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  #41  
Old 08-21-2009, 11:24 AM
aydee aydee is offline
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

PS. Aydee, maybe if you make playing BJ sound as thought it's something subversive?? Hope he doesn't read this or the cover's blown ...
About as subversive as Phil Collins playing Mercy, Mercy with the BR big band...
Also, no worries Polly, who reads PSs anyway. : I
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  #42  
Old 08-21-2009, 12:31 PM
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Heya Gust, where'vyabin? Playing, I hope.

Its should be no surprise that pop music is intrinsically formula music which is born with a commercial or business objective in mind rather than a interesting musical idea.

To work off a lowest-common-denominator principle works best in these circumstances.
Something that will please everybody/Nobody will hate it. Minimize the chance of failure, eliminate risk, don't take any chances.. in other words do everything diametrically opposite to what 'music creation' itself believes in.

A middle of the road musical statement if you will. ( We all know what happens if walk in the middle of the road...you get run over )

Take someone that has commercial appeal/potential, broad-base it so that you can close as many loopholes as possible, make him/her likable/acceptable to as many people as possible, change their hairstyle and promote the heck out of them.
If you hit gold, you are the man, and if you tank.. dump em and move on to the next best thing.

Funnily enough though, sheer talent, thoughout the history of pop has often broken through these corporate confines of musical expression and shined through despite the 'ball & chains'.

As an aside, I was reading Sting's autobiography the other day and he quite clearly states that for him POLICE was a commercial vehicle that he choose to ride only to get him to a point where he could then play 'his music'.

I think you've got a real grown up head on your shoulders and musical tastes & talent to match so I'm not surprised you're gagging at a lot of whats out there.. ; )

Hang in there, Gust..


....
Havent been posting much lately, but have been playing :) ill send you an average quality digital camera video if you'd like. then a much better quality recording once i get a zoom H2, though that could be a while...

That's a bit disappointing about sting, though i havent listened to the police too much i like their hit songs.

not all pop is terrible. but there is some horrible stuff that i can't believe people like...

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I think you've got a real grown up head on your shoulders and musical tastes & talent to match so I'm not surprised you're gagging at a lot of whats out there.. ; )
Thanks man :)
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  #43  
Old 08-21-2009, 02:50 PM
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About as subversive as Phil Collins playing Mercy, Mercy with the BR big band...
Also, no worries Polly, who reads PSs anyway. : I
Aydee, SHHHHHH! He might notice!
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  #44  
Old 08-21-2009, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Most definitely. I felt guilty about not posting some Crimson originally, esp something like Lark's Tongues or Red. But I left that for you. :) I used the Chick for the name mostly. And what about Cream, Hendrix or Graham Bond? It goes way back, doesn't it?

I like the notion of pop music as music that is made specifically for commercial consideration. I get a kick out of a lot of it. But I try to make a distinction between music whose merit is exclusively commercial: Brittany or The Archies, and music that although it is commercially appealing, it has some artistic merit, something like Walking on the Moon. In that sense, pop music can rise to the occasion of a sense of artistic merit. I like Dream Theater, another good example. The music they do is a lot of fun; but very rarely actually has an acute sense of artistic merit. I would actually give it more cred. than a lot of folks that would say it's warmed over 70s rock and 80s metal. To me it may have some sense of artistic merit, but to someone else it is just pop.

The important thing to me about contemporary notion is the idea that popular music can rise to art and can be historically pertinent. I brought up Bartok, (and that didn't bring The Colonel in) Look at the number of artist influenced by Bartok: Zappa, Keith Emerson, Jason Moran, and Lutoslawski, a pretty far range. And he didn't get the lauds that Stravinsky got, or Schoenberg among academics. He was probably the composer influenced by folk music who brought it to the most artistic level.

Again the problem when discussing pop music in regards to quality is you have to get passed a lot of superfluous notions of importance to whom, and when. Issues of class, gender, race etc. play a big part in that authentication of taste. And you get into that with a discussion of any musical genre, oh that term.

What is a true artistic expression? Is "She Loves You" not art but "The Long and Winding Road" is? Is "The Black Page" not pop, but My Guitar's Gonna Kill Your Mama, is? What about something like Prokofiev's Lt. Kije Suite, often quoted by popular songwriters? Does quoting Prokofiev make a pop song 'not pop'? Maybe the point of am trying to make is that something can be superfluous and still have charm, and maybe even artistic merit. A lot of the stuff my students bring in is actually quite nice pop: Disturbed, Avenged Sevenfold, Seether. I would be listening to that stuff if I were 15. So this notion that somehow good popular music died with Hendrix and Janis is just nonsense. I mean I am a music historian, and if I could get passed that notion, I think anyone can. and it is a notion that is very bad for music.
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  #45  
Old 08-21-2009, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

So i just thought of something that i feel is very relavent to this discussion...
I am a web designer/developer... i started as an artist and decided to persue commercial art as my occupation. The fields of music and art are inter-related as they are both forms of art, so is dance and theater etc. So i guess the thing is, do you consider commercial art the same way you consider pop-music? I mean do you criticize commercial photographers, graphic designers, movie/tv actors and web designers and say they aren't true artists because they chose to be successful at their jobs? I mean i could be a flat-broke fine-artist or i could be a moderately succesful commercial artist... yes i have to sell-out some sense of artistic integrity but at the end of the day i know i did my job and made money doing it.
In an ideal world people wouldn't have to sell-out artistic integrity due to monetary concerns but this in the real world you often have to do that.
Its like someone said before, money is what makes the world go round... people have bills to pay, mortgages, education and tons of other needs that being "artistic" just won't cover.

Now all that being said, i will also reiterate my earlier point... i feel like 90% of music (and art) is complete crap and there will be a few gems of truly good stuff in all genres. If you use the amount of crap found in any genre as a metric you'll pretty quickly be able to say that all genres are bad. I don't think that we can say that pop is bad because there is a lot of crap in it... if you look back historically at music you'll see the same thing in all genres across all times... the difference is that pop-music is on the radio now so we hear all of the crap along with the good stuff, and the classics stations have already weeded out a lot of the garbage.
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  #46  
Old 08-21-2009, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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I'm sure if you asked nicely The Colonel could come up with something that might be classified as microtonal concrète pop/jazz experimental music ...



