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  #81  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Originally Posted by aydee View Post
I wonder if this pot boiled over because KG 'masqueraded' as a jazz player
Hey, I'm no Kenny G fan, but you can't really think he hijacked your genre, can you? Not a very resilient form if a totally vanilla guy like that can just walk in and take it over.

Anyway, he didn't hijack the genre. For better or worse, he just broadened it to a wider audience.

It happens in rock every couple weeks. Broadly speaking, rock is a genre that never rests. Somebody's always trying to take it over and be the new cool thing. Shallow as that might sound (and as much "crap" as it generates) it actually propels the form forward with new innovative ideas.

I'm not trying to say rock is "better" than jazz, but it does employ a model that is more successful to its long-term survival than the tradition-based model used in jazz.
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  #82  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Broadly speaking, rock is a genre that never rests. Somebody's always trying to take it over and be the new cool thing.

So does jazz for those playing it but not being involved in how would you know other than to pass judgement on it and it's players regardless of the cutting edge jazz music still happening today still evolving from the firm foundation of the jazz tree {roots}.

Bit of a contradiction in terms and generalization that doesn't fly now.... isn't it?........
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  #83  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Word of advice for you MikeM......

Conrad {Jay Norem} does a MUCH better of job of being a seasoned troll and manipulating others post to push one's agenda like I just saw what you did on mine,
I'm afraid I'm going to have to take you to task on that: I didn't add or remove any of your words from your post - I added my own in parenthesis and changed the color to make it clear who's words were whose - there was NO manipulation of your words. Please at least use honesty when rebutting my comments.

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And you wonder and ask about getting input from jazz players and still wonder why most jazz playing members don't post here anymore...answered your own question with your own sad behavior i'm afraid.
I'm not surprised that you were unwilling to respond to my questions. I think they're somehow threatening to you.

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Got a axe to grind Mike?
Not with anyone in particular, but there are some notions from the old guard about what music in general, and drumming in particular, should and shouldn't be that I find repressive and obnoxious. Usually I try to find a respectful way to challenge or question these notions. But like anyone else, sometimes I get annoyed.

Let me say something very sincerely:
I'm going to take off my "rock" drummer hat for a second and just say that I'm simply a drummer. I like a lot of different drummers from a lot of different styles and genres. I like a lot of different jazz drummers. I could rattle off a list of jazz drummers that I like and could tell you why I liked them. There are also jazz drummers that I don't care for and could articulate why.

The point is - I don't see a lot of jazz drummers with any curiosity or much respect for the things that rock drummers do - unless they're jazz drummers playing in a rock situation, like Steve Smith or Mitch Mitchell, for example.

I would be very surprised if you, or your typical purist jazz drummer, could name me 10 rock drummers with a basic description of their styles and what you liked about them.

I find that a little off-putting, it's true. If I have an axe to grind, then that's it right there.
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  #84  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I'm afraid I'm going to have to take you to task on that: I didn't add or remove any of your words from your post - I added my own in parenthesis and changed the color to make it clear who's words were whose - there was NO manipulation of your words. Please at least use honesty when rebutting my comments.

I'm not surprised that you were unwilling to respond to my questions. I think they're somehow threatening to you.

Not with anyone in particular, but there are some notions from the old guard about what music in general, and drumming in particular, should and shouldn't be that I find repressive and obnoxious. Usually I try to find a respectful way to challenge or question those notions. But like anyone else, sometimes I get annoyed.

Let me say something very sincerely:
I'm going to take off my "rock" drummer hat for a second and just say that I'm simply a drummer. I like a lot of different drummers. I like a lot of different jazz drummers. I could rattle off a list of jazz drummers that I like and could tell you why I liked them. There are also jazz drummers that I don't care for.

The point is - I don't see a lot of jazz drummers with any curiosity or much respect for the things that rock drummers do - unless they're jazz drummers playing in a rock situation, like Steve Smith or Mitch Mitchell, for example.

I would be very surprised if you could name me 10 rock drummers with a basic description of their styles and what you liked about them.

