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  #41  
Old 09-13-2010, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by evolving_machine View Post
Except for some unexpected political discussion, I think everything else is just a rehashing what was initially said in the first few posts.

I would like to see some kind of a solution to the problem other than avoidance, or just going on the web. It is unfortunate that once in a while the musician needs to touch and hear the instrument or equipment they are about to purchase, so the stores have a function of sorts.

If the major manufactures understood this problem they may want to sponsor their own outlet stores. Like apple do their stores. But, then the customer would have to visit several stores to compare products between different manufactures. The outlet stores could show off the companies products. Perhaps many companies would do several products at their own outlet stores.

Evolving Machine
well if somebody here has several million to outfit an actual pro shop here with educated sales people and offer decent prices and carry a nice selection of stuff on a regular basis, well you would probably have a whole state worth of business...

there is your solution.
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  #42  
Old 09-14-2010, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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well if somebody here has several million to outfit an actual pro shop here with educated sales people and offer decent prices and carry a nice selection of stuff on a regular basis, well you would probably have a whole state worth of business...

there is your solution.
There are only a few drummers that are seriously seeking high end gear.
There are thousands of drummers seeking the lower end gear.
The stores simply cater to their customers.

Sales flow dictates what they stock and sell.
Department managers review national sales flow data and they stock their store accordingly.
They will stock a few high end products just to have some in the store.
They have a budget that limits the inventory that they can carry and also sales goals to meet.

The overhead of operating a store is very high.
The stores have no choice.

Bottom Line,
If the stores were swamped with people wanting to buy all kinds of expensive drum gear and all sorts of things like tension rods and hoops, etc. They would stock them.

Supply and Demand, Thats the first rule of economics.
The demand isn't there, so the supply isn't there.
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  #43  
Old 09-14-2010, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
Supply and Demand, Thats the first rule of economics.
The demand isn't there, so the supply isn't there.
But in GC's case, there is demand, and the supply isn't there. It's not just my experiences not finding what I need, I know a lot of people in the forums and in my drumming circle of friends and pros, who complain that they go into GC looking for something and can't find it.

It's not an issue that resulted from the recent economic downturn, this has been going on for years.

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  #44  
Old 09-14-2010, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
But in GC's case, there is demand, and the supply isn't there. It's not just my experiences not finding what I need, I know a lot of people in the forums and in my drumming circle of friends and pros, who complain that they go into GC looking for something and can't find it.

It's not an issue that resulted from the recent economic downturn, this has been going on for years.

Bermuda
If I want a snare throw, a cast hoop, or a lug for my vintage Gretsch kit, I don't go to GC or Sam Ash.
I look to a net store that specializes in this gear. I also look on eBay for used parts.

If I want calfskin heads, I go to a net store and I buy direct.

You, I, and discerning drummers know what we want and need. We also know where to get it.
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  #45  
Old 09-14-2010, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
There are only a few drummers that are seriously seeking high end gear.
There are thousands of drummers seeking the lower end gear.
The stores simply cater to their customers.

Sales flow dictates what they stock and sell.
Department managers review national sales flow data and they stock their store accordingly.
They will stock a few high end products just to have some in the store.
They have a budget that limits the inventory that they can carry and also sales goals to meet.

The overhead of operating a store is very high.
The stores have no choice.

Bottom Line,
If the stores were swamped with people wanting to buy all kinds of expensive drum gear and all sorts of things like tension rods and hoops, etc. They would stock them.

Supply and Demand, Thats the first rule of economics.
The demand isn't there, so the supply isn't there.
unfortunately you don't live anywhere near me. the demand IS here and it's not being fulfilled. we have 2 dedicated drum shops, thats all, they sell nothing more. one is so far away from any major metropolitan area it's not really an option for many people. we're talking an 8 hour drive from where the vast majority of people live in this state, it's actually closer to being in another state then this one. the other one has such a bad reputation that most musicians won't set foot in the door. we are left with 5 mom & pop shops that barely carry anything and only lower end stuff cuz they can't compete with gc and thats all they can afford to carry. 5 gc's in 30 minute drive from me, none carry a drum kit worth a crap. we're talking the lowest of the low here. i live 5 minutes from the biggest gc in the state, their drum department consists of 3 drum kits, a horizon, a forum and an accent, a mass of nick nacks scattered around the floor against the walls, a cymbal room that only has b8's, zht's and one little rack of used cymbals and mostly used b8's and zht's. your lucky to have a small selection of heads, last time i went to get heads for my snare i had to visit 3 different stores to get a genera dry and a 2 mil hazy, not cuz i had to have those 2 exact heads but becuase those were the only snare heads in all 3 stores.

you want anything higher then that you order it, period. i'm not saying we need a store to carry only top end stuff, lower end intermediate stuff would sell like crazy becuase nobody else here even stocks it. you had a stock of heads to where somebody could actually pick from 2 or 3 styles and enough sizes to outfit a standard 5 piece kit, maybe carry mid range cymbals, an xs20 or 2, maybe even an avedis here and there, a couple floor models of single pedals of various mid range pedals, hell i had to special order an iron cobra cuz "they don't stock higher end pedals". if the customers were treated decently and the prices were somewhat comptetitive to online stores i can garentee you would have more business then you could ever want.

gc is where preteen school kids go to get instruments they don't really want for school, then later can't sell on craigslist cuz it's too flooded with every other 8th grader trying to unload their crap. it is not where people who actually play for whatever reason go to shop for anything other then sticks and picks. we don't have a store that really caters to an actual musician and we desperetly need one.

