Super-simple drumming

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by bermuda

I used to try and talk sense to drummers who were clueless that way, and now I embrace them and let them go on their merry, busy way. They make me look good!

Bermuda

Ha ha, oh man. When will people realise that if the song sounds good, they sound good?

Imagine a brick layer with the mindset of some of these drummers.

CLIENT "Okay, here are the plans for my new brick fence. As you can see it is a single row fence dividing this boundary. Now I have to go out, but I expect it to be finished when I return. Is this okay with you Mr brick layer?"

Mr Brick Layer. (Thinking to himself before answering) "Oh boy oh boy. One line, what is this joker thinking. I'll show him. I can have that one line down the middle, but I can offset that with some 45 degree angles that'll set that off. Ooh, then I can build a fortification and he'll wish he'd though of it. Man, I will be so impressive!"
Mr Brick Layer "1 line according to these plans? No problem! Leave it with me.

CLIENT, 8 hours later upon return. "WTF is this????!!!"



*NOTE. I am having pc trouble. Sorry to mistakenly delete and edit etc etc. I know not what is happening. Wy.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by wy yung

"But I just worked out this hyper active syncopated groove. I'm sure it will sound great on this slow love ballad."

Sure mate. NEXT!

Wy, do you realise you may have tossed a skilled dada artiste out of the studio? You assumed he was just a tosser throwing his chops around but he may have been attempting to echo the nonsensical qualities of public discourse in society through the juxtaposition of incongruent musical forms ... <|%O}

Sadly, not all studios appreciate accidental dada.

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Wy, do you realise you may have tossed a skilled dada artiste out of the studio? You assumed he was just a tosser throwing his chops around but he may have been attempting to echo the nonsensical qualities of public discourse in society through the juxtaposition of incongruent musical forms ... <|%O}

Sadly, not all studios appreciate accidental dada.

Yeah, perhaps I ruined an historical moment in drumming????

Nah, I saved music from crap drumming. ;-)

Sadly the guy is a fine drummer. He just doesn't know when to shut up.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by bobdadruma

It's not only drummers that try to overcomplicate things sometimes. My band had to give up on a guitar player a few years ago because he would always put a riff or an affect into the mix that didn't belong.
I had to learn the hard way about playing what fits. I went through a period when I was younger where I overplayed myself out of gigs.

Most of us did that. And the drummers who grow out of that phase are the ones who have a shot at working with bands that make money.

Bermuda

[bobdadruma]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Most of us did that. And the drummers who grow out of that phase are the ones who have a shot at working with bands that make money.

Bermuda

I had a man come up to me at a gig and say, "I notice that you aren't a flashy drummer. You don't play a lot of fills and stuff" In the next sentence he said, "I used to play the drums" I think that that says it all!

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by bobdadruma

I had a man come up to me at a gig and say, "I notice that you aren't a flashy drummer. You don't play a lot of fills and stuff" In the next sentence he said, "I used to play the drums" I think that that says it all!

Hehe, poetic, Bob. I guess the guy's approach to drums was My Way Or The Highway.

Poor bugger. Look at all the fun he missed out on. I (almost) feel sorry for him.

Wow, I've just done two short posts in a row - is it a record? :)

[Late Bloomer]

After looking at a couple of live youtube clips of her playing, it seems the plan was to have the audiences attention mainly on Jack. If it wasn't for the fact that she is pretty hot, she would be booed off the stage. There's a drummer who can play a simple solid groove and someone who can only play a basic beat. I think the second one describes how Meg plays. Am I being a bit harsh?

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by wy yung

What if you were presented with a beautiful piece of music and all that was required was one note at the finale on the bass drum? Would you refuse to do this? Would you recommend another drummer take your place?

I'd be more than happy to play one beat on the kick as you describe. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "I wouldn't play as simply as Meg". That wasn't the message I was trying to deliver. You will see I expand on that in my later post. To me, there's a big difference between playing a basic beat and delivering a basic groove well. Both use exactly the same patterns and sticking but the latter employs dynamics to add presence & texture. It's the dynamic I miss in Meg's drumming. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I've already said, she does the job very well in the eyes of the paying audience. Ultimately, that's what matters. It's just that she doesn't push my buttons from a musician's perspective. I haven't got time to go into my complete thoughts on simple drumming, but if you read the body of my posts on this forum, you'll soon come to the conclusion that we're reading off the same page. I'm probably DW's most frequent advocate of simple drumming.

