DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Off Topic Lounge

Off Topic Lounge All Discussions Not Related To Drumming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:04 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,057
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Yes, there are more bands using pre-recorded bits, loops, sequences, or just additional layers, and thus you do need a click to lock in. In the bands I've done it, only I have the actually click, and everyone follows me. Which is cool, because then I'm in charge!! hehe..
This sounds like a real undertaking to me. Wouldn't there need to be someone offstage running the sequences? Or if, say, the keyboard player could trigger these sequences, loops or whatever, wouldn't they be heard over the monitors like everything else, meaning that no click would be needed since everyone on stage could hear them? I mean, it's not only drummers who need to have good time.

Also, doesn't this make sound check a lot more difficult? And doesn't it introduce the great possibility for disaster if the whole thing stops working for some reason? In other words is it worth it? I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?

Sorry, I'm still not getting it, this need for a click track on live gigs. In the studio yeah, sure, that's a given, but that's not what this thread is about.

I know I'm coming across as an old fart, but the idea of "as long as I have a click track I'll be alright" just seems wrong to me.
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:15 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 9,908
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?
Sorry, I'm still not getting it, this need for a click track on live gigs. In the studio yeah, sure, that's a given, but that's not what this thread is about.
One of the best examples of the basic bar band using the click with sequenced music that I've seen, was the Queen cover band that used to do the local circuit here in Melb. A song like Bohemian Rhapsody relied heavily on sequenced backing tracks, but they didn't kick in from the very start of the song. The sequenced parts are programmed to come in, in bar 44 for example. In this case the click was vital for the band to stay in time, so that they were right on cue when the sequenced section started. I've also seen bands with no keyboards using sequenced parts to cover the lack of the instrument. Again, the parts are not constant in the song, they drop in and out. In order for it not to be a mish mash of music coming and going all over the place, the click is employed to keep the band in time.

Just a couple of examples obviously, but I hope it helps answer your question.
__________________
What's the best cape for running away from a gig?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:29 AM
Tropellor's Avatar
Tropellor Tropellor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 172
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

I play live with an MPC, the samples don't come in quite often until the chorus. So I need to stay in time until the Chorus hits, hence the click.

Also, it's just an MPC - straight into a DI and only using one power point. Not technically amazing, and not a sound guys nightmare. The whole band is Vox, Double Bass, 2x Cello, Piano, Drums, MPC.... Now THAT is a sound guys nightmare!! Although we don't play that many "pub" shows, they are mainly theatre shows with decent soundchecks.

It is strange though, sometimes the songs feel really slow, and other times they feel fast! It's strange how the mind works....
__________________
www.myspace.com/oneillchris
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:58 AM
Fiery's Avatar
Fiery Fiery is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Serbia
Posts: 705
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nate View Post
woah. ignore the band. hmmmmm.....not sure thats a good idea...
Depends on the type of music. I'm fairly sure George Kollias of Nile for example has only his kick drum and snare in his monitors live (maybe some other parts of the kit too), no other instruments or vocals. The band sounds great live, very tight and very energetic.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-22-2010, 02:36 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,786
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
This sounds like a real undertaking to me. Wouldn't there need to be someone offstage running the sequences? Or if, say, the keyboard player could trigger these sequences, loops or whatever, wouldn't they be heard over the monitors like everything else, meaning that no click would be needed since everyone on stage could hear them? I mean, it's not only drummers who need to have good time.
When I've done, I controlled the start and stop. So no need for anyone offstage.
The loops and whatever do go through the monitors, but as a drummer, it's still important to have the clock to lock in with the loops, especially for where are spaces or rests between notes.

The band has to follow me. Which they should anyway.

As for being an under taking, only to create the backing tracks. But then I enjoy being more than JUST the drummer in the band.
I have my own home recording studio, so it's not a big deal to me to make the tracks.

Quote:
Also, doesn't this make sound check a lot more difficult?
No, not anymore than having one more person in the band. For a soundman, it's no different than having a keyboard player live on stage.