some of you guys on here live next to amazing stores even if it is a few hours away. people ask for opinions and almost everybody says get your hands on them and play them before deciding, then i look around at the options i've been given to actually test drive any piece of equipment and laugh. where an i suppossed to test drive an axis pedal? iron cobras are too high end for here. where am i suppossed to go bang on bosphorus cymbals? i have a hard time even finding a b8 china. i guess i could swing by that one store to try out that new meridian birch jazz, oh wait thats too high end, they only carry the starter kits. god forbid i want a new half stack for my guitar, guess i could stack a few crate 2x12's on top of each other and pretend.

moral of the story, supply and demand is not the be all end all of the economic world. some companies choose to carry less and only the most "affordable" cuz they can turn stock quicker and their not out a ton of money of it doesn't sell, on to the next latest and greatest. it's a combination of many factors that play into a companies business model, economy, supply and demand, funding, profit, product turn around, shelf space, location, demographics, management, compatition, target cutomers, projected sales, past sales and the list goes on.

so yeah for my location and the people around here, yes that is the answer. give us a place to buy a pruduct we want at a decent price and we will infact.. buy.
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  #46  
Old 09-14-2010, 02:54 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

Let's face it, The store that we want doesn't exist!
It never will!
It would be a Fantasy Land if it did exist.
Can you imagine going to a drum shop that only had top gear!
No idiots behind the counter!
No, New-bee's in the aisles taking up our space.

How does that old Steely Dan tune go?
Oh Yea, "What A Wonderful World It Would Be"
A store filled with only the best of the best!
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  #47  
Old 09-14-2010, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
If I want a snare throw, a cast hoop, or a lug for my vintage Gretsch kit, I don't go to GC or Sam Ash.
I look to a net store that specializes in this gear. I also look on eBay for used parts.

If I want calfskin heads, I go to a net store and I buy direct.

You, I, and discerning drummers know what we want and need. We also know where to get it.
Of course. I don't expect the box stores to have that kind of stuff.

What I'm talking about is not being able to find enough Gibraltar rods or nice wires or a pair of hoops or a 6.5x14 generic bag for the used snare I just picked up. Those aren't specialty or vintage or obscure items, they're stock items. And this wasn't a one-time occurrence, it's happened enough times that I eventually ordered a bunch of rods, washers, wires, and at least one set of hoops for 13 & 14" snares, in 8 & 10 lug configurations. Don't get me started on trying to find Holz rings there.

How silly and costly that I need to keep new parts on hand because I can't rely on Guitar Center to have them.

Then again, you should see my parts drawers/containers/boxes/cases. It's amazing I need to leave the house at all. :)

Bermuda
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  #48  
Old 09-14-2010, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

it would indeed be a great day to have a store that always had exactly what you needed and always had plenty of it, all the newest gear was readily available. sadly your right bob, that will probably never happen. i would probably be forever broke if such a store did exist. i hate relying on the internet, ebay and craigslist for everything. but in it's own way the internet is that store, now if they could come up with some futuristic virtual reality version that you can try things out, i would be satisfied with that...
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  #49  
Old 09-14-2010, 04:49 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

I really think that the physical store as we know it will perish.
I think that advances in technology will make this possible.
We are standing at the threshold of this technology that will allow this to occur.

That is why we are so despondent at the moment.
We just have a glimpse of things to come.

The decline in the ability of retail stores to stock inventory will push technology to take things further.
It was just a little over a decade ago that the internet store consisted of just a written list of products that retail stores had to offer.
Now look at what we have!

This very web site was a dream just a few years ago!
Now look at it, and us, and where we are!
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  #50  
Old 09-14-2010, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I really think that the physical store as we know it will perish.
I think that advances in technology will make this possible.
We are standing at the threshold of this technology that will allow this to occur.

That is why we are so despondent at the moment.
We just have a glimpse of things to come.

The decline in the ability of retail stores to stock inventory will push technology to take things further.
It was just a little over a decade ago that the internet store consisted of just a written list of products that retail stores had to offer.
Now look at what we have!

This very web site was a dream just a few years ago!
Now look at it, and us, and where we are!
As older methods fade away, new ones spring forth to take their place. We all gotta roll with it.

It's funny, I just saw an internet article on how film is making a come back for photographers. Talk about a pipe dream! For the hard core enthusiasts it will remain, but the fact is, everyone has gone digital many times over by now. Certain processes are just meant to slowly fade away as millions of people turn to the new thing.

But the question that was asked of me by a colleague (much older, btw) was, "would you really want to go back?"

If the stores never really had everything, with the internet, it confirms that they don't need everything in stock. In a way, by not keeping stock, there must be some middle man that is eliminated keeping the price a little more reasonable, eh?

Sorry to state the obvious.
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  #51  
Old 09-14-2010, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I really think that the physical store as we know it will perish.
I think that advances in technology will make this possible.
We are standing at the threshold of this technology that will allow this to occur.