I find that a little off-putting, it's true. If I have an axe to grind, then that's it right there.

You'd be very surprised indeed what I know about music and drummers on a much larger scale after 42 years of being a drummer. I was a pro level rock drummer working with bands when I was 17 by the way as just one mere example to pass along. Just did a stint at the Olympics with a percussion ensemble project with a ensemble from France that was not jazz at all. I've got a wide knowledge base and have and continue to cover alot of ground musically speaking. Try me...want to talk about Scottish or Swiss Basel rudimental drumming in detail or the finer workings of great rock drummers, African tribal drumming, Gamalan music, classical music etc... etc... purist card be damned.

I'm not threatened by you trust me I only get put off debating with certain people I feel who've already have made up their mind what the answer is most times with jazz and jazz players in question even before the question is even asked. Why waste my time yet again...
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  #85  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Try me...
Okay, I'll bite. Please tell me what you think of Dave Grohl. Is he a hack? Has he contributed anything to the world of drumming? Here's another that'll probably get me in trouble since I've only ever checked him out on YouTube, but how about Travis Barker? (I actually kind of like him). Stewart Copeland? Neil Peart? (hey, you're both Canadian, I suspect you'll stick up for a fellow countryman). How about our own Derek Roddy? And you gotta like John Bonham, right? Everyone loves Bonham (okay, that one was easy). How about... oh, I know: Lars Ulrich (hint: this is a trick question).

Don't hold back! In fact, maybe you should PM me your answers if you don't want to talk smack about anyone in an open forum, I'd understand that. I really am curious.
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  #86  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Hey, I'm no Kenny G fan, but you can't really think he hijacked your genre, can you? Not a very resilient form if a totally vanilla guy like that can just walk in and take it over.
Well, my personal interests lie across a few genres. I too was a little taken aback by the degree of Pat's hostility, but I can understand outrage when a pretender walks in and pretends to be someone he is not.
I think that pretty much happens in every walk of like, every job, every department..there's always this one person, usually unqualified, usually a schmoozer, usually has a great smile, someone the rest of the office universally hates, usually gets the biggest raise. KG is this guy, for Jazz.

...
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  #87  
Old 03-25-2010, 09:03 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Okay, I'll bite. Please tell me what you think of Dave Grohl. Is he a hack? Has he contributed anything to the world of drumming? Here's another that'll probably get me in trouble since I've only ever checked him out on YouTube, but how about Travis Barker? (I actually kind of like him). Stewart Copeland? Neil Peart? (hey, you're both Canadian, I suspect you'll stick up for a fellow countryman). How about our own Derek Roddy? And you gotta like John Bonham, right? Everyone loves Bonham (okay, that one was easy). How about... oh, I know: Lars Ulrich (hint: this is a trick question).

Don't hold back! In fact, maybe you should PM me your answers if you don't want to talk smack about anyone in an open forum, I'd understand that. I really am curious.
No problem.... many where early influences and the newer guys I have all checked out and followed to some degree or another...but later.... not tonight.

In return you can promise me you'll keep a open mind when it comes to jazz music and jazz drummers {past and present} right? Agreed?
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  #88  
Old 03-25-2010, 09:04 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Pol, perhaps because the true inheritors/spokespeople for legacies of any body of work, in a larger sense are not family or estate but the profession or the community.. artistic, scientific whatever.

I wonder if this pot boiled over because KG 'masqueraded' as a jazz player ( and as someone said now finds a permanent place in the jazz shelves ) which upset a lot of community sensibilities.

Wierd Al doesn't pretend to be anything other than a 'spoofist' ( if thats a word ), and a damn good one, Yani is just Yani- defies all categories, and .. and so on..there's no pretence.
True, there are various interested parties but to dismiss the wishes of the estate as irrelevant - which speaks for the man himself - seems a bit weird. Surely it's better to look at a situation with both eyes open?

Louie's estate's wishes are clearly in conflict with that of other stakeholders, ie. the jazz community. The fact is they could have said no but they didn't. Why? I think that's important.