I'm one of the most simple rock drummers out there. I judge most drummers by their ability to play the most simple of grooves with authority & passion. The more simple the groove, the more difficult it is to pull off & sound great doing it.

[Pollyanna]

From Wikipedia:

Meg White's minimalistic drumming style has been the subject of much debate over the course of the twelve years she has been playing. Meg has never taken a lesson ... Jack White downplays criticisms of her style, insisting:

"I never thought 'God, I wish Neil Peart was in this band.' ... It never would have worked with anybody else, because it would have been too complicated... It was my doorway to playing the blues."

Of her playing style, Meg White herself says:

"I appreciate other kinds of drummers who play differently, but it's not my style or what works for this band. I get [criticism] sometimes, and I go through periods where it really bothers me. But then I think about it, and I realize that this is what is really needed for this band. And I just try to have as much fun with it as possible

... I just know the way [Jack] plays so well at this point that I always know kind of what he's going to do. I can always sense where he's going with things just by the mood he's in or the attitude or how the song is going. Once in a while, he throws me for a loop, but I can usually keep him where I want him."

What Meg has that many drummers with more chops than her don't have is the discipline of a pro. She serves the music with a singular focus.

The White Stripes have shown us more clearly than anyone that even the simplest patterns can work just fine if the music calls for it. Billy Cobham opened up drumming one way, Meg the other. Anyone who opens up drumming possibilities is AOK in my book. I find it more inspiring to see someone who's a "worse" drummer than I am being artistically successful than seeing a chop monster play things I couldn't play if I lived to be 100.

KIS, I've seen some mighty rough live recordings of Meg on YouTube so I do see your and others' point. Sure, she's an amateurish pro but she plays with plenty of passion and when it works, especially with studio mod cons, she sounds great. How about the drum track of the studio version of Icky Thump. That pushes my buttons :) When she comes in with the big beat - open hats and big snare/kick - it ROCKS! Great sound and drive.

She's had luck come her way, sure, but you have to admit that she's grasped her chance with both hands and gone for it, even if The WS aren't your thing.

[TTNW]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

If Meg quit the band who here could fill the White Stripes drum stool without him wishing Meg would come back? Maybe Bermuda in a wig :)

This has become a very good thread. I've reread it a few times so I could better absorb everyone's point of view. Polly, your last point illustrates your talent for getting at the heart of the matter.

The conversation as it relates to "Super Simple Drumming" has evolved into revealing what is behind your initial observation.

Artisticly essential rythms.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by TTNW

This has become a very good thread. I've reread it a few times so I could better absorb everyone's point of view. Polly, your last point illustrates your talent for getting at the heart of the matter.

The conversation as it relates to "Super Simple Drumming" has evolved into revealing what is behind your initial observation.

Artisticly essential rythms.

Thanks TT. I'm winging it, just thinking aloud trying to tease out what the nub of this in a practical sense. What does serving the music mean? Maybe just being yourself as much as possible, like the way you'd react in a conversation?

I'm really thinking a lot about my musical choices. Such as ... what can I play well? Not just play with the risk of looseness that detracts, but play well? Not just be fairly correct but something that helps the song be satisfying emotionally for listeners.

I'm also realising that I don't have to follow every major accent in a tune or play fills in every transition. How much of the groove can I delegate to the other member? Does that crash add or detract, not just at that moment but in context of the complete song? etc etc. I'm interested to see how the band members respond musically if I strip something back.

It seems that every time I take something out, or do anything to be less prominent, I get the thumbs up. A lot of musicians seem to just wish we'd stay in our box and stay out of the way until summoned :)

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

When she comes in with the big beat - open hats and big snare/kick - it ROCKS! Great sound and drive.

She's had luck come her way, sure, but you have to admit that she's grasped her chance with both hands and gone for it, even if The WS aren't your thing.

