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  #1  
Old 08-18-2010, 07:56 PM
dpk204 dpk204 is offline
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Default Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I've used, B8 and Sabian Pro and they obviously sound different than cast bronze cymbals. I was at guitarcenter the other day and I played a pair of 2002 medium hi hats and I was amazed at their sound. I thought the chick sound was incredible and the sticking was great.

I always thought that they were made from some special alloy but I understand that they are made from B8 alloy. Why do they sound so good?

Do you like them?

Also do you think $199 for a pair of medium hi hats is a good deal also $199 for a matching medium ride?

I recently sold my Sabian Pro line and am in the market for some cymbals. I had budgeted for an Avedis pre pack with the 16 and 18inch crashes (which we discussed earlier) but after hearing the 2002's, I just might go for those.

Any thoughts?
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Paiste 2002s sound great. I think it's not the alloy copper to tin ratio so much as the hammering and lathing that defines their sound.

Usually Paistes are brighter than B20 bronze but that's certainly not always the case.

A 2002 ride and 18" and 19" 2002 crashes with some sound edge hats are a great choice. Not really jazzy but so what.
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Paiste does the manufacturing to make them sound that way. Paiste spends much more on those B8 cymbals than Sabian and the others. Well, Meinl makes very good B8 cymbals too. It all depends on the hammering, lathing, ect. Peace and goodwill.
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  #4  
Old 08-19-2010, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I am a HUGE Paiste 2002 fan...........I love them. I had a 2002 Power Ride but Sold it as I got a chance to buy Paiste rhythmatist Blue Bell Ride (Stewart Copelands Ride) so I snapped it up.

I have a 18" 2002 Power Crash and I love it. Best Crash I've ever owned......so impressed I've just sold my 18" Signature Power Crash to buy another 2002 Crash

Just need enough dollars to sell my Signature Heavy Hi-Hats to buy some SoundEdge hats
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  #5  
Old 08-20-2010, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I think everyone that has commented here has answered your question pretty well and I really have nothing technical to add to their comments about how they are made or why they sound so good. However, that will never keep me from speaking up! Seriously, as a n00b drummer in the mid 70's---yes, I'm that old!--I remember my girlfriends dad bought a killer stereo with some high end German speakers---forget the name of them now--and the first thing she and I put on the turntable was some Emerson, Lake, and Palmer. I swear to God I heard things from that stereo I had never heard before and the most telling was Carl Palmers Paiste cymbals. There was only Zildjian and Paiste at that time (?) and they simply sounded so much better than anything we'd heard before. If I ever hit the lottery, it's Sonors, Evans, and Paiste all around. I believe they make the finest cymbals in the world. Many recording engineers will testify to that as well. Good luck with your purchases.
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  #6  
Old 08-20-2010, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpk204 View Post

Also do you think $199 for a pair of medium hi hats is a good deal also $199 for a matching medium ride?
New 14" 2002 hats presently list for $562. So if you can get a new 14" (or 13") pair for $200, that is well over 50% off. If they're 15" hats, even better. To answer your question directly, Yes... That's a fantastic deal. If they're used, then it is still a fair price, if they're in very good overall condition. The price for the ride seems fair too. IMO.
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  #7  
Old 08-21-2010, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

The Paiste 2002s were the top of the Paiste line back in the day. Sabian B8s are decidedly, not top of the line. There's a definite difference in manufacturing regardless of metal used.

My Guitar Center had a 2002 24" ride in stock, and I swear, now I realize why John Bonham played a 24". If only my cymbal bag could carry a 24" cymbal....
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Old 08-21-2010, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Thanks for the replies. I knew when I played those 2002 medium hats, that they were something special. I'm just deciding between the medium and the sound edge. I saw that 24" Bonham ride too...it's a beast.