What KG did is not the same as scribbling on the Mona Lisa because the original remains intact, although it could be said that perceptions of the wider community have been defaced. Certainly the jazz community is not going to change their views on Satchmo based on KG's overdubs.

I have no view myself ... the song was sickly sweet to start with and KG's soprano additions just added extra sugar.

So what does the wider community have to say about MG's overdubs? Check out the on the YouTube - a few obvious jazz fans but the word "beautiful" is bandied around a lot. The taste of the wider community is bloody tragic at times lol. Still these are the critters we hope to make happy with our music unless we only care about insiders.

Also, it doesn't matter what Kenny or anyone else says, if his CDs appear in the jazz section of stores then that's where his fans look for him. He plays music that shares some features with jazz.

A more interesting question would be: What is closer to jazz? Kenny G's Song Bird or Jimi Hendrix's Stone Free? Sonically you'd have to go with Kenny but Jimi's music was closer to jazz in spirit IMO. Thing is, for the general public sonics is the clincher. You can't fight city hall. You can rail against but it makes no difference.
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  #89  
Old 03-25-2010, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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No problem.... many where early influences and the newer guys I have all checked out and followed to some degree or another...but later.... not tonight.

In return you can promise me you'll keep a open mind when it comes to jazz music and jazz drummers {past and present} right? Agreed?
Of course, it's agreed. And feel free to add any others you might happen to think of. Oh, and if I could just add a couple others... Benny Greb, Thomas Lang, and Jojo Mayer (I know they're not strictly "rock" but still...). Thanks, Stan!
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  #90  
Old 03-25-2010, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?

It's too easy to play cynical and ascribe the very worst of human nature to those in charge of Satchmo's estate ("oh, they only wanted the dollars") but it would be highly presumptuous. They might have been hugely chuffed that a bestselling modern musician wanted to bring their patriarch's memory to the forefront. Ever thought of that?

None of us know this, but to throw the whole thing on KG as though he did it all by himself with no input from Louis's nearest and dearest is clearly driven more by emotion than logic.
Suppose Van Gogh's or Monet's descendants gave permission to some commercial artist to dub over some of their classic paintings for a cut of the profits from the sale? Do you see my point? Even though they gave permission, the artist did not, and is nothing sacred anymore when it comes to making a friggin profit these days? Why do we as musicians stand around and go along with the prostitution of our trade the way we do? I just do not understand it.
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  #91  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Suppose Van Gogh's or Monet's descendants gave permission to some commercial artist to dub over some of their classic paintings for a cut of the profits from the sale? Do you see my point? Even though they gave permission, the artist did not, and is nothing sacred anymore when it comes to making a friggin profit these days? Why do we as musicians stand around and go along with the prostitution of our trade the way we do? I just do not understand it.

From Pat Metheny's perspective, I think it is less about the use of the video and more about lumping Kenny G in with other leading jazz artists, as he states in the original interview. it doesn't matter where and how he got permission, Pat does not see Kenny as any type of musician holding up the standard of excellence that jazz and great musicianship require.

The question is who gets to define the genre: the artists, the labels or the public. It would seem to me that the artistic community as a whole does that, which would include both Kenny G and Pat Metheny. I think it is important to listen to what they are saying. I would wonder what Kenny G thinks of Pat's statements. I notice he doesn't do this misguided bit any more.

This debate is several years old and I have found few jazz enthusiasts and artists who actually side with Kenny G. Jazz enthusiasts saw it as a real low point and smack in the face. Pat has a lot of support, and though there was not a public outcry among other leading artists, I would suspect that other artists were not happy with it. So the question is, should a player get away with doing something that disrespects other jazz artists? Should someone who is not playong jazz be marketed as a jazz icon? Obviously, it takes guts for artists to speak out and say "No, Enough already."

