DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Off Topic Lounge

Off Topic Lounge All Discussions Not Related To Drumming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:14 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,224
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

I own stock in several key health care companies that will benefit from the current US health care legislation.
I also have several Chinese investments.
My Mama always taught me to "Follow The Big Money"
Go with the flow my brothers and sisters, Go with the flow!
Just do what the members of the US Congress do.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-18-2010, 05:25 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,168
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhzoso View Post
So why we are all distracted with our arguments dems, rep's conservative, liberal.. the real smart people are doing this..
They don't even have to be real smart ... but it sure helps, if your really rich. Now we got this "big debate" over extending the tax cuts, by "another" 2 years. So. if we need to "extend them" .... (gee Dr. Science, that means they're "already there") ... For 9 years, and all during "that" time .... did we see any jobs created? Did we see any "economic stimulus"? ... who "are" all these small business owners (who make "over $250,000 a year)? All the "small business owners" I know, fall into that "median" category .... $50K (or less).
If I made close to $250K, I'd gladly give 50% up, for taxes. I think I could still manage on an income of $125K. That's only about 14 times what I'm making, now .... all the while .... this diatribe "extend ... expire" BS is over 3%.
And this whole communism, socialism, libraltarianism, semantics .... who cares "what" you call it. It's coming. Like the big alien motherships, from another planet. You can't run. You can't hide. You ain't got a vote in the matter. It's coming. And it's bigger than any one government/nation. It's the "New World Order" in HD.
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-18-2010, 05:22 PM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Godwin's Law!
Ha! No. Not in this case. From the horse's mouth:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard208.html

"But the most convincing evidence of Keynes's strong fascist bent was the special foreword he prepared for the German edition of The General Theory. This German translation, published in late 1936, included a special introduction for the benefit of Keynes's German readers and for the Nazi regime under which it was published. Not surprisingly, Harrod's idolatrous Life of Keynes makes no mention of this introduction, although it was included two decades later in volume seven of the Collected Writings along with forewords to the Japanese and French editions.

The German introduction, which has scarcely received the benefit of extensive commentary by Keynesian exegetes, includes the following statements by Keynes: "Nevertheless the theory of output as a whole, which is what the following book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state, than is the theory of production and distribution of a given output produced under conditions of free competition and a lance measure of laissez-faire." (Keynes 1973 [1936]: p. xxvi. Cf. Martin 1971: pp. 2005; Hazlitt [1959] 1973: p. 277; Brunner 1987: p. 38ff.; Hayek 1967: p. 346)"


Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
+1.

( I knew all along that you were a really an economist hiding being your Pearl Masters..)
That somehow makes my role as a drummer seem...less sexy. :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhzoso View Post
So why we are all distracted with our arguments dems, rep's conservative, liberal.. the real smart people are doing this..http://www.cnbc.com/id/40233691
That's just it; these arguments are a distraction, at best. There are no political solutions to our problems, only market solutions. Look within for leadership. The "Tea Party", liberals, conservatives, etc. - it's all indistinguishably useless...an imminent failure and a frivolous waste of your time and energy. These people are intentionally vague and contradictory in their expressed goals because they don't serve you, they serve themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
And this whole communism, socialism, libraltarianism, semantics .... who cares "what" you call it. It's coming. Like the big alien motherships, from another planet. You can't run. You can't hide. You ain't got a vote in the matter. It's coming. And it's bigger than any one government/nation. It's the "New World Order" in HD.
I strongly disagree (unless you were joking ;) Referring to this and also, Polly and nhzoso's discussion: politics is a cesspool of pessimism. Correctly assessing the world from an economic point of view is optimistic.

There is no "NWO". I don't believe in all of this dystopian forecasting...as if we'll all live in prison camps someday. This is naive and it lends far too much credit to the goons who currently run the world. Huxley and Orwell were great fiction writers, not well-read economists. You can remain optimistic because the market will correct the wrongs. Top-heavy states/empires all over the world...England, Europe, E. Europe, the US, are going broke. The parasitic nature of state-capitalism guarantees eventual collapse, which guarantees a dramatically smaller state. A smaller state equals more economic freedom, and economic freedom is one-in-the-same with individual liberty.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
There are no political solutions to our problems, only market solutions. Look within for leadership. The "Tea Party", liberals, conservatives, etc. - it's all indistinguishably useless...an imminent failure and a frivolous waste of your time and energy. These people are intentionally vague and contradictory in their expressed goals because they don't serve you, they serve themselves.
There a part of me that would love to see markets replace govt but it's an impossible dream. The first problem is that if you strip the power from government where does it go? Nature abhors a vacuum. You end up with multinationals as feudal lords - defacto government. Distortions caused by economies of scale would run riot even more than it's been allowed to do now. A recipe for instability ... and stability is the plank on which western prosperity was built.

Government is a necessary evil to provide stability by tempering power imbalances (nothing like dealing with a multinational when they rip you off - you get the finger and there's not a thing you can do about it). If we could find a way of getting governments to focus on sensible things like helping to temper the natural excesses to which market will naturally gravitate rather than waging counter-productive wars or imposing their religious dogmas on us regarding what we do with our own bodies, it'd be cool.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-18-2010, 09:50 PM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
There a part of me that would love to see markets replace govt but it's an impossible dream. The first problem is that if you strip the power from government where does it go? Nature abhors a vacuum. You end up with multinationals as feudal lords - defacto government. Distortions caused by economies of scale would run riot even more than it's been allowed to do now. A recipe for instability ... and stability is the plank on which western prosperity was built.

Government is a necessary evil to provide stability by tempering power imbalances (nothing like dealing with a multinational when they rip you off - you get the finger and there's not a thing you can do about it). If we could find a way of getting governments to focus on sensible things like helping to temper the natural excesses to which market will naturally gravitate rather than waging counter-productive wars or imposing their religious dogmas on us regarding what we do with our own bodies, it'd be cool.
Certainly not the first time I've heard this, in 12 yrs. of reading and debating. Impossible? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it a wasted effort and not worth pursuing. I see it as an evolution of society, that has been progressing since ordered society amongst humans began. The US was one step in the progression toward laissez faire, which has now been spoiled by the pursuit of empire, of course. This is, after all, the inevitable conclusion of a successful state.

You make several incorrect assumptions here...let's examine them. I don't believe any degree of "evil" to be necessary, at all.

Assumption 1: Gov't creates stability.

