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  #1  
Old 08-11-2009, 05:54 PM
Dane777 Dane777 is offline
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Default Pop Music in General

Im interested.
What are your guys thought on pop music and the
musicianship of the players today, how they should or
are approaching it, Is it a sell out to be a pop drummer,
is it overrated, under rated etc.
What have you guys got to say about?
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Originally Posted by Dane777 View Post
Im interested.
What are your guys thought on pop music and the
musicianship of the players today, What have you guys got to say about?
Ok I'll step up....

Forgettable melodies terrible songs, no guitar solos (Un cool? = can't play 'em) & my main gripe is the voices of the so-called lead singers. Hardly good enough to be doing a backing harmony.

I watched The Killers a while back to listen to the drumming.....& once the lead singer opened his mouth my gf said he makes it sound like a middle school band doing their first gigs. I agree.
"The Editors is another. Coldplay...it's a huge list...miles away from talent/quality.
Being original doesn't mean you are good/talented.

If they are good drummers, they hide it well for the money. Single strokes all the time (Moony is the only guy that could get away with that, & he certainly did:^)
If you see them play the technique sucks as if they've never had a lesson. That's what makes drummers the butt of non musician jokes.

That's showbiz $£$£$£.= con the kids.
Musically literate?

Just saying.

Ok. Now flame me...we all drummers here. That's fine.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

For one thing, pop is a pretty general term. So it really depends on the act.

From what I've come to know, a pop artist's band is comprised of top notch musicians. Sure it may not be the most technically demanding gig, but it's their job to play the part tightly and precisely. Some call it selling out. I call it success. I've got the up most respect for people who are able to land a gig such as this.

On the other hand, there are pop bands who somehow make it to the mainstream through their haircuts... good for them, enjoy it while it lasts.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Modern pop? Pop has always been a varied beast. There's always been some fairly soulless stuff with an emphasis on marketing. There's also always been pop music created by people who love what they do.

I find that some of the least inspiring music around has been made by schooled musicians - sessioners hired to propel a pretty or handsome face into the spotlight or to produce musak. Most times, however, if you make the effort to learn to play or sing well enough to play to audiences, then the chances are you put some passion into your music. Some may not care for your type of passion, others will.

I couldn't give a damn whether drummers plays single stroke rolls, doubles or flammadiddlyruffs. Does the drumming groove? Does it complement the song? Does it have a vibe?
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

To be quite honest I'm not sure what pop music is today. I have always used the term to mean popular music. In my neck of the woods, I can't even find what would be considered pop music. There is no weekly top 40 like there was when I was growing up. There are so many genres of music now that didn't exist when I was young. The music industry is so over saturated with different sounds that I guess I'm not sure what pop would be. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. When I grew up in the 60's and 70's we had pretty much Rock n Roll, Country, Folk, Soul that was played on the top 40 stations. Over time other genres joined the mix so that today there are probably 10 different types or more of just Metal. Because of this I think the talent pool is much thinner and groups that cut records today would not have made it 30 years ago. Also today if you can't get a label to sign you just start your own. It's like football. The more teams they add to the league the more less talented players make teams, a thinning of the talent. Just my thoughts.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Pop music is not supposed to be all that sophisticated. Be that as it may, a lot of those metal bands have pretty outrageous drummers: Jaska Raatikainen, Tomas Haake, The Rev. One could say "I don't like the music;" but that would be less a comment on the quality of the music and more a comment on the age of the person.

You listen to some of these artists like Jason Mraz or Katy Perry and ask, really what is there not to like. Then you have artists like Alicia Keys, John Legend or John Mayer and they are pretty good song writers. There are some great bands putting out great albums: Radiohead, Muse, Three Doors Down, The Roots. And I even like Coldplay, always did. Used to go see them when they played the clubs. I don't listen to them anymore but it's good pop. You have these prog bands like Dream Theater, Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree that have been putting out quality albums, some for two decades, and are still largely under the radar.

That might not be a popular opinion; but I really don't care.
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

I'm not sure what to consider pop these days. I just listen to music. I find kiss in the pop section at my local music store. I find led zep in the heavy metal section in some places.........uhh yeah i don't know about that one. All i know is that i'm not embarassed to play any type of music as long as i enjoy it. I even play some country from time to time.
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Be that as it may, a lot of those metal bands have pretty outrageous drummers: Jaska Raatikainen, Tomas Haake, The Rev. One could say "I don't like the music;" but that would be less a comment on the quality of the music and more a comment on the age of the person.
Heh, metal's hardly pop. True, that it's reflective of age, though. I don't get the Cookie Monster vocal style. I never even worked out why it's called a death growl, since as far as I know dead people don't growl and zombies kind of go "uhhhhhhh ooouhhhhh".