That is why we are so despondent at the moment.
I couldn't disagree more. Until the internet can provide instantly, a look, a touch, a feel and a listen it will only be a purchase portal. It relies on the brick and mortar stores to do all the work.
GC catered to the starving musician who was only looking for the best value (read here best price). A majority of musicians fell into the same mindset thinking that the best price is the best value. GC put a great many of independent music stores out of business is a false premise. Musicians put those independents out of business. I have no empathy for those who cry about GC. Those who are crying are just reaping the consequences of their own buying practices.
Done with rant.
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  #52  
Old 09-14-2010, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Of course. I don't expect the box stores to have that kind of stuff.
Bermuda
The retail environment is so dicey now. Whatever industry there is a big box store. They choose not to carry all that stuff because they know that most purchasers want to buy instantly and will, generally, settle for what is available at the lowest cost.Hence, the limited selection. (best sellers).
The industry I work in is no different. The way we compete (very successfully) is to provide a bigger selection (most of which are not available at the box stores), better service (which the majority of box stores have little to none) and knowledgable sales staff ( absent at most big boxers) These variables cost more to have and this is passed on to the consumer. The consumer will pay for it if they see value in it, if they have built a relationship with my staff and trust that the product and service will perform as promised.
There are many places a consumer has to spend their money. Most won't buy the most expensive or the least expensive either. They will buy where they feel they will get the best value.
Except drummers. they are cheap ba$trds.
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  #53  
Old 09-14-2010, 06:53 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by 0neyellowdrum View Post
I couldn't disagree more. Until the internet can provide instantly, a look, a touch, a feel and a listen it will only be a purchase portal. It relies on the brick and mortar stores to do all the work.
GC catered to the starving musician who was only looking for the best value (read here best price). A majority of musicians fell into the same mindset thinking that the best price is the best value. GC put a great many of independent music stores out of business is a false premise. Musicians put those independents out of business. I have no empathy for those who cry about GC. Those who are crying are just reaping the consequences of their own buying practices.
Done with rant.
really? huh, i had no idea i didn't know the difference between value and price. so even though the music store i frequented on a regular basis, guys who i'm still friends with, went out of business becuase of gc. the second store i went to also went out of business becuase of them, now i'm stuck with them becuase they're the only game in town anymore, it just so happens to be my fault. awesome! i guess i'm reaping the consequences of my buying practices for not shopping there till there was no place left.

i suppose your also going to try to tell me they didn't buy out their competition cuz they were biting too much into their sales by educating the customers, or that it's the musicians fault for them miseducating customers just to move product out the door, or pushing off used gear as new, or promising return policies on used gear even though they knew in advance there was no chance of it, or claiming when a return was justified that the customer "broke" the item just to avoid giving back the money, or advertising these huge sales every weekend even though the price had not changed at all. yep those are all perfectly legit business practices adn gc holds no blame in anything. it's all the musicians...

i spent a lot of money in that store, and had good relations with some of the people there. but damned if i'll get screwed and ripped off and then accept blame for it too. nonexistant emapthy noted and easily done without.
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  #54  
Old 09-14-2010, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

As hit on above, my big gripe with these chain stores is the lack of knowledge behind the counter. With the internet, shoppers can research and become aware of new products often before the salespeople know it's available. It's comical that the local GC drum "expert" can tell you more about what is I-phone does than what he's selling. Of course, that's true everywhere. Don't get me started on car salesman!
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  #55  
Old 09-14-2010, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by 0neyellowdrum View Post
I couldn't disagree more. Until the internet can provide instantly, a look, a touch, a feel and a listen it will only be a purchase portal. It relies on the brick and mortar stores to do all the work.
That's actually another very heated thread...

Quote:
GC catered to the starving musician who was only looking for the best value (read here best price). A majority of musicians fell into the same mindset thinking that the best price is the best value. GC put a great many of independent music stores out of business is a false premise. Musicians put those independents out of business. I have no empathy for those who cry about GC. Those who are crying are just reaping the consequences of their own buying practices.
I don't think anyone is crying about GC, just pointing out some of GC's issues that they (GC) also lament about.

The idea that GC has "the best price" is just silly. Apart from the occasional loss-leaders and discontinued items, and standard 50% off some consumables, their everyday prices are quite average and even high. Perhaps some of that is just a strategy for customers who want to ask for a better price, and then GC throws them a 10% bone. Recently, there was a supposed policy where department managers checked competitors' prices on a daily basis, and would print new tags to show that they matched (or beat) the lowest price a customer might find elsewhere. But I never saw any evidence of that.

And I don't know which other musicians have put independent stores out of business, but but certainly hasn't been me. I make a number of trips to my local GC because of proximity, and visit Sam Ash for the same reason. But I make an equal or greater amount of trips to various other small stores and drum shops, where I make more frequent purchases because they have a better selection and typically, better prices.

BTW, I have an excellent grasp on the difference between price and value, and I never automatically equate them. I always opt for the best value.

And although I have enough endorsements that you'd think I never need to walk into a store at all, I manage to spend a lot of money over the counter. So the state of retail and how some stores operate is important to me. It pains me to see the small shops fail, and GC not pick up the slack in the process (which right now is a real financial burden.) Neither is good for the musician.

Bermuda

Last edited by bermuda; 09-14-2010 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Clarifying...
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  #56  
Old 09-14-2010, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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I try to purchase from the local stores in my town because they are mom and pop type places not a national chain like GC. So if it costs me 5 bucks more I think its worth it. That being said I usually only talk to the owners because I can try to get them to lower the price on some stuff.
I second that. I pretty much shop at locally owned stores, a bit at the local GC if they have some gear I can't get anywhere else.

It is being a total douchebag to go into a store, try out the gear, then buy it from someone else online. Really, really bad and harmful to local businesses. Anyone who has a job can understand this.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

I tried this earlier, but I guess I did not make my point well. Suppose, Pearl would have a store, that really did not sell anything directly, but just showed the products to the people. Perhaps they had the ability to direct you to an online store where you could make the purchases. As musicians we need to touch the product once in a while that we are about to purchase. In this store, Pearl would be able to show their new product line, show off their older products, have complete control over the training of their staff.

Pearl would benefit from the accurate advertisement of their products. The UPS/ FEDEX trucks are just a day away. Personally I need to hear and feel the snare drum before I make a purchase. I can not tell from other drummer’s description of the snare how I will like it. Yes there are some products that are easy to describe, but for the most part, I need to touch it.

