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  #441  
Old 04-13-2010, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Can I change my answer to descendants?
I liked "A musician has a sacred oath to open up doors for his predecessors" better :) If you squint and turn your head sideways it makes perfect sense, where legacies are given greater meaning when someone carries on the work ...

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Now we can get into the fine subtleties of cultivating an audience for the enjoyment of great music, as opposed to marketing. Did Kenny create anew audience or market himself to an audience of muzak listeners?
I think he did. There was clearly a lot of people ready to take up what KG had to offer. Imagine what the world would be like if that many people were primed to hear avant garde music ...
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  #442  
Old 04-13-2010, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I liked "A musician has a sacred oath to open up doors for his predecessors" better :)
A musician has a sacred oath to open up doors for those who came before him? Makes no sense. Surely it should be "A musician has a sacred oath to open up doors for his successors."

But even that I don't agree with. There's nothing sacred in music, not for me anyway.
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  #443  
Old 04-14-2010, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I liked "A musician has a sacred oath to open up doors for his predecessors" better :) If you squint and turn your head sideways it makes perfect sense, where legacies are given greater meaning when someone carries on the work ...


You're right (or was that your write?) . . .

It does work both ways.

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I think he did. There was clearly a lot of people ready to take up what KG had to offer. Imagine what the world would be like if that many people were primed to hear avant garde music ...
I think the later is the point. Kenny G had nothing new to offer. And in of of itself there is nothing 'wrong' with Kenny G's music. How many Herb Albert albums were sold? But it was an easy sell for a market that was already there.

The ability to cultivate a market for music and ideas that are not in the mainstream is a different story. I think that was part of what Miles was saying. It could have been simple warning to watch his business contracts and here we are reading into it. Whether or not anyone believes that music is sacred of their music is sacred has nothing to do with it. The issue is what Miles would have thought about his music. I don't think he saw it as something frivolous, and I know he wasn't in it for the money. :)
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  #444  
Old 04-14-2010, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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You're right (or was that your write?) . . .

It does work both ways.



I think the later is the point. Kenny G had nothing new to offer. And in of of itself there is nothing 'wrong' with Kenny G's music. How many Herb Albert albums were sold? But it was an easy sell for a market that was already there.

The ability to cultivate a market for music and ideas that are not in the mainstream is a different story. I think that was part of what Miles was saying. It could have been simple warning to watch his business contracts and here we are reading into it. Whether or not anyone believes that music is sacred of their music is sacred has nothing to do with it. The issue is what Miles would have thought about his music. I don't think he saw it as something frivolous, and I know he wasn't in it for the money. :)
I know that you're not going to believe this, But when I was a kid I played the trumpet. (fifth grade) I had every single Herb Alpert album! LOL! Also, all of Al Hurt's albums,. and The Baja Marimba Band. I still listen to them now and then. I still like them! They make me feel young! Just simple memories of my youth!

Here is my fav TJB tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMqw...eature=related I love this stuff!!!
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  #445  
Old 04-14-2010, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Nah Jay, I prefer opening doors for "predecessors". A far more humane approach given that some of the poor old things would be just about due for walking frames :)

Wasn't Herb Alpert the guy who did Baby Elephant Walk? Seriously cute music!

Ken, the question for me is WHY such a strong market is there for your namesake. Why are listeners so [expletive] conservative? Why does everything have to have a pretty tune and/or catchy beat? I think most people are artistically immature so they naturally gravitate to musical "sugar".

I think they are that way because 1) many don't have time these days to get interested in the arts in any meaningful way and 2) our cutures seem to have trouble parsing egalitarianism and depth. Keen interest in artistic (or existential) depth seems to naturally attract cynicism in younger cultures ... "Who do you think you are? You fink you're better than me?" sort of thing.

This segues somewhat with my thoughts on the Euro and US music thread, although I think the cross-pollination over the years has changed both scenes dramatically.
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  #446  
Old 04-14-2010, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I know that you're not going to believe this, But when I was a kid I played the trumpet. (fifth grade) I had every single Herb Alpert album!
Ok, since we are airing our dirty linen in public, I played my drums to 'A Taste of Honey' a million times when I was 15 years old. ( Other secret fetishes at the time included The James Last orchestra )

There. I said it.

