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  #1  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:27 PM
ratomlinson ratomlinson is offline
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Default Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

I am continuing my project of lightening my overall hardware weight. I saw that Canopus makes a aluminum/steel "hybrid" throne base which is item #CDT-1HY-L. This Canopus throne base weighs 5.5 pounds while a similar throne base such are the Gibraltar B9608S throne base weighs 8.7 pounds.

Has anyone tried the Canopus hybrid hardware?
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  #2  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

Gibraltar tried some all aluminum hardware years ago, and they still may be making it, but I would be hesitant to get an all aluminum stand, mostly because of the tighteners. Aluminum screw threads are very easy to strip. How do I know? I have worked in an aluminum extrusion plant for the last 24 years and have drilled and tapped thousands of door handles. The threads would not hold up to repeated loosening and tightening.

The Canopus hardware seems to be onto somehting though. They use the steel where the screws go, and that would probably work nicely. They make a big deal out of their "hardened aluminum tube." It's just a 6061 or 6063 T6 pipe which has been through an age oven and this process is standard. My plant ships 1.2 million pounds of extrusions a week and 99.999999% have been "hardened".

Their website claims that they do this for weight (which is good) but sound reasons too...? My cymbals have been on many different stands and always sound the same to me, if there is a difference (like they claim) I have never noticed it.
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  #3  
Old 07-15-2009, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumr0 View Post
Gibraltar tried some all aluminum hardware years ago, and they still may be making it, but I would be hesitant to get an all aluminum stand, mostly because of the tighteners. Aluminum screw threads are very easy to strip. How do I know? I have worked in an aluminum extrusion plant for the last 24 years and have drilled and tapped thousands of door handles. The threads would not hold up to repeated loosening and tightening.

The Canopus hardware seems to be onto somehting though. They use the steel where the screws go, and that would probably work nicely. They make a big deal out of their "hardened aluminum tube." It's just a 6061 or 6063 T6 pipe which has been through an age oven and this process is standard. My plant ships 1.2 million pounds of extrusions a week and 99.999999% have been "hardened".

Their website claims that they do this for weight (which is good) but sound reasons too...? My cymbals have been on many different stands and always sound the same to me, if there is a difference (like they claim) I have never noticed it.
If there are aluminum stands out there that don't use steel inserts for the threaded apps (are there any?), not a problem, upgrade them to steel inserts.

So, the route to go is- use your existing stands and replace the steel tubes with T6 pipe. Canopus is doing this, their Hybrid is aluminum tubes. You may have to use bolts instead of rivets, but who cares!

The heavier the stand, the better the cymbal sounds... I found this out in the studio, try it if you get the chance.
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
If there are aluminum stands out there that don't use steel inserts for the threaded apps (are there any?), not a problem, upgrade them to steel inserts.

So, the route to go is- use your existing stands and replace the steel tubes with T6 pipe. Canopus is doing this, their Hybrid is aluminum tubes. You may have to use bolts instead of rivets, but who cares!

The heavier the stand, the better the cymbal sounds... I found this out in the studio, try it if you get the chance.
I hadn't considered that a heavier stand makes a cymbal sound better. I would think a lighter stand wouldn't dampen the cymbal as much - consider how a cymbal might sound if suspended from a wire. I know a heavy stand is more secure and less likely to tip or move. The added mass is good in some ways.
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Old 07-19-2009, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
I hadn't considered that a heavier stand makes a cymbal sound better. I would think a lighter stand wouldn't dampen the cymbal as much - consider how a cymbal might sound if suspended from a wire. I know a heavy stand is more secure and less likely to tip or move. The added mass is good in some ways.
A wire isn't a cymbal stand.

I was skeptical, until an engineer and I did a controlled test, the heavier stand made the cymbal sound better when recorded. A heavier stand doesn't vibrate as much, more mass.
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

Surely the function of the stand is to make the cymbals free to move about their axis as desired and as isolated as possible from the ground. A heavier stand may help in this process, but it may not be the weight per se that helps it may just be a better design.

