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  #1  
Old 05-13-2009, 10:30 PM
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Default Pedal Questions

I have three questions about pedals.

1. What in your opinion is better, the Pearl Demon Drive or the Trick Pro 1-V? Which pedal is more smooth, adjustable (and not take 20-30 minutes to adjust it), and has better quality parts (such as springs, beater etc.).

2. What are the differences and feel between a direct drive pedal and a chain drive pedal? As in the DW 9000 or the Trick (and Demon Drive).

3. Should I start with a lower-end pedal such as the Tama Iron Cobra, DW 5000, Pearl eliminator or should I get a top of the line pedal that will hopefully never break?
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Last edited by Sparkman; 05-13-2009 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkman View Post
I have three questions about pedals.

1. What in your opinion is better, the Pearl Demon Drive or the Trick Pro 1-V? Which pedal is ore smooth, adjustable (and not take 20-30 to adjust it), and has better quality parts (such as springs, beater etc.).

2. What are the differences and feel between a direct drive pedal and a chain drive pedal? As in the DW 9000 or the Trick (and Demon Drive).

3. Should I start with a lower end pedal such as the Tama Iron Cobra, DW 5000, Pearl eliminator or should I get a top of the line pedal that will hopefully never break?
None of the pedals you listed are "low-end". On the contrary, they're all very much high-end, regardless of the differences in price.

In regards to the direct-drive vs. traditional (i.e. chain) pedal, this is definitely something you should evaluate for yourself at a music store.

I've been playing a DW 5000 AD3 for 2 yrs. now and recently drive the Demon Drive. I hated it, I returned it to the store the next day.

You never know until you try them out yourself.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Me personally, I LOVE the Trick Pro 1-V. I just like the feel. That's the only way you can find the pedal that's right for you. You'll notice that everyone here uses different pedals and has differing opinions on which pedal is best. Slap em on a drum at a store and try 'em out. I had to drive 2 hours away to try a trick before I would buy one.
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Mate, get the best pedal you can afford. I bought my DW's (pedal & hat stand) way before I got my DW tubs... These babies last forever, and spares are widely available.
Choose well & enjoy!!
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  #5  
Old 05-14-2009, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkman View Post
1. What in your opinion is better, the Pearl Demon Drive or the Trick Pro 1-V?
3. Should I start with a lower-end pedal such as the Tama Iron Cobra, DW 5000, Pearl eliminator or should I get a top of the line pedal that will hopefully never break?
Having owned the Pro1-v, DW9000 & DW5000, Eliminator and Iron Cobra (and playing a bit with several Demon configurations at NAMM) my list in order of preference goes:

Trick
Pearl Demon
DW9000

(they're all great pedals...)

And I'm pretty equal on the Eliminator, Iron Cobra and DW5000, which are also excellent pedals in their price range.

Bermuda
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

The Iron Cobra is a great mid priced pedal. I've been playing one for two years now. I don't notice any advantage as far as direct drive vs chain drive. I play both types. I have been playing for many years and I have owned only four pedals. They have all been durable. I still have three out of the four. I still play all three of them from time to time.
I believe that any mid priced pedal is of good enough quality to get the job done and last for many years. I have tried many high priced pedals over the years. I have never bought one. I simply never noticed any difference that made me want to spend the extra cash. Try different pedals and choose one that works for you. If you find a mid range pedal or a premium priced pedal that you like, Buy it! Consider your budget when making your decision. You may be able to find a mid priced pedal that suits your needs just as well as a high priced one.
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Having owned the Pro1-v, DW9000 & DW5000, Eliminator and Iron Cobra (and playing a bit with several Demon configurations at NAMM) my list in order of preference goes:

Trick
Pearl Demon
DW9000
Did you like the direct drive better than the chain drive or is it equally the same?

I like the turbo configuration of the DWs (and maybe add a little more resistance), can the Tricks get like that without much effort, or do direct drives not work like that?

I like the colorfulness of the DWs better, so I'm kinda of leaning toward the DW, but I'm not sure what to get.
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:18 AM
Swol335i Swol335i is offline
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkman View Post
I have three questions about pedals.

1. What in your opinion is better, the Pearl Demon Drive or the Trick Pro 1-V? Which pedal is more smooth, adjustable (and not take 20-30 minutes to adjust it), and has better quality parts (such as springs, beater etc.).

2. What are the differences and feel between a direct drive pedal and a chain drive pedal? As in the DW 9000 or the Trick (and Demon Drive).