Yes, I'll completely go with that. I actually quite like the track and her drumming on it. I don't think it needs one extra beat. And that's my point that others seem to miss. I'm not advocating adding even the slightest thing other than greater dynamic through expression. Actually, that doesn't apply to this track as I think it rocks quite nicely but it does apply to a lot of her other work I've heard in my humble opinion. I'll admit to not having listened to a lot of White Stripes stuff though. Can we drop the Meg thing now please. It's the main theme of the thread that I'm interested in. I like simple, simple works, simple sells and simple is a superb vehicle for players to express themselves if only they'd realise it. To add to that, simple is difficult, requires skill and arrangement prowess to make it work.

[Royal]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

[indent]Meg White's minimalistic drumming style has been the subject of much debate over the course of the twelve years she has been playing. Meg has never taken a lesson ...
.

Since when did being successful mean you were talented?

Meg White's playing (& others like her) fuel the,
"What do you call a person who hangs around with musicians" jokes.

Her playing fits the music? So what. She's fashion. Not talent.
We don't have to like it.

[TTNW]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

It's the main theme of the thread that I'm interested in. I like simple, simple works, simple sells and simple is a superb vehicle for players to express themselves if only they'd realise it. To add to that, simple is difficult, requires skill and arrangement prowess to make it work.

In this context, simple means to me, not complex or complicated, having fewer parts and or one ingredient. Much like the literal definition of the word.

Ironically, many believe like you stated that playing simply is difficult. I would disagree. Simple is easy. Simple drumming is minimalist and simplified further, it should demonstrate a gathering of the fewest possible elements.

Add the elements of skill, musical arrangement, transitional choices, dynamics, accents and nuances and what was simple and may still seem simple is actually quite complex. This subtlety is what I believe is the true virtue of this style of playing that so many drummers admire and aspire too. Hence, all the contradictions in terms. Simple is difficult, less is more, quiet crescendo, etc..

With regards to my playing, this is why I know I can take a simple beat, gently pushing and pulling around the 2 and 4, and with my years of playing experience add all the aforementioned complexities and make it sound and feel good. Usually someone with a few months or even years of playing experience cannot.

This is also why I threw in an alternative, a few posts back, as to the semantic juxtaposition between simple and complex. i.e. essential and non-essential

Food for thought. Super simple drumming that sounds and feels good is NEVER as simple as it sounds.

[bobdadruma]

Did you ever drag a few friends to a Jazz festival who weren't Jazzers?
Did you watch their faces as they watched the concert? I'll bet that they got that deer in the headlights expression on their faces after only a short while! Then they tried and act like they were into it and they began to tap their foot out of time because they simply can't process the music that they are hearing into something that makes sense to them.
Later on, they admit that the music sounds like everyone in the band was playing a different song.

Simple is better if you want to please the masses and go home from a gig with some cash in your pocket.
Most of the musicians that I play with would be lost if I began to play complicated rhythms. I have experimented with this in the past. I've be playing with some average musicians and I get an idea that involves syncopation. I begin to play it and within two measures all is lost! Even many musicians can't handle complicated.

[Boomka]

Originally Posted by Royal

Since when did being successful mean you were talented?

Meg White's playing (& others like her) fuel the,
"What do you call a person who hangs around with musicians" jokes.

Her playing fits the music? So what. She's fashion. Not talent.
We don't have to like it.

I'd prefer to say that players like Meg remind the rest of us that it's simpler than we think to make meaningful music that moves people. Isn't that what we're trying to do?

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by TTNW

Ironically, many believe like you stated that playing simply is difficult. I would disagree. Simple is easy. Simple drumming is minimalist and simplified further, it should demonstrate a gathering of the fewest possible elements.
.

I think my problem here is that I'm generalising too much. When I said "simple is difficult", I should have expanded to say "playing simple well such that it sounds superb, is difficult".

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Royal

Since when did being successful mean you were talented?

That's a key concept that applies in so many areas of music.

Being technically accomplished does not make one a good musician.

Playing simple parts doesn't make them wrong, and playing complex parts doesn't make them right.