I fail to see this. In the theoretical stateless society, private property and full personal liability renders large-scale war improbable, if not impossible. Nothing destroys wealth and lives faster than war. It is impractical for small parties to attempt to wage war by way of their own finances, not extracted from taxpayers. To the point, large-scale war is the product of government and no other human institution has claimed lives and property faster, in the history of mankind. War is the antithesis of safety and stability.

Assumption 2: Corporations = free enterprise

Incorrect. The opposite is true. Corporations are state-licenced entities, deriving special privilege from the state. Any power that corporations have over individuals is derived from state-power and cannot otherwise exist, at least not for very long, since it would be self-destructive to even attempt it. I'm not sure what type of "wars" you're referring to, but see #1 (private property prevents frivolous unprofitable pursuits.) Any corporatist abuse you can cite today is a problem with government-granted privilege, not the free market.

Assumption 3: Statism = safety

This is core, of course. States are formed out of fear...fear of our neighbors and xenophobic paranoia of "outsiders". This is the selling point of statists, but the unfortunate irony is; states are to be feared above all else. Nothing compromises your safety and stability more. After all, we are just talking about *people*, are we not? Fear of your fellow man is the *worst* justification for creating a special coercive monopoly in society, allowed to use murder and the threat thereof, to force the will of the majority onto others, I have ever heard.

Anyhow...

Wishing that you could get government to be sensible and actually solve problems in society is nothing more than a logical fallacy. I've been accused of being utopian by people who claim such things, believe it or not. On the contrary, because I'm aware that utopia is impossible, I advocate a society that reflects human nature, rather than one that rubs directly against its grain.

Western prosperity was built atop state-capitalism. Think of this as a farm for free-range animals. Free-range animals have the illusion of freedom and thus are more productive. In the end, they still go to slaughter. Since state-capitalism resembles free markets in some ways, it is more productive than say, communism. Both systems are inevitable failures, however, it's just the degree of intervention into markets that determines how long this process takes.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 11-19-2010, 12:35 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,168
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
I strongly disagree (unless you were joking ;)
Certainly your right to disagree - and have a different opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
Referring to this and also, Polly and nhzoso's discussion: politics is a cesspool of pessimism.
No, neither "optimistic" or "pessimistic" .... people are optimistic or pessimistic. Politics is a tool, a very useful tool. Especially if you have extreme amounts of wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
Correctly assessing the world from an economic point of view is optimistic.
Well, I'm glad you're an "optimist". I am too. But, whether you ... or I .... or someone else ... has the "correct assessment", there's really nothing we can do about it. Whatever it is ,it's going to happen. With our blessing ... or without.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
There is no "NWO".
Again, your right, to disagree.
There's an "elephant" in the room. You can acknowledge that the "elephant" is there .... or you can go on about your business, and ignore that the "elephant" is there. Either way, doesn't matter. The "elephant" couldn't care less, whether he's "seen" or "not".
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
I don't believe in all of this dystopian forecasting...as if we'll all live in prison camps someday.
I don't think I ever mentioned "living in prison camps". And I hate terms like "dystopian" ... it's like throwing terms like socialism, fascism, communism around. Buzz words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
This is naive
OK... this just pisses me off. If you're calling me "naive" I'm pissed. If you're calling my way of thinking "naive", I'm pissed. I have just as much a right to express myself .... as you .... or anyone else. It's a given, that we don't see "eye to eye" ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
and it lends far too much credit to the goons who currently run the world.
Fact of the matter is ... the goons that run the world, are indeed, running the world. You can't take the power away from the Kings and Queens, dynasties built a thousand years ago. Wealth handed down, from generation to generation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
Huxley and Orwell were great fiction writers, not well-read economists.
Again, more "buzz" words. I don't think I've ever read any "Huxley" ... and I've maybe read one "Orwell" book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
You can remain optimistic because the market will correct the wrongs.
No, I can remain "optimistic", because I'm 53, and so far, everything that life has "thrown at me", I've been able to deal with. I probably have another 40 years in me, and I probably have enough "cash" in my wallet to "afford" the trip. At the end of the road ... no worries.
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 11-19-2010, 12:45 AM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

No need to be pissed, Harry. I wasn't sniping at you and certainly meant no offense. Just stating my grounds for disagreement.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 11-20-2010, 02:35 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Vince, I don't have time to go through everything bit by bit but I do understand that libertarians are 1) very passionate and 2) seek the same things as any of us want - freedom without anarchy .

We have a system that has delivered better outcomes in terms of stability and living standards than in any time in history. Perhaps the model in which it was built has outlived its usefulness? Could be. However, the alternatives offered strike me as idealistic, unrealistic and unconvincing. There are a lot of "experts" who seem to know better than the experts.

The stateless society is an impossible dream (apart from the anarchy in Somalia). As I said, take away the state and someone else will fill the power void. That someone will be the most powerful amongst us - multinationals and organised crime rings. What we would end up with is a collection of feudal lords, at least some based overseas. As it is, they are already pulling the strings, with government acting as both a puppeteer and, thankfully, a filter.

I believe that no system can work ideally when you crowd a squillion people on the planet. What we have is a wicked problem. All I know is the Tea Party and its equivalents are going the wrong way but it's to be expected that when times are hard people pine for the glory days and will cling to any snake oil salesman (or sales woman, as seems to be the case) who promises a return to the good old days. History demonstrates that this approach ends up in disaster.

Hopefully people won't be fooled, although Rupert Murdoch's stable of bias-merchants seem to be calling the shots more than I'd like.

This ain't pessimism - it's reality. In short: too many people, certainly too many for a systemless society without the coordination that government brings. Bear in mind that we already have systems that reflect human nature, hence their existence.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 11-20-2010 at 01:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:32 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,168
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
Just stating my grounds for disagreement.
That you disagree with me is implied, received, and understood.
My opinion/observations started around 1971. The end of the Vietnam War. A lot of my friends had older brothers who had served in the "Nam". So, it was relatively easy for me, as a high-schooler, to talk to guys, first hand, who had done and seen things and been places that the 6'o clock news wasn't talking about.
So I got more curious.
Fast forward to 1975, I'm a freshman in college, and since I was in an "honors" program, I didn't have to take bonehead soc. 101. Instead, I had the good fortune to have a professor who was one of Nixon's advisors, as my soc. science teacher.
Again, I learned a lot more than the 6'o clock news was telling me.
Fast forward again.
1979 - Russia invades Afghanistan. I tell people ... yeah ... and after the Russians leave, you'll see the US in there, in 10 years.
Everyone thought I was crazy
1989 - the Berlin Wall comes down. I tell people ... yeah ... China will be embracing capitalism soon, and turn to a "more democratic" government.
Everyone thought I was crazy ..... and in 2008, Fareed Zakaria interviews Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, and he talks about China moving "towards" a more democratic form of government, and he mentions the US moving "towards" a more socialistic form.
2001 - the US invades Afghanistan. I tell people ... yeah .... we'll be in this one, for at least 10 years.
Everyone thought I was crazy
2003 - the US invades Iraq. I tell people ... yeah ... we'll be in this one for at least 10 years ... and it's gonna help bankrupt our country.
Everyone thought I was crazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
This is naive...
So certainly, I expect people to disagree with me ... maybe even call me crazy ... but don't dis-respect me and call me, or my opinion "naive". So far, I've been pretty "on the mark" with my predictions.
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:47 AM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
...libertarians are 1) very passionate and 2) seek the same things as any of us want - freedom without anarchy .
Libertarians are anarchists. Political "libertarians", such as the partyarchs involved with the LP, are something else entirely. The of libertarian philosophy is the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP), which when followed to its logical conclusion, consistently, cannot advocate statism in any form.