I believe this is the type of thing many of you were talking about when you said the stores will eventually change. This is the same concept as what used to be Sears catalog stores. The supply in the store could be limited to just demo items or an occasional sale item.
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  #58  
Old 09-15-2010, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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really? huh, i had no idea i didn't know the difference between value and price.
Sorry, I wasn't pointing a finger at any individual.

Quote:
so even though the music store i frequented on a regular basis, guys who i'm still friends with, went out of business becuase of gc.
Sorry for that. Please explain to me how GC put them out of business. Is it because an abundance of buyers quit shopping at the store you frequented?

Quote:
the second store i went to also went out of business becuase of them
Doubly sorry there.

Quote:
, now i'm stuck with them becuase they're the only game in town anymore, it just so happens to be my fault. awesome! i guess i'm reaping the consequences of my buying practices for not shopping there till there was no place left.
I think you are taking my rant way too personal. Not my intention.

Quote:
i suppose your also going to try to tell me they didn't buy out their competition
Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying GC paid these 2 stores to go out of business, sort of a business deal?


Quote:
i spent a lot of money in that store, and had good relations with some of the people there. but damned if i'll get screwed and ripped off and then accept blame for it too. nonexistant emapthy noted and easily done without
.

Look at why you spent ' a lot of money' in that store and ask yourself why you did not spend it with your friends store (some friend you are;) That may be a reason your 2 stores closed down. These 2 stores can't even get their friends to buy there.

Listen I am not out to denigrate anyone. Maybe my language was too strong and poor choice of words (cry) Sorry for that.
Peace
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  #59  
Old 09-15-2010, 03:31 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by evolving_machine View Post
I tried this earlier, but I guess I did not make my point well. Suppose, Pearl would have a store, that really did not sell anything directly, but just showed the products to the people. Perhaps they had the ability to direct you to an online store where you could make the purchases. As musicians we need to touch the product once in a while that we are about to purchase. In this store, Pearl would be able to show their new product line, show off their older products, have complete control over the training of their staff.

Pearl would benefit from the accurate advertisement of their products. The UPS/ FEDEX trucks are just a day away. Personally I need to hear and feel the snare drum before I make a purchase. I can not tell from other drummer’s description of the snare how I will like it. Yes there are some products that are easy to describe, but for the most part, I need to touch it.

I believe this is the type of thing many of you were talking about when you said the stores will eventually change. This is the same concept as what used to be Sears catalog stores. The supply in the store could be limited to just demo items or an occasional sale item.
This is exactly what I am talking about.
A store that only had demonstration merchandise.
A store that only had highly trained staff.
Of course, we would have to pay for this in the price of the products that we bought there.
Drum companies don't want to invest in this currently.
There simply aren't enough people buying drums and other musical instruments to warrant this.
Thats the problem, Apple can do this because there are many people that buy computers.
When you buy Apple you pay a high price for the product partially because of the store network that apple has.
There aren't enough people that buy Ludwig drums to justify having a Ludwig store, etc.
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  #60  
Old 09-15-2010, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by evolving_machine View Post
Suppose, Pearl would have a store, that really did not sell anything directly, but just showed the products to the people. Perhaps they had the ability to direct you to an online store where you could make the purchases. As musicians we need to touch the product once in a while that we are about to purchase. In this store, Pearl would be able to show their new product line, show off their older products, have complete control over the training of their staff.
An excellent idea, and they could even co-op with other non-competing companies (such as Sabian, Vic Firth, etc.)

The problem is of course, where do they set up such a showroom? How many would they have to set-up to accommodate enough people to make it worthwhile?

This is why there is a network of dealers, so that each company doesn't have to have a dedicated presence in every major market.

But I like the concept, and artists in the area could stop in and do demos, clinics, talk about the product. I'd be on board if Ludwig, Sabian, Evans or Vic Firth did that here in L.A.

Bermuda
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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I don't think anyone is crying about GC, just pointing out some of GC's issues that they (GC) also lament about.
You're right of course Poor choice of word.

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The idea that GC has "the best price" is just silly
.

Not disagreeing but how do you explain and marry that idea to all the arguments and comments regarding GC putting all the Mom+Pops out of business? If M+P's have better service, better educated staff, better return policies and better selection then why would anyone not buy from them and buy at GC instead?

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And I don't know which other musicians have put independent stores out of business, but but certainly hasn't been me. I make a number of trips to my local GC because of proximity, and visit Sam Ash for the same reason. But I make an equal or greater amount of trips to various other small stores and drum shops, where I make more frequent purchases because they have a better selection and typically, better prices.
As stated in my previous post, I am not pointing my finger at any individual.
My point is that GC cannot prosper unless they have an abundance of customers.People chose to shop there rather then at the local shop. The lack of customers, the choice of these customers is what closes down the M+P's
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BTW, I have an excellent grasp on the difference between price and value, and I never automatically equate them. I always opt for the best value.
I do, as well, and this is how real salespeople sell. Again, I was not pointing individual fingers. Sorry if you took it that way.

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It pains me to see the small shops fail, and GC not pick up the slack in the process (which right now is a real financial burden.) Neither is good for the musician.
I agree. The time is right for GC to step up their game.

Steve
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

i spent a lot of money at gc becuase as stated IT WAS THE ONLY STORE LEFT. hard for me to spend my money at my friends store when he's already out of business isn't it?

yeah some friend i was, i was the last guy out his door at closing time the last day he was open, i sat there for an hour watching him with his head in his hands asking what he was gonna do now with no source of income and having to pay off all the debt from the store.

yeah i take it a little personal...
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Bermuda, I have had this debate with the manager of the local George's Music Store numerous times...I'd love to be able to go in there and get a head I need or even to purchase a decent cymbal now and then but they only stock what I would consider beginner drum items, etc. I have asked the manager why they don't carry anything an experienced drummer would want and his reply is always, "they don't come in here", MY response is always "because we know you don't carry anything we want"...