Quote:
And doesn't it introduce the great possibility for disaster if the whole thing stops working for some reason?
True. But if the band works with this kind of stuff, they should be good enough to play without it too if it all goes down. The backing tracks should add to the band, not provide the major chunk of the music.


Quote:
In other words is it worth it? I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?
I never said anything about being a basic bar band.
I certainly wouldn't use backing tracks on a blues gig at the local pub.


Quote:
I know I'm coming across as an old fart, but the idea of "as long as I have a click track I'll be alright" just seems wrong to me.[
You're confusing the concepts here. I don't think anyone has said such a statement.

I'm merely pointing out why someone might use one, not that they are a requirement or needed.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-22-2010, 03:29 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,057
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
The loops and whatever do go through the monitors, but as a drummer, it's still important to have the clock to lock in with the loops, especially for where are spaces or rests between notes.
But there are spaces or rests between notes anyway, no? Still, I guess I see what you mean.

Still, time is time. But here I am talking about stuff I know nothing about.

I don't mind saying that things have changed quite a bit since I was up in the game. Back in the "old days" you either had good time or you didn't. Well, it's just the way it goes, isn't it.

I guess there were plenty of drummers who hated the idea of plastic heads!
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-22-2010, 04:23 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,786
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
But there are spaces or rests between notes anyway, no? Still, I guess I see what you mean.

Still, time is time. But here I am talking about stuff I know nothing about.

I don't mind saying that things have changed quite a bit since I was up in the game. Back in the "old days" you either had good time or you didn't. Well, it's just the way it goes, isn't it.

I guess there were plenty of drummers who hated the idea of plastic heads!
Well, I agree it's a bit sad how much emphasis is put on perfection these days.

I grew up listening to classic rock on the radio, and listening to The Who, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, et all, and there isn't much room for music like that these days. Nearly every song on the radio these days is edited to death to make it sound machine perfect.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-25-2010, 07:01 AM
geeza's Avatar
geeza geeza is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Myrtle Beach S.C.
Posts: 118
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

When playing music, everything is fair. Was it fair for David Gilmore to use a delay pedal in Pink Floyd or rap artists to use autotune or a drummer to use a double pedal. It's all fair game. You don't have to follow any certain guidelines. Just do your own thing and be creative. Use backing tracks and drum machines, Clicks and affects, Quanitise all your tracks and do steroids if your blast beats aren't up to speed.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-25-2010, 02:14 PM
ace76543 ace76543 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 162
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownie1969 View Post
Is it fair to play live while using a metronome.......before you answer a simple, "yes"...I challenge you to think about the older generations, not having access to these tools.
Is it fair to be typing that? Asking people around the world? Why don't you just ask your friends? It's not fair to ask us because older generations couldn't do it.

Too bad for them. Good for us.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-25-2010, 07:43 PM
yamahaha yamahaha is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 54
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace76543 View Post
Is it fair to be typing that? Asking people around the world? Why don't you just ask your friends? It's not fair to ask us because older generations couldn't do it.

Too bad for them. Good for us.
I don't know if I would have worded it like that, but it is true that previous generations didn't have access to the technology we have today, but your basic metronome has been around for a very long time and I'm sure drummers used them. Maybe more during rehearsal than live situations, but you can bet they were used. Personally, I try to have a click track in my headphones while rehearsing with my band. It helps me stay in the pocket, it is sometimes distracting.

As far as live performances go, I only use a click track if there are sequenced parts or a backing tracks. Other than that, I enjoy the natural feel of the slight ebb and flow of the tempo. In the end, it's whatever works for you.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 01-25-2010, 08:55 PM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaha View Post
I don't know if I would have worded it like that, but it is true that previous generations didn't have access to the technology we have today, but your basic metronome has been around for a very long time and I'm sure drummers used them. Maybe more during rehearsal than live situations, but you can bet they were used. Personally, I try to have a click track in my headphones while rehearsing with my band. It helps me stay in the pocket, it is sometimes distracting.

