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  #161  
Old 03-27-2010, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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There are purest followers for other forms of music that are angered when their fav band does a pop recording.
I spent about a year during the mid seventies following the Dead.
The purist members of that cult will not own a studio recorded Dead album.
I never understood them either.
Many of them have never listened to any other music that didn't have a member from the Dead playing on it.
Bob, I could have been more readily persuaded to the other end of the argument if I didn't have to read post like this. Jazz does have at its core many a trifle of pop ditties that have become the fodder of its its infernal musical transformation machine. But to read a post like this baffles me.

How could one be a fan of the Grateful Dead and not come to understand that , like most jazz music, The Dead is a part of the counter-culture? The 1960s counter-culture was based on a radical imperative to change the social fabric of American society. Its was anti-war, anti-imperialist, anti-commercialism and anti-what have you got. To not agree with the opinions of those who complain about the over commercialization of our lives is one thing. But to say that one cannot understand why a Dead head would not want to be a part of it is something else.

It frustrates me because in these discussions it is always necessary to take out the big guns and totally try to annihilate the opponent. Thus, Kenny G is crap and if you listen to it you ought to have your head examined becomes the core of the counter argument. If you or anybody enjoys Kenny G if it gets your wife in the mood, helps you relax with dinner or when friends come over for poker that is fine. Far be it from anyone to complain about anyone's musical taste. That is not, as I have stated several times, NOT at the core of what Metheny is saying. And this again is Pat Metheny saying it, a leading figure in contemporary jazz.

What this discussion has only made me see more thoroughly is the accuracy of Pat Metheny's insight because we seem to be dealing with the repercussions here. Kenny G is not a respected jazz artists who then dabbles in a pop format. He is a pop artist who is trying to validate the quality of his art by giving it an aire of jazz sophistication. This is what pop does. The Beatles used a string quartet and symphonic band. The Moody Blues used a full blown orchestra as even Metallica did. Am I supposed to now have the same level of respect and admiration for Lars that I have for Beethoven? I don't even have the same level of respect for his playing that I do for many of my students. So there is nothing wrong or bad about Metallica. If one wants to listen to Metallica, that is certainly ones prerogative.

The tradition of jazz, and yes it is a tradition, and that is an argument that was settles twenty odd years ago has at its core a series of practices, a rhythmic and harmonic language, traditions of phrasing, and improvisation, a group a standard recordings and compositions. Today, I think what you see is a new generation of artists trying to get away from the canonization of jazz, and see it as fresh and undefined, which could be a reaction against traditionalism. These artists are not doing that in the mainstream of American musical culture, and no matter how many hit records Kenny G had or has, he is not going to change that.
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  #162  
Old 03-27-2010, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Bob, I could have been more readily persuaded to the other end of the argument if I didn't have to read post like this. Jazz does have at its core many a trifle of pop ditties that have become the fodder of its its infernal musical transformation machine. But to read a post like this baffles me.

How could one be a fan of the Grateful Dead and not come to understand that , like most jazz music, The Dead is a part of the counter-culture? The 1960s counter-culture was based on a radical imperative to change the social fabric of American society. Its was anti-war, anti-imperialist, anti-commercialism and anti-what have you got. To not agree with the opinions of those who complain about the over commercialization of our lives is one thing. But to say that one cannot understand why a Dead head would not want to be a part of it is something else.

It frustrates me because in these discussions it is always necessary to take out the big guns and totally try to annihilate the opponent. Thus, Kenny G is crap and if you listen to it you ought to have your head examined becomes the core of the counter argument. If you or anybody enjoys Kenny G if it gets your wife in the mood, helps you relax with dinner or when friends come over for poker that is fine. Far be it from anyone to complain about anyone's musical taste. That is not, as I have stated several times, NOT at the core of what Metheny is saying. And this again is Pat Metheny saying it, a leading figure in contemporary jazz.