Anarchy and chaos aren't synonymous. Real, serious philosophical anarchists have always maintained that government is chaos and anarchy is order. In fact, the circle around the traditional "A" is an "O", as in "Anarchy is Order".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
We have a system that has delivered better outcomes in terms of stability and living standards than in any time in history.
Yes, it has. State-Capitalism is a superior form of human ownership when compared to Socialism, Mercantilism, Feudalism, etc. It's still a form of human ownership and like all states, they still fail, violently and miserably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
The stateless society is an impossible dream (apart from the anarchy in Somalia). As I said, take away the state and someone else will fill the power void. That someone will be the most powerful amongst us - multinationals and organised crime rings. What we would end up with is a collection of feudal lords, at least some based overseas. As it is, they are already pulling the strings, with government acting as both a puppeteer and, thankfully, a filter.
This is an argument that many fall back on. "We must have a violent gang of criminals to protect us from...violent gangs of criminals." Organized crime has already taken over and the feudal lords are already in charge. You mention "multinationals" again. By this I assume you mean large, global corporations, correct? These top-heavy giants would never exist without the state (eliminating competition and subsidising), and could not possibly survive the ethics and rules inherent in the free market. I covered this a bit, already.

Americans might refer to the (not so) "wild west", Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and other regions/periods of non-authority, for more relevance. There are plenty of examples, besides Somalia:

http://royhalliday.home.mindspring.com/history.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
All I know is the Tea Party and its equivalents are going the wrong way but it's to be expected that when times are hard people pine for the glory days and will cling to any snake oil salesman (or sales woman, as seems to be the case) who promises a return to the good old days.
Tea Party. LOL. I agree with this. There is no return to those idyllic days of yore, during America's modest days as a small Republic. This is not the nature of empires and has never happened. Economic collapse is how empires end...never by ceding power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
This ain't pessimism - it's reality. In short: too many people, certainly too many for a systemless society without the coordination that government brings.
I believe you misunderstand "anarchism". No one is advocating "chaos" - again, they're not one-in-the-same. Order is absolutely necessary, naturally. Libertarians advocate *voluntary* order, in all cases. Coercive, violent monopolies are not moral institutions and ultimately, they cannot hold order for long and create more problems than they hope to solve. This order is based entirely on the threat (and use) of murder...even as much as a parking ticket.

Polly, I'm not insisting that you agree with me, I'm simply saying that your rationale for the acceptance of statism is not good enough for me. I've long since rejected these types of arguments for the reasons I gave...they're inherently contradictory.

Impossible? Again, maybe...maybe not. I practice non-aggression and peaceful, positive free market exchanges, everyday. Speculating on possibility doesn't make it an unworthy cause.

I'll leave you with a thought from my favorite economist and biggest influence:

"If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action." - Ludwig von Mises
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 11-21-2010, 07:59 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Vince, how so you see anarchy and chaos as not synonymous ... especially in a world with 6 billion+ people? I can't see it ... it sounds theoretical to me.

I don't know about you but life in Sydney is not violent, at least not in my circles. The state (in western countries) is less violent than any in history. They certainly could be more sensible, agreed. The war on drugs and incursions into people's private lives generally are counter-productive and unethical, but I think if we chip away at these issues (and the bloody Tea Party doesn't get in) perhaps we can achieve sane policy ... (that applies to the Tea Party's OS equivalents too). Guess you're talking revolution and I'm talking evolution.

Thing is about multinationals, do you think that without state support they would fold? I don't. I suggest that they have the power to be more resilient without state support than smaller, less powerful organisations. The ethics and rules of the free market are no different to any other area of life - might is right.

The less the state is involved as a regulator, the bigger the advantage of economies of scale in the market. You would have a rash of monopolies and cartels. Unchecked, the market will have a constant cycle of bubbles and crashes. Unchecked, the strong in the market would annihilate the smaller players (more so than they are doing now with weak regulation) ... in the same way as the physically strong will prey on the weak without laws to temper people's behaviour.

I feel like you are speculating as to what would have happened if we'd had free market instead of capitalism - and the world didn't have a history of monarchies, dictatorships and feudal societies. Thing is, look at where we are now and imagine what would happen if you stripped the safeguards away. I think the biggest problem is what's always been the problem - the powerful exploit the less powerful. This happens in any system, but states are supposed to temper this tendency to make for more stable society.

One thing that peeves me is everyone seems to be up in arms now that Obama is in. Where were they when Bush was growing the public service at record levels and bankrupting the country with bad policy and military adventurism? It seems that the current US govt is copping a lot of blame for the previous administration's mistakes and in failing to solve wicked problems (which of course, have no painless solution).

I blame Murdoch, who seems to be in love with the Tea Party.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 11-21-2010, 04:36 PM
PQleyR's Avatar
PQleyR PQleyR is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Godalming, UK
Posts: 2,269
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

There is also of course the fact that Obama, who was elected under the banner of hope and change, has consistantly followed the same course as the previous administration, and gone back on most of his promises. I think people hoped that this eloquent, intelligent man would go where no politician has gone for a long time and actually do what he said he was going to do, and since he's comprehensively failed to do that they have reason to be unhappy with him.


Anarchy = without a ruler, just as monarchy = one ruler. When in human history has a real free market ever been tried? I think America in its infancy was the closest thing in modern times, and that was acknowledged as a threat at the time by the old powers over here in the UK. The interest-free system of credit was too much for them to bear, because they knew it would replace the old system if allowed to continue.
__________________
Drummer for Gloryhammer
My facebook page
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 11-21-2010, 07:25 PM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Vince, how so you see anarchy and chaos as not synonymous ... especially in a world with 6 billion+ people? I can't see it ... it sounds theoretical to me.
It seems as if you're buying into the overpopulation myth? For some perspective, you could take every living human being on the planet, today, give them all a house and the average American suburban-sized yard, and they would all fit inside the state of Texas.