3. Should I start with a lower-end pedal such as the Tama Iron Cobra, DW 5000, Pearl eliminator or should I get a top of the line pedal that will hopefully never break?
1. I've tried both and I wound up getting the Trick (WHICH I LOVE!!!) but it's still personal preference. Always try before you buy.

2. A direct drive pedal has a 1:1 ratio of input to output where as the chain can give up slack if you're not careful. They have totally different feels though and some prefer one over the other. I like both for different reasons (I have a Trick Bigfoot double and Iron Cobra double).

3. If you can afford a top of the line pedal and you are sure you will stick with it then I say "why not?". I'm pretty sure I could run my Tricks over with a Tractor Trailer and it wouldn't have a scratch LOL.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swol335i View Post
1. I've tried both and I wound up getting the Trick (WHICH I LOVE!!!) but it's still personal preference. Always try before you buy.

2. A direct drive pedal has a 1:1 ratio of input to output where as the chain can give up slack if you're not careful. They have totally different feels though and some prefer one over the other. I like both for different reasons (I have a Trick Bigfoot double and Iron Cobra double).

3. If you can afford a top of the line pedal and you are sure you will stick with it then I say "why not?". I'm pretty sure I could run my Tricks over with a Tractor Trailer and it wouldn't have a scratch LOL.
I have checked the trick website and it appears that there isn't a trick dealer in my state and it will take over four hours to get to the nearest place that may sell the trick pedal. The guitar center near me doesn't have it in stock. Although so far in this thread people have said that I should get the trick over the demon drive. I know the guitar center near me has the demon drive and the DW 9000 in stock or at least set up on a kit. I could try both pedals out and see which one I like better, and if I like the demon drive better than the DW, I could then order the trick online. Whatever pedal I like, I'll probably order it from Musician's Friend, if I don't like it I have 45 days to return it. I checked their policy
and drum pedals can be returned.

When you say that it has a 1:1 ratio does it mean that if I hit the pedal with my foot it will always hit the bass drum, while if a chain on a chain drive had slack it won't hit the drum?

I never said this in my original post, but I'm planning on getting a single pedal first, and if I ever get interested in double pedal, the tricks have a double conversion kit while the demon drive and DW 9000 don't, so I like that feature.
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Last edited by Sparkman; 05-15-2009 at 03:20 AM.
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  #10  
Old 05-15-2009, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

When you say that it has a 1:1 ratio does it mean that if I hit the pedal with my foot it will always hit the bass drum, while if a chain on a chain drive had slack it won't hit the drum?

That's the fallacy in the chain drive argument. The chain never has slack, it has side-to-side movement. Chains can have front to back movement depending on the tightness of the rear foot board hinge. Direct links do not move side to side, nor forward to back.

When you depress the foot board, the chain is tight. When the spring returns the foot board, the chain is tight. The foot board cannot return faster than the chain. There's no scenario where this happens when using the foot to depress the foot board.

The shape of the cam the chain rides on/in determines the feel of the pedal. Chains and strap drive pedals have side to side movement.

If a chain drive pedal produced slack like everyone is claiming, they would be unplayable and no one would play a chain drive pedal, they wouldn't exist.
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  #11  
Old 05-15-2009, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
The chain never has slack, it has side-to-side movement. Chains can have front to back movement depending on the tightness of the rear foot board hinge. Direct links do not move side to side, nor forward to back.
Is side-to-side and front to back movement something I would want? Is that a good thing about direct drives?
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkman View Post
Is side-to-side and front to back movement something I would want? Is that a good thing about direct drives?
Its that 4 letter word.

Abraham Lincoln said it best:

"People don't remember what you give them, they don't remember what you do for them, they remember how you make them feel".

Big mistake, letting people influence your feelings. It needs to come from you, since you don't even know what you want. Got try them yourself, experience the difference, the only way you'll find it.
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Old 05-16-2009, 04:25 PM
Swol335i Swol335i is offline
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
When you say that it has a 1:1 ratio does it mean that if I hit the pedal with my foot it will always hit the bass drum, while if a chain on a chain drive had slack it won't hit the drum?

That's the fallacy in the chain drive argument. The chain never has slack, it has side-to-side movement. Chains can have front to back movement depending on the tightness of the rear foot board hinge. Direct links do not move side to side, nor forward to back.

When you depress the foot board, the chain is tight. When the spring returns the foot board, the chain is tight. The foot board cannot return faster than the chain. There's no scenario where this happens when using the foot to depress the foot board.

The shape of the cam the chain rides on/in determines the feel of the pedal. Chains and strap drive pedals have side to side movement.