As for pop drumming, Green Day has a pop drummer who won't be putting shivers down Billy Cobham's spine any time soon http://www.take40.com/music/music-li...nt/1?t=26541.3. Still, it's a decent drum arrangement, and composing an effective drum part is a HUGE aspect of pop drumming. I think fancy drum parts are considered a bit dated and naively showoffy modern music that's not metal/jazz/world unless you have someone rare like Stewart Copeland.

Dane, I used to think of players selling out but no more. Usually we'll say someone is selling out if they shift from original music to mainstream like, say, John Wetton going from King Crimson and early UK to Asia. But he'd played some amazing things, and if he wants to make some $$, then he's earned it. (He was the most poppy writer in the early/mid 70s incarnation of KC anyway). Most pop musos are into the music they play so it's not selling out IMO - they're just lucky enough to have a popular form of bad taste :)
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2009, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

If you listen to a lot of Bartok, Stravinsky and Elliot Carter, Heavy Metal is pop. What is pop? Is pop a genre? It only leads the way down to unanswerable questions.

Is Green Day really pop? How could Disturbed, Green Day, Brittany Spears and Hannah Montana all be pop? I guess if you listen to a lot of Bartok, they really don't sound that different. :)
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Old 08-14-2009, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Okay... let's just look at it this way: The Beatles started out playing pop... fortunately for the music world they moved away from the mainstream later in their career but the fact is that when their early stuff is really mostly candy-coated big dollar pop... Beethoven (since deltadrummer brought up classical) was pop... it was formulaic music composed to be good to the audience to listen to. I would say that composers like stravinsky, taichovsky, dvorak deviated from the forumlaic sound a lot and were still very successful but even chopin (whom i love btw) would have been considered pop by today's standards.
As for drumming and pop I will say that while a lot of it is not techincally sophisticated, it is not necessarily bad. A lot of "pop" bands or stars use drum machines (especially in hip-hop and rap) but when you listen to enough of it you'll find that occassionally there are truly good grooves (some you'd need 4 hands and 4 feet to play but still good). The point is that in all genres there is a lot of crap... 90% of music is crap and you'll occassionally find the other 10% that is decent. I don't necessarily like pop music as a genre but a catchy tune is a catchy tune... it sells tickets/albums and i would be thrilled to be as big of a success as the modern pop stars (even hannah montana and the like). For decades a lot of pop music has been written by a composer and performed by a star... this is not necessarily a bad thing either... the composers compose and the performers perform.
So like i said, you'll find that some pop drummers are technical and play really good fills and grooves but 90% of music will still always be crap and this is true for all genres.

ps: flammadiddlyruffs - I have to work on these :)
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Old 08-14-2009, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

I don't see Green day & the like as pop. Mr T.Cool is cool.

To me, seeing the early teenagers screaming & shouting at some groups at one of the open air V festivals for example... that's my idea of pop.
That's were I see the bad drummers, rubbish voices, terrible song writing, which I find pathetic & sad.

We all have our own perceptions of course.

I will ad that there's music I dislike but can appreciate it's quality & don't slag it off.
David grey, good voice, good drumming but not for me thanks. Never liked Genesis (love Yes) but never put Genesis down.
Just because I don't like particular groups/music doesn't have me putting them down calling them rubbish.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.
That is all.

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Last edited by Royal; 08-15-2009 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  #12  
Old 08-15-2009, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

What do we make of this? "Metal can be thought of as pop" ... "Beethoven was pop in his day" ... "Green Day is not pop" ... "What is pop?" ... "Pop is not a genre" ...

There's plenty of music that most people would say is modern western pop. For me, there are these elements: Short. Melodic with at least one hook, usually in the chorus, repeated many times (often to a fode out). More often major than minor. Simple lyrics that most times are based on luuurve. No soloing, or a short solo after the second chorus.

Wikipedia puts it like this:

Musicologists often identify the following characteristics as typical of the pop music genre:
  • a focus on the individual song or singles, rather than on extended works or albums
  • aimed at appealing to a general audience, rather than to a particular sub-culture or ideology
  • an emphasis on craftsmanship rather than formal "artistic" qualities
  • an emphasis on recording, production, and technology, over acoustic live performance
  • a tendency to reflect existing trends rather than progressive developments
We all know there's much overlap between genres in most musical forms. Most times songs that people call pop are popularised (often saccharine) versions of R&B, soul, rock, funk, rap, disco, country, folk, metal etc. Sure, Green Day is a rock band, but the song is pop to my ears. Pop rock if you like. It was chosen as a single and is in the Top 40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theLimpingToad
I don't necessarily like pop music as a genre but a catchy tune is a catchy tune... it sells tickets/albums and i would be thrilled to be as big of a success as the modern pop stars
And so say all of us! I'd say most practised their flammadiddlyruffadoublemacues at some stage.