Britt, apology accepted. Just don't do it again :)



Don't do it, Ferret! It sounds painful! Dying a fiery death and burning forever in the bowels of Hell probably wouldn't tickle either ...

Actually, I like some pop music a lot - or should I say the genre formerly known as pop? :) Now Ferret, before you think "bah humbug!" about me, remember you're talking to someone who owned 14 King Crimson albums in the 70s and now has 150 King Crimson MP3s on her hard drive.

Some commercial music is boring to me, but someone has to make music that speaks to teenyboppers and adrenaline-charged teenage boys. The kids no doubt find a lot of my music boring too. Fair enough, since music is made by people so it attracts and repels us just as we variously attract and repel others.

The main beef about pop seems to be the idea of commercially-minded cynics bastardising music for profit - barstardising that which we consider sacred. I suspect that's where you're coming from. But superficial music wouldn't be created if the demand wasn't there, if the big record companies couldn't find a way of tapping into humaity's lowest common denominator in order to make a buck.

But hey, they're businesses, and businesses are about making bucks - paying for mortgages, early retirements, private school education for the kids, overseas trips etc.

My beef's a bit different to yours - pop production. My irritation isn't aimed at the musos but the record companies. They have conditioned people's ears to expect mega production for music that doesn't warrant it (ie. not Sgt Pepper or Dark Side of the Moon). It puts bands deeply into debt (ie. under the company's control) and they polish up simple pop that should take 2 weeks to record. This, in turn, squeezes out indie bands who can't compete production-wise. Sometimes they still break through, most mostly they have to settle for niche markets to make a living. Or get a day job.

My other beef is how changes to licensing laws in my state have allowed our bars to be infested with lines of poker machines - bars that used to have live music. The poker machines pay better and the bar owners don't have to deal with rock'n'roll crowds, who tend to make a mess. Sydney's live scene is much the poorer for this, as compared with the glory days of live bands in this city during the 70s.

Edit: I posted at the same time as Aydee. It seems we're saying some similar things.

I see it the same way as I do prostitution really. They take something incredibly intimate, personal, and emotional, and sell it as just another manufactured product with all the handmade quality of an assembly line robotic arm.

I am a younger player, (age 20, 6 years) so I am still filled up with all my dramatic convictions. I have been doing well in the local scene but I really hope I never get paid for my solo stuff, I really hope I never have a fan base with a financial vice grip on my creativity. I don't do this to appease, and artists with that attitude fall out of public interest very easily by the look of it.

The depressing bit to me is I know that peoples taste in music isn't anywhere as poor as the grammies would indicate. After 20+ years of hard work dream theater just last month finally got the record sales they have deserved all along. It just irritates me that producers get fat and happy doing what they know will work, while it takes real musicians decades just to get what they deserve.
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  #47  
Old 08-21-2009, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Originally Posted by thelimpingtoad View Post
So i just thought of something that i feel is very relavent to this discussion...
I am a web designer/developer... i started as an artist and decided to persue commercial art as my occupation. The fields of music and art are inter-related as they are both forms of art, so is dance and theater etc. So i guess the thing is, do you consider commercial art the same way you consider pop-music? I mean do you criticize commercial photographers, graphic designers, movie/tv actors and web designers and say they aren't true artists because they chose to be successful at their jobs? I mean i could be a flat-broke fine-artist or i could be a moderately succesful commercial artist... yes i have to sell-out some sense of artistic integrity but at the end of the day i know i did my job and made money doing it.
In an ideal world people wouldn't have to sell-out artistic integrity due to monetary concerns but this in the real world you often have to do that.
Its like someone said before, money is what makes the world go round... people have bills to pay, mortgages, education and tons of other needs that being "artistic" just won't cover.

Now all that being said, i will also reiterate my earlier point... i feel like 90% of music (and art) is complete crap and there will be a few gems of truly good stuff in all genres. If you use the amount of crap found in any genre as a metric you'll pretty quickly be able to say that all genres are bad. I don't think that we can say that pop is bad because there is a lot of crap in it... if you look back historically at music you'll see the same thing in all genres across all times... the difference is that pop-music is on the radio now so we hear all of the crap along with the good stuff, and the classics stations have already weeded out a lot of the garbage.
If you painted something that you felt like wasn't your best work or far from your best work and yet there was a market for it all of a sudden then yes I bet you would sell out and mass produce this "less than me" art, collect the money, and smile all the way to the bank. Such is todays music. High school bands or talent shows with more talent than half of the garbage for sale in todays market, but if your hair is long enough, you have enough tattoos, and play loud enough or fast enough the youth of today will buy the crap. I couldn't count the number of people who come on here asking, How does my band sound?, and they start out nice and then all hell breaks loose. You can't understand any lyrics even if you can hear the singer and it gets louder and faster as it goes. The drummers have no rhythm, they aren't playing with the band, and they think it's music. Just too much of it. And now they can record their own CD's and act as if they are recording artists without a clue as to how much work actually goes into a professional recording. Just makes me want to scream.
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  #48  
Old 08-21-2009, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Originally Posted by thelimpingtoad View Post
So i just thought of something that i feel is very relavent to this discussion...
I am a web designer/developer... i started as an artist and decided to persue commercial art as my occupation. The fields of music and art are inter-related as they are both forms of art, so is dance and theater etc. So i guess the thing is, do you consider commercial art the same way you consider pop-music? I mean do you criticize commercial photographers, graphic designers, movie/tv actors and web designers and say they aren't true artists because they chose to be successful at their jobs? I mean i could be a flat-broke fine-artist or i could be a moderately succesful commercial artist... yes i have to sell-out some sense of artistic integrity but at the end of the day i know i did my job and made money doing it.
In an ideal world people wouldn't have to sell-out artistic integrity due to monetary concerns but this in the real world you often have to do that.
Its like someone said before, money is what makes the world go round... people have bills to pay, mortgages, education and tons of other needs that being "artistic" just won't cover.

