
dkerwood's Avatar
dkerwood dkerwood is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 641
Default The bait and switch: Jazz gig

I was asked a week ago to play in a jazz combo before my church's big Christmas Eve service. We did a couple of rehearsals with me playing on an acoustic kit, so I was using the usual assortment of acoustic snare sounds- cross stick, brushwork, snares off and on... the whole works.

Today I got the call that the worship director decided to go with an electric set for the service, and is totally opposed to any idea of having a second small acoustic set just for the jazz.

So... it appears that I'm going to have to make this work on an electric kit. My only hope is that they'll at least let me change the patches... Any suggestions about playing jazz on an electric kit?
__________________
PEWFLADCC- Conductor of PEWFLADCC Philharmonic and State Steam Locomotive
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:13 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,129
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

I don't see why that wouldn't work. Tommy Igoe does it at the end of this video and it sounds alright.
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:46 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,163
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

More here .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TetZZ...eature=related
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)

Last edited by harryconway; 12-24-2010 at 04:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:54 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,302
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

The cymbals are usually terrible on ekits.

.....
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:18 AM
dkerwood's Avatar
dkerwood dkerwood is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 641
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

Well, I played the sound check. It won't be ideal, but I can make it work. It's a decent kit, I suppose, with a Roland TD-12 powering everything. The biggest issue I had was volume balance. I couldn't get a loud enough hi-hat CHIK in general and on the "Brushes" kit, I could never get the "swooshy" stir sound high enough. Also, man, I forgot how little subtlety the kit has (I used to play one for church before I convinced them to let me use my kit). Forget trying to keep time with brushes. All you get is indistinct white noise. All the cymbals transform from taps to crashes at unrealistically low levels, and the snare's cross stick changes to a rim shot at way too low of a volume. I guess one can get used to it, but I don't have to like it. :)

Since it's somebody else's kit, I don't want to reprogram any of the patches. Do any of the presets have a better "jazz" sound than the "jazz" preset? The bass drum is super super open- much more so than I prefer.

Thoughts?
__________________
PEWFLADCC- Conductor of PEWFLADCC Philharmonic and State Steam Locomotive
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:22 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 10,854
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

I say if they're insisting you play the kit, then you have to make it work. If that means finding different patches to play, then that's what that means. There should be no harm in creating a kit for yourself, especially if you really only need one kit to begin with. I think that's reasonable.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:47 AM
dkerwood's Avatar
dkerwood dkerwood is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 641
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I say if they're insisting you play the kit, then you have to make it work. If that means finding different patches to play, then that's what that means. There should be no harm in creating a kit for yourself, especially if you really only need one kit to begin with. I think that's reasonable.
Well, this is true, but it also involves selecting models, pitching them to taste, setting velocities and levels, EQ-ing, and a whole host of other steps that take longer than I'll have tomorrow. Also since it's somebody else's personal kit, I feel awkward reprogramming anything. Heck, if I could have made it work, I wouldn't have even changed the preset, but I couldn't make the big rock snare work, nor the uber-compressed rock-n-roll kick drum.

Bottom line is that I'll just make it work. I always end up hurting myself playing Roland kits because I overplay... trying to coax a little more volume or rim shots or whatever. I hit the artificial ceiling of the kit and keep hitting harder and harder, until I realize that I'm swinging with full extension. My shoulder is sore just from the sound check! :)
__________________
PEWFLADCC- Conductor of PEWFLADCC Philharmonic and State Steam Locomotive
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-24-2010, 08:04 AM
bryanmurr's Avatar
bryanmurr bryanmurr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 152
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

I feel bad for you. Its hard to have to adapt to a different instrument esp going from an acoustic kit to a e-kit. I always feel uncomfortable using someone elses rig. I never want to touch their settings, even if they say its ok.
__________________
Its a drum and its a fish
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-26-2010, 08:13 AM
Skitch's Avatar
Skitch Skitch is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,751
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post
Well, this is true, but it also involves selecting models, pitching them to taste, setting velocities and levels, EQ-ing, and a whole host of other steps that take longer than I'll have tomorrow. Also since it's somebody else's personal kit, I feel awkward reprogramming anything. Heck, if I could have made it work, I wouldn't have even changed the preset, but I couldn't make the big rock snare work, nor the uber-compressed rock-n-roll kick drum.

Bottom line is that I'll just make it work. I always end up hurting myself playing Roland kits because I overplay... trying to coax a little more volume or rim shots or whatever. I hit the artificial ceiling of the kit and keep hitting harder and harder, until I realize that I'm swinging with full extension. My shoulder is sore just from the sound check! :)
I wish I had seen this earlier. Probably the best bet would be to use an "acoustic" ride cymbal and hi hats. These don't contribute as much to the volume problem generated by acoustic drums. I don't know that they would go for this but the ride cymbal is the expression in jazz (at least for me) and a patch in an electronic kit sounds sterile at the very best. The hi hat will keep the rest of the band in time as well.