...

Last edited by aydee; 04-14-2010 at 06:58 AM.
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  #447  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I was in love with Slade ... ahem

Later I had a whole bunch of smooth jazz records - David Sanborn, Lee Ritenour, Stuff, Larry Carlton, George Benson ...
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  #448  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ken, the question for me is WHY such a strong market is there for your namesake. Why are listeners so [expletive] conservative? Why does everything have to have a pretty tune and/or catchy beat? I think most people are artistically immature so they naturally gravitate to musical "sugar".

I think they are that way because 1) many don't have time these days to get interested in the arts in any meaningful way and 2) our cultures seem to have trouble parsing egalitarianism and depth. Keen interest in artistic (or existential) depth seems to naturally attract cynicism in younger cultures ... "Who do you think you are? You fink you're better than me?" sort of thing.

This segues somewhat with my thoughts on the Euro and US music thread, although I think the cross-pollination over the years has changed both scenes dramatically.
I think the point that I've been trying to make is related to the concept of audience procurement. One could say there are two camps on the matter 1) People should get what they want, period 2) It is the responsibility of musicians to cultivate the listening palette of their audience. The Beatles cultivated a listening palette for rock and roll by making it melodious, harmonically interesting and rhythmically exciting. They created an audience for progressive rock by incorporating classical, world music and electronic elements into their songs. Miles created an audience for modal jazz with his albums of 1958 and 1959s Kind of Blue, and alter for electronic jazz fusion. They were trying to create an ear for something new.

I think what Metheny is arguing is essentially Kenny G is destroying the audience for jazz by not cultivating a listening palette for the finer qualities of discernment that it takes to enjoy sophisticated music. That leads to the "who are you to say"argument, which seems to now be limited to a youth culture.

It's funny to me that everyone has the perspective of needing to argue the superiority of their listening palette. . I took an old friend to see Bobby McFerrin years agoI had won the tickets and was taking him to see the show. Then when he saw EW&F, he had to tell me that he thought Philip Bailey was a better falsetto singer. Well, he sings out of tune, but that is besides the point. He had to tell me that my guy was not as good as his guy. I guess it's a guy thing.

It is a shame that people are immature and gravitate to musical sugar. as a guy who just rushed out to the grocery store to get an apple crumb pie at 11PM 'cause I had a craving, I am not going to argue against sugar cravings, especially with a cold glass of milk. But the thing again that baffles me is that people seem not to know the difference, and think these things don't matter. It's refreshing that you know that they do.

PS God Bless bands like Herb Albert for putting marimba players to good use . . .

I didn't know the Beatles recorded this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQH7Xa4A-os
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  #449  
Old 04-15-2010, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ok, since we are airing our dirty linen in public, I played my drums to 'A Taste of Honey' a million times when I was 15 years old. ( Other secret fetishes at the time included The James Last orchestra )

There. I said it.

...
A Taste of Honey is a good tune to learn timing from. It also has some good simple syncopation in it. I also played that tune on my trumpet back then. It was challenging to me to hit and hold those notes.
Herb's music was well arranged and orchestrated. It was great to learn from because of this. I learned a great deal from the TJB.
The Lonely Bull is another good tune to learn from.
The drumming on Herb's albums is excellent too.
Listen to the live version of A Taste Of Honey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Ara...eature=related
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  #450  
Old 04-15-2010, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

More of the TJB Live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuByW...eature=related
Herb with louie! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojte8...eature=related
Herb with Janet J. LOL! Just for fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-d8M...eature=related
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  #451  
Old 04-15-2010, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Morning tea quickie.

Ken, re: "One could say there are two camps on the matter 1) People should get what they want, period 2) It is the responsibility of musicians to cultivate the listening palette of their audience".

I think neither. I see no shoulds applying at all. People will hear what they want amonsgt all the music out there and, if not, they will abandon music for gaming, TV etc. What they come across is usually what the majors think they want to hear and it's quite possible that this is one reason why people are abandoning music for other pastimes. After all, we tend to be attracted to people who are real rather than putting on a face for us - so why wouldn't this apply in music?