No accounting for taste. When I see clothes in shops I am amazed that anyone even makes most of them let alone buys them. Same with music. I like music from all genres, although only very few in opera, metal and rap.

I guess the more closely we connect with something the more discerning we become because we come across irritations that superficial connections don't uncover - like snoring and squeezing the toothpaste from the middle. For a lot of people, what is a major passion in our lives - music - is nothing more than "wallpaper" in the "rooms" of their social lives.

Royal, can you you remember the names of the particular bands?
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Old 08-15-2009, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
aimed at appealing to a general audience, rather than to a particular sub-culture or ideology
That's the main thing for me as to what is Pop.
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Old 08-15-2009, 10:06 AM
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Royal, can you you remember the names of the particular bands?
I remember seeing (on TV) playing live as I said...Editors, The Killers...with an imitation lead singer...good luck to him, the're ok with their bank manager...but O my....
Some can sing very well but still have terrible voices.
Sorry...can't list other names...too painful to watch until the end.

Did see a band..The magic numbers/ or was it the doves tour Japan.
How the ... a bunch of boring amateurs....standing there...playing terrible , forgettable songs, no dynamics, looking down at their socks.
The drummer adding nothing.....no feel...

I like a raw, exiting performance, a couple of dud notes here & there is ok with me....natural passion, feel are important.
These showers had zero that....
That's entertainment/music?

I can't post on the subject without going into a rant. (Because I'm a music lover) so I'll end this transmission. Out.
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Old 08-15-2009, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Doesn't pop stand for popular? So pop isnt really genre, but more like a pinpoint to the music that is popular at a given time. I think the mainstream is a more sutable term. Cause The mainstream thing dosent say anything about quality, its whats selling. I have fairly open mind when it comes to music. Everything from modern classical music to mainstream stuff. And what I want is music that dosent need to sell me a image ( about sex, drugs, ganster attitude etc) because the quality of the music is so good that I can create my own and interpert it as I like.
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Old 08-15-2009, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Editors? I've not heard of them before. Do you mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uSqbMGGFDI

Not for me but I never understood why people liked music of that ilk. To me it just goes bla bla bla. However, if they're the same band as in the link, they managed to pull off a competent studio pop sound. Maybe they're better in the studio than live?

A few years ago I remember hearing a single of The Killers that I liked, but a lot of their stuff is that 80s pop rock which doesn't do it for me. Still, they clearly have it together in the studio.

So what's the trick? What is it that these bands have that lets them hit the big time while ostensibly more talented and/or creative musicians struggle?

They're cute. They write strong melodies. They're tight. They write, play and arrange with discipline and clarity of direction. How many of us are cute? How many of us eschew grunt, energy, complexity and texturing in order to focus on strength of melody? How many of us would give up the joy of eclecticism and variation in writing and playing order to make clear musical statements? How many of us skip those cool twists in arrangements in order to be accessible?

These bands would no doubt be well organised, and have worked out their interactions with the guys doing the lights and mix. Planning and hard work make a difference and it's something my old bands lacked. If only I knew 30 years ago what I know now ...

Unless you're a real pop-head there are significant musical sacrifices to be made in order to "make it". I woudn't make those sacrifices when I was young because I was into non-mainstream music. I won't make them now because I'm too old and there's no point :)

Last edited by Pollyanna; 08-16-2009 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 08-15-2009, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Doesn't pop stand for popular? So pop isnt really genre, but more like a pinpoint to the music that is popular at a given time. I think the mainstream is a more sutable term. Cause The mainstream thing dosent say anything about quality, its whats selling. I have fairly open mind when it comes to music. Everything from modern classical music to mainstream stuff. And what I want is music that dosent need to sell me a image ( about sex, drugs, ganster attitude etc) because the quality of the music is so good that I can create my own and interpert it as I like.
Many people identify pop as a genre; but I think that such identification is so mired with bias that such categorization becomes problematic. Historically, in American popular music, where would you put a tune like Tea for Two, Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy, Or singers like Fats Domino, Patti Page or Doris Day.
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Old 08-15-2009, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Editors? I've not heard of them before. Do you mean this?
:)
This.....
The singer...ha..,is interviewed by the dj's that are old enough to be hid granddad...& he's treated like he was a genius.

Give me the real world anyday..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci4eb...eature=related
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:36 AM
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This.....
The singer...ha..,is interviewed by the dj's that are old enough to be his granddad...& he's treated like he was a genius.