As far as live performances go, I only use a click track if there are sequenced parts or a backing tracks. Other than that, I enjoy the natural feel of the slight ebb and flow of the tempo. In the end, it's whatever works for you.
We did not use them in the 60s and 70s to the extent other musicians used them to practice with (their little mechanical drummer). Not to say it wasn't a good idea to improve your timing, it just did not seem to be the big priority that it is now. Setting tempo was why we as drummers were even in existence to begin with. I think it began to become important to strictly follow the click in the 1980s, when samples and loops started becoming an integral part of songs, particularly live. LOL - so many vocalists that were lip syncing would shoot a drummer if they wandered off beat from their pre-recorded vocals in a live situation. Most audience members or recorded music listeners aren't holding a group to a click, and wouldn't even be able to spot deviations, which is why it wasn't important "back in the day". I personally think it pretty unimportant and agree with your ebb and flow comment, in all musical situations outside of songs with sequenced, pre-recorded parts or in the recording studio.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 01-25-2010, 10:38 PM
bonzolead's Avatar
bonzolead bonzolead is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Clarkston,MI.
Posts: 2,211
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Whatever happen too 2 hands,2 feet, 2 sticks that's what makes a drummer.......nothing else.

Bonzolead
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 01-25-2010, 11:11 PM
Thaard's Avatar
Thaard Thaard is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,458
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonzolead View Post
Whatever happen too 2 hands,2 feet, 2 sticks that's what makes a drummer.......nothing else.

Bonzolead
What happened to being open-minded about new technology and thinking that It's not always bad? I even saw Vinnie Colaiuta use a Roland pad playing with Jeff Beck. Loops, drum-machines and live metronomes will become more and more part of the music-industry, so dismissing it will not work in the long run. It can also enhance the drumming itself working as layers etc, making it even more interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 01-26-2010, 12:01 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,786
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonzolead View Post
Whatever happen too 2 hands,2 feet, 2 sticks that's what makes a drummer.......nothing else.

Bonzolead
Well, in the late 1890's they were asking why you needed two feet, when the traditional way to play drums was have one guy play the snare drum, one guy play the bass drum, and a 3rd guy to play the cymbals.

That's what made a drummer!!

Then someone invented the bass drum pedal (Which Ludwig would soon make a practical version of).
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 01-26-2010, 02:50 AM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,589
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

"Fair"? What would be "unfair" about it? It's actually really hard to do if you're the only one with the click in your monitor, because the other musicians tend to deviate from the steady pulse, and it's solely your job to reel them back in. Try doing THAT and play with feel.

>>>So, to me, it's unfair for the drummer to have a click if the other musicians don't listen to the drummer or have a click themselves.<<<

As for the should/shouldn't factor, there are many situations out there that demand a click track...playing live with backing tracks, playing for a musical (more and more are using them, I've noticed), playing for a recording session, etc... There are plenty of reasons to work it up if you want to be a working drummer, having good time not being the least of them.

Click tracks shouldn't be dismissed because you think that they don't allow the music to breathe or that they're stupid or whatever. It would be like me dismissing country music because I don't like to listen to it. It's still out there, and it has its place, and I'll do the gig if it pays well enough, but it's not what I aspire to...
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 01-26-2010, 04:42 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,222
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

I saw Queensryche play in 1992(?), Long Beach Arena, and they played the entire "Operation Mindcrime" from start to finish. And they played with a click track. All the lighting on that tour, was, for the most part, computer controlled. And the big projection screen images. And I'm sure that "technology" was used before then, and that was 18 years ago.
I saw Pink Floyd in 1994, at the Pasadena Rose Bowl, "The Division Bell" tour, and I'd bet that was also done to a click. Look at the shows Nine Inch Nails, Tool, and Marilyn Manson throw. All that stuff is sequenced, and everyone gets the in ear click. That's the beauty of the in ear monitor.
No one holding a gun to anyone's head, however. If you don't want to use a click, don't. If you do, that's fine.
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 01-26-2010, 04:43 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,786
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post

Click tracks shouldn't be dismissed because you think that they don't allow the music to breathe or that they're stupid or whatever. It would be like me dismissing country music because I don't like to listen to it. It's still out there, and it has its place, and I'll do the gig if it pays well enough,...
Ooooohhhh......you just said what I've been trying to say all week, only you did it much better.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 01-26-2010, 05:36 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Well, I agree it's a bit sad how much emphasis is put on perfection these days.