Being a good drummer doesn't mean endorsements will come your way.

Britney sold millions of albums, Miles Davis didn't.

Etc, etc, etc

There are many things that a hopeful player must understand about music and the business of music, primarily that there are few consistent rules for success, and strategies for getting ahead vary widely and are mostly subjective.

Just as our observations are about what's good, or bad, or who enjoys success despite seeming lack of qualifications.

With regard to Meg and the parts she plays, I think it's very unfair (and rather petty) to be jealous or overly-critical of her success beacuse she doesn't play enough notes to satisfy every drummer. The fact is, she plays exactly enough notes for Jack and his songs. Anyone who comes along and does anything different is doing it wrong.

Nobody has to like the every drummer or every genre, but it will be a much easier road ahead for the players who accept the diversity of styles and what it takes to serve those styles best, than for players who refuse to understand that what happen in music happens for various, often curious reasons, and to just roll with it.

It's a lot less frustrating for players who can say "it is what it is" than those who get worked up over why it's that way.

Bermuda

[Boomka]

Originally Posted by bermuda

It's a lot less frustrating for players who can say "it is what it is" than those who get worked up over why it's that way.

Bermuda

And if I can say anything about my own life/career, it's that I wish I'd come to that realisation much sooner. That said, perhaps it's just the order of things to rail against the status quo before - hopefully - tilting at fewer windmills.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Boomka

And if I can say anything about my own life/career, it's that I wish I'd come to that realisation much sooner. That said, perhaps it's just the order of things to rail against the status quo before - hopefully - giving up tilting at windmills.

This is the beauty of forums like this, where a wide variety of experiences can be shared. There was certainly nothing like this when I was up & coming, and I made my share of counter-productive and just plain bad judgements on my own, without the benefit of someone more experienced warning me what to expect.

Something I learned a long time ago, and it wasn't about music but it applies, is that if you want to be successful, do what the successful people do. It's such an obvious concept, yet nobody wants to believe things are that simple.

So, the way that translates is, if you want to be successful playing drums, play the parts that successful drummers are playing. I know that everyone's idea of success is a little different, but it works no matter where it's applied. If it's for Country music, play those parts. Fusion, play those parts. Olides in some smoky bar on weekends, play those parts.

There are a handful - and I mean a handful - of drummers who have broken barriers or are extreme and noteworthy. But for 99.999% percent of us who will not end up being one of those drummers, we've got to do things the way they've always been done in order to enjoy success the way the less-extreme drummers always have.

If anyone cares to buck the system, good luck and I wish you a good fight. I'm going to just quietly plod along and enjoy my career in music.

Bermuda

[TTNW]

Pearls of Wisdom people.

I realized long ago that I would not be a "superstar" in my chosen career. (Photography)

"It is what it is" is a wonderful way to enjoy the simplicity of art for art's sake.

Music is an art form! Hasn't every one here played at least one thing whether it was heard by others or not, and you knew it was a special moment..

.. an expression of your musicality, simple or complex, that was valuable?

BTW, does anybody else here think Fred Armison's intranscribable norse epic "Otensuchr" written for the standard 37 piece kit was "SIMPLY" funny?

[stabmasterarson]

Meg White is now my role model. Screw practicing. I just gotta find a trendy band to play for, then everyone will say that my drumming is awesome and suits the music because the band is trendy and the mass appeal of the music is really the end all be all of being a musician.

/sarcasm

[larryace]

Speaking from my own experiences, what I went through (I'm guessing) is probably true for a great majority of drummers.

At first you start out with the best of intentions. You play with emotion and try and impress. You go to great lengths to get better "chops" so we can really impress people with how "great" a drummer we are. This can last a very long time. The problem with that is, it's mostly ego based, which I've come to learn is the worst place to be playing from. THE WORST.

Drummers, more than anyone in the band, have to sacrifice what they (initially) want to do for the betterment of the rest of the band, and the song. If you stick with drumming long enough, hopefully you get past the ego barrier (ego meaning, I just want to play something to "add my own flavor" to it) and that is when the best part of the journey begins. You realize that the drums have a very specific role in the music, the most important being to give the others a solid gridwork so they can use it as a steady foundation on which to create their musicality.