Give me the real world anyday..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci4eb...eature=related
OMG, that link was really bad - lol. Ok, I see where you're coming from now :)

In the vid with the studio take it sounded like he was influenced by Jim Morrison's vocal style, and it sounded less natural for him than it was with Jimbo. He clearly didn't have the monitors on stage to help him pull off his faux-baritone voice. Funny what bad monitors can do to a singer. Plenty of decent singers have gone off key when they can't hear themselves. He pulls it off in the studio, and once people are fans they'll forgive a lot live.

Interesting point about pop, Ken. Still, what label could you apply to songs like Brian Hyland's Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini or The Archies's Sugar Sugar?

How about "commercial" instead of "pop"?
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

I still tend to believe as I said, that Pop was just popular then it became its own sub-genre, with vary wide boundaries. And if you don't believe me check this website.
Pop, where?

http://www.alaskajim.com/charts/genresingles/pop.php

Or check Billboards Pop Genre chart.

http://www.billboard.com/charts/pop-...arts/pop-songs
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Old 08-16-2009, 04:38 AM
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Sure, GD, point made. Any "genre" that includes November Rain, Relax, Over The Rainbow, Bohemian Rhapsody, American Pie, Smells Like Teen Spirit, Sex Machine, You Learn and Blister in the Sun (All-Time Top Pop Singles list from GD's link) is too broad to be useful.

But the context of this thread is about commercial bands being crap.

Another thing to consider is that the recording quality was poor. If a band's focus is more on sound than energy/power/groove and songs rely on subtle nuances in the studio for their character, then a bad recording sound will kill it, especially if the vocalist - the main thing in this music - has weak foldback and doesn't have enough stage experience to compensate.

Compare the studio and live of INXS's Burn For You:

Live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzHWcjnDFts

Studio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTBsztbSM3U

The studio is a great piece of pop IMO but the live recording isn't too flash.

I hated playing supports for Top 40 bands in the 80s. The crowds would only turn up when the headline act was due to start, and more than once we were sabotaged by their sound crews. The crew for The Venetians left the PA howling with low end feedback for our enitre set. I guess it ensured we wouldn't upstage them - as if that would happen anyway.

There was another gig (forgot the main act) where we were given the most gruesome monitoring and we couldn't get it fixed. My toms were inaudible, my snare was normal volume and my kick sounded like the 1812 Overture!

So good to be out of that scene ...
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Interesting point about pop, Ken. Still, what label could you apply to songs like Brian Hyland's Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini or The Archies's Sugar Sugar?

How about "commercial" instead of "pop"?
Genre in itself is an interesting topic. I think in the modern world it has more to do with marketing than music, and that is why I tend to be critical of the term. The problem, as you stated, is that any style of music could become pop as long as it sells enough recordings to get on the list. As an example, 'classical music' is a style; but the term is also used as a genre, mostly for marketing purposes. The genre of Beethoven's Fifth, however, is a symphony. That describes how it functions musically. Then you have the Ninth, which was radical because it mixed genres.

I would say that there is something that is pop, and Doggie in the Window, Sugar, Sugar, Diamond Ring, Tea for Two, [ to go back, do exemplify it. I would say there is a quality of the music that is somewhat superficial. The Beatles were 'pop,' and then they changed and took the whole 'pop' music world with them. What about Motown, What's Going On as compared to The Supremes?

Historically it was music that girls (and little kids) liked that was pop, and of course, rock and roll, which guys liked was serious, it was radical, it was revolution. So there is a certain disparagement of the term 'pop' that existed that had a deprecating sense toward young woman. This is still relevant "N' Sync pop, NIrvana 'rock.' Brittany Spears or Celine Dion, pop. Heavy metal not pop.

In the later 70s labels began to realize that if you could get girls to listen to the guys' music, you could double your audience. So Journey got a singer, Genesis became a trio and went light rock, and then your had 'hair metal,' which was about guys getting girls, cars and parties. The was really The Beatles model. They were able to go from being a boy band to a serious band, from 'pop' to 'rock.'

Doggie in the Window is really a waltz, Sugar Sugar is a rock tune and Last Train to Charleston, written by Neil Diamond, is rock and roll. You could say that is its style, and use the more 'culturally' defined term 'pop' as a genre. The way defined through wiki has more to do with these cultural realities than musical realities. What about The Dan, Peg as compared to Deacon Blues. Is Peg, pop? It was written as a single. But is is the same album.

Now the idea has changed because of the rebirth of the single download.
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Old 08-16-2009, 10:26 AM
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Genre in itself is an interesting topic. I think in the modern world it has more to do with marketing than music, and that is why I tend to be critical of the term.

... I would say that there is something that is pop, and Doggie in the Window, Sugar, Sugar, Diamond Ring, Tea for Two, [ to go back, do exemplify it. I would say there is a quality of the music that is somewhat superficial.