People will argue, art is about breaking expectation and often offending loyalists. But that is not what is going on here. This is marketing pure and simple. This is about making money. This is about positing yourself a long side one of the leading figures in jazz when you don't belong there. Metheny "His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring."

http://www.johnharle.com/philosophy/...hy/KennyG.html

I don't know that that was the full reason. I think it was misguided attempt "to bring jazz to the masses." One could argue well jazz is for everybody and if anything Kenny G is democratizing the genre. I would ask, Why does a specific genre of music, an artist or a style have to be for everyone? Why should a listener not have to do any study or work associated with developing a deeper understanding of what an artist is doing? Why should music need to be immediate? ?Why should it be always be banal? Why shouldn't it be something special for those who have cultivated a taste for it?
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  #92  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

As I stated before,

Kenny G stated at the time,"...I didn't want to spoil the original. I said, 'Whatever we do, if we're not going to make it better, let's throw it away and we won't do it.' So (Foster) guaranteed that it would be better, and I hope that we did a good job on it."[18] Some columnists countered the criticisms suggesting such a recording would bring classic jazz to a wider audience.[19]

So whether it was crass or not can also be debated since Kenny G did have feelings about the recording before it was done. And I don't think Kenny G ever said he was a Jazz musician. He got dropped there because what he plays didn't have a named genre at the time. And I'm sure Pat donated all of his money to charity that he made recording some "smooth jazz" songs.
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  #93  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Well taking musical lead from David Foster was probably a bad idea. When Kenny G got in the elevator and said t"his is a happening place," David Foster said "Yeah, I come here all the time."

But I think that the fact that is was done for charity does explain why the estate would have him use it, and it also does nullify the misguided attempt to bring classic jazz to the masses. Well, this tune is far from classic jazz.

What Metheny gives to charity is his business; but even the publicity generated by the recording of Kenny G with Pops generated him a lot of money. Is it really charity when a millionaire gives away money he doesn't need. There is a certain amount of money that you need to survive, and everything on top of that is gravy, and everything on top of that is just a little too much for one man to know what to do with. lol
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Old 03-25-2010, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

To me the way to handle this situation is simple. Write a musical missile directed at Kenny G with lyrics that express the depth of his.... wrongness, misguidedness, or whatever.
This serves a few purposes. It gives the offended a real way to express their views on the subject. It also would send a message to the general public just what it is that Kenny G did to offend the dyed in the wool jazz enthusiasts. It gives the offended power in that it's obvious that they're not going to sit back and take Kenny G's desecration of an icon.

Music is about expression, right? What better impetus is there for writing a scathing rebuttal than being PO'd at someone?
A really juicy song should reach more people than a soundbyte from a newsclip (or wherever Pat M's clip came from) It could turn out to be something far better than merely calling foul.
I think this would not only raise awareness among the general public, it might actually make some money for the writer. (nothing wrong with that) A win win. Write a great attack song, it might even go down in history like Johns Lennon's song to Paul McCartney, "How Do You Sleep" or Skynyrds public dissing of Neil Young in "Sweet Home Alabama". Kenny G gets publicly taken to task for his misguided actions, and the people who were offended get a safe way to vent their frustration and perhaps educate people who need it. Anyone disagree?
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  #95  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Well, this tune is far from classic jazz.
Exactly. Anyway, it wasn't even written by or for Armstrong. It was written by a couple of industry guys who then shopped it around.

It's not as though Kenny G did an overdub on "Struttin' With Some Barbecue."
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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To me the way to handle this situation is simple. Write a musical missile directed at Kenny G with lyrics that express the depth of his.... wrongness, misguidedness, or whatever.
This serves a few purposes. It gives the offended a real way to express their views on the subject. It also would send a message to the general public just what it is that Kenny G did to offend the dyed in the wool jazz enthusiasts. It gives the offended power in that it's obvious that they're not going to sit back and take Kenny G's desecration of an icon.