I see it as backwards, to assume that a larger population requires more centralized oversight and control. This is the antithesis of the empirical evidence we have for human action - how humans behave in markets. Scarcity is best addressed by localized organization and spontaneous order. As the US has grown in size, the central state has grown less and less efficient (and concerned) with addressing the needs of its citizens. The 545 folks in Washington DC are finding it impossible to represent 308 million individual citizens and solve any real problems, as an example. They are destroying the economy, in an attempt to do so. Meeting the needs of consumers means gathering information on the ground and responding to it...not while reading faulty, aggregated data and making blanket rules for all, thousands of miles away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I don't know about you but life in Sydney is not violent, at least not in my circles. The state (in western countries) is less violent than any in history. They certainly could be more sensible, agreed. The war on drugs and incursions into people's private lives generally are counter-productive and unethical, but I think if we chip away at these issues (and the bloody Tea Party doesn't get in) perhaps we can achieve sane policy ... (that applies to the Tea Party's OS equivalents too). Guess you're talking revolution and I'm talking evolution.
The US is vast and diverse. In states and cities where government has interevened the greatest in markets and engaged in heavy social engineering, violence, unemployment, and decay are glaringly obvious. In places like Idaho, where I live, where the state is relatively small and less influential, it is more peaceful and prosperous. I grew up in W. NY state, an area which has crumbled and collapsed due to the weight of the state. The state itself is insolvent, it's only a matter of time before it's publicly admitted. The War On Drugs is a great example of the law of unintended consequences. The opposite of the intended was (predictably) achieved. You believe that the state creates order when in fact, it empowers and enriches criminals via public policy. Your example only strengthens my arguments. The Tea Party is a faction of neo-conservative fascists and will only make matters worse. The other half of the political duopoly, differs only in rhetoric. Both are only concerned with retaining and building power and wealth for themselves, not helping "the people."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Thing is about multinationals, do you think that without state support they would fold? I don't. I suggest that they have the power to be more resilient without state support than smaller, less powerful organisations. The ethics and rules of the free market are no different to any other area of life - might is right.

The less the state is involved as a regulator, the bigger the advantage of economies of scale in the market. You would have a rash of monopolies and cartels. Unchecked, the market will have a constant cycle of bubbles and crashes. Unchecked, the strong in the market would annihilate the smaller players (more so than they are doing now with weak regulation) ... in the same way as the physically strong will prey on the weak without laws to temper people's behaviour.
They would shrink and adapt to the peaceful demand of the market (people), or they would fail, as any smaller competitor would be forced to do, today. Corporations are the commercial wing of the political establishment, as previously detailed. Large corporations are the biggest benefactors to regulations which is why they are first to line up to support them, when they are proposed. They are able to afford or even avoid most of the new laws and their smaller competitors, who may very well be more innovative, efficient, and better meet the needs of consumers...cannot. Through regulations, tax breaks, relief of responsibility for their risks and actions (limited liability), and subsidies (using law to skew consumer dollars in their direction, artificially and by force), large corps are absolutely empowered by the state. None of this is possible in a free market economy. They would be forced to meet the needs and wants of consumers or fail. I invite you to illustrate how *any* entrepreneur can *take* from a customer without first satisfying that customer's needs (mutually beneficial) - outside of state-power. You might say something like trickery, "false advertising", to which I would answer; this is a losing strategy. Since all companies must rely on reputation and repeat business.

A monopoly would very likely not exist in a free market. This is virtually guaranteed by competitive pressure. Currenly, the only way a monopoly can exist is in the context of aggression. Competition simply cannot be eliminated without force, since new entrepreneurs will see the profit incentive to out-compete the older, less consumer-responsive company.

Theoretically a monopoly *could* occur in a free market economy, but only by continuing to please consumers with a superior, less expensive good or service. The reward for pleasing the greatest number of consumers is becoming the top-dog in your industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I feel like you are speculating as to what would have happened if we'd had free market instead of capitalism - and the world didn't have a history of monarchies, dictatorships and feudal societies. Thing is, look at where we are now and imagine what would happen if you stripped the safeguards away. I think the biggest problem is what's always been the problem - the powerful exploit the less powerful. This happens in any system, but states are supposed to temper this tendency to make for more stable society.
Free markets are everywhere. Have you ever sold something to another person, privately? Ever been to a yard sale? A flea market? Ever bought and/or sold something on the internet? In the USSR, the black market saved the lives of millions by supplying goods and services to people where the state had destroyed their ability to do it in the open. Again, the powerful already exploit the the less powerful...with the threat of death. This seems as barbaric, anti-social, and un-safe as could be imagined, since they use a monopoly on legal power to justify it and are accountable to no one. This is a subversion of the safeguards and accountability inhertent in voluntary, free market relationships (as illustrated.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
One thing that peeves me is everyone seems to be up in arms now that Obama is in. Where were they when Bush was growing the public service at record levels and bankrupting the country with bad policy and military adventurism? It seems that the current US govt is copping a lot of blame for the previous administration's mistakes and in failing to solve wicked problems (which of course, have no painless solution).
Peas in a pod. The rhetoric changes but the outcome is always the same...chaos, disorder, disunity, a steady reduction of liberty and opportunity for everyone.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 11-21-2010, 09:19 PM
Deathmetalconga's Avatar
Deathmetalconga Deathmetalconga is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Godwin's Law!

....................
HA! Touche! 20202020202020
__________________
Ironwood kit Tiki kit Openhanders Vids
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 11-21-2010, 09:32 PM
Deathmetalconga's Avatar
Deathmetalconga Deathmetalconga is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 7,225
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

[quote=zambizzi;767890]Libertarians are anarchists. Political "libertarians", such as the partyarchs involved with the LP, are something else entirely. The of libertarian philosophy is the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP), which when followed to its logical conclusion, consistently, cannot advocate statism in any form.
[/url]

The current group of people calling themselves Libertarians and the Tea Party are just the Religious Right of the 1980s with a new branding message of "small government." They support government control of reproduction and want to legislate personal values with their interpretation Biblical religious law (Christian Sharia). They're no more libertarians than Hitler and the Nazis (sorry, couldn't help myself, the Godwin's genie is out the box).

