DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Off Topic Lounge

Off Topic Lounge All Discussions Not Related To Drumming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 03-24-2010, 11:49 PM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I was just joking, Larry. Somehow the internet just never really captures the mood we are truly in.

As for my take on all of this, if you listen to some really deep Storyville type of jazz, you notice that the sax players and the horn players have this most soulful and beautiful vibratto or quivering way of expressing their notes. I don't even know if I am explaining that right, but it is a certain quality that I don't really know if there is a term for. I just love listening to them, though. Satch had it. Kenny G does not. Most Kenny G fans aren't even aware of such a musical expression exists and probably could care less. So by him splicing his playing in with Armstrongs, it's like comingling fake pearls with the real thing. Perhaps I am totally wrong on my take about all of this. It's a drummer's take on an instrument I do not even play.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-24-2010, 11:50 PM
Big Foot's Avatar
Big Foot Big Foot is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: QC
Posts: 740
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

True about Louis Armstrong being a fountainhead of jazz. His contributions to jazz and popular music are no small thing. I was just pointing out how his popular stuff was looked down upon by his peers in the jazz world because they thought he could do better.
I'm okay w/ most of what LA's done - jazz or pop, I take it for what it is.
As for KG, I take that for what it is - "elevator music" at best.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-25-2010, 01:09 AM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Jazz afficiandos can be the toughest of critics upon each other that ever walked the earth. I read Metheny's roasting of KG, and while I agree with it in principle, the strict standards (pentatonic vs blues scale, etc) seem a bit overfetched. I think most of the New orleans jazz founders probably would be confused and perplexed at what he was saying. I think alot of those guys wandered back and forth including Louis. I think jazz purists often bind themselves up in their own chains.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-25-2010, 01:11 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,301
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
Jazz afficiandos can be the toughest of critics upon each other that ever walked the earth. I read Metheny's roasting of KG, and while I agree with it in principle, the strict standards (pentatonic vs blues scale, etc) seem a bit overfetched. I think most of the New orleans jazz founders probably would be confused and perplexed at what he was saying. I think alot of those guys wandered back and forth including Louis. I think jazz purists often bind themselves up in their own chains.
+1
20202020202020202020202020202
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-25-2010, 01:16 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,593
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I was just joking, Larry. Somehow the internet just never really captures the mood we are truly in.
Sorry man I feel like such a tool! I actually thought you were dead serious!
Glad I got that wrong ha ha
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 03-25-2010, 01:20 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,301
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Sorry man I feel like such a tool! I actually thought you were dead serious!
Glad I got that wrong ha ha
Larry, Everyone is a "Tool" on a Jazz thread!
Don't be hard on yourself. LOL!

It's been a while since aydee came up with one of these threads, I laughed hard when I read the IP.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-25-2010, 01:32 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
And I'm pretty sure that Kenny G got permission from the Armstrong estate to use the recording of "Wonderful World."
Here is the crux of the issue. There is no way KG would have been able to do this without the estate's permission.

So, before talking about Kenny G, we need to look at Satchmo's estate. They could have said no. Or perhaps some people have no respect for Satchmo's family's wishes?

Could it be that Satchmo's descendents were delighted that a modern popular musician would be interested enough in their patriarch and saw it as a way to keep his legacy alive? Or could it be that they rubbed their hands with an evil laugh like Mr Burns and waited for the dollars to roll in? Who knows?

Some of us pretend to know, ascribing cynical motives to KG, his producers etc but in truth they have no clue.