I'm only 30 minutes outside of Philadelphia but to find a real drum shop I have to drive at least an hour and 1/2 to Harrisburg to go to Dale's Drum Shop, probably more drum items in that one store than the other stores in my area combined...

Don't know what the answer is...
I love Dale's drums. they are right up the street from me. I think they have the business model that all stores should follow. For one the store is owned by one of Buddy Rich's former drum techs and all the way down you have people who love drums. Some of them even give lessons.

I don't want to make this out to be an advertisement for them but they seriously got things down and have many repeat customers. GC is right up the rode, I seriously don't know how they even have a drum section.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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An excellent idea, and they could even co-op with other non-competing companies (such as Sabian, Vic Firth, etc.)

The problem is of course, where do they set up such a showroom? How many would they have to set-up to accommodate enough people to make it worthwhile?

This is why there is a network of dealers, so that each company doesn't have to have a dedicated presence in every major market.

But I like the concept, and artists in the area could stop in and do demos, clinics, talk about the product. I'd be on board if Ludwig, Sabian, Evans or Vic Firth did that here in L.A.

Bermuda
This has been done in other industries: Dell computers, Shaw flooring and Sears.
I don't know if Dell still operates this way, Shaw (the largest flooring manufacture in the USA) failed miserably and Sears thrives. I am not convinced this model would work for instruments. A brand specific store front is costly and would compete with it's bread and butter dealers. Shaw tried it nation wide. We threw them out because it did not make good business sense to compete with a supplier.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Not disagreeing but how do you explain and marry that idea to all the arguments and comments regarding GC putting all the Mom+Pops out of business? If M+P's have better service, better educated staff, better return policies and better selection then why would anyone not buy from them and buy at GC instead?
People evidently think GC has the best prices. they assume it. Just like everyone assumes WalMart has the best prices. Some stuff, yes, some stuff, no. So people gravitate towards GC and Sam Ash thinking that since they have the buying power, their prices must be low. A perfect example is Best Buy, who has probably the most ironic name in the business.

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My point is that GC cannot prosper unless they have an abundance of customers.People chose to shop there rather then at the local shop. The lack of customers, the choice of these customers is what closes down the M+P's
GC hasn't prospered for some time, but I'll agree that they tend to have the abundance of customers (mostly for the reason I stade above.) I can't say that all of those customers got the value they probably wanted. But yes, the small shops suffered, but it's not like they weren't trying to compete. The ones that did are mostly still hanging in there. The ones that didn't went under, and probably wondered why.

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I agree. The time is right for GC to step up their game.
Yes.

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Old 09-16-2010, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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This is exactly what I am talking about.
A store that only had demonstration merchandise.
A store that only had highly trained staff.
Of course, we would have to pay for this in the price of the products that we bought there.
Drum companies don't want to invest in this currently.
There simply aren't enough people buying drums and other musical instruments to warrant this.
Thats the problem, Apple can do this because there are many people that buy computers.
When you buy Apple you pay a high price for the product partially because of the store network that apple has.
There aren't enough people that buy Ludwig drums to justify having a Ludwig store, etc.

The drum manufactures are able to make a profit by selling to the chain stores like GC and the Sam Ash, why could they not make a profit showing their products directly to the public? The chain stores have their mark up in price from what they purchase the product.

These show-case stores would not be in every location. The show-case stores do not need to sell anything, except perhaps an occasional purging of their demo models. Since the internet is doing very well and allowing all of us to shop for the best price, the show-case store will just let us, touch and feel the equipment before we make the purchase.

Personally I have been looking forward to going to Dale's drums shop, which is a three and a half hour drive for me. I would certainly make the same trip to one of these show-case shops. My goal in going to Dale’s drum shop is to see what is available and compare products. Dale’s drum shop would have to allow me to compare the prices on the internet when I get home, and then if their prices are better I will make the purchase from Dale’s over the internet. When I arrive at Dale’s, I may be ignorant of competitive prices for something I see there that I like. I assume, I will feel a little pressure, most likely, to make a purchases there. This is just the nature of the business, Dale’s is a retail shop.

When I arrive at the show-case shop, I will not be under pressure to purchase there, because the Pearl, Gretsch, Ludwig or another manufacturer will benefit from a sale through the internet at any place I make the purchase. Unlike the apple stores, these show-case stores really do not have to sell anything. The apple stores also offer a repair shop.
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Old 09-16-2010, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Unlike the apple stores, these show-case stores really do not have to sell anything. The apple stores also offer a repair shop.
While they wouldn't have to sell anything, they would still have to be staffed with trained employees, equipped, supplied, pay taxes and do everything else that a store does. In most cases, people want to be able to check out a wide selection of drums from different manufacturers. Store locations are enormously expensive to operate and they can only get by if they can generate enough traffic to justify their existence - even if it's just to trigger online sales. So far, the only way to do that is to have dedicated retailers who make a buck off drums, mics, cables, guitar picks, books, amps and anything else you could name.
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:24 AM
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While they wouldn't have to sell anything, they would still have to be staffed with trained employees, equipped, supplied, pay taxes and do everything else that a store does. In most cases, people want to be able to check out a wide selection of drums from different manufacturers. Store locations are enormously expensive to operate and they can only get by if they can generate enough traffic to justify their existence - even if it's just to trigger online sales. So far, the only way to do that is to have dedicated retailers who make a buck off drums, mics, cables, guitar picks, books, amps and anything else you could name.
Look at how much a manufacturer spends on introducing a new product. Let us take for example the Pearl Demon drive. They had trained Pearl personnel visit every one of their distributors to make sure they understood how to sell and use the product. How much is advertising worth now? Well in the olden days before the internet, it was very hard to track down and equate the cost of how much a TV commercial was worth to the sale of a product. Now with computers to calculate, track and monitor these costs, manufacturers could easily see if it was worth it.