Music is about expression, right? What better impetus is there for writing a scathing rebuttal than being PO'd at someone?
A really juicy song should reach more people than a soundbyte from a newsclip (or wherever Pat M's clip came from) It could turn out to be something far better than merely calling foul.
I think this would not only raise awareness among the general public, it might actually make some money for the writer. (nothing wrong with that) A win win. Write a great attack song, it might even go down in history like Johns Lennon's song to Paul McCartney, "How Do You Sleep" or Skynyrds public dissing of Neil Young in "Sweet Home Alabama". Kenny G gets publicly taken to task for his misguided actions, and the people who were offended get a safe way to vent their frustration and perhaps educate people who need it. Anyone disagree?
Have we not learned anything from the deaths of Tupac and Biggie? I'd hate to see
the possie's of these two shooting up birdland.
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  #97  
Old 03-25-2010, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Have we not learned anything from the deaths of Tupac and Biggie? I'd hate to see the possie's of these two shooting up birdland.
Good point. Here's a big two thumbs up on that!
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

It is a good point. But do you really think jazz guys would take up arms over this?
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  #99  
Old 03-25-2010, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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It is a good point. But do you really think jazz guys would take up arms over this?
I took it as a wisecrack. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of violence going on in jazz culture, so I got a humorous image of some irate guys in turtlenecks (and one really cute one with curls and Don Johnson PJs) nervously pointing never-fired heaters at each other. Good bit of comic relief there, IMO!
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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To me the way to handle this situation is simple. Write a musical missile directed at Kenny G with lyrics that express the depth of his.... wrongness, misguidedness, or whatever.
This serves a few purposes. It gives the offended a real way to express their views on the subject. It also would send a message to the general public just what it is that Kenny G did to offend the dyed in the wool jazz enthusiasts. It gives the offended power in that it's obvious that they're not going to sit back and take Kenny G's desecration of an icon.

Music is about expression, right? What better impetus is there for writing a scathing rebuttal than being PO'd at someone?
Great idea, but that implies either one (Metheny or Kenny G) actually sing! LOL
It would just have to be instrumental music that implied their frustrations....

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Have we not learned anything from the deaths of Tupac and Biggie? I'd hate to see
the possie's of these two shooting up birdland.
ROTFL......

No, but I can seem them throwing sax reeds at each other......
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  #101  
Old 03-25-2010, 10:43 PM
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Great idea, but that implies either one (Metheny or Kenny G) actually sing!
There's gotta be some session rappers for hire. I'm guessing Vanilla Ice could use the work! Oh wait, that would be a scandalous desecration of KGs work, wouldn't it? Or would that be the other way around? Geez this stuff is so confusing!

Last edited by MikeM; 03-25-2010 at 10:53 PM.
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  #102  
Old 03-25-2010, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Exactly. Anyway, it wasn't even written by or for Armstrong. It was written by a couple of industry guys who then shopped it around.

It's not as though Kenny G did an overdub on "Struttin' With Some Barbecue."
It's a testament to how a song put in the right context, here the film Good Morning Viet Nam, can come to have significance separate from the song itself.

There is still enough gray area to make it an interesting discussion, the quality of the song, the charity of the royalties, the red lighting of the estate, freedom in a democratic society for goodness sake. But Metheny is talking about the larger issue and he mentions that in the article. What exactly is the larger issue though? it's the endless exposure that mediocre musicians get at the expense of those with real talent. Well fine and good; but add on top of that the question of who really gets to define a genre.Heck even Richard Thompson agreed with Pat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucgZQGPZOpk

And Kenny G defiled a great name not only supporters of Louie but 'Kennys' everywhere should be up in arms.
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  #103  
Old 03-25-2010, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Thanks Ken for that great link to Richard Thompson's musical jab. Pretty f'n funny!
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  #104  
Old 03-26-2010, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

During the mid 1980s I began to listen to Smooth Jazz. I bought a couple of Bob James albums and soon afterwards I had a large collection of hundreds of CDs from the GRP CD club.
I had never really listened to Jazz of any kind before that time! Perhaps a slight curiosity with Buddy Rich from his appearances on late night talk shows, etc.
I had grown up with Rock and Roll like most American kids who were born in 1957 did.

The Smooth Jazz only served to "Whet My Appetite" for exploring Real Jazz.
I began to buy Real Jazz CDs.
I began to study Real Jazz and I fell in love with it!

