DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Gear > Other Gear

Other Gear Discuss Hardware and all other equipment not covered in the other topics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 06-27-2010, 07:54 PM
Morningstardrummer Morningstardrummer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 34
Default Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

My friend told me that it was bad for it, is it really?
http://www.encycmet.com/equipment/LarsKit4.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-27-2010, 08:00 PM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11,243
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

No.

That's how it's been done since the dawn of the drumset. These days folks have stuff off the bass drum so the bass drum itself isn't stressed out with the weight, but I think it's a personal choice.

I can have a 120-lb model sit on a bass drum for a photo shoot and nothing will happen.


This would also take into consideration the quality of the drum as well, though.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-27-2010, 09:02 PM
azrae1l's Avatar
azrae1l azrae1l is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: denver, colorado, usa
Posts: 649
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

having toms mounted on the bass is supposed to have a different sound then having them mounted elsewhere. my last kit was mounted on the drum, my current kit is mounted on stands and honestly as far as sound goes i didn't notice a great difference in sound from that. i did notice a lot of difference between construction, wood and heads effecting sounds on all the drums but nothing comparable on just the bass drums alone.....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-27-2010, 09:03 PM
KBadd's Avatar
KBadd KBadd is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Live....well!
Posts: 575
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

I like a virgin bass drum. I played a "2 tom" mount on my kick for about.......25 years.......I made the same money with that kit than with the most expensive kit I could have had.

However, I prefer the toms off the kick.
__________________
K

Zildjian--Mapex Saturn--Remo--DW 5000--Iron Cobra--Regal Tip AVH
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-27-2010, 09:14 PM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,174
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Personal choice. I never saw a kick drum shell collapse, because rack toms were mounted on it.
On the "other" hand, one can certainly understand the thought that weight pushing down on the kick drum could alter the sound, in some way. The jury might "still be out" on whether this is even within the range of the human ear to detect.
Then there are those who like the sound of the "cross talk", that relates to a rack tom, and a cymbal L-arm, being attached to the kick.
And then there's looks. Personally, I like the look of a virgin kick drum. I like looking down at the clean lines of non-flanged kick drum pannels.
I also like being able to pull my kick drum "out" from under my rack without having to unbolt/move anything else.
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-27-2010, 09:43 PM
MediocrityMaster MediocrityMaster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 128
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

it isnt bad for your bass drum, its built strong enough to where it wont collapse, under the weight, and it wont go out of round, unless you have the heaviest hardware possible. but it does effect the sound. depending on what type of hardware you have. if your shell is drilled through to accept a mounting rod. then i know that will change the sound, i dont know much about mounts that are just screwed onto the shell.

my kit is a PDP Z5, and the bass drum is drilled through to accept a mounting rod. when i have the toms on the rods and sitting on the BD i'll get a higher more overtone filled sound, it also makes sympathetic vibrations through my toms, but having the toms off the BD i'll get the sound that i tuned for, a nice thump.

so in my case. no, it isnt bad, but yes it changes the sound.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-27-2010, 09:50 PM
madgolfer's Avatar
madgolfer madgolfer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 185
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Do you mean the bottom edges of your toms are actually resting on your bass drum shell? If so, then yes, that is bad. Having the edges rest on your bass drum can chip the paint and leave gouges in the shell where moisture can get in. However, simply mounting them on the bass drum, as others have mentioned, is not a problem so long as the edges aren't touching the bass shell.
__________________
Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute
Sonor S-Class Pro
Sabian Cymbals
Vic Firth Sticks
Evans Drumheads
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-27-2010, 09:59 PM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
Personal choice. I never saw a kick drum shell collapse, because rack toms were mounted on it.
I also like being able to pull my kick drum "out" from under my rack without having to unbolt/move anything else.
I have seen a bass drum with it's shell a bit flattened at the top where the 12" and 13" toms where mounted. The thing is the set of drums were about 45 years old. I also like being able to pull the bass drum out from under the toms without disconnecting the other drums. After saying this I have and use both without any problems in their sound or set-ups. When I bough my Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute kit about two years ago, I experimented feverishly comparing their sound with and without the toms mounted to the bass drum. I heard no change in resonance, pitch or sustain with the toms mounted on the bass drum after many A/B tests.



Dennis
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-27-2010, 10:06 PM
Les Ismore's Avatar
Les Ismore Les Ismore is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 3,803
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

...one can certainly understand the thought that weight pushing down on the kick drum could alter the sound, in some way.