For the record, even someone with a username of Pollyanna but finds Wonderful World to be overly saccharine, with or without KG's noodles. Give me Mack the Knife any day.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-25-2010, 01:38 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,301
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
For the record, even someone with a username of Pollyanna but finds Wonderful World to be overly saccharine, with or without KG's noodles. Give me Mack the Knife any day.
That's what I like most about you Polly, You're just a sweet little girl at heart!
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-25-2010, 01:48 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
Jazz afficiandos can be the toughest of critics upon each other that ever walked the earth. I read Metheny's roasting of KG, and while I agree with it in principle, the strict standards (pentatonic vs blues scale, etc) seem a bit overfetched. I think most of the New orleans jazz founders probably would be confused and perplexed at what he was saying. I think alot of those guys wandered back and forth including Louis. I think jazz purists often bind themselves up in their own chains.
Its all about the music and the musicians who have made serious contributions for some of us folks on the subject of jazz. You can be both liberal, open minded but still have the edit/filter button in place to seperate the truly bad from the truly good in life without being a complete wallflower instead having a firm opinion as far as i'm concerned on the subject at hand. If its crap its crap and has no content that follows a jazz path or conceptual jazz framework/concept laid out in front of it or being based on sorry its not the real "deal". No amount of debate will make it right in my books. KG is just average commercial pop music sax player with a much better slick marketing team and record label behind him...honest truth

Pretty logical, simple and not complicated at all for this jazz musician to follow and understand.

When you want to blur the {musical} waters to accept everything "as is" and on equal ground without question you run into problems having no clue what is going on musically speaking period at the end of the day life has taught me.

You have to have conviction and a true understanding of what your opinions are on what you're standing for both as a listener and player equally alike for success either in the debating arena or on the bandstand or the end product lacks having a real firm backbone {substance} as a result from where I stand.
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:16 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,058
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Its all about the music and the musicians who have made serious contributions for some of us folks on the subject of jazz. You can be both liberal, open minded but still have the edit/filter button in place to seperate the truly bad from the truly good in life without being a complete wallflower instead having a firm opinion as far as i'm concerned on the subject at hand. If its crap its crap and has no content that follows a jazz path or conceptual jazz framework/concept laid out in front of it or being based on sorry its not the real "deal". No amount of debate will make it right in my books. KG is just average commercial pop music sax player with a much better slick marketing team and record label behind him...honest truth
Okay, so it's not right in your books. Who ever said that Kenny G is the "real deal" where jazz is concerned? Of course Kenny G's music doesn't "follow a jazz path." That's because the guy doesn't play jazz, for crying out loud. I very much doubt that he's ever claimed to play jazz. He's a bloody pop star. So what? What does it matter to you, this is what I don't understand.

I very much doubt that Kenny G will ever be booked at the Village Vanguard, and I see no way that his music could ever eclipse that of Charles Mingus. Come on, Stan. He's in a whole other universe, so what do you care?
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:31 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
Okay, so it's not right in your books. Who ever said that Kenny G is the "real deal" where jazz is concerned? Of course Kenny G's music doesn't "follow a jazz path." That's because the guy doesn't play jazz, for crying out loud. I very much doubt that he's ever claimed to play jazz. He's a bloody pop star. So what? What does it matter to you, this is what I don't understand.
Because Jay his out of tune meandering penatonic pop noodling craps a big one over top of the thing with actual real substance underneath dimishing the original recording to the same level of complete mediocrity for those not knowing the difference unfortunately. Can I be any more clear on that for heaven's sake?

Yes i'm passionate about this kind of horrid disrespect both for the music and the musicians who's blood and trail blazing jazz life experiences went into it in the first place. No winners only loosers right across the board when these endeavors in the name of "music" and usually a quick money occur in my view.

No simple trolling or wallflower behavior here from me in this debate and thoughts on the subject......
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:32 AM
GRUNTERSDAD's Avatar
GRUNTERSDAD GRUNTERSDAD is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Florida's West Coast
Posts: 15,475
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

In Kenny's defense, he wasn't too sure of doing the song to begin with.

The "duet" was produced by David Foster who also recorded the Natalie Cole and Nat King Cole duet. Kenny G stated at the time,"...I didn't want to spoil the original. I said, 'Whatever we do, if we're not going to make it better, let's throw it away and we won't do it.' So (Foster) guaranteed that it would be better, and I hope that we did a good job on it."[18] Some columnists countered the criticisms suggesting such a recording would bring classic jazz to a wider audience.[19] Nevertheless, Kenny G fans considered the live performance of this duet with Armstrong on a video taped backdrop a "show stopper."[20] Some pop critics reviewed the album Classics in the Key of G as possibly his best specifically because of his choice of classic covered songs.[21] Kenny G has stated that all the proceeds from "What A Wonderful World" go to his Kenny G Miracles Foundation which "funnel(s) the money to charities to purchase musical instruments and to supplement funding for the arts in schools."[22]
__________________
Thank you for sharing my day.
Gretsch Renown
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:35 AM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,733
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
...am I the only one who thinks jazz has an accessibility issue? ...and X isn't a real jazz muso but Y is....on one hand I'm told that jazz is a broad church and on the other, I see rigid boundries set in stone. ...What is jazz? What is "real" jazz? I'd love it if someone could answer that. ...how can anyone state that the material of a certain artist isn't real jazz.[?]