What this discussion has only made me see more thoroughly is the accuracy of Pat Metheny's insight because we seem to be dealing with the repercussions here. Kenny G is not a respected jazz artists who then dabbles in a pop format. He is a pop artist who is trying to validate the quality of his art by giving it an aire of jazz sophistication. This is what pop does. The Beatles used a string quartet and symphonic band. The Moody Blues used a full blown orchestra as even Metallica did. Am I supposed to now have the same level of respect and admiration for Lars that I have for Beethoven? I don't even have the same level of respect for his playing that I do for many of my students. So there is nothing wrong or bad about Metallica. If one wants to listen to Metallica, that is certainly ones prerogative.

The tradition of jazz, and yes it is a tradition, and that is an argument that was settles twenty odd years ago has at its core a series of practices, a rhythmic and harmonic language, traditions of phrasing, and improvisation, a group a standard recordings and compositions. Today, I think what you see is a new generation of artists trying to get away from the canonization of jazz, and see it as fresh and undefined, which could be a reaction against traditionalism. These artists are not doing that in the mainstream of American musical culture, and no matter how many hit records Kenny G had or has, he is not going to change that.
I see the culture of Jazz and the Grateful Dead. I understand it. I don't have to be a card carrying member to appreciate it.
Im an independent! I look at things for what they are. I know the difference between Kenny G and Pat M. I don't care what they call the style of music that they play. I don't care if there are people out there that can't tell the difference. It doesn't matter to me. I know, Thats what counts!
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  #163  
Old 03-28-2010, 01:49 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Well the one thing I've gleaned from this microscopic view of things is..... jazz lovers defend their genre more fiercely than anyone else of any other genre.

As long as the good jazz music is still being made, and the jazz lovers can still get good stuff in abundance, that's all that you can hope for. The rest of the world may be going to hell in a handbasket, (musically speaking) but as long as there is good stuff still being recorded...that's the important thing.

The day they stop making great jazz music....that's when things are really in trouble.
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  #164  
Old 03-28-2010, 02:04 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Well the one thing I've gleaned from this microscopic view of things is..... jazz lovers defend their genre more fiercely than anyone else of any other genre.
Only a few, actually. The rest are too busy getting on with writing and playing jazz music.
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  #165  
Old 03-28-2010, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I thought that was called Pat Boone syndrome? :-P
DED, you're a sharp one! Great piece about PSB here.

However, I've not heard Our Ken produce anything that approaches this work of sheer magnificence! Brings a smile to my face every time :)

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Originally Posted by Steamer
... we are more and more being conditioned and trained to treat music as a form a mere background fooder ...a social form of a pure background/ ignore function and "drug and sedate" the listener without any listener interaction or challenges on that recieving end..... I call it a evil form of a "comfort" zone. That was my point on "elevator music" which is becoming more of the standard "norm" in general society.
A lot of this is due to globalisation, growing world population densities and how these forces have increased competitiveness in every area of every society. People must work longer hours, struggle more to pay exorbitant mortgages, their kids have more needs (eg. out of school tuition and other extracurricular activities, technology), and everything takes longer to do. No matter what you want to do, there's another bloody queue. On a bad day it takes me almost an hour to drive 10 kilometres (6-7 miles) to visit Dad on the weekend.

In this time-poor environment people simply don't have the time or energy to devote to engaging with the arts in a meaningful way. Often they struggle even to engage satisfactorily with their partners and children.

Once people had time to really focus on the arts - to drink deep. Now they don't. The music reflects this. Once people were surrounded by organic things and now we're increasingly surrounded by concrete, steel and plastic. The music reflects this. Kenny G's Prozac plastic pop jazz reflects this. Young people get angry because they are offended by the plastic spirituality around them and we have nu metal comprised of of the ingredients surrounding them - concrete, steel and plastic. Either that or they dive into that pool of molten plastic because that's all they know.