Anyway, maybe this could be heard in the studio if you are listening for it, does it matter to you?

Davo
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
A wire isn't a cymbal stand.
True, but I don't thinks that's what he was saying. I think the idea of suspending a cymbal like this would be really interesting. You'd have to figure out a way to control the angle of the dangle so to speak, but I think it really would be the best way to get the most unadulterated sound out of a cymbal. That said, I certainly have had issues with the vibrations of the lightweight stands I gig with. They tend to rattle quite a bit if I use mallets and it definitely affects the nuance of the sound at low volumes when something is rattling at the end of a ballad.
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  #8  
Old 07-20-2009, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

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Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
True, but I don't thinks that's what he was saying. I think the idea of suspending a cymbal like this would be really interesting. You'd have to figure out a way to control the angle of the dangle so to speak, but I think it really would be the best way to get the most unadulterated sound out of a cymbal. That said, I certainly have had issues with the vibrations of the lightweight stands I gig with. They tend to rattle quite a bit if I use mallets and it definitely affects the nuance of the sound at low volumes when something is rattling at the end of a ballad.
It seems counter intuitive that a heavier stand would help sound. There's so much fussing with felts and minimizing contact area and pressure on the cymbal to allow it to ring freely. You'd think the ultimate in sound would be to levitate the cymbal, so it touched nothing at all. Since that's impossible, the next best thing would be lighter hardware that has minimal contact.

On the other hand, maybe heavier hardware absorbs less vibration because its greater mass makes it harder to move, and therefore more energy stays in the cymbal. Maybe a lighter stand absorbs more energy, allowing it to leave the cymbal and reducing its sound.

If you could levitate a cymbal, no energy would be able to leave it except by dissipating from the cymbal itself, so that would be the ultimate in sound. There is only so much energy a suspending wire could absorb so that might also improve the cymbal sound, compared to mounting, although suspending cymbals is not very practical. Suspending cymbals was done a lot in pre-WWII sets.
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  #9  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
If there are aluminum stands out there that don't use steel inserts for the threaded apps (are there any?), not a problem, upgrade them to steel inserts.

So, the route to go is- use your existing stands and replace the steel tubes with T6 pipe. Canopus is doing this, their Hybrid is aluminum tubes. You may have to use bolts instead of rivets, but who cares!

The heavier the stand, the better the cymbal sounds... I found this out in the studio, try it if you get the chance.
I remember in the '90s when Gibraltar came out with an all aluminum stand. I sent the press release to one of our salesmen to see if we could snag some of that business, but apparently it never panned out. If Gibraltar would have used the steel inserts that would have probably helped them.

I subbed at a church this past weekend and took my cymbals. They still sound exactly the same as they do on my stands at home. He has some very nice heavy DW stands. In a recording studio, I would think that the sound differences would be noticeable, but in a live situation, I doubt that the difference would hardly be noticeable.

I wonder if you suspended a cymbal upsidedown off of a boom stand if it would make a difference?
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  #10  
Old 07-21-2009, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumr0 View Post
I remember in the '90s when Gibraltar came out with an all aluminum stand. I sent the press release to one of our salesmen to see if we could snag some of that business, but apparently it never panned out. If Gibraltar would have used the steel inserts that would have probably helped them.

I subbed at a church this past weekend and took my cymbals. They still sound exactly the same as they do on my stands at home. He has some very nice heavy DW stands. In a recording studio, I would think that the sound differences would be noticeable, but in a live situation, I doubt that the difference would hardly be noticeable.

I wonder if you suspended a cymbal upsidedown off of a boom stand if it would make a difference?
Heavier stands in the studio, light stands on for travel, makes perfect sense. Cymbal vibrating, stand vibrating= opposing vibrational forces.

In the case of drums, vibrating shell means more sound, or at least that's what drum manufactures are telling you.
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  #11  
Old 07-21-2009, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Canopus "Hybrid" Lightweight Throne

i think a heavier stand probably does sound better because it vibrates less with the cymbal so it doesn't "colour" the sound as much.
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