If there is brushwork involved, set up an acoustic snare to your left (assuming you're a right handed drummer). Think (gasp) Steve Gadd as far kick drum work goes and for the sound patch to use.

If there was a way to go about it, I would just state the case that one reason why the drums keep the time is because they can't be turned down in a monitor mix and thus ignored. A ride cymbal and hi hat would help keep everything for falling apart, time-wise. usually, there is always someone who has an axe to grind against drums in a situation like this.

What they end up getting is a production which comes off sounding very generic and very bland. And sometimes, the trainwreck happens because now the band doesn't have to listen to you!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com
http://www.patentcoachmike.com
http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.facebook.com/mike.mccraw
http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemccraw
http://twitter.com/mikemccraw
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-26-2010, 05:02 PM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,149
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

Sounds like good subject matter for the youtube jazz robots to discuss LOL!

I have been studying Jazz for about five years now and I am just beginning to be proud of my cymbal and brush work.

I have fooled around with many electro kits over the years and I despise them because I can't pull sound nuances from them.
They are nothing more than an interesting toy to me that I get bored with after only a few moments.
I spend hours learning how to play and the e-kit takes it all away!

In my case I would have told the worship director to stuff it. (In a nice Christian way of course)
I then would have probably had to look for another church to join!
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-26-2010, 09:02 PM
Nodiggie's Avatar
Nodiggie Nodiggie is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cowtown
Posts: 1,369
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

I totally agree with Bobdadruma,

ekits have their place but you loose those subtle abilities that acoustics lend themselves to.

That is the main reason I no longer wish to play at my church. They have become accustomed to overly loud drummers so they built a completely sound proof enclosure for the drums.

I would have suggested to your worship leader to just program all the drum tracks through a keyboard and give you the night off. In any case, more power and patience to ya brother.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-01-2011, 12:48 AM
dkerwood's Avatar
dkerwood dkerwood is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 641
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodiggie View Post
I totally agree with Bobdadruma,

ekits have their place but you loose those subtle abilities that acoustics lend themselves to.

That is the main reason I no longer wish to play at my church. They have become accustomed to overly loud drummers so they built a completely sound proof enclosure for the drums.

I would have suggested to your worship leader to just program all the drum tracks through a keyboard and give you the night off. In any case, more power and patience to ya brother.
Yeah... well, I've only been going to this church for about six months, and am trying to get INTO playing there, not out of it. :)

The gig went well, relatively speaking. We prepared six tunes and ended up only doing about three. That part was certainly a bummer, especially since I went to some extra trouble of writing out melodies for the horn players to noodle around.

The sound was actually quite big, I was surprised to discover. The room was huge, and yes, it probably was easier on the soundman to use an e-kit. Heck, they didn't even use multiple outputs to send the drums to the system! They just sent one (presumably) mono output into one channel on the mixer. That means, of course, that the drummer has to make sure his own kit is balanced, and if there's problems, I guess the sound guy just had to yell back.

For my playing, though, it was sufficient. I hate not being able to be subtle, though. I'm not a flashy drummer, and I don't have remarkable speed or crazy polyrhythmic fills to display. My calling card is nuance, subtlety, and the ability to play in the pocket no matter what. The pocket was fine, but there is no nuance or subtlety with an e-kit. Maybe six levels of attack, triggered by hitting *a little* harder? Meh.

With the size of room, it makes sense that they wouldn't want to mess with an acoustic set. It was a big enough venue that they'd probably want to throw at least a couple overhead mics on the drums, which is a lot of extra hassle for three jazz tunes before the service even started.

Oh well. Hopefully I made some good impressions and can start getting into the regular rotation at church.
__________________
PEWFLADCC- Conductor of PEWFLADCC Philharmonic and State Steam Locomotive
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-05-2011, 09:22 AM
Davo-London's Avatar
Davo-London Davo-London is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: St Albans, I work in London
Posts: 1,367
Default Re: The bait and switch: Jazz gig

You did a good thing in one sense that was to comply and fit-in within the constraints presented. However, it would also be worth pointing out that for a decent drummer, aka yourself, then an acoustic kit would have been more appropriate for jazz. Jazz kits/players do not play at high volumes and so the balance can be made to work. I have a TD12 and whilst I genuinely respect Bobdadruma loathing of ekits, I have no choice but to use an ekit. I agree that the ekits are worst for jazz for the reasons Bob stated.

As you become a trusted member of the worship team, then the leaders will take more notice of you and your demands.

Davo
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com