Where's the organic blues and jazz and folk and rock n roll gone? These are musics of nature and human connection (the type that occurs when you have time to connect). They have largely been logged, mined and generally swamped by the sounds of industry. The suits are the high priests of over-populated competition. They are delivering the last rites.

Excuse me while I slip off to the bathroom to slash my wrists lol - no, better to listen to Captain Beefheart again. The song nicely describes the situation IMO
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  #166  
Old 03-28-2010, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Only a few, actually. The rest are too busy getting on with writing and playing jazz music.
Or find time to comment about it and perform it.... both :}

I'm in the studio with one of my projects recording a new acoustic jazz trio CD all day tomorrow and hey don't you have a gig to prepare for now Jay?

Comment AND play on......
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  #167  
Old 03-28-2010, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Or find time to comment about it and perform it.... both :}

I'm in the studio with one of my projects recording a new acoustic jazz trio CD all day tomorrow and hey don't you have a gig to prepare for now Jay?
I've spent the day going over the charts for my set. I had to make some changes, eliminate an intro, re-configure a couple of solo choruses, that sort of thing. It's the work I love to do, getting my hands dirty with the nuts-and-bolts of making a song the best it can be. And when I'm involved with that work I'm light years away from caring about what the public listens to or what Kenny G's doing or what Pat Metheny has to say about it. What good does it do, to be distracted by these issues?

Good luck on your session tomorrow.
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  #168  
Old 03-28-2010, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I've spent the day going over the charts for my set. I had to make some changes, eliminate an intro, re-configure a couple of solo choruses, that sort of thing. It's the work I love to do, getting my hands dirty with the nuts-and-bolts of making a song the best it can be. And when I'm involved with that work I'm light years away from caring about what the public listens to or what Kenny G's doing or what Pat Metheny has to say about it.

Good luck on your session tomorrow.
Thanks!

Good luck on the gig Jay. Should be blast......
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  #169  
Old 03-28-2010, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Thanks!

Good luck on the gig Jay. Should be blast......
Thanks, Stan.

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  #170  
Old 03-28-2010, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Stan, This goes out to you.
A few months ago you posted some great vids of your playing.
I sent links to some musician friends of mine that explained that you were a friend on mine whose drumming I admired, Etc.
Keep in mind that only one of these people play jazz.
Everyone commented with polite statements that said something like this. I don't really understand jazz, but it sounded pretty good to me! Yada,Yada,Yada! They all said nice things about you and your band.
The guitar player who studied and plays jazz sent me a seven paragraph email that described in detail everything that he thought that was wrong with the performance!
Of course he didn't say what was correct!
I read the email, Deleted it, and I moved on with my life!
Get my point?
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  #171  
Old 03-28-2010, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Jay and Stan, it's good to see you guys have finally made up. :)

it's amazing to me that this discussion never goes any where. Abe, can now start another thread. are jazz listeners that most rigorous about their defense of the genre
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  #172  
Old 03-28-2010, 04:30 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Stan, This goes out to you.
A few months ago you posted some great vids of your playing.
I sent links to some musician friends of mine that explained that you were a friend on mine whose drumming I admired, Etc.
Keep in mind that only one of these people play jazz.
Everyone commented with polite statements that said something like this. I don't really understand jazz, but it sounded pretty good to me! Yada,Yada,Yada! They all said nice things about you and your band.
The guitar player who studied and plays jazz sent me a seven paragraph email that described in detail everything that he thought that was wrong with the performance!
Of course he didn't say what was correct!
I read the email, Deleted it, and I moved on with my life!
Get my point?
Sure do Bob.......everyone likes to be or is a critic to some extent or another in life especially musicians in particular I have learned and many are coming at it with a different set of "ears" and experience under their belt, everyone's different.

Can't please everyone since we all have different levels experience and angles to base what we know and feel off and what we personally dig.......