I also hear jazz musos stating that jazz is reducing in popularity. Does the forum think that just might be due to vociferous defence of the pure form coupled with identity confusion?
I think these are exactly the right questions to be asking here. I was thinking along the same lines already before I got to your post, but I'm very glad you beat me to it - because you so eloquently pointed to the thorny crux of the matter. What is jazz, and who get to lay claim to it?

I have my own ideas on this that will keep me up tonight. I may in fact skip the sleep altogether to take a shot at it - won't be the first time this damn forum has done it to me! As many of you already know, I'm not a fan of (most) jazz, but I fully maintain an appreciation for the fine drumming that often accompanies it, so I usually only listen to it in tolerable chunks. This is only to say that I think I am well qualified to give you an outsiders view of what ails it.

In the meantime, would one of you jazz players PLEASE take a stab at it?

Last edited by MikeM; 03-25-2010 at 02:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:46 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post

In the meantime, would one of you jazz players PLEASE take a stab at it?
Do a search.....i've had my say in fine lucid detail on what I live and believe as a jazz musician as well as what many others offered many times before here on the subject...not going to bother again since its just to much of a real headache and effort to cover yet again.
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:47 AM
GRUNTERSDAD's Avatar
GRUNTERSDAD GRUNTERSDAD is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Florida's West Coast
Posts: 15,475
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

wikipedia......Jazz can be very hard to define because it spans from Ragtime waltzes to 2000s-era fusion. While many attempts have been made to define jazz from points of view outside jazz, such as using European music history or African music, jazz critic Joachim Berendt argues that all such attempts are unsatisfactory.[4] One way to get around the definitional problems is to define the term “jazz” more broadly. Berendt defines jazz as a "form of art music which originated in the United States through the confrontation of blacks with European music"; he argues that jazz differs from European music in that jazz has a "special relationship to time, defined as 'swing'", "a spontaneity and vitality of musical production in which improvisation plays a role"; and "sonority and manner of phrasing which mirror the individuality of the performing jazz musician".[4]


Dictionary.com.....music originating in New Orleans around the beginning of the 20th century and subsequently developing through various increasingly complex styles, generally marked by intricate, propulsive rhythms, polyphonic ensemble playing, improvisatory, virtuosic solos, melodic freedom, and a harmonic idiom ranging from simple diatonicism through chromaticism to atonality.


Reference.com....jazz, the most significant form of musical expression of African-American culture and arguably the most outstanding contribution the United States has made to the art of music.
Origins of Jazz
Jazz developed in the latter part of the 19th cent. from black work songs, field shouts, sorrow songs, hymns, and spirituals whose harmonic, rhythmic, and melodic elements were predominantly African. Because of its spontaneous, emotional, and improvisational character, and because it is basically of black origin and association, jazz has to some extent not been accorded the degree of recognition it deserves. European audiences have often been more receptive to jazz, and thus many American jazz musicians have become expatriates.

At the outset, jazz was slow to win acceptance by the general public, not only because of its cultural origin, but also because it tended to suggest loose morals and low social status. However, jazz gained a wide audience when white orchestras adapted or imitated it, and became legitimate entertainment in the late 1930s when Benny Goodman led racially mixed groups in concerts at Carnegie Hall. Show tunes became common vehicles for performance, and, while the results were exquisite, rhythmic and harmonic developments were impeded until the mid-1940s.
__________________
Thank you for sharing my day.
Gretsch Renown
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:49 AM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,733
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Do a search.....i've had my say in fine lucid detail on what I live and believe as a jazz musician as well as what many others offered many times before here on the subject...not going to bother again since its just to much of a real headache and effort to cover yet again.
And you're also the guy who thinks it's okay to serve as your own character witness, I know... ;}
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:57 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
And you're also the guy who thinks it's okay to serve as your own character witness, I know... ;}
I live by example not by words, my actions speak for themselves by living and playing the music of which I speak going on neary 37 years now with countless other like minded jazz players in that jazz journey and musical process. This IS the music I play and love.....