The Smooth Jazz artist that you purist so readily criticize only served to help convert me to listening to Real Jazz. They became a vessel that changed my musical life!

This is a true story.
I listen to, appreciate, and study Real Jazz today because of people like Kenny G!

Just my ten cents! (I have adjusted the amount for inflation)

I wonder if there are other people out there like me?
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

What about when that rapper did his thing over Herbie Hancock's Cantaloupe Island?

Sure HH is a latter day icon, not an original trailblazer, but Cantaloupe Island is at least an actual jazz song. Wonderful World is basically a pop song that barely squeezes into jazz ballad territory. GD's quotes about KG's talks with the producer make it clear that KG wasn't approaching it as cynically as people make out.

Strangelove, no, as I said before it is NOT akin to descendants allowing an pop artist to paint over classic artworks. It's more akin to painting over a print. Louie's original remains intact - to be used liberally in schmaltz movies and advertisements. No outcry over that? Of course not - because it's not the evil Kenny G.

I just think there's a massive hate thing about Kenny G and a bunch of people fall in line for the feeding frenzy as a "common enemy" bonding session. It wouldn't matter if he called himself jazz or not - his CDs are still going into the jazz section.

Ok, Kenny's lowered the jazz bar. Big deal. The bar is being lowered in almost every area of life. It's the joy of living in an increasingly overpopulated world with a media that finds the best way to compete is to appeal to the LCD. The standard of public discourse today is pathetic, with very few commentators interested in objective analysis. Instead you get polarised groups pushing their own barrow. Same with this debate.

Objectivity is not dead, it just smells funny.
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
There's gotta be some session rappers for hire. I'm guessing Vanilla Ice could use the work! Oh wait, that would be a scandalous desecration of KGs work, wouldn't it? Or would that be the other way around? Geez this stuff is so confusing!
I don't know.

I found a clip of Metheny playing electronica/industrial music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbbzwJllWJA

I wonder if KMFDM ever posted a rant about how Metheny did it wrong. LOL
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

What about this? Sacrilege! Shocking! To desecrate the name of Duke Ellington this way! Someone get me a glass of water, I feel a little faint. Honestly, I'm not feeling well at all.
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Excerpt from a satirical observation piece in today's paper:
All this outrage is outrageous
MYF WARHURST
26 March 2010

Ever get the feeling you're living in a world where those bitter old codgers from The Muppets, Statler and Waldorf, are sitting in the balcony seats above tut-tutting about everything? Of late, I do. And it's taking a toll on my mental health.

... enter stage left, Lady Gaga, who is in town at the moment. I'm fairly nonplussed by her music, but I do enjoy her outfits. Particularly her occasional wearing of the lampshade over her head as a fashion statement.

All was going swimmingly for Gaga until some moron in Sydney took their nine-year-old daughter to her gig and was outraged by the sexy content of show, saying it was inappropriate for a younger audience. How about doing some research before the show? Problem solved.

In absolute despair for the world in which I live, I figured, if I can't beat 'em, I'll join 'em. I can be outraged, too. So here goes . . .

I am outraged that sometimes KFC don't put enough salt on their chips, that Barbecue Shapes don't have enough of that green spice on them any more and that this week I was forced to look at yet another picture of Tony Abbott in new swimming togs that revealed he does some ''manscaping''. And that thought leaves me completely and utterly confused about life.
I guess if Pat just said, "I thought it was pretty tacky and Kenny G isn't my cup of tea" he wouldn't have made an impact on an outrage-addicted media. It's a shame that people have to shout to be heard these days.
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ok, Kenny's lowered the jazz bar. Big deal.

Kenny's contribution wasn't even in the jazz bar/arena ballpark by any stretch of the imagination which is the WHOLE crux of the issue to begin with.... LOL!


Playing the music I love and ignoring the banter and social chaos applied to understanding this music is alot more fun in the long run... no pecking order intended over others folks.......just a personal set of guidelines to live {and play music} by.