Let the music simply be which could be said in regards to the present discussion and totally get the point you're are getting across as you may have guessed :}
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  #173  
Old 03-28-2010, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Jay and Stan, it's good to see you guys have finally made up. :)
+1. No, +1000! :)

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it's amazing to me that this discussion never goes any where. Abe, can now start another thread. are jazz listeners that most rigorous about their defense of the genre
+1. No, +1000! :))
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  #174  
Old 03-28-2010, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Jay and Stan, it's good to see you guys have finally made up. :)
I am not the jazz drummer that Stan is, and anyway musicians are always getting up each others' ass.

But all of us here have a lot more in common than not. So, let's find what it is that we all have in common, I say. And you know what? We're still going to get up each other's ass!
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  #175  
Old 03-28-2010, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I am not the jazz drummer that Stan is, and musicians are always getting up each others' ass.

But all of us here have a lot more in common than not. So, let's find what it is that we all have in common, I say. And you know what? We're still going to get up each other's ass!
Fact be known most members around the same age here I feel are coming from a similar background of being outsiders or rebels musically and socially speaking in the grand scheme of the things..... more in common than we first suspect :}
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  #176  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Sure do Bob.......everyone likes to be or is a critic to some extent or another in life especially musicians in particular I have learned and many are coming at it with a different set of "ears" and experience under their belt, everyone's different.

Can't please everyone since we all have different levels experience and angles to base what we know and feel off and what we personally dig.......

Let the music simply be which could be said in regards to the present discussion and totally get the point you're are getting across as you may have guessed :}
I wonder if Kenny G has comments about Pats playing?
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  #177  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:03 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I wonder if Kenny G has comments about Pats playing?
Let's no go there Bob................:}
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  #178  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Fact be known most members around the same age here I feel are coming from a similar background of being outsiders or rebels musically and socially speaking in the grand scheme of the things..... more in common than we first suspect :}
The hilarious thing about a group of rebels and outsiders coming together is we keep getting up each others' arses :) That's why we're outsiders - we've each perfected our own way of being a pain in the arse! So it's miraculous that we've managed to achieve such a level of harmony and mutual understanding in this thread.

Hmm, I don't like this ... it's too quiet ... excellent work, Bob ... damn, Kenny's an awesome JAZZ musician, isn't he? lol
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  #179  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Hmm, I don't like this ... it's too quiet ... excellent work, Bob ... damn, Kenny's an awesome JAZZ musician, isn't he? lol
+1...........

Born outsider and trouble maker Polly.....:}
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  #180  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I wonder if Kenny G has comments about Pats playing?
"An angry critique of G by the guitarist Pat Metheny has recently been widely circulated on the internet. Metheny is correct but he wastes his time and energy. The music isn't good enough to deserve an intelligent analysis. There's nothing new about the success of dumb music. The fight against vulgar and dishonest music is long lost. Better to spend your time listening to Mozart."

Kenny was too busy driving around Maui in his Maseratti's to comment.
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  #181  
Old 03-28-2010, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Mozart? That hack??

Seriously (?) Ken, that summary is right on the money. Just as well you didn't bring that out earlier or we wouldn't have had all this fun.

Stan, I can't help it. I was Born To Be Mild.
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Old 03-28-2010, 07:06 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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it's amazing to me that this discussion never goes any where. Abe, can now start another thread. are jazz listeners that most rigorous about their defense of the genre
Ken, we dont even need a coherent thought. If the thread title read sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha, it would run into 5 pages of jabber here.

Now isnt that amazing! A so called sidelined, mothballed genre that noboby really gets into, and is supposedly dead, gets the highest ratings, involvement, and passionate comment around here.

I think the epic BIG JAZZ THREAD and the DOUBLE PEDAL thread are the WAR and PEACE of Drummerworld.
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  #183  
Old 03-28-2010, 09:06 AM
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Ken, we dont even need a coherent thought. If the thread title read sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha, it would run into 5 pages of jabber here.
LOL. Now that you mention it, I don't care for sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha. Anyone with taste knowns it's not real sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjhaHA!