Musician responsibilities depend on their situation - it can range from their employers (the suits), their bandmates, their peers, their own sensibilities or their audiences. Maybe Pat thinks Kenny should be more responsive to his peer group rather than abandoning them for the suits?
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  #452  
Old 04-15-2010, 04:00 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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A Taste of Honey is a good tune to learn timing from. It also has some good simple syncopation in it. I also played that tune on my trumpet back then. It was challenging to me to hit and hold those notes.
Herb's music was well arranged and orchestrated. It was great to learn from because of this. I learned a great deal from the TJB.
The Lonely Bull is another good tune to learn from.
The drumming on Herb's albums is excellent too.
Listen to the live version of A Taste Of Honey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Ara...eature=related
Thanks, great cut , Bob, that was a lot jazzier than the original. Herp must be getting old ; )

Was that Branford Marsailis playing soprano with him? ( oo, what his brother might say to him for doing this )..

I loved Sitting Bull and all the other Tjuiana Brass stuff, and the clip still brings back the warmest of memories of listening to it for the first time and feeling so turned on by it.

....
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  #453  
Old 04-15-2010, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I saw the kind of attitude that has lead to the musak concept in a letter to today's paper:
Isn't it double jeopardy to be punished with teenage angst lyrics such as ''baby, baby there ain't nobody else'' while waiting 15 minutes on the phone to a bank? Please, XXXXX, just give me quiet music and you may charge whatever fees you like.
The trick is to find music that is so inoffensive that the only offence caused will be to those like us who are offended by excessive inoffensiveness. And of course, we don't matter ...
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  #454  
Old 04-15-2010, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ken, re: "One could say there are two camps on the matter 1) People should get what they want, period 2) It is the responsibility of musicians to cultivate the listening palette of their audience".

I think neither. I see no shoulds applying at all. People will hear what they want amonsgt all the music out there and, if not, they will abandon music for gaming, TV etc. What they come across is usually what the majors think they want to hear and it's quite possible that this is one reason why people are abandoning music for other pastimes. After all, we tend to be attracted to people who are real rather than putting on a face for us - so why wouldn't this apply in music?

Musician responsibilities depend on their situation - it can range from their employers (the suits), their band mates, their peers, their own sensibilities or their audiences. Maybe Pat thinks Kenny should be more responsive to his peer group rather than abandoning them for the suits?

You can't abandon it here. :)

For record company executives of the late 1970s and 1980s the former was their philosophy. They couldn't understand why some people were complaining about the narrow envelop of FM radio when their audience was more than happy. But when you have a generation of kids that grow up listening to Poison and Motley Crue, and the best they can do is Van Halen, Don't be surprised when the best their kids can do is Snoop Dogg.
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  #455  
Old 04-15-2010, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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You can't abandon it here. :)

For record company executives of the late 1970s and 1980s the former was their philosophy. They couldn't understand why some people were complaining about the narrow envelop of FM radio when their audience was more than happy. But when you have a generation of kids that grow up listening to Poison and Motley Crue, and the best they can do is Van Halen, Don't be surprised when the best their kids can do is Snoop Dogg.
Scary thought. I guess the 50s had a lot of tripe and then we had a musical revolution in the 60s. Could it happen again? I'm thinking not because business interests have taken over the industry. As always, lots of cool stuff underground but the mainstream has become so overpowering. Small venues that foster underground music continue to disappear because it doesn't pay well enough, certainly not as well as poker machines.

Are festivals the last frontier?
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  #456  
Old 04-15-2010, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Scary thought. I guess the 50s had a lot of tripe and then we had a musical revolution in the 60s. Could it happen again?


The 1960s were a revolutionary time that opened things up in America.

It was the dope.:)
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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The 1960s were a revolutionary time that opened things up in America.

It was the dope.:)
lol ... the 1950s shackles were on pretty tight from all reports. Can't say I know personally since I would have been too busy being toilet-trained at the time. Hard to know where things will go - globalisation, rapid population growth with changing demographics, the rise of religious fervour, climate change and environmental degradation, technology, increasing media influence, the rise of reality TV, talkback shows and interactivity.

Maybe we'll end up just banging on idiophones again?
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  #458  
Old 04-15-2010, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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lol ... the 1950s shackles were on pretty tight from all reports. Can't say I know personally since I would have been too busy being toilet-trained at the time. Hard to know where things will go - globalisation, rapid population growth with changing demographics, the rise of religious fervour, climate change and environmental degradation, technology, increasing media influence, the rise of reality TV, talkback shows and interactivity.