Take shots at me all you want...means nothing since I have no agenda or axe to grind or have any trolling behavior to offer into this discussion only standing up for the music I live and love as I just said and those I have deep respect for who came before me and what they brought to the table on the subject of all things jazz.
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:02 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,058
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Because Jay his out of tune meandering penatonic pop noodling craps a big one over top of the thing with actual real substance underneath dimishing the original recording to the same level of complete mediocrity for those not knowing the difference unfortunately. Can I be any more clear on that for heaven's sake.
So you're saying that "What A Wonderful World" is what? A great jazz tune? A tune with "real substance?"
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:08 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
So you're saying that "What A Wonderful World" is what? A great jazz tune? A tune with "real substance?"
Just what Armstrong himself {the real substance in question} did with it Jay just like many other great jazz players did with popular tunes of the day before and after that makes it a legendary track. The jazz interpretation and the individual jazz "voice" of Armstrong brought the tune to real life.

Not my favorites for jazz tunes for sure but it sure beats the hell out of KG's by a mile take on it over top of the original that's a given for me for any real substance.
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:16 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,058
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Just what Armstrong himself {the real substance in question} did with it just like many other great jazz players did with popular tunes of the day before and after that makes it a legendary track. The jazz interpretation and the individual jazz "voice" of Armstrong brought the tune to real life.

Not my favorite for jazz tunes for sure but it sure beats the hell out of KG's take on it over top of the original that's a given for me.
Rubbish. Armstrong didn't even play on it. He was stood in front of a microphone and sang the words on the paper in front of him, didn't you know that? "Jazz interpretation" indeed. "Legendary track." Are you serious?

Louis Armstrong did indeed cut many legendary tracks, but to say that "What A Wonderful World" is one of them is ridiculous.

P.S. The song was first offered to Tony Bennett. He hated it.
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:25 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,301
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

You're a bad apple aydee! LOL!
I always liked this Kenny Tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MOa-f6l3qo

I like these guys also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI5fQbTX1_E
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:25 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
Rubbish. Armstrong didn't even play on it. He was stood in front of a microphone and sang the words on the paper in front of him, didn't you know that? "Jazz interpretation" indeed. "Legendary track." Are you serious?

Louis Armstrong did indeed cut many legendary tracks, but to say that "What A Wonderful World" is one of them is ridiculous.
Well I agree with better stuff from that period from Armstrong but this vocal take has stood the test of time for better or worse coming from this great jazz musician of his time. See if that horrid offering of it from KG over top has the same shelf life down the road.

Anyway read your own earlier post on Armstrong in reference to JUST THAT Jay if your are trying the old typical troll behavior thing yet again into this current discussion.


The more things change the more they stay the same.....i'm out.
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:29 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,058
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Well I agree with better stuff from that period from Armstrong but this vocal take has stood the test of time for better or worse coming from this great jazz musician of his time. See if that horrid offering of it from KG over top has the same shelf life.

Anyway read your own earlier post on that for reference to JUST THAT Jay if your are trying the old typical troll behavior thing yet again into this current discussion.


The more things change the more they say the same.....i'm out.
I have no idea what it is you're trying to say here, none at all.
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:33 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
I have no idea what it is you're trying to say here, none at all.
Great that makes two of us.....:}
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:40 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,301
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Let's not forget about these smoothies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6vJP...eature=related
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:49 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,790
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

http://news.smoothjazznetwork.com/?p=1598

Quote:
Metheny has recorded more than 30 albums, picking up 17 Grammy Awards along the way. He records solo and with his renown Pat Metheny Group. Along the way, Metheny has recorded such popular smooth jazz songs as “James,” “Last Train Home,” “Follow Me,” “Chris,” “Facing West” and “Here to Stay.”