Somebody once told me that Paiste 2002's were not good "all around" cymbals and that they were meant for heavily amplified music and they were meant to be hit hard.
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Old 08-21-2010, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Originally Posted by dpk204 View Post
Somebody once told me that Paiste 2002's were not good "all around" cymbals and that they were meant for heavily amplified music and they were meant to be hit hard.
Well, it seems that Paiste marketed 2oo2s for rock and amplified music, but I use my 2oo2s in quiet situations a lot. I think they're far more versatile than many give them credit for. They are great and durable and can take a beating from the hard hitters. Take a light stick and hit them lightly and you still have a great sounding cymbal for quieter music. Since I use my 2oo2s for lighter music, I use smaller sizes and thin to medium models and stay away from the big and heavy or power models (although I do own a 2oo2 Power ride just in case I ever need the volume).
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Old 08-21-2010, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

When the 2002's came out, they were meant to compete with Zildjian A's - which was pretty much all you could get at the time (this is the '70s). I think the adjectives about the music they were meant for are really just, adjectives.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

My 2002 18" Power Crash sounds amazing with rocket sticks when we play acoustic, and awesome when we are fully cranked............give me them over Zildjian any day
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  #12  
Old 08-23-2010, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I hadn't played an acoustic kit for many years and when I got dug my old 2002's out of the loft, I though after so many years they'd be dated and that new ones would sound much better the local shop let me take home a few cymbals to try an AAX Stage Ride, AAX Stage Crash and a Zildjian Crash - I ended up taking them both back as they just didn't compete with my medium 2002 crash and Heavy Ride which are 30 years old!!
When I sold my kit years ago stupidly I let the 2002 sound edge HH's go with it, when I bought my new kit 1 1/2 yrs ago 2002's were on a clear out offer for 169, I bought those as they seemd like a good deal and recently took then into the local shop and tried out Zildjian Avendis and K's. AAX Stage and quite a few others, the only ones I may possibly have preferred were Meinl Byance but there so was so little in it it didn't justify the cost of changing.
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

In the late 70s and 80s (I'm that old too) I had a 2002 22" ride and 16" crash, playing rock. I was very satisfied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruok
Well, it seems that Paiste marketed 2oo2s for rock and amplified music, but I use my 2oo2s in quiet situations a lot. I think they're far more versatile than many give them credit for. They are great and durable and can take a beating from the hard hitters. Take a light stick and hit them lightly and you still have a great sounding cymbal for quieter music. Since I use my 2oo2s for lighter music, I use smaller sizes and thin to medium models and stay away from the big and heavy or power models (although I do own a 2oo2 Power ride just in case I ever need the volume).
When I started up again last year I bought another 16" 2002 crash. Great cymbal - gorgeous, shimmery overtones, but I found it too bright for the lounge-y stuff I'm now playing.

I'm preferring darker cymbals for low volume playing because they are a bit more forgiving if I have an oops moment and open the cymbal up too much. You might have fewer oops moment than I do :)
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  #14  
Old 08-23-2010, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I don't know what it is about the 2oo2's but I have been playing them on and off since around 1980.
They have a truly unique sound that I never get tired of.

I also play Zild K's and Agop's and I like them a great deal.

At least two or three times a week I find myself setting some of my 2oo2's on my stands and lovin them.

I will never part with my Paiste's.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Yes there is something to be said about the 2oo2s. The cymbals sound great and look great with the red labels. I had another B8 cymbal set, the Paiste PST5. I added a 2oo2 18" crash and couldn't wait to upgrade the rest of my cymbals to the 2oo2 line.
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  #16  
Old 01-02-2014, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I think that it's all about the type of Copper they use.
B8 broze consists (mainly) on 92% Copper ad 8% Tin, BUT Copper in it's natural state comes with Silver. A very famous-worldwide known drummer told me that he moved from a big brand to another when he started to break cymbals as a mad. He met a metal speciallist that told him that the brand he was using didn't have silver anymore on their cymbals. They take it out. So, my theory is that Paiste's 2002 alloy is not just Copper and Tin, but also Silver.
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  #17  
Old 01-02-2014, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I'm pretty sure it's the same B8 formula...that's what makes it a B8.

The reason for the difference in sound is because 2002's a are cast individually and to a very strict quality control. Were as the Sabians, like most student cymbals, are cut from a sheet of B8 bronze and pressed into the shape of a cymbal before lathing.
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  #18  
Old 01-03-2014, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
The Paiste 2002s were the top of the Paiste line back in the day. Sabian B8s are decidedly, not top of the line. There's a definite difference in manufacturing regardless of metal used.