... Historically it was music that girls (and little kids) liked that was pop, and of course, rock and roll, which guys liked was serious, it was radical, it was revolution. So there is a certain disparagement of the term 'pop' that existed that had a deprecating sense toward young woman.

... In the later 70s labels began to realize that if you could get girls to listen to the guys' music, you could double your audience. So Journey got a singer, Genesis became a trio and went light rock, and then your had 'hair metal,' which was about guys getting girls, cars and parties. The was really The Beatles model. They were able to go from being a boy band to a serious band, from 'pop' to 'rock.'

... Doggie in the Window is really a waltz, Sugar Sugar is a rock tune and Last Train to Charleston, written by Neil Diamond, is rock and roll.
Ken, love your work :)

The guy/girl nexus is a big one. It happens in terms of instrumentation too. In my experience men tend to be more interested in the scientific aspect of music and women in the expressive aspects, at least expression that's not necessarily intense like blind lustfulness, fury, depressive, spiritual etc. More everyday expressiveness, I guess. Of course it's only a tendency rather than absolute, as with anything. When guys opt for this "half-@ssed" approach by being ultra-accessible and eschewing their own expression, many other guys are not impressed because it's not overtly impressive in terms of skill level Ie. science) and dynamism.

I have trouble seeing Sugar Sugar as rock. At least by today's semantics. To me, labels are about communicating and strict definitions mean less than commonly held views. Agree entirely with your point re: marketing.

If you go to a website looking for Sugar Sugar, you would definitely look under "pop" before looking for "rock". By the same token if you took leave of your senses and decided to buy Doggie In The Window you'd look under "pop"; you'd find Strauss in the "classical" section.

So the genres are really defined by common understanding and "pop" as a label has its place, even if it's as sprawling and as diverse as rock.

Talking of waltzes calls to mind an interesting offtopic aside; my Dad loves old swing music - Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey and ... ugh! ... Kay Kaiser . He thinks all music with an electric guitar in it is just noise. His mother loved waltzes and thought his swing music was primitive noise.
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Old 08-16-2009, 08:49 PM
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Ken, love your work :)
Oh, You're the one. :)

Usually on these sights, I get a lot of criticism for my approach.I guess.

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Of course it's only a tendency rather than absolute, as with anything.
This is the whole thing right here, isn't it? There are generalizations, perspectives and insights, not any of which can be taken too seriously.



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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I have trouble seeing Sugar Sugar as rock. At least by today's semantics. To me, labels are about communicating and strict definitions mean less than commonly held views. Agree entirely with your point re: marketing.So the genres are really defined by common understanding and "pop" as a label has its place, even if it's as sprawling and as diverse as rock.
It may be that you just hear it differently; but I think if I said 'pop-rock' then there would be no problem. Yes, the term 'pop' has it's place, and its place is largely marketing. :)
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:13 AM
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Oh, You're the one. :)
It's a dirty job but ... :)

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It may be that you just hear it differently; but I think if I said 'pop-rock' then there would be no problem. Yes, the term 'pop' has it's place, and its place is largely marketing. :)
Here's a coincidence. Just this week a few band members started asking about our direction. We have a fairly eclectic mix of songs in the sets and some members are wondering aloud if we should be filtering more tightly.

Our singer and I had a chat about this (and other things) over dinner last night and he had some interesting thoughts about it. Basically, he felt that we should choose songs whose general mood and feel resonate with us - that represent our personalities - rather than by genre. So, for instance, I wanted to drop You're So Vain because it was less rootsy than our other material (which is mostly blues, RnB, soul).

He was happy to drop it, not because of the genre, but because the sentiment was not "us" - leaning as it does towards bunny-boiler bitter and twistedness about a relationship breakdown. None of us in the band are of that ilk, and are more inclined to quietly go off and lick our wounds than get in people's faces. So our set includes upbeat ditties like Sorrow, Cry Me a River, The Thrill Is Gone, Love Me Or Leave Me which are more "Aw gee whiz" than "YOU LOUSY &*^%$!".
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Pitch correction and pre-recorded tracks (yes even drum loops) are the modern issues that allow pretty much anyone to be a "success" if the music Gods deem them marketable.

Does anyone in the "pop" arena even attempt to sing live any longer are is it all lip-synching (and not always in "sync")? Anyone who saw the "performance" of Mariah Carey on America's Got Talent a week or so ago or whoever sees Beyonce, etc. "perform" knows that they may as well listen to the CD. No real live singing at all.

Take a pop star like Taylor Swift, cute girl who may be able to write lyrics but cannot hold a pitch longer than 2 seconds...yet tours and plays to 10s of thousands of the traditional pop audience - screaming kids.