(Smooth Jazz Network)
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 03-25-2010, 03:57 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,264
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
You're a bad apple aydee! LOL!
C'mon, Bob isnt this more fun than pondering the relative merits of 2 up 2 down brain teasers or was it the other way around ; )

Ya, I dont know what it is about the J word..it gets the switchblades out, every time. Funny thing is I'm enjoying this thread because I can totally see it from two contrasting points of view. Steamers and Larry's.

Both are equally valid, in my view.

Steamer's resentment ( or Metheny's for that matter ) at the desecration of his music, and having at least some personal standards as a musician and standing by them, and Larry's view that every musician has a fundamental right to express himself without judgement, and all music is at the very least, non threatening and something you can so easily walk away from, so why bash anyone?

Dualism, pluralism. I guess those fit in a music discussion.

Regarding Andy's question on jazz : Ninety per cent of all jazz is half
improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are
playing something they never played with anyone who played that part.
So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it
might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's
wrong.


( Sorry, some might have seen this before, but I get a kick out of it everytime I read it )

...
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 03-25-2010, 04:11 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

So what are we saying about the decision of Satchmo's estate to give Kenny their blessings? Not hearing much about that - which is the key to this whole thing.

I checked out a thread on this in AllAboutJazz last night. The level of hostility and invective was remarkably immature IMO. To be fair, a decent-sized minority also found the level of bile inappropriate. One asked what religion Pat was defending. A few mentioned that their wives were very keen on Kenny G. A couple of them were dragged unwillingly along to gigs and were surprised by the excellent sound quality and musicianship of the band.

It seems to me that, behind all this hostility is embarrassment. Jazzers who like playing edgy music hate the idea that when they mention that they play jazz, many people immediately think of them as playing saccharine music like Kenny G. He's bringing down the neighbourhood in their eyes. Fair enough. No one wants to feel misrepresented.

However, the horse has bolted. The fact is that people are going to look for Kenny in the jazz section of the CD shop so that's where his CDs go. There is only one effective counter - for prominent jazz players to come up with great music that is accessible enough to appeal broadly. Weather Report did their bit with Birdland. Any other takers?
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 03-25-2010, 04:20 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,058
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
So what are we saying about the decision of Satchmo's estate to give Kenny their blessings? Not hearing much about that - which is the key to this whole thing.
Yes, exactly right. "The Heebie Jeebies" or "West End Blues" or anything recorded by Louis Armstrong's Hot Five or Hot Seven are always going to stand as true historic documents of the "birth of jazz." But "What A Wonderful World?" Please...you could have Megadeath overdub on that thing and it wouldn't matter.

I just don't get this outrage over Kenny G using that tune, I really don't. It's a lousy tune, which makes it perfect for him.

These jazz guys get a little too precious in my opinion. They need to drink a cold beer and listen to some punk rock, try to learn something, you know?
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 03-25-2010, 04:33 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,301
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

This Lewis vid reminds me of me interacting with my wife.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3CcA...eature=related
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 03-25-2010, 04:38 AM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,733
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Weather Report did their bit with Birdland. Any other takers?
While I totally agree with you, I think that there's a problem in that Birdland has an enormous hook, and "serious" jazzers eschew hooks. I'm not even sure serious jazzers consider Weather Report a jazz band owing to their "pop" sensibilities. I heard Peter Erskine playing the 2 and 4 on his snare once...

But in all seriousness, isn't there a natural tension between establishing a hook (that the masses would get and, more importantly, buy) and leaving it wide open for improvisation? I don't know how you'd go about bridging that gap. And unlikely that a memorable melody to the masses could be a nearly non-repeating atonal jumble of clams (sorry, couldn't resist! But the point is there).

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
Please...you could have Megadeath overdub on that thing and it wouldn't matter.
Ha ha! LOL!
Quote:
These jazz guys get a little too precious in my opinion. They need to drink a cold beer and listen to some punk rock, try to learn something, you know?
That's kind of my take as well. The earliest days of jazz were set against some unpleasant realities (and boredom) similar to what brought about rock and even punk rock.