My Guitar Center had a 2002 24" ride in stock, and I swear, now I realize why John Bonham played a 24". If only my cymbal bag could carry a 24" cymbal....
It's what 24" bass drum cases, foam sheet, and towels, were invented for...they fit a 24" cymbal inside like a glove I've discovered :-)
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot View Post
I'm pretty sure it's the same B8 formula...that's what makes it a B8.

The reason for the difference in sound is because 2002's a are cast individually and to a very strict quality control. Were as the Sabians, like most student cymbals, are cut from a sheet of B8 bronze and pressed into the shape of a cymbal before lathing.
I think this is the most defining answer to this 1,234 day old question! It was past due for the obligatory "YOU DO REALIZE THIS THREAD IS 3 1/2 YEARS OLD?!?!?!" (I too, like old threads about PAISTE)

Also, consider metallurgy i.e. the process of blending the alloy e.g. the temperatures, cooling rate etc... when comparing to other brands and model lines.

I started with no-name cymbals at first, graduated to Zildjian A's until I bought some black label 2002 15" heavy hi-hats (they're inked with the word ROCK on them) in the seventies and they just sounded better than anything else. I bought an 18" 2002 crash in the early eighties which led me to abandon Zildjian completely. I added a 16" Rude crash/ride when they first came out and it's been full on Paiste for me. Their consistency in sound and quality is amazing and they sound fabulous.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Because they can :)
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:15 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

I am just glad to see that 2002 crashes also won the hearts of other people like they did to me :).

I got onto 2002 crashes back in 2003, was at a music store which stocked 99% Sabian, and I was just going up and down each column hitting each crash to find one I liked. Hit one, went ... "THAT'S IT!!" Hit it again, looked at the label. Paiste 2002 16" crash. Couldn't believe it :).

I've pretty much been a Paiste man since that day, I've owned 16", 18" and 19" 2002 crashes, Signature and Giant Beat crashes, but the 2002 series will always hold a special place in my heart now that I've moved on in how I want to sound :).
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Originally Posted by pedrum View Post
I think that it's all about the type of Copper they use.
B8 broze consists (mainly) on 92% Copper ad 8% Tin, BUT Copper in it's natural state comes with Silver. A very famous-worldwide known drummer told me that he moved from a big brand to another when he started to break cymbals as a mad. He met a metal speciallist that told him that the brand he was using didn't have silver anymore on their cymbals. They take it out. So, my theory is that Paiste's 2002 alloy is not just Copper and Tin, but also Silver.
Zildjian admits to traces of silver beind ADDED to their B-20 cast cymbals.Copper and silver are both in group 11 on the pereodic table,but are different metals,and are no found in alloy form.An alloy is what yo get by combining one or more matals.

Silver is a precious metal,and if there was any of it in copper,it would be smelted out.

Cymbal makers are very tight lipped and deliberate about their alloy formulas,so taking a chance on just how much silver was in the copper they use(if they use it) is just WAY too much happenstance.

Pure copper is just that,pure copper .

I think your drummer friend,who ever he is,is mistaken.

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Old 01-04-2014, 01:46 AM
iwearnohats iwearnohats is offline
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

They all use traces of silver because it helps to harden the cymbals.

Too much and they will lose their musicality.
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  #24  
Old 01-04-2014, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

The 2002 16" crash has always been my favorite. I just happen to see too many cracked Paistes. I would really like some Paiste cymbals, but I can't afford tho get the ones I really like.

I did, however, manage to get my hands on a 20" Zildjian Amir crash which is from the early 80's. The Amirs are also B8 alloy and it is the best sounding crash in my collection, which includes a 19" AAXplosion and a 16" AAX dark crash. From what I heard, the first Amir line (which was replaced by the lesser quality Amir II line, then Scimitar after that), was originally developed to compete with the Paiste 2002 line of cymbals which were I guess developed to compete with the Zildjian A line (?). I don't know, but if you can get you hands on an early AMIR (with capital letters), then go for it. That is, if you like the 2002's sound.
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Originally Posted by iwearnohats View Post
They all use traces of silver because it helps to harden the cymbals.