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Now isnt that amazing! A so called sidelined, mothballed genre that noboby really gets into, and is supposedly dead, gets the highest ratings, involvement, and passionate comment around here.
It's be be expected since we are sidelined, mothballed people who noboby really gets into ... aka drummers :)
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  #184  
Old 03-28-2010, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Hey guys, been away for a few days and come back to a monster thread. Great! Lots of love and getting up each others ass/arse's. That's quite worrying. Ah well, as I'm the guy with the least knowledge round here, & as the Irish say, I'm just here for the crack!
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  #185  
Old 03-28-2010, 12:49 PM
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... I'm just here for the crack!
And you're worried about some alternative dalliance? :-P
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  #186  
Old 03-28-2010, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

If I was a TV writer, I'd write a comedy called KIS & Polly.


....

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  #187  
Old 03-28-2010, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I am not the jazz drummer that Stan is, and anyway musicians are always getting up each others' ass.

But all of us here have a lot more in common than not. So, let's find what it is that we all have in common, I say. And you know what? We're still going to get up each other's ass!
OK, What do I have in common with the rest of you? lets see;

1) I listen to all styles of music from Classical to Hip-Hop. I like music, period.

2) I play Rock, R&B, Country, and Contemporary Bluegrass with bands. Those are the musical styles that I am most comfortable with.

3) I play Jazz privately for fun and insight. I sit down with some jazz musicians now and then to improv and jam. I don't play Jazz for an audience. I play Jazz at what I would call a mid-intermediate level. I have learned a great deal from Jazz and I incorporate some of what I have learned into the music that I play.

4) I take my playing seriously. I study and learn all that I can with the free time that I have available to me.

5) I feel that music is all about artistic expression and every musician should be free to express themselves in the way that they see fit.
I don't want to be a judge of anyone. If I don't like what is being played, I simply don't say anything and I don't listen.
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Old 03-28-2010, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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And you're worried about some alternative dalliance? :-P
I thought it apt, as jazz seems to split the forum down the middle. TV comedy Abe? I think the visual would take the mistique out of the smut ridden counterpoint composition of pom & antipodeanised pom.
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  #189  
Old 03-28-2010, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ken, we dont even need a coherent thought. If the thread title read sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha, it would run into 5 pages of jabber here.

Now isnt that amazing! A so called sidelined, mothballed genre that nobody really gets into, and is supposedly dead, gets the highest ratings, involvement, and passionate comment around here.

I think the epic BIG JAZZ THREAD and the DOUBLE PEDAL thread are the WAR and PEACE of Drummerworld.
We have over 2,000 views. We must be doing something right.:)

Maybe we should start to charge for the show, get it up on Skype and wear make-up and funny costumes. Can anyone breadth fire, spit blood or chop their head in a guillotine?

On a serious note, from someone who is overly educated and perhaps overly critical, I believe one has to develop a critical faculty to excel as a musician. Being someone who is overly educated, I can tell you that it is the one thing in this country that people look down on and it is a shame. Maybe if people developed a little criticism, these mediocre talents would get less of the focus, and that's all I would really say, that they should get LESS focus, which also means less of their share of the pie.


I'll edit this post to say what I really mean and open up the discussion to the real issue at hand.

why pick on Bob? because in Bob's posts I see the answer to the question being posed. Bob is criticizing Metheny on two grounds:

1) artist should have the freedom for self-expression and that freedom should be unencumbered.

2) he does not see a value in judging someone else's work.

On the first ground one would have to say that this is a constitutional question that Bob has proposed. I don't think that Metheny is addressing a constitutional issue at all. I don't think anyone here is and the closest thing to such is Jay's allusion to Ayn Rand and his libertarian views that obviously come through his posts. It can't be a constitutional question because if it were, then Metheny has a constitutional right to state his opinion. So as much s someone saying this is a constitutional issue has the right to state his opinion, it dies not get to the heart of the matter.