I grew up listening to classic rock on the radio, and listening to The Who, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, et all, and there isn't much room for music like that these days. Nearly every song on the radio these days is edited to death to make it sound machine perfect.
I agree 100%.

I see thresholds of imperfection and it depends on the qualities of the music. For instance, Keith Moon wasn't precise but he brought so much energy and creativity to the mix it didn't matter. Same with Mitch Mitchell. Some of Ringo's tracks wouldn't pass muster today but there were close enough to work with the music and his drum parts and feel were great.

I really enjoy that kind of rawness and imperfection, but having said that I also love super-precise music like History Repeating by The Propellorheads and Shirley Bassey and about 90% of Steely Dan's catalogue etc.

Stasz, glad you jumped in. Great post.

We could just as easily ask if it's cheating when musicians use performance enhancing drugs? The obvious answer is ... who cares if the music has something special to enjoy? Maybe their parents and friends but I, and many others, couldn't care less.

In art, the ends count more than the means. The means are only important from a health/longevity perspective and in terms of truthfulness/ethics. So Milli Vanilli's mimed performances were false advertising.

Musicians playing with clicks are different. It takes skill to play with a click so it's not a matter of musicians pretending to be better than they really are or "faking it". They are just being picky about precision and engaging in a little risk management (or playing against sequenced parts). Whatever it takes. Same with drum machines. It takes skill to compose the right beats with the right sounds and the right changes, just that it's a mental rather than physical skill.

Do office workers cheat when they have a double strength coffee in the morning to wake up? Again, whatever it takes ...

Last edited by Pollyanna; 01-26-2010 at 06:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 01-26-2010, 06:30 AM
freebirdgdw's Avatar
freebirdgdw freebirdgdw is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 642
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

I'd really like to come into this conversation late and say something really witty and intelligent that will unite everyone and help us all learn a valuable lesson...








...but I got nothing :/
__________________
KIT
COVERS
BAND
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 01-26-2010, 06:57 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,786
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
[indent] I saw Queensryche play in 1992(?), Long Beach Arena, and they played the entire "Operation Mindcrime" from start to finish. And they played with a click track. All the lighting on that tour, was, for the most part, computer controlled. And the big projection screen images. And I'm sure that "technology" was used before then, and that was 18 years ago.
I was at that show!!!

It was my first Queensryche show of many. It was indeed late 1991 or very early 1992.

And yes, the whole Operationmind crime segment was done to a click to line up with the video projections. Scott had car review mirrors on his drum kit so he could watch the video to make sure every thing stayed in sync.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 01-26-2010, 07:08 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,786
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I agree 100%.

I see thresholds of imperfection and it depends on the qualities of the music. For instance, Keith Moon wasn't precise but he brought so much energy and creativity to the mix it didn't matter. Same with Mitch Mitchell. Some of Ringo's tracks wouldn't pass muster today but there were close enough to work with the music and his drum parts and feel were great. ...
Sort of ironic Keith Moon of all drummers was one of the 1st major drummers to use a click on stage so he could follow the sequencers on "Baba O Reiley" and "Won't Get Fooled Again."

But you also make the point I was attempting to make, in that yeah, in the past drummers didn't need clicks because they had good time, but while they may have had good time, how many would have click perfect time? Not many I'd imagine. If you put a lot of those "good time" drum tracks up on a computer grid, they wouldn't line up perfectly. But back then, no one cared as long as it feels good.

Machine oriented music is so pervasive in our modern society, that people just expect a level of unhuman perfection that wasn't expected in years past. If we took today's expectations and put them into the 60's, I bet many of our non-click having hero's would have been using clicks more often.