Zam, I know you are more pure in your ideology and you've obviously done your homework. So you do not represent the typical Tea Partier, but those are the folks on the ascendancy in some parts of American politics.
__________________
Ironwood kit Tiki kit Openhanders Vids
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 11-21-2010, 10:56 PM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
HA! Touche! 20202020202020
Touche, indeed! You must have missed this post:

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
The current group of people calling themselves Libertarians and the Tea Party are just the Religious Right of the 1980s with a new branding message of "small government." They support government control of reproduction and want to legislate personal values with their interpretation Biblical religious law (Christian Sharia). They're no more libertarians than Hitler and the Nazis (sorry, couldn't help myself, the Godwin's genie is out the box).

Zam, I know you are more pure in your ideology and you've obviously done your homework. So you do not represent the typical Tea Partier, but those are the folks on the ascendancy in some parts of American politics.
Absolutely correct.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 11-22-2010, 12:16 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

[quote=PQleyR;767963]There is also of course the fact that Obama, who was elected under the banner of hope and change, has consistantly followed the same course as the previous administration, and gone back on most of his promises. I think people hoped that this eloquent, intelligent man would go where no politician has gone for a long time and actually do what he said he was going to do, and since he's comprehensively failed to do that they have reason to be unhappy with him.quote]

Myunderstanding is that he has been opposed by Congress at every turn. You can only make changes if you're allowed to do so. Vince, if it's two peas in a pod it's because most of the govt personnel are the same, even if the Pres has changed.

Also, as said earlier, an ocean liner can't be turned around straight away - major policy directions determined in the past need to be worked through.

Vince, you say a monopoly might not exist in a free market but that's only if you start with a level playing field. However, the way things are the major players hold all the aces and any freeing will only allow them to entrench their power at a faster rate.

As I say, it's a wicked problem, old bean.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 11-22-2010, 12:50 AM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
There is also of course the fact that Obama, who was elected under the banner of hope and change, has consistantly followed the same course as the previous administration, and gone back on most of his promises. I think people hoped that this eloquent, intelligent man would go where no politician has gone for a long time and actually do what he said he was going to do, and since he's comprehensively failed to do that they have reason to be unhappy with him.quote]

Myunderstanding is that he has been opposed by Congress at every turn. You can only make changes if you're allowed to do so. Vince, if it's two peas in a pod it's because most of the govt personnel are the same, even if the Pres has changed.

Also, as said earlier, an ocean liner can't be turned around straight away - major policy directions determined in the past need to be worked through.

Vince, you say a monopoly might not exist in a free market but that's only if you start with a level playing field. However, the way things are the major players hold all the aces and any freeing will only allow them to entrench their power at a faster rate.

As I say, it's a wicked problem, old bean.
Opposed by Congress? I think not. Both parties are interested in the same thing but his own party has had control of both the Senate and the House, and obviously, the Executive. The predictable outcome of the next few years will be a dramatic swing back to the "right", which will again prove to be ineffective and destructive, causing another swing back to the "left", and so on, as it has always been. The positive thing to glean from this is the overall continuing loss of faith in statism.

The difference in the next few years will be that there will be no inflationary tides to ride and grow power upon. As this thread began - the FED will indeed hyperinflate the dollar. I could go into immense detail on this (even more so than I already have) and provide plenty of clear information as to why I believe this to be true. The thing to remember here is (and this is what I tried to point out to Harry); the American state won't survive the second Great Depression, not in its current form, at least. All of Europe, and indeed the entire world, faces the same type of social disintegration. This is the global "crack-up boom" that Austrians have always talked about.

I'm just happy that I'm hip to this now, so I can do the best I can to prepare my kids for the immense challenges they're going to face, as adults.

Edit:

From today's Financial Times:

"Pessimistic Fed to slash growth forecasts"
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b92ecb0c-f...#axzz15xq7IbFK

Rising prices and unemployment. Bad news!
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 11-22-2010, 12:51 AM
PQleyR's Avatar
PQleyR PQleyR is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Godalming, UK
Posts: 2,269
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Corporations only have power through money. If the financial system collapses they will be in no state to monopolize anything.

Opposition from Congress or not, you only have to look at Obama's cabinet upon taking office to see how very smooth the transition was from the Bush administration. Robert Gates even stayed on, the only Secretary of Defense in US history to stay on from one administration to the next! How that represents change with regards to foreign policy I do not know.
__________________
Drummer for Gloryhammer
My facebook page
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 11-22-2010, 01:09 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,224
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

The cartoon implies that the Fed didn't understand the economy during the period of the past twenty years.

That simply isn't true!

Allan Greenspan began issuing warnings about high consumer credit debt, low consumer savings balances, over valued stocks, high real estate values, jobs moving overseas, poor banking policies, and many other things way back in the early 90's.

Basically, The only power that the Fed has to try and control the economy is to set interest rates, print and distribute money, and make speeches that make recommendations to banks and industry leaders.

The Economy is really up to all of us!
We are the consumers that take the loans and credit risks that bring ourselves into debt.
We are the owners of companies that move our manufacturing to China.
We are the realtors and sellers of homes that inflate the value to outrageous proportions.
We are the people that work for large investment firms that make bad decisions.
We are the bankers that write bad loans.
We are the people that allow our corrupt government to exist without revolting in civil war.

We did this to ourselves!
We now expect the Fed and the US Gov to bail us out!
We didn't deserve to be bailed out for our own stupidity!

I'm sorry to be the wet towel that puts it all into truth.

But the truth is the truth!
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)

Last edited by bobdadruma; 11-22-2010 at 01:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 11-22-2010, 01:19 AM
nhzoso
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
Opposed by Congress? I think not. Both parties are interested in the same thing but his own party has had control of both the Senate and the House, and obviously, the Executive.
s!


Awww you blew the ole excuse everyone uses to defend him., it is either A) Bush's fault and Obumma can't do it all or B) it is congress's fault for stopping the Great one from in-acting his hope and change...LOL
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 11-22-2010, 02:05 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

None of this explains why everyone is up in arms now rather than when the previous administration was doing the damage. Never heard a peep when the oil baron was in power ...
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 11-22-2010, 02:07 AM
nhzoso
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
None of this explains why everyone is up in arms now rather than when the previous administration was doing the damage. Never heard a peep when the oil baron was in power ...
Are you joking?? there were more protests than not.. I guess we all only see what we want to see eh?
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 11-22-2010, 03:08 AM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
We did this to ourselves!
We now expect the Fed and the US Gov to bail us out!
We didn't deserve to be bailed out for our own stupidity!

I'm sorry to be the wet towel that puts it all into truth.