Now all that being said, i will also reiterate my earlier point... i feel like 90% of music (and art) is complete crap and there will be a few gems of truly good stuff in all genres. If you use the amount of crap found in any genre as a metric you'll pretty quickly be able to say that all genres are bad. I don't think that we can say that pop is bad because there is a lot of crap in it... if you look back historically at music you'll see the same thing in all genres across all times... the difference is that pop-music is on the radio now so we hear all of the crap along with the good stuff, and the classics stations have already weeded out a lot of the garbage.
Well actually I have chosen to side step this issue completely.

I work 40 hours a week, and then I play with 3 "twice a week" bands and jam with half a dozen misc projects. I am happy that I can do exactly as I want and survive off of it, and I am happy to have the respect of the older guys who have been around for decades, but when I compare paychecks with the high school eye candy drummers... there's no hesitation "Yeah, I work harder than him."

It's not like they're closet talents, and choose to play down, its honestly the material they had from day one and some producer scooped it up with a plastic dog-poop bag. I get offended by this, it's not even a simple pleasure kind of sound, it's just bad.
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  #49  
Old 08-22-2009, 03:34 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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If you painted something that you felt like wasn't your best work or far from your best work and yet there was a market for it all of a sudden then yes I bet you would sell out and mass produce this "less than me" art, collect the money, and smile all the way to the bank. Such is todays music. High school bands or talent shows with more talent than half of the garbage for sale in todays market, but if your hair is long enough, you have enough tattoos, and play loud enough or fast enough the youth of today will buy the crap. I couldn't count the number of people who come on here asking, How does my band sound?, and they start out nice and then all hell breaks loose. You can't understand any lyrics even if you can hear the singer and it gets louder and faster as it goes. The drummers have no rhythm, they aren't playing with the band, and they think it's music. Just too much of it. And now they can record their own CD's and act as if they are recording artists without a clue as to how much work actually goes into a professional recording. Just makes me want to scream.
We have some interesting stuff going on here. Before getting to that, GD, "crap" has always been with us. Remember bubblegum in the 60s? There's not a whole lot that's as crass as Sugar Sugar and Yummy Yummy Yummy I have Love in my Tummy - lol. BTW, long hair stopped being interesting a, um, ... few years ago. And hey, I have long hair!

There is the same trend going on in music as there is in movies, and sport for that matter - once someone is the loudest and fastest then someone else has to try to be louder and faster still. And there's always new generation who thinks the loudest and fastest of the day is the benchmark and tried to go further again, and all the old loud and fast guys are booooring.

LimpingToad hit the button. Visual art vs music. Music seems so much more conservative than art, which was coming up with wild stuff in the mainstream at a time when Benny Goodman was considered radical. Not a lot of music as "out there" and arty as Picasso or Van Gogh being is as popular with the general public as Pablo and co were/are.

So we're probably more conservative with music than with art. We're also more tolerant of commercialism in art; few people see art in those terms. Maybe because commercial art is mostly a marketing tool which is maybe equivalent of musical backing for a TV ad? I've worked in web and graphic design too and I know commercial artists who would love to have more time to get things how they want it, but the time pressures force you to compromise. Maybe like pop stars are required to keep churning out the hits?

Unlike commercial art, commercial music exists more often as just itself - with little utility value other than serving as a backdrop for dancing and/or socialising, maybe the equivalent of those terrible mass-produced landscapes you see that are produced by painters who churn out one after another. But people are less likely to actively HATE it, and are more likely to just ignore it.

But Ferret... who's to say playing commercial music just for the $$ is more "prostitution" than, say, working in an office or in sales, where we almost completely subsume our innate creativity to commercial ends? After all, people have bills to pay, kids to feed etc. I expect that plenty of musos would rather play sub-optimal commercial music than work in an office and play music on the side.

This brings us to Ken's thoughts about how some commercial music includes stuff with artistic merit, his example being Walking on the Moon with its tasty atmospheric parts and Stewie's fantastic sticking. It's fair to wonder when hearing some commercial music, "How can these guys resist slipping ANY cool stuff in their songs?". Just something ... ANYTHING!! The answer is probably, "Because they can't". But it does keep them out of the office :)

Music is a bit more personal and speaks more clearly to our souls (or whatever) than art does and that's maybe why people seem less tolerant of music they don't like. Maybe that's why there's talk of "musical prostitution"? There's maybe a bit more "sacredness" about music, sacred like relationships. Our ears are more primal sensory organs than our eyes so maybe it speaks to something deeper within us?

So if someone wants to use music to make a living and avoid 9 to 5 work, without treating it as something special, part of me wants to say "Good luck to them". Another part of me is offended because at least working in an office doesn't despoil something that's supposed to be beautiful or exciting or poignant or even transcendent.

Personally, I really like the idea of creating music with broad appeal but retaining some artistic merit. Most times you want to pick up gigs to enjoy the full musical experience and that means being discipline and compromise, but at the same time you want to really enjoy what you're doing. I suspect that's the space many forum members are at. Others might be hoping that their unfettered expression will strike a chord with the public so they don't have to be wage slaves, tho' that's a bit like buying a lottery ticket.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 08-22-2009 at 04:44 AM.
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  #50  
Old 08-22-2009, 04:01 AM
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I lost all interest in popular culture a long time ago. Lowest common denominator and all that. It's just not interesting. It's crass, base and, well, ignoble. To me pop music is the Fox news of music.
Look around you. Pop culture is everywhere, it's pretty much all there is. America is all about pop culture. I just spent two weeks in New York and it isn't any different there.
But since that's the way it is you're left with the choice of what to do with yourself in this tacky culture of ours. You just have to make your peace with the reality that in order to keep from starving you will definitely play drums on some really crappy music, you will and don't kid yourself. The strange thing is that in order to do that you have to be a really good drummer because there are tons of drummers who want those kinds of gigs.
As to all these bands and entertainers, I don't know anything about them, nor do I care, any more than I care about American Idol or professional wrestling.
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:43 AM
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...

It is all around us, not just in music. Its this monster that tells you what to wear, what to eat and how to look and ends up with what to listen to.

And when commercial and media interests align themselves to this all powerful juggernaut, there's no stopping it and it permeates pretty much the whole world.

The 'In- Things', Reality TV, processed food, the Hollywood blockbusters served up like pancakes every summer, fitting into size 0 Ed Hardys and other such trivial pursuits is what sadly defines millions of innocents aspiring for a sense of identity and self worth.