Obviously we don't want the state to tell us who or what we should listen to. When it comes to the marketplace, "caveat emptor." But what about McDonald's advertising "A Big Mac meal supersized is great nutrition for all involved. There is no better meal that you could have ". Would then people not say that they are misleading the public? If someone would to step-up and say, "Hey, that is just wrong. This stuff'll kill ya." would we then say that this guy is too critical and interfering with McDonald's right to free speech? I would think not. If someone is saying that his music is something that it is not, isn't he guilty of the same infringement of the truth? If not, Why is music different? Why is it held to a lesser standard than eating?


2) The second statement goes to the heart of the matter. This question is one of the oldest in the history of human thought. Plato spent his life making the distinction between truth and falsehood. He wanted to limit music and wanted strict controls on it for the very reason we are discussing. That belief has followed man through out history, until we decided that freedom of expression was a basic right. Hey, it's the first one. So Glenn Beck gets to speak his peace even though his rhetoric is based on convoluted logic that any first year philosophy student could see through. People not being able to see through it was the fundamental problem that Plato saw. How much intelligence do you have at a Tea Party rally?

The only counter to misguided rhetoric is for someone to say. 'You know, this just ain't right." Metheny saying it is not infringing on Kenny G's First amendment right; but his criticism will limit the amount of BS he can get away with in the public square. And that is the only correction you have in a free market society, for people to speak up and say, "I am not going to let you tear down this forest." "I am not going to let you pollute this lake." You know, you're music is not really jazz. "

It's kind of a mute point because Kenny really no longer matters. He doesn't garner the type of fame he had ten years ago. Polly was right. I looked at Best Buy today and he is in the jazz section; that is new. But there isn't a sleeve for him at Target. So he's been relegated to the corner shelf, the jazz shelf, the one where nobody goes. Poor Kenny, he may have gotten what he wanted after all.

I think if Smooth Jazz was called instrumental R and B, purists would have less trouble with it. It borrows its improvisation from jazz but it really has more in common with EWF, Stevie Wonder and Steely Dan, and we all love that stuff, so Smooth R and B is great, isn't it?
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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On a serious note, from someone who is overly educated and perhaps overly critical, I believe one has to develop a critical faculty to excel as a musician. Being someone who is overly educated, I can tell you that it is the one thing in this country that people look down on and it is a shame. Maybe if people developed a little criticism, these mediocre talents would get less of the focus, and that's all I would really say, that they should get LESS focus, which also means less of their share of the pie.
That's interesting Ken, Some of the most highly educated people that I know are the softest spoken when it comes to criticizing others. They don't see the need to belittle because they are confident and secure in their own knowledge and ability. They have nothing to prove.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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That's interesting Ken, Some of the most highly educated people that I know are the softest spoken when it comes to criticizing others. They don't see the need to belittle because they are confident and secure in their own knowledge and ability. They have nothing to prove.
Bob, is that a 'criticism' of me?

the bottom line is that you are wrong.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Ah Ken, you are a treasure. I never thought of that perspective. I'm wondering if what you're talking about is less like protesting about deforestation as lobbying for a beautiful old building to be placed under the protection of the Heritage Act. In a way, yes, in another way no (because jazz is a living and evolving thing). Then there's standard rationalism question - is an art from that cannot win enough hearts and minds worthy of protection (apart from in terms of heritage) ... the argument being that relevance and quality should decide. Trouble is those pesky marketeers and uneven playing fields.