In my view, pop music has always been about what is marketable and what will sell. Sometimes other artists "crossover" into the pop area with a song or two and I really don't blame them for taking the money. Bands such as Greenday may occasionally cross over into pop but I don't see the Britney Spears/Taylor Swift/Ashley Simpson/Jonas Brothers crowd snapping up tickets to a Greenday concert. Maybe they will buy one song off Itunes...

As far as the drummers are concerned...some are horrible hacks, but a lot are guys/gals who found a way to make a living doing what they love. Pop music has never featured any instrumental solos (got to keep it in the time limit) and most of the time the drummer is working very hard at keeping the so called artist in time.

A few musicians will make it past the "pop" stage and become true artists (again in my opinion), Take John Mayer for example, comparing his early "pop" stuff to the stuff he does with the John Mayer Trio is a perfect example of growing as a musician.

As far as the Beatles, not sure they ever got past the pop stage...often wonder if people really love the music or is it the aura that surrounds them. Not a popular opinion I'm am sure but hey, I'm entitled to my thoughts.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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For a lot of people, what is a major passion in our lives - music - is nothing more than "wallpaper" in the "rooms" of their social lives.


You have a real talent for crystalizing things. Another literary gem.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:05 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

I missed that one. Nice :)
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:08 PM
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And so say all of us! I'd say most practised their flammadiddlyruffadoublemacues at some stage.
I really have to get a copy of your rudiments sheet. :)
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:19 AM
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If you listen to a lot of Bartok, Stravinsky and Elliot Carter, Heavy Metal is pop. What is pop? Is pop a genre? It only leads the way down to unanswerable questions.

Is Green Day really pop? How could Disturbed, Green Day, Brittany Spears and Hannah Montana all be pop? I guess if you listen to a lot of Bartok, they really don't sound that different. :)

Metal is the new jazz, it is in its infancy, but trust me, we're working with odd meters, exploring classical roots, unconventional song structure, playing musically and not egotistically.... metal is not pop, metalcore is, but magerine isn't butter either. Its a fine line between all the little subgenres and there is a mainstream aspect to it, as with any new genre. The underground metal scene is still learning where music came from before it decides where music is going, don't write it off yet, you'll be disappointed.

Green day is pop, that whole band is just a marketed image, there is NOTHING of substance in it, NOTHING creative, NOTHING original, NOTHING inspiring... I am really tired of whiny US kids going out and getting a few tats, and then thinking their punk singing in a fake British accent over a pop troupe. One day mr green day drummer, I will hopefully have the credibility to paste my face over yours on the zildjian poster that says "defining the bay area sound" at guitar center. If all else fails I'll paste another picture of tim alexander on top of it. Any kid with the first funky primer book can define the bay area sound by that logic, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmcommerci alized music industry. I'll be here to defend the artistic community from frauds and whores though. I just really hope these guys don't actually call themselves serious musicians, with all the recycling going on you'd think they were with greenpeace or something.

Here's how I define pop: Anything syrupy enough to be "leaked" from speakers rather than played. Anything infuriatingly generic, bland, and of course: unreasonably popular for no musically credible reason. Damn I bet I'd be a better drummer with a D cup. Anything that is an inferior reiteration of someone elses originally good idea. (Disturbed could get a rant of its own, that one interview where the guitarist claimed that all the negative feedback towards his music was because "he wasnt afraid to use "melodies" made me choke.) Anything that makes thoughts like these go through my head:

I whole heartedly hate pop music for everything that it sounds like, and everything it is. Nothing on the top 40 charts EVER requires more than 6 months of drumset experience and familiarity with a metronome. I hate that it all sounds the same, I hate that its all the same tempo, I hate that its all the same feel, that all the lyrics mean the same thing, the fact thats its all in 3 or 4, the fact that they get awards like "Best" album or artist when it should read "most popular"

I hate that most members of the public are too dumb not to get baited by some model run through a million different effects on a soundboard, I hate how condescendingly simple it is to listen to, and how theres nothing else you can do but sit and.....endure it while it plays. I hate that amazing talents are forced into sounding identical just to make ends meet. I hate that it has forced the top quality of musicians who did not have the lifestyles to be famous into mentalities like "Well, it is kinda weird to make music that everyone who hears thinks is revolutionary, but watch the legion of travis barkers get all the recognition from the young un's"

All in all, we need pop. I wouldn't be as inspired to deviate from whats been done before and experiment in styles that are reviewed as "psychedelic-latin-blast-funk" just to see what it sounds like.
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:53 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

Here's where it all started:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujcYw2QTPzM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otW2gCM3gms

another good one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWfmfgHXAfE

Isn't what you are talking about really progressive metal or metal jazz fusion rather than heavy metal? Not that genre labels are really that important. It's either good of it's not; and if it's good, it is probably not that easy to classify.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:02 AM
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When I hear some 'pop' 'music' i cringe. Like Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga...Songs are very similar, lots of silly lyrics, melodies that can be catchy but usually just annoying. And has anyone heard Lady Gaga in an interview? I know where she got her name, and as much as she says so her lyrics are not intelligent ('I want to take a ride on your disco stick'...gee, that takes a lot of thought!). I also get annoyed when other musicians (like jazz or classical musicians) put in loads and loads of time practising and not getting paid a whole lot while these pop starts playing their teenybopper music get to live the expensive life.