Thankfully, the news isn't all bad because on either side of this flood, there have always been gutters that run rich with the nutrients of our creativity, morality, our conscience that fulfill and satiate our basic desire and innate need for what is special and beautiful in this world.

...
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:49 AM
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when commercial and media interests align themselves to this all powerful juggernaut, there's no stopping it and it permeates pretty much the whole world.

... Thankfully, the news isn't all bad because on either side of this flood, there have always been gutters that run rich with the nutrients of our creativity, morality, our conscience that fulfill and satiate our basic desire and innate need for what is special and beautiful in this world.
Yes. There will always be people playing independent music for the love of it. And it's not uncommon for "gutter musicians" to slip their influence into the mainstream.

Ironic that musical compost can be used to help grow [expletive] :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:49 AM
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We have some interesting stuff going on here. Before getting that that, GD, "crap" has always been with us. Remember bubblegum in the 60s? There's an argument that today at least we haven't descended to the level of Sugar Sugar and Yummy Yummy Yummy I have Love in my Tummy - lol. BTW, long hair stopped being interesting a, um, ... few years ago. And hey, I have long hair!.


What about something like Ticket to Ride. If you had only heard The Beatles version you would say it is a pop song. But what about Vanilla Fudge's version or their version of "You Keep Me Hangin' On." I think the problem is that genre is largely interpretation and interpretation is largely marketing or audience in the popular music world. The question that would need to be answered is which one is art? The Vanilla Fudge version is one of the earliest examples of progressive rock elements and had a major influence so that much qualify it as having some artistic merit. But let me add that I am not prepared to say that Motown has no artistic merit. That seems to me to be nonsense.

Is the song "You Keep Me Hangin' On" any more 'sophisticated' than "Sugar Sugar." I would say perhaps, but barely and they both have the same social function, to sell records. Now one could do a social reading into it Motown and say this is at the height of the Civil Rights Movement and say there is a social element to the music that is reflective of the times. But I don't think that many would argue that The Supremes being a were not a pop band, and that song being pop.Neither one is nearly as sophisticated as what Miles Davis or Stan Getz were doing at the same time. People always ask the question, if pop is devalued in the face of something like King Crimson, why should King Crimson have value in the face of Steve Reich?

Every era has it's bubble gum. Sugar Sugar was actually the number one song of 1969, and stood four weeks at number one at the height of the after math of Woodstock. It is actually a well written song. It was probably written for kids. It is kids music. You'd have to ask who was buying those records, and I would say it was tweens. The cultural problem is when people who are forty are still listening to that type of music. Whose listening to Hannah Montana? If it's my ten year old drum student, who loves Hannah, that's one thing. If it's somebody in their twenties maybe she needs to grow up a bit. We have a joke. Ten year old boys like Hannah, and fifteen year old boys like Hannah; but for a very different reason. And the other question to answer is why is bubble gum so bad and Motley Crue so good? And then there was The Backstreet Boys and N'Sync. You could sit around all day only listening to the most sophisticated music.

Jazz is losing its audience today, and classical music has been in decline for a decade now. People ask the question how do you save jazz, how do you save classical music? A lot of people's paychecks depend on it. A lot of musician's paychecks depend on the status quo. And people ask the question how do you market jazz to a new, perhaps younger audience. I think that as people are expressing the problem here, it is not one of marketing. Marketing is the problem. If you hear The Coltrane Quartet recording of Alabama, and it's meaningless to you, there is a bigger problem. You got no soul.
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:52 AM
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I guess props to the Monkees for refusing Sugar Sugar, so their producer invented another band The Archies and had them do it.
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:59 AM
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And it's not uncommon for "gutter musicians" to slip their influence into the mainstream.
Oh yes. Though many drowned trying, some have "surfed the big pipeline" and used the system successfully to put something of lasting value out there.
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:08 AM
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Just a quick thought before I go and pretend that I have a life for a while:

It isn't black-and-white. There's some great pop songs out there and also some "creative" underground music that's little more than obscure noodling fit for neither man nor beast (nor woman or female animals).

Like brilliance, crap comes in various flavours ...
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I guess props to the Monkees for refusing Sugar Sugar, so their producer invented another band The Archies and had them do it.
If writing a song like that is so trite and so easy, write me one and then we'll talk. :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:44 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

the Monkees were trying to expand their work and wanted more control over their music and Sugar Sugar was the last straw as far as creativity was concerned so they refused to sing it.
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:50 AM
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If you hear The Coltrane Quartet recording of Alabama, and it's meaningless to you, there is a bigger problem. You got no soul.
Oh, I so very much disagree with that. It seems that you're just trying to show how hip you are with a statement like that, no offense. Why is it a problem if someone doesn't like John Coltrane, if they find his music meaningless? I find many things meaningless that the vast majority of people place great importance on and I don't think I have a problem.
"Got no soul?" Nah. They just don't like it, that's all. It's not a problem that people like what they like unless you make it one. Just don't go there, don't eat at Chili's or Burger King, don't watch reality TV, don't buy Lady Gaga records, don't look at MTV and don't buy your clothes at Old Navy or the Gap. Easy. Maintaining high standards in your life is just as easy if it matters enough. But the first thing to do is not give a damn about what the "hoi polloi" are doing. Which is hard to do when you're in traffic with them.
The point is to make your own life what you want it to be, to only let into your life what you want there. None of my friends, my non-musician friends, really give a damn about music one way or the other, and that even goes for some of the musicians I know, but I don't have any problem with that and I very much doubt that John Coltrane did either.
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:14 AM
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Oh, I so very much disagree with that. It seems that you're just trying to show how hip you are with a statement like that, no offense. Why is it a problem if someone doesn't like John Coltrane, if they find his music meaningless? I find many things meaningless that the vast majority of people place great importance on and I don't think I have a problem.
"Got no soul?" Nah. They just don't like it, that's all. It's not a problem that people like what they like unless you make it one. Just don't go there, don't eat at Chili's or Burger King, don't watch reality TV, don't buy Lady Gaga records, don't look at MTV and don't buy your clothes at Old Navy or the Gap. Easy. Maintaining high standards in your life is just as easy if it matters enough. But the first thing to do is not give a damn about what the "hoi polloi" are doing. Which is hard to do when you're in traffic with them.
The point is to make your own life what you want it to be, to only let into your life what you want there. None of my friends, my non-musician friends, really give a damn about music one way or the other, and that even goes for some of the musicians I know, but I don't have any problem with that and I very much doubt that John Coltrane did either.