But the truth is the truth!
This has *some* technical truth, Bob, but it's faulty logic and misses the mark, overall.

All economic activity relies on market signals. Low interest rates at the FED signals profits in lending, to banks. Low rates on lending signals to businesses that now is the time to invest in long-term projects, even when consumers have given no indication that they intend to postpone current consumption, to free up resources to dedicate to those long-term projects. The coordination of production across time is disrupted. This causes people to both consume for the present *and* build for the future, regardless of savings, and diverts capital into unsustainable projects. This is the cause of the "boom-and-bust cycle" in the economy. Hayek won the Nobel Prize in 1974, for illustrating this fact.

Add to that, lending standards were artificially lowered by law, like the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA.)

As consumers and producers, we have no choice but to follow market signals in order to make decisions in our financial affairs. The FED distorts this fundamental aspect of all economic activity by controlling the price of money.

I recommend "Meltdown" by Tom Woods. Not only does it describe the 2008 economic collapse in detail, it's a great introduction to the Austrian Theory of the Business Cycle. It'll help you truly understand the FED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
None of this explains why everyone is up in arms now rather than when the previous administration was doing the damage. Never heard a peep when the oil baron was in power ...
There were peeps, plenty of people were disgusted with G-Dubs. The anti-war left was hysterical...and rightfully so. Mysteriously (or not), these folks have all but disappeared, today. Maybe they were just a bit disingenuous or they're just plain worn out. Folks who are really paying attention realize that it simply doesn't matter who gets elected to office.

One major difference is economic conditions. In fat times, there is a much higher tolerance for abuse than in lean times. Now that the lean times have arrived, it (almost) seems logical (for some) that the person sitting on the throne currently, is somehow to blame. He shares the blame, but so does every president since George Washington, regardless of stripe or banner. But when voters place the blame solely on politicians, they can really only blame themselves...they share in that responsibility.

In reality, the real blame lies on the FED because this is where the real power and influence lies. This is where working people should focus their anger and attention...worldwide.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 11-22-2010, 12:25 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhzoso View Post
Are you joking?? there were more protests than not.. I guess we all only see what we want to see eh?
Pull the other one, nhozo, it plays Jingle Bells. You might be surprised that I'm not the straw woman leftie that you seem to think I am. I'm no political warrior looking for things to justify my views. I just watch ... and the intensity of the US media when it comes to Obama is amazing. He's getting smashed. The other bloke got off easy.

But Vince, yeah, there is a lot more tolerance when things are going okay. Given the time lag of consequences of policy decisions, it's inevitable that the system will punish politicians who create and reward those who live off the fat of those measures or scrimp on infrastructure spending in the good times.

For sure, the system sucks in a number of ways but I don't think that throwing it all out in favour of an untested theoretical model is going to be a panacea either. I can't think of any time in human history that there's been a power vacuum at the top. Someone's always going to take.

Too many people, the weight of history, media barons' agendas, resources running down, competition for those resources, fundamentalism masquerading as The Answer ... not a recipe for smooth operating IMO.

Massive issues, no real answer ... so I play drums and tennis, and surf the net. I think it would be wonderful if an unencumbered free market could deliver but I can't see it. The US must be the freeest market in the world yet even with its incredible resources and developed economy it's doing worse on a range of metrics than a whole bunch of other countries with more regulated markets. The foreign debt is mind-blowing and that was always going to bite at some stage.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 11-22-2010, 01:02 PM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,316
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
The US must be the freeest market in the world yet even with its incredible resources and developed economy it's doing worse on a range of metrics than a whole bunch of other countries with more regulated markets. The foreign debt is mind-blowing and that was always going to bite at some stage.
Pol, its the best system we have and its not perfect. Thats the duality of our times that we need to live with.
And you would be right to say the US is the proof of it. The US doomsday theorists seem to keep forgetting that in absolute terms on almost any parameter, the US still outdistances, W Europe, Japan,China etc by very long shots. The emerging markets rate of growths give us a indicator of things to come, and as Harry suggested a shift in world order, but it will be a long long time before the US relinquishes its status as the most successful nation state in history to China or anybody else.

Hers what Farid Zakaria says in his Book 'How America can survive The Rise of the Rest'

'Despite some eerie parallels between the position of the United States today and that of the British Empire a century ago, there are key differences. Britain's decline was driven by bad economics. The United States, in contrast, has the strength and dynamism to continue shaping the world -- but only if it can overcome its political dysfunction and reorient U.S. policy for a world defined by the rise of other powers.'

...
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 11-22-2010, 01:23 PM
BassDriver's Avatar
BassDriver BassDriver is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 726
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
There a part of me that would love to see markets replace govt but it's an impossible dream. The first problem is that if you strip the power from government where does it go? Nature abhors a vacuum. You end up with multinationals as feudal lords - defacto government. Distortions caused by economies of scale would run riot even more than it's been allowed to do now. A recipe for instability ... and stability is the plank on which western prosperity was built.
I like the idea of the services a government provides being met by a competitive market, atleast services like public transport will be provided properly...

...I go with the philosophy that governments are pretty harmful, they shouldn't really get involved in the economy...

...if it wasn't for governments, there wouldn't be so many corporations getting out of hand with shonky business practices.

Less government interference = more economic competition = less monopolies = better for consumer

Quote:
Libertarians are anarchists. Political "libertarians", such as the partyarchs involved with the LP, are something else entirely. The of libertarian philosophy is the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP), which when followed to its logical conclusion, consistently, cannot advocate statism in any form.
I see labels thrown around quite a bit, Libertarians believe in a state - but basically the bare minimum of state - one that protects your rights but doesn't get involved in the economy...

...anarchists go with the absolute removal of state...there is a difference...

...although how a government is going to stay standing without taxes is going to be a challenge because taxing anything is government interference in the economy which goes against the libertarian principle of the state not getting involved in the economy.

Quote:
Free markets are everywhere. Have you ever sold something to another person, privately? Ever been to a yard sale? A flea market? Ever bought and/or sold something on the internet? In the USSR, the black market saved the lives of millions by supplying goods and services to people where the state had destroyed their ability to do it in the open. Again, the powerful already exploit the the less powerful...with the threat of death. This seems as barbaric, anti-social, and un-safe as could be imagined, since they use a monopoly on legal power to justify it and are accountable to no one. This is a subversion of the safeguards and accountability inhertent in voluntary, free market relationships (as illustrated.)
While that's true, there isn't such thing as a free market on a mass scale. When people are told they are in a free economy (when it comes to big markets) they are being lied to because there are always taxes and regulations.