So, with me the focus shifted from impressing people, to giving to your bandmates what they needed, which is usually simplifying things and creating space for them. Then, if you are really astute, you realize that playing simply is easy, (compared to busier playing) but playing simple parts that feel really great is more of a challenge and not "easy". Hopefully this is enough to fill our own needs.

I really like Wy Yung's analogy about the brick layer. The other musicians feel more comfortable when they can "predict" where we are going. We are the road that they drive the musical vehicle down. If that road takes unexpected turns and dips ("adding our own flavor") it creates a situation where not only does the other guy have to get his part right, now he has to deal with the fact that the "road" may change unexpectedly. Generally this doesn't help the other guy with his part, it distracts him from it. On the other hand, if we keep the road "predictable enough", then he/she is freer to realize their concept of what their particular part should be.

Our role in the band extremely important, and the second you leave that role temporarily to "impress" or "add your own flavor", is, in my opinion, a regression. We are there for the others to cling to, I want to make it so easy for them to cling to, that they feel safe with me and know that I "get" what they require in a drummer.

Now when you get to the point of giving them that predictable road to drive on, and are still able to "add your own flavor" without regressing, that's the goal in my book.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by stabmasterarson

Meg White is now my role model. Screw practicing. I just gotta find a trendy band to play for, then everyone will say that my drumming is awesome and suits the music because the band is trendy and the mass appeal of the music is really the end all be all of being a musician.

/sarcasm

Now you've got the idea!

I don't know about the awesome drumming part, but everything else sounds about right.

[wy yung]

Reading this thread, I get the impression that some misunderstand the basic idea behind simple and busy drumming. Some are quick to criticize a simple groove as if it's an affront to the possibilities of the drum set. Whether a groove is busy or simple is not the point. Below I will hopefully give the answer. It's not about the drumming it's about.........









MUSIC.



Yes, that is what it's all about. Perhaps there should be another thread entitled Appropriate drumming, because that's what it's about. Not busy, not easy, appropriate.

I am a drummer. I am also a percussionist who works with drummers. I hire drummers. Okay, let's get this again. I hire, i.e. pay drummers.

Right, now if a drummer comes in and plays inappropriately, I do not hire that drummer again. This means that if I am putting together a Rush cover band and the drummers comes in and plays Meg White parts, the drummer is being inappropriate. If on the other hand I want a guy to play James Brown covers and he plays busy fills every 4 or 8 bars, he is playing inappropriately and will not get the gig.

Bottom line; The music comes first. Any drummer who does not understand this concept is unworthy of being called a musician. He can be called a drummer. But music is played by musicians. I believe this mindset is why the drummer jokes exist to this day. Too many drummers think the drumming is more important than the music. It is not.

It's easy to see why so many drummers, especially young ones get so caught up in the drumming is everything idea. The shape of the kit is kind of a prison. There the drummer sits, surrounded by pieces, by walls that separate him or her from the other musicians. The other musicians walk to each other and talk while the drummers sits in his prison. They are usually standing while we sit.We're kind of alone. But as Bruford said many years ago now, "life exists on the other side of the cymbals". And he was right.

Those bagging Meg White for playing appropriately should stop and reconsider.

[Pollyanna]

I agree KIS. I didn't mean for Meg to feature quite so much but she does act as a good synedoche for simplicity in drumming. It used to be guys like Ringo and Charlie and Simon Kirke but the WS took it a step further. Must admit it was funny seeing you - of all people, a modern DW legend of simplicity - cast on the non-simple side through an ambiguous statement :-D

Just before we de-Meggify, one more think I like about her style - it's distinctive. The simpler you play the easier it is to sound like everyone else. You can't mistake her style, though. She'll play that sparse quarter note kick/floor tom beat when others would be playing backbeat variations. The arrangements have all these dropouts and in most songs you can identify three or more different moods and sections. Yet common for other drummers to play minor variations over a single beat type with fills and it ends up sounding more same-y and less dynamically varied than what she does.