Are you kidding me with this? Just wanting to be hip? There's nothing 'hip' about liking a 50 year old jazz recording by one of the great jazz ensembles. Maybe it was hip in '64. I don't know why I should justify this with a response.
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Old 08-22-2009, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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The point is to make your own life what you want it to be, to only let into your life what you want there. .
Thats the gist of it. Easier said than done, though... not to succumb to peer pressure and have a sense of who you are and what you like. Not many have the self assurance to do that, imo.. : )

I remember a time when I was 15 and and went around singing praises of Hendrix to all the cool cats around me, while privately I just didn't 'get it'. It was all distorted noisy feedback.

Of course the Hendrix eureka moment did arrive a few years later but even within our little musician world I've felt the pressure to like what everyone else likes..

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Old 08-22-2009, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

This is an interesting thread. I see it from different points.

For the musician there is always a need to pay the bills. Many I know will play 'commercial' gigs to pay the bills and use that money to pay for their real passion. Similar to Ferret working to pay the bills then indulging in his passion. A lot of 'pop' bands also play/write different music away from their day job.

For most of the public 'popular music' is background music. Something simple to sing or hum along to whilst washing up or driving. I have no real dislike of popular music. For me anything that gets people discussing the merits of music is a good thing.

My Son's first band crush was 'Right Said Fred' and then to cap it off 'The Spice girls'. I didn't condemn his choice though because it was an interest in music, of whatever flavour, and that interest has grown into an appreciation of lots of different types of music. I started off with an odd mix of chart, rock and brass band music!!

I don't like Jazz. Never have understood it and never liked it but I won't condemn it because it gives people an interest in music and you never know one day I might get that revelation and learn how to appreciate it. So for me this thread is proof that pop music is a necessity in getting people interested in music whatever it's condition or quality. What we should be talking about is how to get people more interested and involved in music rather than musicians bashing away at each other to prove musical superiority.
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Old 08-22-2009, 11:08 AM
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This is going back a few posts, to the 'Visual Art' analogy and particularly Pollyanna's interpretation of it.

Visual art is - to some degree - less conservative. At least in the mainstream that we can see. You also have to remember that visual art (particularly static visual art) is controlled by a very, very small selection of elite collectors and artists who can change their minds in an instant as to what is the 'in thing'. Music is a small business at the top, but they have to satisfy shareholders, whereas artists do not. Exposure in music relies on a network of distribution, art does not. It is far more flexible.
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:54 PM
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Ok, living is over for now. Back to the PC :)

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...genre is largely interpretation and interpretation is largely marketing or audience in the popular music world. The question that would need to be answered is which one is art?
Hmm, Yes and no. Also in the execution. Put a a ballsy (or overies-y) drummer and guitarist with an amp turned up to 11 together and you have rock. Execution and attitude. Or songs can also be jazzified, countrified etc. In the band before my current one we played The Stranglers's version of Walk On By. With the current band it's more like Dionne's, but we kept a few elements of The Stranglers in the chorus, arrangement and soloing. "Genre messing" is one of the joys of life IMO :)


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Is the song "You Keep Me Hangin' On" any more 'sophisticated' than "Sugar Sugar." I would say perhaps, but barely and they both have the same social function, to sell records.
No way! Sugar Sugar is purely lovey dovey, YKMHO's lyrics are simple but convey powerful emotions. Which song would be better fit into The Wiggles's set list? As you say, SS is kids' music. Not everyone can teach PhD level astrophysics and someone has to supervise the finger painting at the kindergarten. Someone has to play music for the little ones. Not what I want to play, but good luck to those who do. I think bubblegum pop absolutely suuucks (or chews) but, as you've suggested, it still has value.


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Jazz is losing its audience today, and classical music has been in decline for a decade now. People ask the question how do you save jazz, how do you save classical music? A lot of people's paychecks depend on it. A lot of musician's paychecks depend on the status quo. And people ask the question how do you market jazz to a new, perhaps younger audience. I think that as people are expressing the problem here, it is not one of marketing. Marketing is the problem. If you hear The Coltrane Quartet recording of Alabama, and it's meaningless to you, there is a bigger problem. You got no soul.
Is it *just" marketing? I know I'm *supposed* to like 'Trane because he gets so many raves but most of his music bores me. I'm not keen on bop. My big sister had a long relationship with a leading sax player/multi-instrumentalist. I went to jazz clubs hundreds of times. I *wanted* to like the music and went through a peer-influenced Aydee-esque phase where I thought non-jazz music was too unsophisticated to bother with (even tho I couldn't play it - lol).

But ... I've always been a closet pop fan - The Beatles, Madonna, early Elton, The B52s, The Bangles, Bryan Ferry, George Michael, old disco - all that uncool music. I'm a sucker for a good tune and a good feel. I didn't admit it at the time for fear of being thought of as just a ditzy girly-girl by my muso friends but I was absolutely NUTS for the riff/beat combo in The Knack's My Sharona.

Just because something is an acquired taste doesn't mean everyone will like it if only they get to know it. Just ask Con struct :) Horses for courses. A lot of jazz doesn't speak to me. My soul may not be too flash, but most of the moving parts still work.

Alabama would try the patience of most people. Great if you close your eyes late at night and drift into it, like classical, like Dark Side of the Moon or Eno or a whole bunch of moody things. Not much good for the unwashed otherwise, who often use music as a backdrop for their social lives and rarely if ever turn off the lights, turn up the volume and sail away on sound.

Why does Trane really move you but not others? Why do we like some people more than others? Similar questions.

Uncool non-muso types (hoik! ptui!) dig pop and rock'n'roll. They love a good tune, a contagious beat, words that describe something they've felt. Music that speaks to their generation or scene. Jazz has developed over the years to a point where subtleties that are only picked up by connoisseurs are considered to be of paramount importance. Forests and trees, ivory towers, rareified realms and all that. Just as intellectuals in the art world could never turn the public on to Jackson Pollock and his ilk, hard bop is a minority taste. Hell, so is all bop for that matter.