Quote:
Western prosperity was built atop state-capitalism. Think of this as a farm for free-range animals. Free-range animals have the illusion of freedom and thus are more productive. In the end, they still go to slaughter. Since state-capitalism resembles free markets in some ways, it is more productive than say, communism. Both systems are inevitable failures, however, it's just the degree of intervention into markets that determines how long this process takes.
Unfortunately too many left-wingers are confusing state-capitalism and free-market capitalism under the same banner of capitalism and then saying its bad.
__________________
Check out some of my drumming on my youtube channel:http://www.youtube.com/user/Drumosity
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 11-22-2010, 01:59 PM
nhzoso
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Pull the other one, nhozo, it plays Jingle Bells. You might be surprised that I'm not the straw woman leftie that you seem to think I am. I'm no political warrior looking for things to justify my views. I just watch ... and the intensity of the US media when it comes to Obama is amazing. He's getting smashed. The other bloke got off easy.
Well you may be surprised to know I am not as ultra right wing as you think. Now that we have that out of the way I am wondering what US media you are watching wayy down there? Because honestly to make the statement that Bush got off easy compared to Obama even the bloodiest of the left would agree that this is a ludicrous statement.

If anything he is being treated by the media as any other president has been treated.. There are biased media outlets so you have to take that into consideration, if yoour watching Fox than they are biased to the right, if your watching msnbc, cbs, abc, nbc,cnn, or any hollywood actor or comedian wannabe then they are biased towards the left.


hard to tell these days so ya kind of gotta sort through all the BS,
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 11-22-2010, 02:53 PM
PQleyR's Avatar
PQleyR PQleyR is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Godalming, UK
Posts: 2,269
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

From my perspective in the UK, George Bush was heavily criticized while in power, and still is. His name is met with derision from all sides, the left wingers think he was a megalomaniacal oil-hungry warmongering moron, and the right-wingers think he was just a moron. But everyone's agreed on that, even if it's not strictly true. Obama, on the other hand, is given the benefit of the doubt, it seems. I've not seen a media outlet heavily criticize him here, not like Bush had been.
__________________
Drummer for Gloryhammer
My facebook page
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 11-22-2010, 03:08 PM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,316
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

...

Guys, lets please keep the politics out of this thread. Politics is personal and its a no no on this forum.

Bashing administrations wasn't the intention of this thread either. The idea was to discuss the sweeping economic changes this recession/depression is bringing about and how as laymen we are reacting to it and the policies or the lack of that might be contributing to the mess.

...
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 11-22-2010, 04:39 PM
zambizzi's Avatar
zambizzi zambizzi is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Big Bad Boise
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassDriver View Post
...I go with the philosophy that governments are pretty harmful, they shouldn't really get involved in the economy...

...if it wasn't for governments, there wouldn't be so many corporations getting out of hand with shonky business practices.

Less government interference = more economic competition = less monopolies = better for consumer

I see labels thrown around quite a bit, Libertarians believe in a state - but basically the bare minimum of state - one that protects your rights but doesn't get involved in the economy...

...anarchists go with the absolute removal of state...there is a difference...

...although how a government is going to stay standing without taxes is going to be a challenge because taxing anything is government interference in the economy which goes against the libertarian principle of the state not getting involved in the economy.

While that's true, there isn't such thing as a free market on a mass scale...

Unfortunately too many left-wingers are confusing state-capitalism and free-market capitalism under the same banner of capitalism and then saying its bad.
Bass...I countered all of these assertions and agreed with others, in detail, already. I'll just refer back to the conversation between Polly and I.

The only bit that I'll add is; you're confusing classical liberalism with libertarianism. It matters not who lays claim to words but rather the content of their character and the measure of their actions. There is a rich history here, on both sides, dating back to The Enlightenment (and even prior.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
...
The idea was to discuss the sweeping economic changes this recession/depression is bringing about and how as laymen we are reacting to it and the policies or the lack of that might be contributing to the mess.
This is the most productive course of discussion. It is possible to focus on economics and leave political debate out of the picture, but it requires a slightly more superficial dialogue.

I'll reiterate; the Austrian Theory of the Business Cycle explains the current depression as well as recessions/depressions, past and present. See this post:

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=64
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 11-22-2010, 07:43 PM
PQleyR's Avatar
PQleyR PQleyR is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Godalming, UK
Posts: 2,269
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

For the record, Aydee, my post was only about popular perception of each president in the UK, and not intended to be partisan. I really wouldn't be able to pick a favourite myself, the real power lies away from the White House. That famous Mayer Amschel Rothschild quotation comes to mind, "Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."
__________________
Drummer for Gloryhammer
My facebook page
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 11-22-2010, 08:04 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
Pol, its the best system we have and its not perfect. Thats the duality of our times that we need to live with.
And you would be right to say the US is the proof of it. The US doomsday theorists seem to keep forgetting that in absolute terms on almost any parameter, the US still outdistances, W Europe, Japan,China etc by very long shots.
Better on absolute terms ... against hugely overpopulated countries with depleted or far fewer resources. Lower life expectancy. High obesity rates. Even weaker on the happiness index. Highest incarceration rates. High murder rates. War after war. Now you're going to have to deal with the Tea Party. You have a massive foreign debt and the main thing that seems to be holding the US up is that the main creditor, China, cannot afford to see the US to go downhill quickly ... but rest assured, they have the money and they are in a position to pull the strings. Agree with PQ that whomever has the money has the power.

That's why my heart sinks a little whenever I see Oz blindly following in the US's wake, not necessarily the good things - just the wars, the violence, the hunt for bigger / better / flashier ... the obsession with the zero sum game of positional goods. If we took on the US's jazz or customer service ethos it would be more encouraging.

Nhozo ... Fox News is the main one. There's another ... forgot the name ... begins with C, a three letter acronym. I was on a two-day course recently. Every time we had a break I'd see the TV in the breakout room showing this US channel. The only time they didn't have commentators wringing their hands about Obama was during the reviews for the new Harry Potter film. It made Sydney's Channel 9 look like an honest broker. I'm looking forward to seeing the new HP film ...

Even plain old Google news suddenly became full of stuff kicking Obama. You'd think that a healthcare safety net was something straight out of the Kremlin in the 70s rather than something most OECD countries have.