There is nothing cheating about clicks like. It's not because drummers today are terrible time keepers compared to drummers 30-40 years ago, but because people expect people to sound more like machines today than they used to. Which we can think is sad and wrong all we want, but it's obviously a part of many bands today.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 01-26-2010, 10:52 AM
harryconway's Avatar
harryconway harryconway is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
Posts: 9,222
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I was at that show!!!

It was my first Queensryche show of many. It was indeed late 1991 or very early 1992.

And yes, the whole Operationmind crime segment was done to a click to line up with the video projections. Scott had car review mirrors on his drum kit so he could watch the video to make sure every thing stayed in sync.
Great band. Great show. We have another click/metronome thread here: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=57917 and Bermuda's breaking down how they use the click with the "Al" show.
__________________
This seat does not recline as per Federal Aviation Regulation 121.310 (f)(3)
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 01-26-2010, 11:54 AM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,590
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

I'm late to this thread too but my take is very simple. If there's a reason to use a click to do something I can't do, then I'll use one. If I can do without, then that's certainly my option of choice. I don't believe that clicks have any value live unless the act is interfacing with a benign media such as video, sequencer, etc. The push & pull of live music is the very life blood of performance to me. Essentially, if you need a click to play live, other than the above mentioned exceptions, get off the stage!!

I'm recording next week. Basic local demo studio so lacks hi tech toys (tempo pitch compensation, etc). I'm doing one track that has a number of big spaces and another that uses a very organic vocal decent as the return. I'll be blind counting those with stick cues that start & stop mid passage so as not to interfere with cymbal sustain. Making life difficult for myself? Oh yes, but I'd rather that than introduce a machine like element to a track vibe.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 01-26-2010, 01:03 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Sort of ironic Keith Moon of all drummers was one of the 1st major drummers to use a click on stage so he could follow the sequencers on "Baba O Riley" and "Won't Get Fooled Again."
Interesting DED. Didn't know that and wouldn't have imagined it, but it makes sense now that you mention it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
If you put a lot of those "good time" drum tracks up on a computer grid, they wouldn't line up perfectly. But back then, no one cared as long as it feels good.

Machine oriented music is so pervasive in our modern society, that people just expect a level of unhuman perfection that wasn't expected in years past.
I remember having this feeling in the 80s, although my biggest issue was sound. Nearly all the popular songs had a massive snare sound - Simmons or compressed and cranked up. It was the more-is-always-better mentality of "Gee, drummers like Bonzo with the big snare thwack sound great so if we make our snare sound HUGE then it will be better still!".

But I was a child of the 70s and thought Bonzo and the other hard rock guys got the big snare sound about right - plus it had this rich organic sound. I didn't need backbeats to be bigger, and certainly not with the tradeoff of richness and flexibility.

So when playing acoustic drums in 80s rock I had to play super clean (no grace notes or ruffs) and hit super hard to sound contemporary. The BIG sound - easy on an e-drum or heavily mic'd but I found it hard work on my a-kit.

The need for big sounds and the increased expectations of tightness meant that I'd lost a lot of my favourite musical toys - improv and dynamics. That was one of the reasons why I quit drumming in 1987/8. The enjoyment no longer outweighed the hassles of setup, lugging, soreness and blisters.

If I remember rightly TR707s were coming in big-time in disco music (discounting Kraftwerk etc). Drum machines have continued to evolve to the point where you can have super-impressive programmable e-drums on a PC - very powerful, accessible and cheap. This has given drummers another tough benchmark to live up to as people's ears are conditioned more to machine-like consistency.

I like lots of music with electronic drums and sequencers but my favourite songs are still human and organic. But then again, I'm apparently a baby boomer so I would say that :)

Sorry, long post. Just another senile old cow staggering aimlessly down memory lane :)
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 01-26-2010, 07:49 PM
Mr. Pasquini's Avatar
Mr. Pasquini Mr. Pasquini is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: High Point, NC (USA)
Posts: 1,222
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
Also, doesn't this make sound check a lot more difficult? And doesn't it introduce the great possibility for disaster if the whole thing stops working for some reason? In other words is it worth it? I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?
Major acts use it because they've got the crews and money to make such a setup work. I've seen a bar band effectively use this stuff, It all comes down to practice and knowing your equipment for them. Equipment always has the possibility of failing.