Let's all sing a happy tune together that everything is just fine without differentiation without question on even ground...... god help us the way the world is going. At least I can have the satisfaction of knowing when i'll be dead I won't have to be around to see that the general population having no clue what is art is anymore and quality in general the way the bar is heading in present times. The defining line between truly good and truly bad is getting more and more murky and clouded as I sit and in front of the computer at present or turn on the TV.. American Idol anyone!

Call me a snob if you wish for stating my firm case and opinion I could care less, at least my sense of reason and set of ears will still be intact till the end..... if it sucks who cares is the credo of the day the way things are heading......
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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What about this? Sacrilege! Shocking! To desecrate the name of Duke Ellington this way! Someone get me a glass of water, I feel a little faint. Honestly, I'm not feeling well at all.
I found that very amusing and funny!
From all that I have learned about Duke's overall demeanor, I'm sure that he would have had a good laugh also!
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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if it sucks who cares is the credo of the day the way things are heading......
OK Stan, You or I think that a musical performer or performance sucks.
That is still only our opinion. Other people may like it!
There is no reason for us to be angry!
There will always be people that like the music that you like.
If Kenny G gave up music tomorrow and his music was banned it wouldn't make any difference.
It wouldn't make more people flock to Real Jazz.
Real Jazz isn't as pop as other forms of music today. You and I can't change that!
Forcing people to listen to something that they don't appreciate will not change their minds.
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Let's all sing a happy tune together that everything is just fine without differentiation without question on even ground
What does that have to do with what's been posted?

Does the existence of Kenny G and the FACT that he is classified as jazz everywhere but in musician circles prevent others from playing music with more substance? Or does all this mean it's now compulsory for us all to play Kenny G music?
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:48 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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OK Stan, You or I think that a musical performer of performer sucks.
That is still only our opinion. Other people may like it!
There is no reason for us to be angry!
There will always be people that like the music that you like.
If Kenny G gave up music tomorrow and his music was banned it wouldn't make any difference.
It wouldn't make more people flock to Real Jazz.
Real Jazz isn't as pop as other forms of music today. You and I can't change that!
Forcing people to listen to something that they don't appreciate will not change their minds.

That's not my point at all Bob. If people only get to be subjected to the lowest quality bland tasting fast food available in general at the store how are they to know what a better quality of food taste like if it gets further and further removed out of the general available mix to choose from or get exposed to?

My point is valid even if it comes across rather harsh.......

By the way i'll keep doing what i'm doing regardless which is by personal "attitude" and "choice" towards the pure love of the music that is important to me which is important to remember. I'm long over trying to preach to get converts at this stage of the game but will still stand up for what I know is right and wrong.


Freedom of choice.......which also means exposure to stuff off the beaten track in my view which is more and more getting marginalized in today's society.
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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What does that have to do with what's been posted?

Does the existence of Kenny G and the FACT that he is classified as jazz everywhere but in musician circles prevent others from playing music with more substance? Or does all this mean it's now compulsory for us all to play Kenny G music?

It has no real substance when directly compared to anymore actually applying the art form of jazz in a credible sense. To call it jazz diminishes the efforts and contributions of others in my view to lump it all into one.

Leads to the defining lines getting completely blurred as just stated where the real jazz musicians are asked by the general public why don't you play "jazz" {?} music and tunes just like KG? Crazy s....

Sad road...no winners...for those still in the jazz trenches.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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That's not my point at all Bob. If people only get to be subjected to the lowest quality bland tasting fast food available in general at the store how are they to know what a better quality of food taste like if it gets further and further removed out of the general available mix to choose from or get exposed to?

My point is valid even if it comes across rather harsh.......

By the way i'll keep doing what i'm doing regardless which is by personal "attitude" and "choice" towards the pure love of the music that is important to me which is important to remember. I'm long over trying to preach to get converts at this stage of the game but will still stand up for what I know is right and wrong.


Freedom of choice.......which also means exposure to stuff off the beaten track in my view which is more and more getting marginalized in today's society.
Smooth Jazz has a low number of followers when you compare it to other forms of Pop Music. Smooth Jazz is just a drop in the ocean of music. It's not a force that is taking the world over.