Some bass drums can't take extra weight without distorting out of round.

If you take your bass drum without toms mounted, stand up and and press down on the top of the shell (where the mount is/would be) kick the pedal alternately between pressure and no pressure, there's a good chance you'll hear a difference in sound. Some bass drums are stronger than others.

In the 70's it wasn't uncommon for 13, 14 and 15" toms to mounted on the bass drum. Since accepted modern bass drum sound is basically atonal, keeping the bass drum round/stress free seems less important nowadays. Metal hoops can help maintain roundness, so too internal braces.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-27-2010, 10:16 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,260
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
When I bough my Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute kit about two years ago, I experimented feverishly comparing their sound with and without the toms mounted to the bass drum. I heard no change in resonance, pitch or sustain with the toms mounted on the bass drum after many A/B tests.
Dennis
Dennis, were all these experiments unmuffled, muffled, or both?
Muffled, extra tom weight made no diff, from my experiments.
Unmuffled, kick mounted toms degraded the kick sound to my ear.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-27-2010, 10:41 PM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,240
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

I'm with audiotech on this one also.

I have played many kits over the years both with, and without virgin bass drums.
I would simply just go with whatever makes you feel the best.
I my case I simply don't notice any real difference, so I mount my tom/s on my bass drum.
Try the test yourself and if you think that the bass drum sounds better, then go with a virgin bass drum set up. If not, then don't worry about it!
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-27-2010, 10:44 PM
azrae1l's Avatar
azrae1l azrae1l is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: denver, colorado, usa
Posts: 649
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Dennis, were all these experiments unmuffled, muffled, or both?
Muffled, extra tom weight made no diff, from my experiments.
Unmuffled, kick mounted toms degraded the kick sound to my ear.
that could have been the reason i heard no noticable change in my 2 kits, both my kicks were muffled with those evans eq pads. still i do like the virgin kick more as i feel it gives you more set up possibilities and i'm still toying with how i like it set up the best....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-27-2010, 10:52 PM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,589
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstardrummer View Post
My friend told me that it was bad for it, is it really?
Nope. If it was, they wouldn't make them that way.

As for the "loss of resonance" argument, there IS a noticeable loss of resonance and tone when you mount toms on your bass drum, but if you muffle it with either pre-muffled or EQ-treated heads, or with pillows/blankets/felts, then you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-28-2010, 12:51 AM
alparrott's Avatar
alparrott alparrott is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 4,152
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

I don't mount any toms on my bass drum, but I do mount a ride cymbal and a crash cymbal. I know they aren't going to put my kick out of round, and I have never heard any loss of resonance past what I wanted out of my very minor muffling.

If someone told you flat out that it was bad for your drums, OP, he's less knowledgeable than he thinks, or has bought into some serious hype from the drum companies.
__________________
Al Parrott
"Jus suum cuique"
-------------------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-28-2010, 01:14 AM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Dennis, were all these experiments unmuffled, muffled, or both?
Muffled, extra tom weight made no diff, from my experiments.
Unmuffled, kick mounted toms degraded the kick sound to my ear.
No external or internal muffling at all. The batter heads I use are Evans EQ4's which have a fixed internal ring and I use an unported Remo resonant head. What may help my situation is that the Yamaha Die cast hoops are made from aluminium making the shells some of the lighter weight shell out there. I went so far as using my B&K spectrum analyser with mounted toms on the left channel and unmounted on the right. There was a Very slight difference on the waveform in terms of sustain, but when we closed our eyes the difference went away. If I would have had two identical bass drums and heads on the same drums, the test could have been a bit more scientific, lol. With any type of muffling I doubt if there would have been any noticeable variations on the SA.

Dennis
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-28-2010, 01:36 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,240
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Im sitting here with my unmuffled 14x18 inch bass drum. I have a clear Emperor on the batter side and a Un-ported Un-dampened single ply cheap stock front head that I took off of the drum when I first bought it. The drum is 2 inches off of the ground held up by a bass pedal riser and the spurs.
The tension rods are all tuned to 76 on the drum dial. Medium Tension

I keep on sliding my tom mount, with tom attached on and off while I play the drum at moderate volume.