Meg plays the way we rockers probably should have played when we started out instead of throwing in all these sloppy fills and losing time. As a YouTuber put it "Meg knows where the one is" :)

Larry, interesting point about drummers often needing to sacrifice more for the band than others (could probably add bassists to that too). It's a bit paradoxical because we have a massive say in how a song comes across.

Bermuda has laid down a good roadmap for drummers to give themselves the best chance of making a career in music IMO. But at this stage of life, commercial success isn't on the radar of a lot of us.

Like many here, I'm more looking for artistic success. Simplifying seems to be a big part of that for me, stuff like:

* when a song starts, not needing a few bars to get warmed up but getting it happening right from the first beat - to enter songs or sections of songs with a bang

* getting key fills and motifs to really "speak" rather than just being (kind of) correct

* to not get caught up with trying to do drummerly things and then realise that I'm not 100% with the other musicians

* to understand the song and not just go into auto mode ... if a song doesn't need drumming or maybe just djembe or a completely different approach, then go for that

* to recognise key spots in a song where it can tug at the heartstrings or get people's feet tapping and do what's needed to best achieve the effect.

Nothing grand there, just thinking a bit more like a producer.

[drumstix]

The Drums is the base of any groove and that strong foundation will be totally lost if it got complex.
I'm religious when it comes to keeping it simple.
I have a quote " A good drummer is not what he plays but what he does not"
So its not really in what you know to play but how you refrain from playing all that you know ;-). and that's going to reduce the complication and keep the Groove.

[intheruff]

Originally Posted by wy yung

Reading this thread, I get the impression that some misunderstand the basic idea behind simple and busy drumming. Some are quick to criticize a simple groove as if it's an affront to the possibilities of the drum set. Whether a groove is busy or simple is not the point. Below I will hopefully give the answer. It's not about the drumming it's about.........











MUSIC.



Yes, that is what it's all about. Perhaps there should be another thread entitled Appropriate drumming, because that's what it's about. Not busy, not easy, appropriate.

I am a drummer. I am also a percussionist who works with drummers. I hire drummers. Okay, let's get this again. I hire, i.e. pay drummers.

Right, now if a drummer comes in and plays inappropriately, I do not hire that drummer again. This means that if I am putting together a Rush cover band and the drummers comes in and plays Meg White parts, the drummer is being inappropriate. If on the other hand I want a guy to play James Brown covers and he plays busy fills every 4 or 8 bars, he is playing inappropriately and will not get the gig.

Bottom line; The music comes first. Any drummer who does not understand this concept is unworthy of being called a musician. He can be called a drummer. But music is played by musicians. I believe this mindset is why the drummer jokes exist to this day. Too many drummers think the drumming is more important than the music. It is not.

It's easy to see why so many drummers, especially young ones get so caught up in the drumming is everything idea. The shape of the kit is kind of a prison. There the drummer sits, surrounded by pieces, by walls that separate him or her from the other musicians. The other musicians walk to each other and talk while the drummers sits in his prison. They are usually standing while we sit.We're kind of alone. But as Bruford said many years ago now, "life exists on the other side of the cymbals". And he was right.

Those bagging Meg White for playing appropriately should stop and reconsider.

SCOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Originally Posted by intheruff

SCOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed.

Great post Wy.

[BassDriver]

Country music has very simple, groove-oriented drumming for the most part - and country is much more popular than jazz and metal put together - but I have never met anyone here who calls themself a "country drummer." We say we like groove and simplicity, but our other discussion say different.

What's up with that?

Most likely that those country drummers do session work in a range of other styles.

I could not imagine many drummers enjoying country.

...at the end of the day I guess it's up to our own musical tastes...

...I don't care if I anger other people's musical tastes but I hate country, and I hate most kinds of rock. What I prefer to listen to is progressive rock, progressive metal, metalcore, heavy metal, alternative metal, and the drumming required for these styles is atleast moderately complex but still musical and combined with everything else is why I like these styles, OK...(and sorreee if you think that metal isn't musical enough).

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

...I don't care if I anger other people's musical tastes but I hate country, and I hate most kinds of rock. What I prefer to listen to is progressive rock, progressive metal, metalcore, heavy metal, alternative metal, and the drumming required for these styles is atleast moderately complex but still musical and combined with everything else is why I like these styles, OK...(and sorreee if you think that metal isn't musical enough).