Just thinking aloud. I'm at work at the moment so the parallels are a bit complex for me to wade through at morning tea but, like Arnie, I'll be back :)

KIS & Abe - maybe a radio show? I have a great face for radio!
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Then there's standard rationalism question - is an art from that cannot win enough hearts and minds worthy of protection (apart from in terms of heritage) ... the argument being that relevance and quality should decide. Trouble is those pesky marketeers and uneven playing fields.
Polly, this is such the battle going on now in the states, and behind it is the notion, Are people who are not smart enough to get health insurance worthy of being saved in the first place when they get ill? Darwin lives . . .lol
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Bob, is that a 'criticism' of me?

the bottom line is that you are wrong.
It was meant as a joke Ken! Sorry if it didn't translate.
Seriously, I am more critical of myself than I am of others. Personal goals mean more to me than what I think of others.
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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It was meant as a joke Ken! Sorry if it didn't translate.
Seriously, I am more critical of myself than I am of others. Personal goals mean more to me than what I think of others.
Oh, Bob, you made a critical remark. Don't try to get out of it now. :)

I know what you mean. I am one of the most overly-critical people, and never like my playing; but I'm a wok in progress so that may be a good thing.

My remark about being wrong was meant to be taken as figuratively, as in Metheny is saying that Kenny is wrong, and I am saying that you are wrong. That is the whole crux of the point. You can say to someone "you are just wrong." What is jazz? These questions are not easy to answer; but it is Pat Metheny defining it, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:38 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Oh, Bob, you made a critical remark. Don't try to get out of it now. :)

I know what you mean. I am one of the most overly-critical people, and never like my playing; but I'm a wok in progress so that may be a good thing.

My remark about being wrong was meant to be taken as figuratively, as in Metheny is saying that Kenny is wrong, and I am saying that you are wrong. That is the whole crux of the point. You can say to someone "you are just wrong." What is jazz? These questions are not easy to answer; but it is Pat Metheny defining it, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
I really did mean it to make a point in a humorous way.

We all know that music popularity is not all about musical content and talent.
Here was kenny G. Just a guy playing his music. (Not the best music, Just music)
Someone in the recording biz spotted him and they decided that he could be produced and sold.
Along came a producer who said, "Come to the studio and record on our dime."
Kenny said, "Yes" and signed a contract.
Kenny recorded, They marketed, Kenny and the company made lots of cash.

You would have done the same thing!
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

See, I don't see how Kenny G is "wrong," I just don't. Obviously for a lot of people he's "right," just like for lot of people the Black Eyed Peas are "right."

Joe Lovano is one of the best jazz saxophone players out there, he's doing well with his career and he's also a hell of nice guy, and he doesn't seem to give a row of pins about Kenny G.

Why Pat Metheny does is his business, of course, but Metheny's done very, very well for himself, he's played his music on his own terms and he's made a good bit of money doing it.

You know. Nobody else's success in any way diminishes your own efforts or achievements. Okay, American society is pretty plastic and mediocre but that doesn't at all have to reflect or impact on what you're about. Who would want it to?

Anyway, people have been saying how stupid society is getting for thousands of years. I think you have to be very firm and very sure about what it is that you want to and then be happy with what you've achieved.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

This is also the case with the simple music that I play with The String Band.
The most requested song that we play is a stupid tune called Head Like a River Stone.
Rob wrote it in about ten minutes one night when we all had to many beers. We played it as a joke the first time that we preformed it at a party.
Musical content has nothing to do with what people like!

People like what they like!
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Jay, you are wrong, too. :)

The idea is that it is misguided to call Kenny G's music jazz. To call it jazz is wrong, just like calling a Cellica a Cadillac is wrong. You may prefer to drive a Cellica; but that still does not make it a Cadillac. It's that simple.

As far as Kenny's success the question really has nothing to do with it. But honestly Jay. do you really think that calling Kenny G's music jazz made a heap of difference for the jazz market. Did he sell more Kind of Blue records. maybe. But it seems what it does is give anyone who defends Kenny G ample ground to call anyone who doesn't a jazz snob.:)

Pat alludes to the greater implication of Kenny playing with the Louie film. It would be interesting to see what people believe some of those greater implications were, especially now that ten years have passed. In those ten years, you had the establishment of JALC, so now everyone has Wynton to hate. :)
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

The words Truth and Advertising have never been synonymous.
Let the buyer beware.
Why should the music industry be any different?
Why should we be surprised?
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