Too much and they will lose their musicality.
I'm a geologist, and metallurgist, and none of this is correct for a variety of reasons.
In fact silver is softer than copper anyway.

There is likely varying purity of all alloys. In other words, all metals, in cymbals, bumpers,,,,,even the gold ring you propose to your wife with, can have 'traces of silver'.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

2002, to my ears, have a sweetly piercing timbre to their initial attack that cuts and then a smooth and even decay that has just enough meat emitting from the bell character of the cymbal which is well mixed with the wash. I'm talking the crash weight saucers here.

On top of that, when you hit them they feel great....a bit firmer than a K but more " cushiony" and crisp feeling than most other similar weight units.

Once I got my first 2002, I stopped buying any other type of cymbal except K....the 2002 is the sound in my head.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:05 AM
iwearnohats iwearnohats is offline
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

In that case, I stand corrected. I haven't done any reading on cymbals in years so it's quite likely I got my facts mixed up :)
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

My feeling is that when a cymbal company says 'traces' of silver it's all a bunch of hype. "Ooooh, there's precious metal in my cymbal....must be valuable!"

As a jeweller and metals kinda guy I have alloyed all sorts of precious and non-precious metals and I'll tell ya, 'traces' means nothing, especially in something the size of a cymbal. Silver and gold can only be marketed as 'pure' at 99.99% because it is almost impossible to make it 100%...to take out that .01%, or 'trace' of other metal. This doesn't change the fact that for all intents and purposes that it is 'pure'.

So let's say that there is between .01 to .1% of silver in a cymbal. This amount would have absolutely no impact on the molecular structure of the cymbal because, according to the literature I have, that amount cannot saturate throughout the copper/tin matrix. There simply are not enough atoms available to impact or influence change in the alloy's structure.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Paiste 2002 cymbals are sweet! They're definitely on the louder side though. If they ever make thinner models in that line, I'll be picking some up.

The Alex VanHalen ride is amazing.

I'd love a 2002 flat ride too!
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:38 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Originally Posted by sonnygrabber View Post
My feeling is that when a cymbal company says 'traces' of silver it's all a bunch of hype. "Ooooh, there's precious metal in my cymbal....must be valuable!"

As a jeweller and metals kinda guy I have alloyed all sorts of precious and non-precious metals and I'll tell ya, 'traces' means nothing, especially in something the size of a cymbal. Silver and gold can only be marketed as 'pure' at 99.99% because it is almost impossible to make it 100%...to take out that .01%, or 'trace' of other metal. This doesn't change the fact that for all intents and purposes that it is 'pure'.

So let's say that there is between .01 to .1% of silver in a cymbal. This amount would have absolutely no impact on the molecular structure of the cymbal because, according to the literature I have, that amount cannot saturate throughout the copper/tin matrix. There simply are not enough atoms available to impact or influence change in the alloy's structure.
Uh .01% of silver could be a huge difference. Steel can have carbon content ranging from .002 to 2.1%. So that .01% does matter.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

When will this ridiculous stigma surrounding B8 ever end?

It predominantly comes down to manufacturing. Cheap cymbals are cheap because they're made to be so.....not because they're made out of B8. Professional Paiste B8 cymbals sound good because they have invested the time and effort into crafting quality cymbals out of B8, whereas the others have left that alloy for their cheaper lines and put all their efforts into B20. There's so much more to cymbal manufacturing than just selecting an alloy. There is tempering, hammering, lathing et al, that contributes to the overall sound as much as the alloy alone does. Spend less time achieving desirable results during this process and you'll keep the cost down, but the end result will also be reflected in the overall sound quality of the cymbal.

It's not the alloy itself.....it never has been. It's the time, effort and money spent during the manufacturing process to begin with.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Uh .01% of silver could be a huge difference. Steel can have carbon content ranging from .002 to 2.1%. So that .01% does matter.
I respectfully disagree. I'm no expert when it comes to ferrous metals but I do know that they behave in a distinctly different way than non-ferrous metals. They cannot be compared in most instances and have different aspects to their atomic structure and make-up. It has to do with how the metal bonds to itself on a molecular level and what the alloy ingredient does to that bond. Carbon, for example, makes that bond more rigid in iron/steel.