Why can't at least some jazzers compromise without giving us Kenny G wallpaper? Why not simplify and make the song structures more clear? Get more into composition. Melody. Rhythms that make you want to move. Hardly anyone gives a rat's posterior if a drummer plays polyrhythms (Polly Rhythms!) ... they just want it to sound cool. Is it a buzz? Is it beautiful? Does it "speak"?

Music doesn't have to be trite to reach a mass audience. Birdland did well and can be appreciated on a basic visceral level but if you want to dig deeper there's lots of nuances to enjoy. Kinda like The Simpsons :) Joe and co didn't play Birdland by rote; they improvised within a structure rather than tossing off the common jazz club fare:

1. theme
2. sax solo
3. piano solo
4. bass solo
5. drum solo
6. theme
7. Outtro

Unless it's VERY cleverly done, that just bores most people [expletive]less. Nice over dinner, tho ... as long as it doesn't get too intense.

For now, it looks to me that jazz, along with indie, world, prog, experimental, metal etc is just more of the sincere stuff running down the musical gutters (re: Aydee's and my chat earlier), occasionally being used as "compost" to fertilise the pop scene through samples, funk, and sessioners slipping some nuances into MOR tunes.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:43 PM
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I think your first point is the thing that really pisses me off about music today. I was listening to this interview with Lez Zeppelin, and they said the treat The Led like it were a canonic work, like Beethoven. The reason why bands like The Zep and The Stones, ELP, Crimson were so good was because they could take, 'steal,' music but do something unique and interesting with it. Jazz was is fundamentally genre messing, and when you go back to Bach, Mozart and the Beethoven, they were doing the same thing.

It can be silly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d7-2wooB9g

I think that you are right that it is the lyrical content of the Motown tune that separates it from bubble gumminess. Its 1967. Any song with 'Free' or 'Freedom' is making a statement whether it wants to or not. What if SS, was, "Freedom, oh, sweet sweet Freedom, here comes a bright new sun, and it leaves me wanting more." :) A song I always liked from that era was Build me up Buttercup.(You can't write a song like Eight Miles High and say you were innocent enough to think no one would take it as a drug reference.)

I think that the other important facet is that popular music is about the songs, and the lyric is on par, and often more important than what is happening musically, "Blowing in the Wind." And the visual can be as important as in musical theater, dance or musical film. That may be unnerving for musicians. If you can making living doing what you like like Bruford, Dejohnette or Billy Cobham, and make a living from it, my hat goes off to you. But I know quite a few jazz drummers who have taken gigs doing R and B and hip-hop. One of my favorite jazz drummers did hip hop a tour with this guy I worked with years ago.

You and I both have a pop sensibility. I love that live version of Down Let the Sun Go Down on Me, where the crowd goes wild when George Michael introduces Elton. GM has a great voice for pop It's going to leave me wanting more after a song or two. But we can also recognize a sense of musical accomplishment.

The reason why I mentioned "Alabama" specifically is because this is a piece that transcends music. It certainly transcends aesthetics. It was written after a racially motivated church bombing in Alabama left four young girls dead. The tune is more than music: moving, haunting, edgy and transcendental. The ability that the Coltrane Quartet had to just sit on that edge is breath taking and in this piece, it is fully realized. Knowing the narrative and listening to the piece, would one say that they are not moved by it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbaMCOXM1fA
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:13 AM
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Haha - love the link! Well, for about 45 seconds :)

One of my faves was Pat Boone's version fo Smoke On The Water. I like it more than the original. It's both a crackup and classy.

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What if SS, was, "Freedom, oh, sweet sweet Freedom, here comes a bright new sun, and it leaves me wanting more." :)
ROFL! Bullseye!

Yeah, we've touched on this on the forum a few times, the extramusical playing a major role in the music. When I was young I had a real hoik! ptui! attitude towards the extramusical. We thought that extramusical elements were BS that masked a lack of talent. These days I think that, unless the music is OUTSTANDING (and I don't use that term lightly), then music needs extramusical elements to be of high value (not necessarly $$).

After all, music stemmed from the extramusical right from the first vocalisations and clap sticks. It meant somthing, represented something, said something. Performances weren't so much this artificial thing we've developed where the musicians perform as artists or stars in front of a rapt audience. There was no separate "band" and "audience", just the whole tribe hving a pow-wow. The musos just had a certain role in the gig, along with the chief, shaman, dancers, people clapping along etc. If anything, some pop and rock bands come closest to that rootsy dynamic, often those playing small gigs and parties. It's not just about the music but everyone getting together to enjoy an uplifting experience.

The least interesting types of extramusical elements are sex and love. Common as muck, unless they are outstanding. Dance/disco/funk is also common - "get ya body movin' yeah". Comedy is a good one (I like comedy) and it frees up bands to get into a bit of genre bending a la Uncle Frank, early Tubes and Weird Al.

Then you have scenes that express group attitudes - the rebellion against prudishness of old RnR (and jazz, going back further), the ghetto expression of rap, the nihilism of punk, the anti-establishment of metal, the left wing politics and anti-hierarchy attitude of experimental music, blues's down-to-earth reconciliation with life's pain etc.

Singers usually understand this more than other band members because they're the ones who are have to present the words in a way that suggests that they agree with the lyric's worldview. I mean, no matter how great the music is, not too many singers will sing a song that promotes bestiality ... "Hey baby, I love your snout. I bet you like to get about. I love it when you swing your tail. Don't care if you're a girl or male" :)

So if singers are feeling or acting out the ideas in the lyrics, then image and stage presentation matters. You might not want to sing a plaintive version of Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood while wearing Daevid Allen's umbrella hat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFZ1N22I_QU) but that outfit is fine for playing Radio Gnome Invisible.

But Alabama ... I'd not heard of it until you mentioned it. If the YouTube link didn't tell the story there is NO WAY I would have worked out the meaning from the music. I would have just thought of it as having some beautiful ethereal passages along with some fairly dull jazz noodling in the middle. No doubt the meaning would have been clearer at the time, but the song is abstract expressionism, which will always go over the heads of a lot of people.