Not musical enough? I don't think about music that way. I just don't see the appeal of metal and at my age that's probably the point - young people breaking away from the restrictions of the last generation etc. It just feels like an assault to me, but that's probably the point too :)

I like RATM's Killing in the Name - but their rhythm section is simple and rocking and funky. I like some of King Crimson's nu-metal too but they are brilliant and also break it up with more ethereal stuff.

Once I hear the double kick dugga-dugga-dugga crowding out the bottom end I'm outta there (with just a few exceptions). Once there's Cookie Monster vocals, I'm running.

[BassDriver]

Once I hear the double kick dugga-dugga-dugga crowding out the bottom end I'm outta there (with just a few exceptions). Once there's Cookie Monster vocals, I'm running.

Jeez...I live for that sound (listen to some Tool, Daney Carey just puts it in at the right time to spice things up and give some surprise...it's not just runs all the time)

...and the metal I listen to doesn't use Cookie monster vocals, mostly is just harsh (occasionally very calmed or croakily growled) vocals, now black metal...that's Kreepy (with Das Kapital 'K").


"It ain't metal without that pedal"

[Late Bloomer]

I play the drums because I love the buzz of creating a good sound with quality musicians. My aim is to enhance their performance as much as posible by laying down the best solid groove I can. With saying that I will put in a few fills here and there without hurting the groove. I personally think without Jack's wonderful talents, the Stripes would be nothing. That band would sound better with a bit more imaginitive drumming. The thing that really annoys me about the modern music scene, is it is not how good the performers are, it is how they are promoted. ie the look.

[Pollyanna]

BD, Danny Carey might be a monster but I don't get any more pleasure from listening to Tool than The Stripes. And I think Tool are one of the best metal bands. To me flashy metal comes across as shield-like - something impregnable, all power and impressiveness ... but no vulnerability. There's little timbral variety and the sounds are almost always harsh, it's not melodic, it's not inviting to my ear.

LB, Jack disagrees with you. It's not just because Meg's his ex (as if that's an advantage). It's not just because she's a woman or because she looks pretty at certain angles. So why would he disagree?

Sure, there's a lot of image focus since record companies gained a stranglehold on the scene, but White Stipes's image is part of a creative package, not a commercial one. The extramusical has always been important in rock. When it's used to make a creative statement, I'll enjoy it if I relate to the ideas. When the images are cyical, then it's for musically naive people and I move on to my boring old fart music.

It's frustrating for sincere musicians trying their best to be good, but impressive chops are far less important in most genres than the statement being made - whether it touches people or not. In most genres, overt displays of technique are not important if you want to touch people. Having good Ideas and nous are IMO

If people want to be excited by a show of skill they'll go to a sporting event a circus or see a flashy band. If they want to be moved in some way they'll watch a movie or listen to more circumspect music.

[stabmasterarson]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

BD, Danny Carey might be a monster but I don't get any more pleasure from listening to Tool than The Stripes. And I think Tool are one of the best metal bands. To me flashy metal comes across as shield-like - something impregnable, all power and impressiveness ... but no vulnerability. There's little timbral variety and the sounds are almost always harsh, it's not melodic, it's not inviting to my ear.

LB, Jack disagrees with you. It's not just because Meg's his ex (as if that's an advantage). It's not just because she's a woman or because she looks pretty at certain angles. So why would he disagree?

Sure, there's a lot of image focus since record companies gained a stranglehold on the scene, but White Stipes's image is part of a creative package, not a commercial one. The extramusical has always been important in rock. When it's used to make a creative statement, I'll enjoy it if I relate to the ideas. When the images are cyical, then it's for musically naive people and I move on to my boring old fart music.