Click tracks aren't cheating. A lot of people can't play to a click correctly anyway. I know I couldn't use a click effectively live.
__________________
-Ian
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 01-26-2010, 09:46 PM
GRUNTERSDAD's Avatar
GRUNTERSDAD GRUNTERSDAD is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Florida's West Coast
Posts: 15,467
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Orchestras from the days of yore until present time, have conductors. Are they cheating?? They also use sheet music.
__________________
Thank you for sharing my day.
Gretsch Renown
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 01-27-2010, 01:10 AM
Fiery's Avatar
Fiery Fiery is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Serbia
Posts: 705
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Orchestras from the days of yore until present time, have conductors. Are they cheating?? They also use sheet music.
Do the conductors use metronomes?
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 01-27-2010, 01:48 AM
Thaard's Avatar
Thaard Thaard is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,458
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

"When someone uses a click live, a metronome in-ear or sequencers with samples, who you gonna call? Time Busters! de-doo-deeee!"
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 01-27-2010, 02:47 AM
ANIMALBEATS's Avatar
ANIMALBEATS ANIMALBEATS is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: borders of Scotland
Posts: 693
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Is it fair to ride a camel with two humps instead of one???
__________________
Drumming the fine art of violence.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:23 PM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaard View Post
"When someone uses a click live, a metronome in-ear or sequencers with samples, who you gonna call? Time Busters! de-doo-deeee!"
Bravo, you just pinpointed the complete rediculussnus of being in perfect time.

I still hold my position that you need them if your group is adding samples into a song. If not, why use them?
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 02-02-2010, 03:55 PM
stasz's Avatar
stasz stasz is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Illinois, US
Posts: 2,187
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

[quote=Pollyanna;657016]
Stasz, glad you jumped in. Great post.
QUOTE]

Thanks, I can't seem to find my post? i forgot that it existed and i was really confused, as of now your response is the only proof that it ever existed.

Anyway, I really think there are some great things being said about this subject, and especially how the idea of "cheating" is just bogus. And pollyanna hit the nail on the head with the milli vanilli example, that of course there's a question of ethics when you take it that far, seeing as they weren't even performing the music, even if it still sounded good to the audience. however I still think we should wholeheartedly embrace new technology that allows us to take recorded & live music to a place where it's never been before. Take this youtube video of joe tomino with the dub trio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9iRwW9GIdA

After the double bass assault in the beginning, listen to tomino's use of electronic delay on his backbeat to create the dub sound. Not only is this use of technology new and creative, it's not easy. He's juggling keeping a steady groove AND working the electronic pedals......so technology is not always just to make things as easy as possible
__________________
"If you think you're more important than the drums, you've got another thing coming." -Tony Williams
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 10-21-2011, 07:15 PM
Spreggy's Avatar
Spreggy Spreggy is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 774
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

After playing gigs with a click for ten or twelve years, I can tell you all ranting about feel and humanity and musicality are wrong. If you aren't playing good time, what good is your little push and pull in the music? How are you going to bring tension and release without having the center of your beat on the money?