Everyone has choice, Everyone is exposed to all forms of music. It's not hard to find the music that you like. All that one has to do is go to iTunes and explore.
No music is rammed down anyones throat!
People choose what they like as if they were in a super market.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:04 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Smooth Jazz has a low number of followers when you compare it to other forms of Pop Music. Smooth Jazz is just a drop in the ocean of music. It's not a force that is taking the world over.

Everyone has choice, Everyone is exposed to all forms of music. It's not hard to find the music that you like. All that one has to do is go to iTunes and explore.
No music is rammed down anyones throat!
People choose what they like as if they were in a super market.
What if the items in question are hidden in the back room?


I made my point.......
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

With all kidding aside, I really don't think that some are getting to the subtlety of Metheny's contention. It's not about smooth jazz vs. real jazz, or I like that vs. you don't like that.

Metheny has no problem with Bob James, Joe Sample, Russ Freeman or Larry Carlton. I myself have always enjoyed certain artists, Grover Washington, David Benoit, George Benson, Al Jarreau, even Wes Montgomery and Steely Dan who were played on the same AOR stations that played smooth jazz back in the day. It was crossover music, and Metheny has always been on of its pioneers.

For Metheny it is about how the tradition is defined and who is defining the tradition and how. That is not a question that is easy to answer but when you have an artist of the caliber of Pat Metheny is stating an opinion, it has a bit more merit than you average Joe. If you don't agree with Metheny, I would ask the question what is it that you really don't agree with and do you really understand what he is saying.

The first thing that any professional musician must grapple with is the reality that music that makes money has a functional purpose, background music in offices and elevators, theater music, or mindless entertainment. The greats have always found a balance between making music of substance and making music that pays the rent. Pat Metheny is an artist who has done that quite well over his 40 year career and is one of the few jazz artists who can actually fill a mid size hall. I think the fact that posters would disrespect him says more than anything else to my 'big ears.'
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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What if the items in question are hidden in the back room?


I made my point.......
There are four College radio stations in my small state that play real Jazz programs almost every day. There are dozens of internet stations that play real jazz 24 hours a day. iTunes has a full selection. Every major city has a night club that has a Jazz night.
Real Jazz is not hard to find.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

You know, I smell a rat here, Stan. You keep telling us how you've been a professional jazz musician for over thirty years, which means, I take it, that in all that time you've not had to rely on a day job to pay your rent and bills. If that's the case then you're one of the success stories in jazz music. Don't you know that?

In my life I've known great jazz musicians who had to drive taxis and work on landscaping crews to make ends meet. I've also known many, many players who had to play any kind of music except jazz to make a living, including myself.

You, however, are enjoying a career where you get to play the music you love, you're making a living at it, and you have drum and cymbal endorsements. Don't you know how many people would give anything to have your life? So why all this petty angst?

Kenny G and his like have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone's going to buy a Thelonious Monk record, or a Pat Metheny record, or any of the records that you or I have played on.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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You know, I smell a rat here, Stan. You keep telling us how you've been a professional jazz musician for over thirty years, which means, I take it, that in all that time you've not had to rely on a day job to pay your rent and bills. If that's the case then you're one of the success stories in jazz music. Don't you know that?

In my life I've known great jazz musicians who had to drive taxis and work on landscaping crews to make ends meet. I've also known many, many players who had to play any kind of music except jazz to make a living, including myself.

You, however, are enjoying a career where you get to play the music you love, you're making a living at it, and you have drum and cymbal endorsements. Don't you know how many people would give anything to have your life? So why all this petty angst?

No angst Jay just trying to put across the idea of commitment which can and does lead to success I have learned. This can be everything from what you believe and willing to put into print to what you bring to the music and not being afraid to say what matters to you and what you believe in which has a different "attitude" at its heart.


Good point Bob and thanks. The situation with the national radio station here in Canada got worse when they decided to "dumb down" the regular jazz features to ultra easy listening smooth "jazz" last year. So yes my personal gripe on the subject has shown its ugly head with good reason...at least in my opinion.
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