Last edited by MikeM; 03-25-2010 at 05:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03-25-2010, 05:30 AM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
P.S. The song was first offered to Tony Bennett. He hated it.
I am glad to hear that. I love the way Armstrong sings that song, and as far as I am concerned, he is the only one who should ever sing it. As for Tony's dissing of it, well what can you expect from that guy. I put him up there with guys like Dean Martin, if that says anything.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 03-25-2010, 05:55 AM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Its all about the music and the musicians who have made serious contributions for some of us folks on the subject of jazz. You can be both liberal, open minded but still have the edit/filter button in place to seperate the truly bad from the truly good in life without being a complete wallflower instead having a firm opinion as far as i'm concerned on the subject at hand. If its crap its crap and has no content that follows a jazz path or conceptual jazz framework/concept laid out in front of it or being based on sorry its not the real "deal". No amount of debate will make it right in my books. KG is just average commercial pop music sax player with a much better slick marketing team and record label behind him...honest truth

Pretty logical, simple and not complicated at all for this jazz musician to follow and understand.

When you want to blur the {musical} waters to accept everything "as is" and on equal ground without question you run into problems having no clue what is going on musically speaking period at the end of the day life has taught me.

You have to have conviction and a true understanding of what your opinions are on what you're standing for both as a listener and player equally alike for success either in the debating arena or on the bandstand or the end product lacks having a real firm backbone {substance} as a result from where I stand.
I am with you on the desecration of that song by KG. I was joking about the beating and whipping, but dead serious on the sacriledge. And I realize there was no wind instruments on it as recorded, so KG would have added that. I just don't think a musician of his caliber is worthy of contributing to even a pop standard by Satchmo. It would be like Madonna adding to an old Billie Holiday song - just not right, and not a good tribute to the dead.

However, my point on Metheny's critique was that the standards that he used involved strict jazz scales and not bleeding into blues styles, which only reminded me how jazz guys are so strict in what they define as their music that I think they bind themselves into completely choking it off as a living form. Everything in this world evolves and changes constantly and alot of delta jazz guys float around between jazz, blues, zydeco, creole, etc. I don't think any of the originals wrote some book that said "thou shallt only play with Acoustic Basses, Vintage Kerope Zildjians, and 4 piece drumsets, and only in pentatonic scales". These concepts have been all picked up over the years by the afficiandos themselves, including such concepts that Chic Corea is a blasphemist that should die in a muslim beheading ritual.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-25-2010, 06:42 AM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,733
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

OMG! I'm listening to the Kenny G/Satchmo duet! Ha ha! I'm in friggin' tears!! Whoaaa!! Maybe it's just cuz of the context provided by this thread, but, oh jeez... that's hilarious!

Okay, it's over now... why anyone wouldn't just get a good laugh outta that, I'll never know. Sure, it was over the top pathetic. Like beyond Disney even. Whew! Whadaya gonna do?
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-25-2010, 06:46 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
I am with you on the desecration of that song by KG. I was joking about the beating and whipping, but dead serious on the sacriledge. And I realize there was no wind instruments on it as recorded, so KG would have added that. I just don't think a musician of his caliber is worthy of contributing to even a pop standard by Satchmo. It would be like Madonna adding to an old Billie Holiday song - just not right, and not a good tribute to the dead.
Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?

It's too easy to play cynical and ascribe the very worst of human nature to those in charge of Satchmo's estate ("oh, they only wanted the dollars") but it would be highly presumptuous. They might have been hugely chuffed that a bestselling modern musician wanted to bring their patriarch's memory to the forefront. Ever thought of that?

None of us know this, but to throw the whole thing on KG as though he did it all by himself with no input from Louis's nearest and dearest is clearly driven more by emotion than logic.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:05 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
Louis Armstrong is the fountainhead of jazz. His importance to the music cannot be overstated.
That's the point, isn't it? Metheny doesn't state that he desecrated a jazz legend, but is clear that he has desecrated the most important figure in jazz.