Also, Australian Idol (and probably the variations in other countries)...it's annoying how the judges always comment about the energy of the performer, the feeling they put in, or their passion for music, but hardly ever comment on anything musical such as timbre, pitch, rhythmic tightness etc...

rant over.


edit...the post sounds pretty negative :p there is some pop music i like, usually the earlier it is the more i like it.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:26 AM
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I don't have a problem with pop/commercial music/whatever. When I was young I had an almost identical attitude to Gusty and Ferret. It all seemed so unfair.

I spent most of the the 90s working in a scientific institution. There were senior scientists with doctorates, professorships and whatever - world authorites in their field. What they were paid was a pittance compared with many run-of-the-mill chartered accountants and lawyers.

They could complain about it but it was their choice to be scientists and not accountants or lawyers. They chose to follow their passion in a area that a lot of people were interested in.
Basically, if you do something as a job that people will do for free as a passionate interest like the arts or science, the competition for jobs is fierce; there's more people wanting to do the work than there are openings. It's supply and demand, so the best jobs give you the worst "bang for the buck" as compared with skills required.

Musos who move into the pop field may or may not gain the same pleasure in creation that uncommercial musos do, but they have different aims. They want to a Number One more than they want to make strong artistic statements. The only thing stopping brilliant musos from moving into commercial music is their own sense of priorities. If they wanted to play the game (and risk being called a sellout by peers) they could waltz into a commercial band. Many prefer to play music they love.

It sucks that the best things in life don't come easy because there's such a crowd clamouring for a slice, but that's how it is.
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  #34  
Old 08-21-2009, 09:28 AM
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Wikipedia puts it like this:

Musicologists often identify the following characteristics as typical of the pop music genre:
  • a focus on the individual song or singles, rather than on extended works or albums
  • aimed at appealing to a general audience, rather than to a particular sub-culture or ideology
  • an emphasis on craftsmanship rather than formal "artistic" qualities
  • an emphasis on recording, production, and technology, over acoustic live performance
  • a tendency to reflect existing trends rather than progressive developments
The same musicologists would never accept wikipedia as a credible source. Sorry, had to do it.
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:46 AM
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Here's where it all started:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujcYw2QTPzM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otW2gCM3gms

another good one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWfmfgHXAfE

Isn't what you are talking about really progressive metal or metal jazz fusion rather than heavy metal? Not that genre labels are really that important. It's either good of it's not; and if it's good, it is probably not that easy to classify.

Essentially, my point with that post is that like jazz, "metal" is an umbrella genre with a million different sects under it, so it shouldn't be written off for it's mainstream facets like numetal and metalcore, which suck.

I call it tech-prog metal, that's what the other bands who are kinda out there call it. That description was what my drum teacher classified us as.

Polly, I will die a fiery death and burn forever in hell before I stop to think that any of the mainstream cardboard cutouts deserve a shred of respect. I dare blink 182, green day, evanessence or any other confused pop band to actually be creative. In the 100% chance case that they won't, I WILL push myself to be creative and move music forward to the next generation, and if it means being poor and largely unrecognized, I'll settle for knowing I actually deserve every penny I get. It doesn't matter to me that there's a ton of competition for this job, I just want to see at least a few more of the right guys get the job, and the guys who aren't up to par at least admit they're lucky to have hordes of 15 year old daddy's girls to fuel their repetition.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

More than General, actually I'm curious to know how much pop music there really is in The Colonel?
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:07 AM
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When I hear some 'pop' 'music' i cringe. .. edit...the post sounds pretty negative :p there is some pop music i like, usually the earlier it is the more i like it.
Heya Gust, where'vyabin? Playing, I hope.

Its should be no surprise that pop music is intrinsically formula music which is born with a commercial or business objective in mind rather than a interesting musical idea.

To work off a lowest-common-denominator principle works best in these circumstances.
Something that will please everybody/Nobody will hate it. Minimize the chance of failure, eliminate risk, don't take any chances.. in other words do everything diametrically opposite to what 'music creation' itself believes in.