It's frustrating for sincere musicians trying their best to be good, but impressive chops are far less important in most genres than the statement being made - whether it touches people or not. In most genres, overt displays of technique are not important if you want to touch people. Having good Ideas and nous are IMO

If people want to be excited by a show of skill they'll go to a sporting event a circus or see a flashy band. If they want to be moved in some way they'll watch a movie or listen to more circumspect music.

funny

I know lots of different people who aren't snobby musicians who think that most modern rock is crap, including the white stripes, et al. They aren't even really music fans, then they go to a metal show with me and are enthused and interested in music again. I'm talking people in their 50s and 60s who previously only listened to Led Zeppelin.

The thing they say to me is they are impressed by the skill and the heaviness being displayed. I don't think it's accurate to say that in order for people to be "moved" by music it has to be rock stupid and mellow, with sensitive dynamics to be considered good. That sounds like you're interpretation on the subject. Me personally, I find that people are more open to different styles of music considering the absolute crap that is played on commercial radio nowadays. How many people have you heard pine for the old days when music meant something, it took skill to play, etc? I hear this all the time from people who can't even play spoons.

[Boomka]

The thing they say to me is they are impressed by the skill and the heaviness being displayed. I don't think it's accurate to say that in order for people to be "moved" by music it has to be rock stupid and mellow, with sensitive dynamics to be considered good.

Not to barge in, but I'm not sure anyone is making this argument. I think what IS being said is that mellow, dynamically sensitive drumming is not stupid in certain contexts. In fact it is more than just not "stupid" but appropriate, desirable and musical.

Heavy, loud, complex drumming also has its place and within certain contexts is appropriate, desirable and musical.

See, both statements can exist without the spacetime continuum imploding.

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by intheruff

SCOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha, thanks. You're one of about 5 to 10 people who bother to read my posts. Let alone respond.

Oh and Keep it simple, yes I am familiar with your posts. That one caught me off guard.

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by Boomka

Not to barge in, but I'm not sure anyone is making this argument. I think what IS being said is that mellow, dynamically sensitive drumming is not stupid in certain contexts. In fact it is more than just not "stupid" but appropriate, desirable and musical.

Heavy, loud, complex drumming also has its place and withing certain contexts is appropriate desirable and musical.

See, both statements can exist without the spacetime continuum imploding.

Bingo!... Bingo!............we have a winner folks............:}

If you remove the words CONTEXT and CONCEPT from each individual musical mix in question all bets are off.........

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by wy yung

Reading this thread, I get the impression that some misunderstand the basic idea behind simple and busy drumming. Some are quick to criticize a simple groove as if it's an affront to the possibilities of the drum set. Whether a groove is busy or simple is not the point. Below I will hopefully give the answer. It's not about the drumming it's about.........









MUSIC.



Yes, that is what it's all about. Perhaps there should be another thread entitled Appropriate drumming, because that's what it's about. Not busy, not easy, appropriate.

I am a drummer. I am also a percussionist who works with drummers. I hire drummers. Okay, let's get this again. I hire, i.e. pay drummers.

Right, now if a drummer comes in and plays inappropriately, I do not hire that drummer again. This means that if I am putting together a Rush cover band and the drummers comes in and plays Meg White parts, the drummer is being inappropriate. If on the other hand I want a guy to play James Brown covers and he plays busy fills every 4 or 8 bars, he is playing inappropriately and will not get the gig.

Bottom line; The music comes first. Any drummer who does not understand this concept is unworthy of being called a musician. He can be called a drummer. But music is played by musicians. I believe this mindset is why the drummer jokes exist to this day. Too many drummers think the drumming is more important than the music. It is not.

It's easy to see why so many drummers, especially young ones get so caught up in the drumming is everything idea. The shape of the kit is kind of a prison. There the drummer sits, surrounded by pieces, by walls that separate him or her from the other musicians. The other musicians walk to each other and talk while the drummers sits in his prison. They are usually standing while we sit.We're kind of alone. But as Bruford said many years ago now, "life exists on the other side of the cymbals". And he was right.

Those bagging Meg White for playing appropriately should stop and reconsider.

GREAT post too......................!!!

[RollingStone000]

People can say what they want about Meg White (personally I think she should incorporate a rudiment or two, and move her ride cymbal to what would look like a more comfortable position), but I've never heard her lose time (live or otherwise) even with Jack White's frantic guitar playing.