These show-case stores do not have to be devoted to just one brand of musical instrument either. Nor, do they have to be devoted to just one type of musical instrument.

There were several store fronts that used to exist to just test how consumers felt about products. I used to see these in the malls. They had college kids, and house wives confront you when you came into the malls. They had regular people write reviews about new products. I never paid attention to that stuff, but obviously in the days before computers and the internet, and everyone Googling each other, it was hard to track sales figures. These stores did not generate anything except data for the manufactures of the test products.

These are just the details to making something like this work. It seems to be the alternative to the GC’s and Sam Ash stores. Hopefully, I will see the end of them in my lifetime.

Evolving Machine
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:48 PM
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Look at how much a manufacturer spends on introducing a new product. Let us take for example the Pearl Demon drive. They had trained Pearl personnel visit every one of their distributors to make sure they understood how to sell and use the product. How much is advertising worth now? Well in the olden days before the internet, it was very hard to track down and equate the cost of how much a TV commercial was worth to the sale of a product. Now with computers to calculate, track and monitor these costs, manufacturers could easily see if it was worth it.

These show-case stores do not have to be devoted to just one brand of musical instrument either. Nor, do they have to be devoted to just one type of musical instrument.

There were several store fronts that used to exist to just test how consumers felt about products. I used to see these in the malls. They had college kids, and house wives confront you when you came into the malls. They had regular people write reviews about new products. I never paid attention to that stuff, but obviously in the days before computers and the internet, and everyone Googling each other, it was hard to track sales figures. These stores did not generate anything except data for the manufactures of the test products.

These are just the details to making something like this work. It seems to be the alternative to the GC’s and Sam Ash stores. Hopefully, I will see the end of them in my lifetime.

Evolving Machine
That sounds like an interesting concept and it might work. The closest I've seen to this are specialty stores for one instrument type: Stores just for guitars, just for drums, just for violins, just for brass.

So would several manufacturers get together and jointly run the kind of store you are talking about? Or would they hire someone to run it for them? Some manufacturers, like Yamaha, could easily fill a store just with their own stuff - pianos, drums, guitars, electronics, saxophones, violins. Would they sell accessories, like sticks and guitar picks and heads and strings and reeds? What if a customer liked an instrument so much, they wanted to buy it on the spot? That would help the bottom line, but after a certain point, you would have a traditional music store once again. A lot of manufacturers have agreements to only sell through retailers, so they retailers wouldn't like this. If someone wanted to just try something out, the store could direct them to online or local sellers who could provide the goods.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:18 AM
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So would several manufacturers get together and jointly run the kind of store you are talking about? Or would they hire someone to run it for them? Some manufacturers, like Yamaha, could easily fill a store just with their own stuff - pianos, drums, guitars, electronics, saxophones, violins. Would they sell accessories, like sticks and guitar picks and heads and strings and reeds? What if a customer liked an instrument so much, they wanted to buy it on the spot? That would help the bottom line, but after a certain point, you would have a traditional music store once again. A lot of manufacturers have agreements to only sell through retailers, so they retailers wouldn't like this. If someone wanted to just try something out, the store could direct them to online or local sellers who could provide the goods.
These stores would be “show-case” stores. They would not really sell anything, except an occasional over-used demo model that received too much attention from the locals. So selling used equipment would not interfere with the contract, if any, for the exclusive retail rights to an area.

The stores would show the products that the manufacturer does or does not sell at the GCs or the SAs stores because the GCs and SAs buy in bulk to get the discount and only have a limited inventory. Of course, there would be an occasion where the GCs and SAs happen to make a choice to sell an item that is also being displayed at the “show-case” store.

The consumer would then go on the internet and make the purchase. Unfortunately, the emergency guitar string, drum head or drum stick would have to wait for the UPS/ FedEx driver to arrive.

However, the “show-case” stores would be great for allowing drummers to see Aquarian heads because the local GCs and SAs usually only carry Remo or Evans.

It would be beneficial to have several manufactures use these “show-case” stores at one time. How do we get competing manufactures to use one store, I do not know. However, they all get together to show their wares in trade shows, and this would not be much different from that except they would be open all year. These are just details.
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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The consumer would then go on the internet and make the purchase. Unfortunately, the emergency guitar string, drum head or drum stick would have to wait for the UPS/ FedEx driver to arrive.
This is where I disagree with the showcase idea... how hard would it be for the showcase store to stock these common breakable items? This would also address the income issue to some extent.
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Old 09-18-2010, 08:05 PM
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This is where I disagree with the showcase idea... how hard would it be for the showcase store to stock these common breakable items? This would also address the income issue to some extent.
By the way, thanks for reading and contributing to the thread, everyone.

The purpose of the show-case stores is to provide a way for the manufactures to show off their products. To show off things that most of the local stores do not carry. There will always be a place to buy a stick, or a head. There are local stores that offer lessons and the stick or head. But, we have seen from the discussions earlier that if I break a part on my pedel, the local stores do not carry the replacement parts, so we are back to the UPS/ FedEx special order.

To the manufacturer the show-case store would be very good advertising. The show-case stores could have discount coupons that are distributed at the show-case stores when the customer purchases online. This would then show how well the show-case stores are effective in showing off the products.