I think an argument could be made, however academic, that Kenny G is appropriating the tune , and in that sense 'claiming Armstrong' as a pop artist. As much as Armstrong is the Fountainhead of jazz, he is also one of the most important figures in American popular song.

Of course in the jazz world today there sits the controversy of its claimed lack of accessibility. Well, you have to ask accessible to whom. It is certainly accessible to many. Why are the huddle masses of top 40 radio more important than the cultivated jazz listener? I've spoke of this before but you have to admit the irony. In my book, that is really where the snobbery lies.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:15 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?

It's too easy to play cynical and ascribe the very worst of human nature to those in charge of Satchmo's estate ("oh, they only wanted the dollars") but it would be highly presumptuous. They might have been hugely chuffed that a bestselling modern musician wanted to bring their patriarch's memory to the forefront. Ever thought of that?

None of us know this, but to throw the whole thing on KG as though he did it all by himself with no input from Louis's nearest and dearest is clearly driven more by emotion than logic.

I must chime in again....

No I didn't miss the point and that point being for me it just plain SUCKS and is mediocre that being THE bottom line from a musical {if you can call it that} standpoint IMO.

Strangelove nailed it.... pure sacrilege on several levels and I don't really care WHO approved of this abomination on Armstrong one bit...still doesn't make it RIGHT in the long run anyway you look at it, neither does speculating and manipulating the story behind to make it so in my view.

Carry on.......
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:23 AM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,733
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?
I like the original and do think that adding Kenny G spoiled it by trying to gratuitously pull the heart-strings and fashioning it into some Hallmark moment. However, I'm not convinced that that was the intent - that there was anything necessarily unsavory or sinister about the whole affair.

But I agree with you, Polly, that the main point isn't so much that is was sacrilege, because it was clearly authorized by the Armstrong estate, and likely was seen as a fitting tribute by them.

But I'm not so protective like that, anyway. Just look at how many hip hop artists have sampled Bonham over the years - probably more than all other drummers combined, and I usually think it's pretty cool. I haven't ever heard any rock drummers getting worked up about that. Maybe we rock guys & gals play by a different set of "rules", if any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
I must chime in again....

No I didn't miss the point and that point being for me it just plain SUCKS and is mediocre that being THE bottom line from a musical {if you can call it that - I would, despite that I didn't care for it} standpoint IMO.

Strangelove nailed it.... pure sacrilege on several levels and I don't really care WHO approved of this abomination on Armstrong one bit...still doesn't make it RIGHT (doesn't make it WRONG, though, does it?) in the long run (how 'bout the short run?) anyway you look at it, neither does speculating and manipulating the story behind to make it so in my view.

Carry on.......YES, SIR!
I too think that Strangelove nailed it with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
However, my point on Metheny's critique ... only reminded me how jazz guys are so strict in what they define as their music that I think they bind themselves into completely choking it off as a living form. Everything in this world evolves and changes ...
Choking it off as a living form... Wow. That's powerful stuff.

Last edited by MikeM; 03-25-2010 at 07:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:37 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,264
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?
Pol, perhaps because the true inheritors/spokespeople for legacies of any body of work, in a larger sense are not family or estate but the profession or the community.. artistic, scientific whatever.

I wonder if this pot boiled over because KG 'masqueraded' as a jazz player ( and as someone said now finds a permanent place in the jazz shelves ) which upset a lot of community sensibilities.

Wierd Al doesn't pretend to be anything other than a 'spoofist' ( if thats a word ), and a damn good one, Yani is just Yani- defies all categories, and .. and so on..there's no pretence.

Last edited by aydee; 03-25-2010 at 07:50 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:55 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Word of advice for you MikeM......

Conrad {Jay Norem} does a MUCH better of job of being a seasoned troll and manipulating others post to push one's agenda like I just saw what you did on mine, totally sad by the way but you win the prize of going to his same low level of ignorance and BS.

You have some catching up to do but you're off to a very fine start IMO.

And you wonder and ask about getting input from jazz players and still wonder why most jazz playing members don't post here anymore...answered your own question with your own sad behavior i'm afraid.

Got a axe to grind Mike?...oh yes is the answer to that i'm afraid just as Jay does in his own "sweet" way :{
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com