Some think that art shouldn't need explanations to be clear, but I think that's too precious. Nothing wrong with providing explanations. The explanation becomes part of the art and allows it to be appreciated on another level. I guess that's marketing. And marketing - explanations - plays a much bigger role in art than we often care to admit, or we rail against it. But in a sense that's genre messing too, just on a broader scale.

So I don't care much for the connoisseur attitude of "pure music" being superior to other forms. As far as I'm concerned it's more a matter of "whatever it takes" to say what you want to say, just as long as it's not fraud like miming when people expect live music. Some musics are deeper than others, but depth rarely pays the rent. Probably because life itself is only occasionally deep, if at all - lol

As for jazz players in R&B bands, maybe they like playing jazz best but I expect they still love playing those gigs. It's hard to play music you don't like and perform with enough conviction to please other band members and fans. How about a monster R&B player like Jim Keltner who, like Bill and Billy etc, is also playing exactly what he wants to play? I suspect that many much-derided pop musos who are accused of playing crap for money are playing exactly what they love too.

The best situation is if good musos enjoy a wide range of styles like you do. Then the world is your oyster :) If I was a really good drummer I'd have that luxury too so I only get a taste and have to make my bucks producing management reports.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:23 AM
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Pop music = Pretty Oustandingly Pathetic.

Its a producer's dream and a musician's nightmare. Imagine how much Picassos, Rembrandts, and Van Goghs would be worth if some art producer controlled the final product.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:37 AM
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Pop music = Pretty Oustandingly Pathetic.

Its a producer's dream and a musician's nightmare. Imagine how much Picassos, Rembrandts, and Van Goghs would be worth if some art producer controlled the final product.
You mean like producers controlled Herbie Hancock and Captain Beefheart and Pere Ubu and Soft Machine Led Zep and ... ? You get my point. Apples and oranges, Doctor. Svengali type pop producers work with aspiring pop stars not great artists, who are rarely controlled and, if so, not for long.

Pop in the art world can be great. Gary Larson ain't no Picasso but he's one of my favourite people ever!

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Old 08-23-2009, 08:22 AM
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Haha - love the link! Well, for about 45 seconds :)
I'm with you there.lol



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Some think that art shouldn't need explanations to be clear, but I think that's too precious. Nothing wrong with providing explanations. The explanation becomes part of the art and allows it to be appreciated on another level. I guess that's marketing. And marketing - explanations - plays a much bigger role in art than we often care to admit, or we rail against it. But in a sense that's genre messing too, just on a broader scale.

So I don't care much for the connoisseur attitude of "pure music" being superior to other forms. As far as I'm concerned it's more a matter of "whatever it takes" to say what you want to say, just as long as it's not fraud like miming when people expect live music. Some musics are deeper than others, but depth rarely pays the rent. Probably because life itself is only occasionally deep, if at all - lol
.
The music is rarely pure. That's the problem:)

Historically, music was largely vocal so there was always a text. People knew what the music was about. The text that was paramount; the music served its needs. As music became more instrumental the Romantics created a programmatic context for it. Music was representational and had a story to explain it. Debussy questioned if music was really representational and Stravinsky came along and said "music doesn't represent anything but music." The twentieth century was defined. But he himself later admitted that in retrospect he was wrong about that.

The notion that music needs no explanation is going out of favor. And in today's post-modern world the notion that anything comes to us narrative-free is questioned. C-F-G has significant historical meaning, and as 'absolute' and pure as one may want to believe it is, it just ain't so. The definition of the chords and scales is a long historical narrative. It took a millennium to get to bubble gum. :) People used to argue that the narrative was to get us to C-F-G; but now we see that was only one stop on the narrative.

On the other hand you have a piece like Appalachian Spring, which evokes the gentle breezes and blossoming of spring in the mountain, it's cool, it's breezy, it's light and airy, and it was not named by the composer. All that was 'unintentional.' it's nice to sit in the middle and enjoy the wonderful narrative of a piece of music; but also be able to hear the beauty of the instrumentation, the counterpoint and harmony, the melodies and rhythms without them having any significance but that of music.

Today, some conductors will turn and address the audience, which had long been a faux pas. It certainly breaks down the forth wall. One can learn a lot from going to pre-concert lectures, and listening to conductors, composers and noted scholars. That's where you can get insights and education. Add good programming and people will come. It's the woman, woman in the 60s esp. really get into great music, and they get roused by music that is provocative, interesting and somewhat out of the ordinary of what we normally hear.
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Old 08-23-2009, 01:08 PM
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Interesting info, Ken.

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The music is rarely pure. That's the problem:)
Yes, everything has a story if you dig deep enough. But how clear or interesting is the story?

Which of these performances has strong extramusical impact?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdhhfMQwvec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsEHH0cDwHw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwivHPit22A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYuyar-rrNY

Would you like to hear the story of my drum throne? There is a story behind it (or was that a behind on the story?), but it's not interesting for anyone who's not a keen chair sniffer :)
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:32 PM
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You mean like producers controlled Herbie Hancock and Captain Beefheart and Pere Ubu and Soft Machine Led Zep and ... ? You get my point. Apples and oranges, Doctor. Svengali type pop producers work with aspiring pop stars not great artists, who are rarely controlled and, if so, not for long.

Pop in the art world can be great. Gary Larson ain't no Picasso but he's one of my favourite people ever!
Captain Beefheart pop? Led Zeppelin??????

I don't think we are thinking in the same terms as what pop music is. I always thought of it as top 40 ish stuff, like Beyonce, Lil Wayne, and Kelly Clarkson of today.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:49 PM
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Interesting info, Ken.



Yes, everything has a story if you dig deep enough. But how clear or interesting is the story?
Is that a rhetorical question?

I think the question is, " is the story musical?" When you listen to something like the Coltrane Quartet, there is always a strong musical narrative, though there may be a descriptive narrative as well. From the above examples, it would probably be the AC/DC. If you were to give me a choice of AC/DC and Bill Evans, I'd have to go with the Bill Evans.