Sears used to have catalog stores, where the customers could order at the catalog store. Everything came through the mail. Occasionally the catalog store would act as a place to deliver the items to, it would be a temporary post office for the items.

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Old 09-30-2010, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

The last time I was GC I tried to buy a couple of mic cables. I walked up to the cashier and placed them on the counter. The cashier asked if I needed anythng else, and I said no thanks.

15 minutes later they were still trying to figure out how to ring them up. I was getting agitated. One of the sales guys looks at me and says patience is a virture. I looked back and said "So is competence."

I just walked out.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:45 AM
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The last time I was GC I tried to buy a couple of mic cables. I walked up to the cashier and placed them on the counter. The cashier asked if I needed anythng else, and I said no thanks.

15 minutes later they were still trying to figure out how to ring them up. I was getting agitated. One of the sales guys looks at me and says patience is a virture. I looked back and said "So is competence."

I just walked out.
The people they hire at GC don't seem to be the brightest. But, that is not the reason why we go there, we go for the free beer.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:41 AM
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The purpose of the show-case stores is to provide a way for the manufactures to show off their products.
So, how many "show case stores" do you want. One in Los Angeles ... one in New York? One in "every" large US city? There is no way these stores would ever pay for themselves. With 12 + NAMM shows under my belt, I can tell you that manufactures are "downsizing", and have been, year after year. The "glory" days of 1994 are ... gone ... 16 years gone.
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However, they all get together to show their wares in trade shows, and this would not be much different from that except they would be open all year. These are just details.
Yeah, you have a lot of very "expensive" details, you need to hammer out.
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To the manufacturer the show-case store would be very good advertising. The show-case stores could have discount coupons that are distributed at the show-case stores when the customer purchases online. This would then show how well the show-case stores are effective in showing off the products.
A manufacture doesn't need to count coupons, to know how many high-end kits they sold. They have bookkeepers/accountants that tell them "how much profit they're making, or not.
For that matter, why would Yamaha, Pearl, and Tama even "want" to throw money away, in the US. The new markets, India ... and China ... that's where Japan ... and a lot of US manufactures, are turning their attention to. It's probably gonna take the US 10 years, to dig itself out of the hole it's in.
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Old 10-02-2010, 02:02 AM
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So, how many "show case stores" do you want. One in Los Angeles ... one in New York? One in "every" large US city? There is no way these stores would ever pay for themselves. With 12 + NAMM shows under my belt, I can tell you that manufactures are "downsizing", and have been, year after year. The "glory" days of 1994 are ... gone ... 16 years gone.
Yeah, you have a lot of very "expensive" details, you need to hammer out.
A manufacture doesn't need to count coupons, to know how many high-end kits they sold. They have bookkeepers/accountants that tell them "how much profit they're making, or not.
For that matter, why would Yamaha, Pearl, and Tama even "want" to throw money away, in the US. The new markets, India ... and China ... that's where Japan ... and a lot of US manufactures, are turning their attention to. It's probably gonna take the US 10 years, to dig itself out of the hole it's in.
I am not sure you understand the purpose of what I am proposing. It is an alternative to the Guitar Centers and the Sam Ash chain stores that buy in bulk and only have in their stores what they get in a large volume discounts.

Yes, I have not thought out all the permutations and all the possibilities of what this would look like; I am making a proposal as an alternative. This is not a thesis paper, nor is it a business plan; it is a discussion amongst fellow drummers. The details are not really hard to work out provided some of the large manufactures would take on this endeavor. But, if you like the current situation, you do not need to be upset at this proposal and please go on with your life when you go into a Guitar Center and they do not have any of the products you are looking for, or they try to sell you a year’s supply of soap.

I did not think of the show-case stores when I first started this post. It was after I saw so many fellow drummers that were frustrated with their own Guitar Centers that I asked myself what could be done differently. Now, if you can come up with a better solution for an alternative to the Guitar Centers, I will not hold back and fight you on it.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:24 AM
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I am not sure you understand the purpose of what I am proposing.
I disagree. I think I understand perfectly ... your proposal.
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It is an alternative to the Guitar Centers and the Sam Ash chain stores that buy in bulk and only have in their stores what they get in a large volume discounts.
Sure, you conjure up an alternative. But is it viable? I don't think so. It's a nice "pipe dream", but by no means a "realistic" commercial venture.
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Yes, I have not thought out all the permutations and all the possibilities of what this would look like; I am making a proposal as an alternative. This is not a thesis paper, nor is it a business plan; it is a discussion amongst fellow drummers.
And so I put forth my opinion, as part of this discussion. I am entitled to have an opinion, am I not?
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The details are not really hard to work out provided some of the large manufactures would take on this endeavor.
Taking care of the details is the only way you turn "dreams" into "reality".[
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But, if you like the current situation,
I really don't have to like, or dislike, the current situation. The only thing I need to do is accept it for what it is.
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you do not need to be upset at this proposal and please go on with your life [
Now you're just being condescending.
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I did not think of the show-case stores when I first started this post. It was after I saw so many fellow drummers that were frustrated with their own Guitar Centers that I asked myself what could be done differently. Now, if you can come up with a better solution for an alternative to the Guitar Centers, I will not hold back and fight you on it.
One of the "main" problems with Guitar Center, is the company that owns them also owns Musicians Friend and Music 123. So if you don't like the service you get, in the store ... you go on line ... and there's a good chance you're still gonna buy the item from them. You're shopping from the same store, different window.
Musical instruments, in and of themselves, are mostly "luxury" items. And as such, if they stopped making drums tomorrow, the world would continue, without so much as missing a beat. I've been drumming for 43 years, and I have never yet experienced anything close to a life threatening, drum equipment problem.
Sure, I've experienced a few "inconvieniences" over the years. But that's all they've been.
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Old 10-02-2010, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

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Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
I disagree. I think I understand perfectly ... your proposal.
I am sorry to say Harry, that if you are suggesting to just purchase on the web, you do not understand the purpose of what I am suggesting here.