When I joined this band, one of the other drummers told me that sure, you think you have good time, but wait until you've learned to play a few sets of music to a sequence, you'll find out just how dirty your time sense was. He was right, my playing literally leaped forward in huge steps. So you want to learn to sound tight? Learn to play your creativity and feel and blah blah around excellent time. There's a reason they use a click in the studio: it sounds better.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 10-21-2011, 10:33 PM
Doctor Dirt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

As soon as the people who come to watch and listen and especially the dancers become upset with my sense of time I'll have to look into how I can better it. For now I think I'll rely on my sense of "feel" and work off the energy levels of my fellow mates. I'm not perfect at anything I do if the gigs were perfect why keep going to them, the challenge to play well would be met. Then again I had a dream a while back that I played electronic drums with a female fronting the band and Hermans Hermitts were the best band EVER!!
Wait a minute that was the night mare I had dropping off of morphine after the accident last year. Thats a scary thought........................................... ...............electronic drums!!
Doc
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 10-21-2011, 11:11 PM
GRUNTERSDAD's Avatar
GRUNTERSDAD GRUNTERSDAD is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Florida's West Coast
Posts: 15,467
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
Do the conductors use metronomes?
No. Because no one really cares if they are 160 BPM or 158 if the sound is good.
__________________
Thank you for sharing my day.
Gretsch Renown
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 10-21-2011, 11:34 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Conductors sometimes use metronomes depending on context. The rôle of the conductor is much more than just dictating time and sometimes it's necessary for them to use a metronome in commercial settings (e.g. tracking strings for a band) or especially for theatre work where there are sequencers used or visuals.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 10-22-2011, 12:29 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spreggy View Post
When I joined this band, one of the other drummers told me that sure, you think you have good time, but wait until you've learned to play a few sets of music to a sequence, you'll find out just how dirty your time sense was. He was right, my playing literally leaped forward in huge steps. So you want to learn to sound tight? Learn to play your creativity and feel and blah blah around excellent time. There's a reason they use a click in the studio: it sounds better.
I know that feeling. I was in a band where the guitarist was heavily influenced by The Edge. There was a particular song that was all 16ths with digital delay. If the tempo pushed or pulled the thing would go out of synch.

I used to dread that song. In hindsight, I'm amazed that most times we got through it ok. Still, I can hear myself not quite letting loose and there are moments where I'd be sneaking on top of the beat and then had to pull back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYIR9RwAF_Q

Earlier this year my band recorded a few songs. On a whim, I asked for a click. So we started the song and within two bars - no exaggeration - everyone in the band had pulled away from the click and me.

In hindsight I should have asked for a few extra bpms to get to the tempo as they were hearing it but I figured we should be able to do it. Tried again and straight away another train wreck. So we recorded the tune without click.

I prefer music done in a more organic way but I have respect bordering on awe for people who can play naturally and effectively with a click.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 11-09-2011, 06:34 PM
drum loops drum loops is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

It is fair, but just go with the play and play the music, don't be still while trying to play go with whatever your band is doing.
__________________
Drum Loops
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:32 PM
don strandberg don strandberg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 75
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Just a couple of ideas.

1. Yes its fair.
2. Dont ask a drummer to play to a click. If the whole band isnt on it.
3. Practice with a click. Yes some of the great music of all time was down naked. But it will only inprove your time. Just another tool. That you may need to add to your resume.
4. Dont ask a drummer to play to a click. If the whole band isnt on it.. Yes I repeated this. There will be war going on in your headphones. And nothing can be done about it.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 11-28-2011, 11:18 PM
Deathmetalconga's Avatar
Deathmetalconga Deathmetalconga is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 7,228
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbike View Post
Metronomes were invented in 1812 so any drummer who played without one in the history of the drumset CHOSE not too.

I think playing live with a click is something every drummer should be able to do. Practice with a click is ESSENTIAL.
Very well put.

The problems of not playing to a click when you should, are much, much greater than the problems of playing to a click when you should not. This whole conversation has been turned on its head.
__________________
Ironwood kit Tiki kit Openhanders Vids
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 11-29-2011, 12:46 AM
Jack Boyd's Avatar
Jack Boyd Jack Boyd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 215
Default Re: Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

My band plays classic rock covers (mostly) and I play live, with a click in my ear. It's a tool I want to have available and the band can have confidence that our time is not subject to mood, interpretation, crazy guitarists, bad memory, etc.

The good news is: I can hear what the time should be.
The bad news (sometimes) is: I can hear what the time should be.
__________________
Ask me about The Drumbourine.

\,,/
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com