A middle of the road musical statement if you will. ( We all know what happens if walk in the middle of the road...you get run over )

Take someone that has commercial appeal/potential, broad-base it so that you can close as many loopholes as possible, make him/her likable/acceptable to as many people as possible, change their hairstyle and promote the heck out of them.
If you hit gold, you are the man, and if you tank.. dump em and move on to the next best thing.

Funnily enough though, sheer talent, thoughout the history of pop has often broken through these corporate confines of musical expression and shined through despite the 'ball & chains'.

As an aside, I was reading Sting's autobiography the other day and he quite clearly states that for him POLICE was a commercial vehicle that he choose to ride only to get him to a point where he could then play 'his music'.

I think you've got a real grown up head on your shoulders and musical tastes & talent to match so I'm not surprised you're gagging at a lot of whats out there.. ; )

Hang in there, Gust..


....
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:35 AM
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More than General, actually I'm curious to know how much pop music there really is in The Colonel?
I'm sure if you asked nicely The Colonel could come up with something that might be classified as microtonal concrète pop/jazz experimental music ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britt
The same musicologists would never accept wikipedia as a credible source. Sorry, had to do it.
Britt, apology accepted. Just don't do it again :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferret
Polly, I will die a fiery death and burn forever in hell before I stop to think that any of the mainstream cardboard cutouts deserve a shred of respect.
Don't do it, Ferret! It sounds painful! Dying a fiery death and burning forever in the bowels of Hell probably wouldn't tickle either ...

Actually, I like some pop music a lot - or should I say the genre formerly known as pop? :) Now Ferret, before you think "bah humbug!" about me, remember you're talking to someone who owned 14 King Crimson albums in the 70s and now has 150 King Crimson MP3s on her hard drive.

Some commercial music is boring to me, but someone has to make music that speaks to teenyboppers and adrenaline-charged teenage boys. The kids no doubt find a lot of my music boring too. Fair enough, since music is made by people so it attracts and repels us just as we variously attract and repel others.

The main beef about pop seems to be the idea of commercially-minded cynics bastardising music for profit - barstardising that which we consider sacred. I suspect that's where you're coming from. But superficial music wouldn't be created if the demand wasn't there, if the big record companies couldn't find a way of tapping into humaity's lowest common denominator in order to make a buck.

But hey, they're businesses, and businesses are about making bucks - paying for mortgages, early retirements, private school education for the kids, overseas trips etc.

My beef's a bit different to yours - pop production. My irritation isn't aimed at the musos but the record companies. They have conditioned people's ears to expect mega production for music that doesn't warrant it (ie. not Sgt Pepper or Dark Side of the Moon). It puts bands deeply into debt (ie. under the company's control) and they polish up simple pop that should take 2 weeks to record. This, in turn, squeezes out indie bands who can't compete production-wise. Sometimes they still break through, most mostly they have to settle for niche markets to make a living. Or get a day job.

My other beef is how changes to licensing laws in my state have allowed our bars to be infested with lines of poker machines - bars that used to have live music. The poker machines pay better and the bar owners don't have to deal with rock'n'roll crowds, who tend to make a mess. Sydney's live scene is much the poorer for this, as compared with the glory days of live bands in this city during the 70s.

Edit: I posted at the same time as Aydee. It seems we're saying some similar things.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 08-21-2009 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Oops, I wrote too many "experimental"s
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  #39  
Old 08-21-2009, 12:01 PM
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I'm sure if you asked nicely The Colonel could come up with something that might be classified as microtonal experimental concrète pop/jazz experimental music ...
Aye Polly, I've been asking him to lay down his brushes ( on a bed of roses ) , and do an mp 3 of Ngudu's Billie Jean groove for me.

...and forever banish the myth and the stuff they say about jazz players in hushed voices,.... at wine tastings ; )
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Pop Music in General

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Here's where it all started:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujcYw2QTPzM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otW2gCM3gms

another good one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWfmfgHXAfE

Isn't what you are talking about really progressive metal or metal jazz fusion rather than heavy metal? Not that genre labels are really that important. It's either good of it's not; and if it's good, it is probably not that easy to classify.
Ken, I'd say prog metal has at least as much to do with the below songs as those of Jolly John's Frantic Virtuosos or Chick's Hyperactive Speed Kings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkE2r4lJ6Kg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE3yUHbLcwI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZfsyu9-Xsw

I prefer this side of KC and the Sunshine Band (below) 'cos I'm not a metal chick, but I love them in all their bizarro diversity :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNkOr2ZxzY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxa2X6IdV90

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trE5GT3FpTw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk9NfhRWNX0 (if you're impatient with this one, just skip to 3:23, settle back, and marvel at their brilliance)

PS. Aydee, maybe if you make playing BJ sound as thought it's something subversive?? Hope he doesn't read this or the cover's blown ...
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