It is easy to purchase on the web. I was looking for a new snare drum, either I take a chance and purchase on the web without knowing what the product sounds and feels like, or I can visit a store and see the snare drums.

I am now looking for a new kit. I like the Pearl Reference from what I have seen on the web, the Pearl lifetime warranty and the workmanship I may go that route. But, I am taking a chance, because I can not seem to find them in any of the stores within an hour and a half from here. I would gladly travel three hours just to check out this set before I make the purchase.

Musical instruments are different from other large ticket purchases. There are subtle differences in the products that make it desirable or not to the customer. A car, I think is easier to purchase on the web. However I do not recommend buying one without actually touching the exact model you plan to purchase.

I do apologize if you feel I was being condescending. But that was not the intent or the effect I was after.
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Old 10-03-2010, 11:03 AM
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azrae1l azrae1l is offline
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Location: denver, colorado, usa
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

i like your ideas but i would have to agree with harry. just from a business standpoint, if you were to only put one store in each capital city, that's 50 stores from a distributing company with over head for a large store to house each of their own lines. for a company like pearl that's a lot of drum kits in varying models and styles along with all their side products like racks and pedals, stands and what not. that could easily fill a store larger then your average guitar center, maybe twice as large, to sell absolutely nothing. that's a lot of overhead to not sell a product at all. your talking 10's of thousands each month for each store to not sell a thing, not to mention the cost of the products your going to house in these stores, wear and tear on these products and upkeep, the amount of money in heads alone, cymbals, broken parts, staffing. look at 1 high end kit alone, you could easily spend 3-4 g's on a shell pack, hardware, cymbals, heads, sticks, you could reach 6 g's easily. then you need 1 of each kind of wood, that could be 5 or 6 types of shells. multiply that by 50 stores, that's only one line your over 1.5 million and that's just the drum kits. granted thats not what these kits cost the manufacturer but that's 1.5 million in potential profits lost on nothing. then you could have 5-10 lines plus all the side products plus labor, plus overhead. your talking a tremendous amount of money and goods to compete with stores already carrying your products and doing all your sales for you for free. granted this might pick up sales a little but not nearly enough to recoup what they lost in supplying these products alone. now you talk about competing companies going in together to house all their products with no sales, sorry but that's just not going to happen. no company actually wants a side by side comparison on their products vs. another company of equal standing. tama, yamaha, gretsch and pearl will NEVER concede to work together to be able to compete with each other,invest all this money and product to not make a sale and still compete and still using the same sales staff to give you a coupon to get their products cheaper then what they are currently selling them for for free.

i'll concede i think the idea of such a store is a fabulous idea and i would drive hours to a store i knew had exactly what i wanted on hand for me to try, even if i already knew i had to order it online. i would still get to touch it and see it and make up my mind instead of buying blindly based on hear-say. i honestly wish such a store existed, i would be there every free minute i had, but from a business aspect this is just not cost effective or practical by any means and these businesses are here to make money not to please us. as much as these companies make it sound like we matter and we're important, we don't and we're not. our money matters and their not going to spend more money to make a little when they can do nothing for it for free. they have other companies competing to carry their lines by making more sales for free. mapex i know for a fact requires a minimum of sales for their top lines just to remain a dealer, we're talking orions not horizons here. if you don't sell a certain amount of orions, their top of the line kits, per year they drop you as a dealer and it costs them nothing. these stores come to them and make sales in return for a piece of the profit and your talking about making all the work the work of the supplier when they now get it for nothing, actually having people throw themselves at them to carry their products. if you sold lollipop, would you spend $100 to showcase your suckers when 1000 other people want to do it for you for free?

it really is a good idea just not realistic by any means........





wow, all that while extremely drunk? i surprise myself sometimes............
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  #80  
Old 10-03-2010, 01:57 PM
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harryconway harryconway is offline
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Default Re: Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evolving_machine View Post
I am sorry to say Harry, that if you are suggesting to just purchase on the web, you do not understand the purpose of what I am suggesting here.
See, this is just a base flaw, in the forum type thang. You want to buy a Pearl Reference drum set ... maybe ..... and it only took us up to post #78, to get to that point. Certainly, no harm, no foul, that's just the way the system works, sometimes.
Azrae1l see's where I'm coming from. When reality ... and our "wishful thinking" just don't match up at all.
So now, we can forget all about this..."Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores."
And we can forget all about this... "These show-case stores would not be in every location."
Now we can go here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evolving_machine View Post
I like the Pearl Reference from what I have seen on the web, the Pearl lifetime warranty and the workmanship I may go that route. But, I am taking a chance, because I can not seem to find them in any of the stores within an hour and a half from here.
Probably tru that. I live in Los Angeles, and I don't think I could find a Reference kit, set up, for me to demo. I've heard them. I've played them. If I wanted to buy one, I'd probably find one used on eBay, and save a boatload of money. The last time I saw a "gently used" Reference kit at the local Guitar Center, they wanted $1899, for a 4 piece kit. Not a bad price. You can "search" on line for "used" Guitar Center gear. If you have a Guitar Center near you, they could "probably" ship any kit to any store.
They're nice kits, just not my cup-o-tea, so to speak. That's why I drive a 30 year old Ludwig kit (that cost me $1100) and a 17 year old Yamaha Recording Custom kit (that cost me $995). I hope you do buy "your" Pearl Reference kit, and post pictures of it.
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