I think people can be biased to say the jazz is a 'high' art form, when not all jazz is great music. Not everyone composing in Vienna in 1788 was a 'great' composer. Now you hear a lot of people saying rock should get the same recognition as ' a high' or great art form. It becomes classic. The term classical music comes from the same concept of being classic, old and exemplary of the greatness of its time. Now you have the classic era of the American song and musical theater 1940s and 1950s, the classic jazz era of the 1950s and 60s, and classic rock era of the 1960s and 70s. The music does become enshrined. In America, and NY in particular, people look back at the time as an artistic Golden Era. It may very well be that it was. In 1949, you could see Cole Porter, Rodgers and Hammerstein, or the great plays of Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller on Broadway, hear Monk, Bird or Bud Powell play in the nightclubs or Copland and Bernstein at the Philharmonic. But it is somewhat dangerous to go back to some time period and exemplify it and how great it was then, and it really sucks now.

Now is a very interesting time in the history of music because with the Internet you have a wide-open, global space to get music out. For the folkies, it was the music of the people that was as important or probably more important than what was being played on the radio. I think many big bands, like The Beatles, come to understand that about music, the marketing gets in the way. Things become hyped, and Brittany Spears becomes the number one album. Because it is the best thing happening at the time: p What is important to whom, when and why? Today you have such a proliferation of bands and artists; anyone could make a CD. Everyone could get their music out, and the concept of an overseer, the Church, The Censor, The Industry, is slowly diminishing. That is true republicanism, and in that world Does pop really have a place? (Bye-bye pop music.)
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Captain Beefheart pop? Led Zeppelin??????

I don't think we are thinking in the same terms as what pop music is. I always thought of it as top 40 ish stuff, like Beyonce, Lil Wayne, and Kelly Clarkson of today.
Doctor, you raised Picasso as an example of someone with artistic freedom. He was not "pop" but progressive for his day. Maybe the equivalent of Jimi Hendix (?) - different, strong technique, forward-thinking and original. He was too good to be controlled; why control something that people are already excited about?

So I chose bands that also enjoyed that freedom.

Ken, I thought true republicanism invloved going into debt to boost the military and going on hare-brained invasions :P

More seriously, I think pop will always be around because simple and catchy music works for those who don't listen hard enough to enjoy nuance, skill or originality. It's musical ice cream. I like ice cream but I don't want a diet of it. I eat a lot of veggies, which I enjoy because they are versatile, taste good, are nourishing and don't involve killing animals to satisfy my tatste buds. I like my musical veggies too :)
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:49 AM
wy yung wy yung is offline
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

I try to avoid any lofty ideals when dealing with music. There is music for everyone. People such as Kenny Aronoff, Steve Gadd, Steve Ferrone, JR Robinson etc have all played on loads of so called "pop" music. Does this diminish their careers or what they have offered of themselves? I do not think so.

Anyway, what is pop? To me the punk of today, heavy metal and Kylie Minogue all comes under the banner of "pop music". Music by the Bad Plus and others of their ilk, is not pop music. Pop is simply a part of the mainstream culture.

I'll play it. I'll also play anything else offered. It's all music.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:06 AM
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Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Yeah, I feel similarly. My understanding is that Steve Godd [sic] doesn't think any music is too easy for him because he sees the challenge in getting any track right. So I don't think he'd see it devaluing his career.
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:23 AM
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Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Steve Gadd still is, has long been and will probably always be my favorite drummer. People say he invented disco with "Do the Hustle" but it is quintessential Gadd from the upbeat tom in the intro, ghost notes, tom fills and two measure phrases. It's not just some basic four on the floor disco beat.

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Ken, I thought true republicanism involved going into debt to boost the military and going on hare-brained invasions :P

. . .and blaming the democrats for it. :)

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
More seriously, I think pop will always be around because simple and catchy music works for those who don't listen hard enough to enjoy nuance, skill or originality. It's musical ice cream. I like ice cream but I don't want a diet of it. I eat a lot of veggies, which I enjoy because they are versatile, taste good, are nourishing and don't involve killing animals to satisfy my taste buds. I like my musical veggies too :)

I would hope that some day people will either realize they can just make that music themselves or teach their kids to do it. There is a very large community of folk music enthusiast here in the States, and esp. NY. They essential believe that people should write music to chronicle their own lives, and not have the pop industry do it for them. They can keep that chronicle for their grandchildrens' grandchildren.
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:27 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Doctor, you raised Picasso as an example of someone with artistic freedom. He was not "pop" but progressive for his day. Maybe the equivalent of Jimi Hendix (?) - different, strong technique, forward-thinking and original. He was too good to be controlled; why control something that people are already excited about?

So I chose bands that also enjoyed that freedom.
Well that is pretty much my point as well. Pop art to Impressionists might equate to all the cheap copies of Whistler's Mother that hit the market to end up in people's dining rooms in the 1900s. And if we want to really draw a parallel to today's pop music producers, we must further prostitute the art to the point of cropping out everything in the painting beyond the subject because it is an "unecessary waste of space", with no commercial value. Imagine Picasso or Van Gogh allowing that to happen. I cannot picture Page or Hendrix allowing one of their songs to be carved up ala Rolling Stones or Beatle standards. Zappa? Ha ha ha - that's just entertaining to think about
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

I hold current pop music trends to the same esteem I give to my time while on the toilet. It should all go down the crapper and sent to a waste treatment plant. Too far?

But that being said, I don't think being the drummer for a pop band is selling your soul to the musical devil. Granted, a lot of the people that get hired (is it just me, or are they normally gospel chops drummers?) are advertised to the point that I don't want to have anything to do with the company they're representing, but they had to go through all the auditions and made it out on top. That has to mean something. N'Sync's drummer, Billy Ashbaugh, is actually a good, completely respectable drummer. I've looked up what he's been doing after the boy band, and he's a really fantastic player.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:16 AM
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Jeremy Bender Jeremy Bender is online now
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Play what you like. Life's too short to play music you hate...

(just my little 2 cent opinion)
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:32 AM
wy yung wy yung is offline
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Rosanna was a pop song. I am currently teaching that groove to about 6 students.

I realised some years ago that most people only like music. Some simply tolerate it while others give it no thought at all. What we as musicians miss is the understanding of the public's general lack of interest.

Sometimes too I am tired and just want to hear something light. Mostly I listen to world music and it is amazing. There's a great deal of choice. But you know, many musicians I have known have had the most limited taste of any people I have met. If a style does not fit into their idea of what is cool, most just close their ears. Especially the least experienced musicians.
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