Maybe we'll end up just banging on idiophones again?
It's interesting that with all the changes in the industry, and complaints of its failing and losing money, that Jason Mraz tune I'm Yours was still able to spend over a year in the top 100 from what I remember.You need to have a strong industry to be able to do that.

Yeah, the idiophones are nice. Isn't the drum set an idiophone?

The arrangements are really the things I miss about popular music. Even in the seventies you had the bands with the horn arrangements, and all that disco and soul jazz with those (crappy) orchestrations; nothing compares to the sappy pop orchestrations of the 60s though. Moody Blues, Herb Albert and The Fifth Dimension. (That is where FM Muzak began. Fifth Dimension meets Montavani.) But I do enjoy that stuff. Some of it was classic Steely Dan, Curtis Mayfield, Isaac Hayes, EW&F and I'll even put in a prop for TSOP. It was good enough for Soul Train.

like this one; I think it's Harvey Mason on drums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14pitnJlcv4
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  #459  
Old 04-15-2010, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Here's one for ya Polly,

One of my kids brings this in the other day, It's got a girl drummer Stephanie Eulinberg.

got a great hook, two samples, and was a huge hit. Great drumming. and when you think about the samples, they make sense for the song. My kid actually pointed that out kind of haphazardly, "he's changing into something." The Werewolf of London" theme symbolizes his change from a boy to a man, and of course the Skynryrd is pure nostalgia. Pure sugar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwIGZLjugKA
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  #460  
Old 04-17-2010, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Thanks, great cut , Bob, that was a lot jazzier than the original. Herp must be getting old ; )

Was that Branford Marsailis playing soprano with him? ( oo, what his brother might say to him for doing this )..

I loved Sitting Bull and all the other Tjuiana Brass stuff, and the clip still brings back the warmest of memories of listening to it for the first time and feeling so turned on by it.

....
I thought that that vid fit the nature of this thread Abe! Imagine Herb playing Jazz with a Marsaillis!!
The shame!
Check out Herbs Live Jazz album called "Anything Goes" on iTunes. Thrilling!
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  #461  
Old 04-18-2010, 03:06 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I was listening to some Louie Armstrong today on my itunes. I have the seven Volumes of Hot Five and Sevens. I noticed the first volume, which is from 1987 is listed under the genre heading easy listening. then all the others are Jazz. hmmm . . . . Well, I don't know what to think. :)
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Old 04-18-2010, 08:31 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Hey Ken, I'd call cymbals idiophones but drums are membranophones, aren't they? Whatever, I was just being a pretentious *grin* gronk - basically I was saying that maybe once we've gone the full cycle then what we have left is banging two rocks together.

Ah, Breezin'. I played that when doing occasional fill-ins for a MOR restaurant band to augment my meagre student allowance. Funny ... that band gigged more and made more $$ per gig than my original rock band at the time, which had a higher standard of musicianship and far more creative. It's not just Kenny and Pat ... musicians are not rewarded for quality as much as they are for filling a predictable niche in the marketplace.

Here's one way of forming a band and be a success ... get some musos together who plan to make a living from it. Conduct a thorough market analysis and look for business opportunities. Once an unfulfilled need is found, the band chooses covers or writes songs with an aim to fill that market niche. Movers and shakers are found to promote the product and arrange gigs and studio sessions.

All my bands started with people bringing songs they wanted to play and everyone deciding whether they wanted to or could play that song or not.

Quote:
of course the Skynryrd is pure nostalgia. Pure sugar.
Lynard Skynard's brand of sugar was never for me, though. I do like some pure sugar, though ... like Abba's Money Money Money, 10cc's I'm Not in Love, Anastacia's - I'm Outta Love, Wham's Careless Whisper, My Sharona ... G Spot's Song Bird is lovely chillout music.

On the other hand I love King Crimson's TPTB Pt2, RATM's Killing in the Name, Henry Cow's Beautiful as the Moon, Tower of Power's Can't Stand to See the Slaughter ... some music just hits you in a sweet spot for no good reason.
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