Copper and silver have a wonderfully homogenous bond. That is they are very complimentary to one another when alloyed. The amount of copper in a silver matrix certainly changes the characteristics of the metal alloy, i.e. its tensile strength and rigidty but not even remotely close to the extent that adding, say, phosphorous to copper has.

The interesting thing to me, and pertains greatly to this discussion, about a silver/copper alloy is how the phase diagram looks. If you go from % silver to % copper on the bottom of the graph you will see that tensile strength greatly increases with the addition of copper but maximises at about 70/30 silver to copper then drops gradually off to almost nothing at 10/90 silver to copper. This follows that even 10% silver will have little effect on properties of a copper/silver alloy, and the alloy will behave much as pure copper would.

Now, with the addition of tin we see some interesting things. That is we see an increase in tensile strength and rigidity due to the creation of Cu3Sn which is a very brittle structure. This begins to happen at about 6% tin.

I guess my point with all of this is to say that silver, at a small percentage, would not affect the properties of the the bronze alloy. It's hype.
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  #33  
Old 02-12-2014, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Paiste B8 sounds so good because it is infused with the horns of unicorns and the blood of trolls.
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  #34  
Old 02-13-2014, 09:47 PM
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Alex_NJT Alex_NJT is offline
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Has someone of you ever tried 2002 paperthins? In which music styles have you used them? According to what a friend has told me they offer a nice range of possibilities, if you hit them using a light touch you can get a warm/dark-ish sound, on the other hand if you hit them hard you can get a bright and cutting suond...
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:41 PM
Ringo Watts Ringo Watts is offline
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
When will this ridiculous stigma surrounding B8 ever end?

It predominantly comes down to manufacturing. Cheap cymbals are cheap because they're made to be so.....not because they're made out of B8. Professional Paiste B8 cymbals sound good because they have invested the time and effort into crafting quality cymbals out of B8, whereas the others have left that alloy for their cheaper lines and put all their efforts into B20. There's so much more to cymbal manufacturing than just selecting an alloy. There is tempering, hammering, lathing et al, that contributes to the overall sound as much as the alloy alone does. Spend less time achieving desirable results during this process and you'll keep the cost down, but the end result will also be reflected in the overall sound quality of the cymbal.

It's not the alloy itself.....it never has been. It's the time, effort and money spent during the manufacturing process to begin with.
Perfectly stated and right on the money... You couldn't have said it better.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:35 AM
singing drums singing drums is offline
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Originally Posted by pedrum View Post
A very famous-worldwide known drummer told me that he moved from a big brand to another when he started to break cymbals as a mad. He met a metal speciallist that told him that the brand he was using didn't have silver anymore on their cymbals. They take it out. So, my theory is that Paiste's 2002 alloy is not just Copper and Tin, but also Silver.
...the price of commodities - including precious metals such as bronze and silver - has gone up by many multitudes since the early 2000s, and, yet, the price of the top end cymbals produced by the leading makers has risen by perhaps a single multitude...has anyone noticed a difference in sound between the cymbals produced in the 80/90s and the mid-later 2000s?...
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:08 AM
iwearnohats iwearnohats is offline
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

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Originally Posted by singing drums View Post
...the price of commodities - including precious metals such as bronze and silver - has gone up by many multitudes since the early 2000s, and, yet, the price of the top end cymbals produced by the leading makers has risen by perhaps a single multitude...has anyone noticed a difference in sound between the cymbals produced in the 80/90s and the mid-later 2000s?...
Only with Zildjian, but that's not related to the silver content...
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:45 PM
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Aeolian Aeolian is offline
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Default Re: Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

Regarding silver, you do get the Cu3Sn, but you also get Sn3Ag which has a different solidification point. And that stretches out the plastic or "pasty" transition at solidification. In fact you get more tin/silver alloying than copper/silver. These ternary phase diagrams are all over because lead free solder uses a combination of tin, silver and copper although in much different proportions.

In the casting of cymbals, the cooling and solidification is as much the magic as the alloy itself, if not more so. These are the "family secrets" handed down through the generations.

Stamping cymbals out of sheet material is an entirely different thing. Even if you lathe and hammer them later, you have a different metallurgical structure.
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