*bracing for the flames*
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 11-22-2010, 09:01 PM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,168
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

Nhozo ... Fox News is the main one. There's another ... forgot the name ... begins with C, a three letter acronym.
and CNN ... too funny ....
CNN is actually a news channel. And although there is bias there (I mean really, there's bias "everywhere" now) ... they at least cover news ... and relate facts.
Fox, on the other hand, is strictly a very right-wing conservative "entertainment" channel ... masquerading as a news channel. On a perpetual 24/7 Obama-bash cycle. They get, on an average 13-18% of the viewers market, which is basically all of the conservative, right-wing Tea Party people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
...

and how as laymen we are reacting to it and the policies or the lack of that might be contributing to the mess.

...
The current economy, and situation ... kinda like the Cloverfield monster trashing New York. What can you do about it? Duck for cover when it's right on top of you. Run when you get a chance.
Attached Images
 
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 11-22-2010, 09:12 PM
Pkaneps's Avatar
Pkaneps Pkaneps is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Millville, NJ
Posts: 348
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

It's a wonder ANYONE knows what's really going on. Try watching MSNBC for a few minutes and then switch to Fox News. Your head will explode!

I wish I could read or hear solid proven facts from machines.

Obama is being criticized just as much as Bush was, in fact I think Bush might have had it worse, at least in my circles. I think I depends who and where you are. I work at a car dealership, and most of who I work with are conservatives, so I hear more Obama bashing. My friends and I, however, are a bunch of hippies, so we do the Bush bashing.

I'm open minded enough to know it goes both ways, both sides have their pros and cons, and everybody will never be happy.
__________________
"A wise man is wise because he knows that he knows nothing."
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 11-23-2010, 02:34 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pkaneps View Post
Obama is being criticized just as much as Bush was, in fact I think Bush might have had it worse, at least in my circles.
Sure PK, but personal circles are different. I'm talking about the mainstream media - the stuff that a high proportion of the population tune absorb daily.

GWB seemed to cop flak right at the very end but until then he had a saloon ride when compared with the nonstop Obama bashing. I keep reading how he's turning the US into a socialist state for bringing in a healthcare safety net like Europe, Australia & NZ. Canada have one too, don't they?

One thing I found really freaky was during the earlier years of the Iraq war ... there were surveys showing that well over half of Americans thought Saddam was closely allied with Al Qaeda, when they were actually fierce ideological enemies, and his dictatorship largely kept Al Qaeda out of the country.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 11-23-2010, 06:11 AM
BassDriver's Avatar
BassDriver BassDriver is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 726
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
One thing I found really freaky was during the earlier years of the Iraq war ... there were surveys showing that well over half of Americans thought Saddam was closely allied with Al Qaeda, when they were actually fierce ideological enemies, and his dictatorship largely kept Al Qaeda out of the country.
I know that was interesting. Under Saddam Iraq qas a secular country and reaped the benefits of its oil production and the stranglehold it had on oil prices...ofcourse, it was all done with an iron fist.

Quote:
GWB seemed to cop flak right at the very end but until then he had a saloon ride when compared with the nonstop Obama bashing. I keep reading how he's turning the US into a socialist state for bringing in a healthcare safety net like Europe, Australia & NZ. Canada have one too, don't they?
Australia, NZ and Canada are hardly socialist countries, the closest example of socialism is a country like Sweden, and up until the recent financial cunundrum social-democracy (as it has been called) has been the winning economic formula...even then, Sweden still embraces a market economy.

Sweden has public healthcare but atleast all of those taxes those people pay go into a functioning service.

I think the McCarthist-era has done a bit to minds of a lot of Americans, when they think socialism they think USSR - which was actually a terrible example of socialism in practice.

BTW, I'm not a supporter of public healthcare, but hey - sometimes it works, in Australia its going down the toilet at moment (nurses waited for weeks to get their pay, and waiting lists are getting really long) but atleast your check ups get subsidized.

Quote:
It's a wonder ANYONE knows what's really going on. Try watching MSNBC for a few minutes and then switch to Fox News. Your head will explode!
I love watching propaganda with the idea in my mind that it is propaganda, it's amusing.
__________________
Check out some of my drumming on my youtube channel:http://www.youtube.com/user/Drumosity
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 11-23-2010, 09:52 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,168
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
GWB seemed to cop flak right at the very end but until then he had a saloon ride when compared with the nonstop Obama bashing. I keep reading how he's turning the US into a socialist state for bringing in a healthcare safety net like Europe, Australia & NZ. Canada have one too, don't they?
Absolutely correct. We're at a huge turning point, in this country. They like to call this country a "melting" pot, yet it's run by basically Protestant white guys. And that's gonna change here, real soon. The 40% caucasian minority/majority is soon gonna be evened by the growing latino population. With the women, african-american, asian, etc. voters ... that's how Obama got elected.
Now if all you watch (or mostly) is Fox and CNN, Fox is a totally "good old boy" network. They just recently "added" Juan Williams (one day a week?) after he was fired from NPR. The rest of the crew. Glen Beck, Bret Baier, Neil Cacuto, Bill O'Reilly. And darn near every female commentator/annalist they have on looks like barbie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
One thing I found really freaky was during the earlier years of the Iraq war ... there were surveys showing that well over half of Americans thought Saddam was closely allied with Al Qaeda, when they were actually fierce ideological enemies, and his dictatorship largely kept Al Qaeda out of the country.
Again, people like to believe what they're told/what they "want" to hear, which ain't always the truth. When we first entered Iraq, I told people this was gonna be a 10 year war. Most didn't believe me.
But look at the facts. Sadam had the 4th largest army "in the world". Now, such a huge military presence in a country like Iraq is a sure indicator that "something ain't right". That "something" was, Sadam needed all those soldiers/tanks sitting on the general population to keep a civil war at bay. We go in there, take Sadam out, and "boom", suprise ... these folks really don't like each other, not so much.
People still won't accept that it's "all about oil" .... Iraq, second largest oil reserves in the world, behind Saudi Arabia, hmmmm, that they just put pen-to-paper, the largest oil deal "ever" to go down, between Iraq and China. Throw into the equation 2010 was the year China produced/sold 13 million cars (Japan 8 million, the US 6 million). State of the economy! Bush Sr. & Bush Jr. .... oil guys ... and they know a few oil guys.
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 11-23-2010, 02:11 PM
Pkaneps's Avatar
Pkaneps Pkaneps is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Millville, NJ
Posts: 348
Default Re: A funny state of the economy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Sure PK, but personal circles are different. I'm talking about the mainstream media - the stuff that a high proportion of the population tune absorb daily.
You're right, in that case. Bush was criticized by smaller "news" shows, like Jon Stewart and Bill Maher, but not that much by 24 hour news networks. I thought you meant on a personal level, like how many people make remarks in everyday conversation.
__________________
"A wise man is wise because he knows that he knows nothing."
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com