The only difference that I hear is the rack tom ringing slightly when I beat the bass drum.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-28-2010, 03:07 AM
alparrott's Avatar
alparrott alparrott is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 4,152
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
No external or internal muffling at all. The batter heads I use are Evans EQ4's which have a fixed internal ring and I use an unported Remo resonant head. What may help my situation is that the Yamaha Die cast hoops are made from aluminium making the shells some of the lighter weight shell out there. I went so far as using my B&K spectrum analyser with mounted toms on the left channel and unmounted on the right. There was a Very slight difference on the waveform in terms of sustain, but when we closed our eyes the difference went away. If I would have had two identical bass drums and heads on the same drums, the test could have been a bit more scientific, lol. With any type of muffling I doubt if there would have been any noticeable variations on the SA.

Dennis
It's like DW Mythbusters!
__________________
Al Parrott
"Jus suum cuique"
-------------------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-28-2010, 03:18 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,240
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Let's face it, The virgin bass drum is an advertising ploy.
Rack systems allowed the bass drum to be free of mounted toms.
The drum companies simply ran with this concept.
It's all just personal preference.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-28-2010, 03:41 AM
genericdrummingusername's Avatar
genericdrummingusername genericdrummingusername is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Post-Industrial Hick wasteland.
Posts: 413
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Strong bass drum, weak bass drum, resonant bass drum, dead bass drum, a bass drum is an instrument, and IMO, should be treated that way.

Would you ever stand on a double bass? It could probably take it...

My kit has thin birch shells, and I don't like the idea of continuous pressure on one of them. Even if I preferred the possibly less resonant sound of bass drum mounting, I wouldn't do it. I'd use a bigger pillow.


FWIW, I also couldn't position my "rack tom" if it were mounted on the bass drum, and I simply dislike the look of bass drum mounting. It looks unstable.

Also (run-on alert), if you have your bass drum, with toms mounted over it, facing the audience, and you the drummer are facing the audience, you're almost guaranteed to have posture issues, but that's another thread.
__________________
I also play Bass.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-28-2010, 03:43 AM
Derek Derek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: So. California
Posts: 425
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

I used to have my 10" and 12" toms mounted on my bass drum. The only reason that I now have them moved to the side is strictly for ride cymbal positioning. My ride is now mounted on the bass drum.
I agree with just personel preference and setup possibilities.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-28-2010, 04:05 AM
Les Ismore's Avatar
Les Ismore Les Ismore is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 3,803
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

The drum is 2 inches off of the ground held up by a bass pedal riser and the spurs.

My experience with the GIBRALTAR style risers is, if you have mounted toms on the bass drum, the weight of the bass drum, along with the toms on the riser cause it to tweak the hoop affecting the sound... minimal, but noticeable.

Last edited by Les Ismore; 07-20-2010 at 04:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-28-2010, 05:06 AM
Morningstardrummer Morningstardrummer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 34
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

My question is that a 24x18 bass drum would hold a 16x13 mounted tom and a 14x11 mounted tom with the tama tom mounter
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-28-2010, 06:48 AM
Winston_Wolf's Avatar
Winston_Wolf Winston_Wolf is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 1,134
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

I can't say I've ever seen THAT done before...

From a structural point of view, I don't think putting toms that big on a bass drum is such a good idea, but I'm not even sure if that combo would be playable. At least not sitting down. That 16" tom would be about three feet off of the ground, and the pair would be awfully wide as well.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-28-2010, 06:50 AM
Morningstardrummer Morningstardrummer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 34
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

I've seen it done, Lars used 12, 13, 14, and 16 mounted toms back in the 80s and nicko uses a 16 but not on the bass drum
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-28-2010, 07:14 AM
JarodMaybern's Avatar
JarodMaybern JarodMaybern is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 102
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

I'm sure it's been said it's far too late for me to read this full thread but here's insight from personal experience.

My old Tama set had two toms mounted on the kick a 13" and 14". I never had heard until about a year ago of any effects this had and it never really bothered me...until I bought a drumset with a virgin kick. And, to me, it sounds like the pitch is deeper and has more low end and can sustain it a little better which is a plus in my book.

Other than that I've never heard of any thing detrimental to the kit itself besides the sound. And the sound of your set is your own personal choice.
__________________
"Goodnight my love, God bless"
-John Henry Bonham
Funk BLASTER beats
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-28-2010, 03:32 PM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Is it bad if you have your toms on your bass drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstardrummer View Post
My question is that a 24x18 bass drum would hold a 16x13 mounted tom and a 14x11 mounted tom with the tama tom mounter
It would seem to me that you would have to stand on top of a three foot step ladder to be able to play them, lol.

Dennis
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com