If a chain drive pedal produced slack like everyone is claiming, they would be unplayable and no one would play a chain drive pedal, they wouldn't exist.
With all due respect I have to disagree. I own a chain and direct. Lift the chain foot board up and the beater will not move. Lift the direct drive up and the beater moves back. This is most definitely slack. If you are going fast with your feet, the board has a chance to get behind your foot more so than the direct drive.

Just look at what all the metal players use. 99% of the time it's a direct drive pedal for this very reason.

Of course, with proper technique this may not be the case but even so, take the same technique and apply it on a direct drive pedal and you will see an improvement.

Like everything however, it's always personal preference.
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Old 05-16-2009, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

My Taye pedal, XP-1 is double chain and has no slack going down of course and it only rides a small bit on return, and I have watched to see that there is no slack in the chain. Part of the reason for that is my foot is always on it. If I pushed it down, and quickly took my foot off it may slack, but that's not a realistic scenario.
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Old 05-16-2009, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkman View Post
I have three questions about pedals.

1. What in your opinion is better, the Pearl Demon Drive or the Trick Pro 1-V? Which pedal is more smooth, adjustable (and not take 20-30 minutes to adjust it), and has better quality parts (such as springs, beater etc.).

2. What are the differences and feel between a direct drive pedal and a chain drive pedal? As in the DW 9000 or the Trick (and Demon Drive).

3. Should I start with a lower-end pedal such as the Tama Iron Cobra, DW 5000, Pearl eliminator or should I get a top of the line pedal that will hopefully never break?
ANSWERS

1. While the two pedals are very similar in looks and features, the springs create the biggest difference; the Demon Drive utilizes a conventional tension spring, as found on all Iron Cobras, Eliminators, etc., while the Tricks use compression spring technology not seen since the Ludwig Speed King and Ghost. The Demon Drive would be easier to get used to, if you're used to playing a tension spring pedal, but the Trick, although it would take a while to get accustomed to it, has a cleaner, more streamlined look to it.


2. Direct Drive Advantages

No lag
Very durable
Little or no maintenance required

Direct Drive Disadvantages

Little adjustability (on Trick pedals, this is not an issue, i.e. stroke adjustment cluster)
Very mechanical feeling

Chain Drive Advantages

Very little lag
Usually quite durable (more so than a strap drive)
In most cases, adjustable

Chain Drive Disadvantages

Need to clean fairly regularly
Can make unwanted noise


3. Iron Cobras, 5000s, and Eliminators are already top of the line pedals as it is; Trick, Axis, and Demon Drive are above top of the line, almost to the point of lavishness. In terms of durability, I would say that all pedals above $300 can last a lifetime with proper care.

Also, considering how pedals are like sticks for your feet, and sticks usually cost around $7-$12 a pair, I would consider $300+ a pretty steep price already, let alone $600+ for Demon Drives, Axis, or Trick.

I would say, depending on your style of music, give the Iron Cobras, Eliminators, DW 5000s, and Yamaha Flying Dragons a try at your music store, because who knows? You may prefer a chain drive over direct drive. And if not, go for the Tricks or Demon Drives, whatever feels best for you.


Phew. Hope that helps!
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Old 05-16-2009, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

I own a chain and direct. Lift the chain foot board up and the beater will not move. Lift the direct drive up and the beater moves back. This is most definitely slack. If you are going fast with your feet, the board has a chance to get behind your foot more so than the direct drive.-Swol335i

The foot board cannot return faster than the chain.-Les Ismore

Once its in its lowest position, the foot board cannot rise without the chain, and the chain needs to be tight to make this happen. If the foot board 'gets behind' your foot, its b/c your over-playing the spring. Over-playing can easily happen with a direct drive pedal as well.

The only instance where slack could happen is at the end of the return stroke, when the beater starts forward again- foot board inertia. You can get this to happen by pulling the beater back with your hand then letting go, but nobody plays this way with their feet, they couldn't.

Direct drive, chain, strap, it doesn't matter, you don't start the foot-stroke after the beater's in forward motion, the foot stroke puts the beater into forward motion.

Here's a good example of pedal mechanics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYv47y1ZA24. This pedal (Gibraltar Catapult) should be a disaster according to the 'slack theory'.

Its foot board is not even connected to the beater. You could again pull the beater back, let it go and (having enough spring tension) the foot board can literally 'separate' from the beater assembly ('slack', lag etc.) with a faster forward motion. This is not reality when playing with feet, as the foot is the cause of forward motion, not the spring.

Last edited by Les Ismore; 05-17-2009 at 12:24 AM. Reason: Gibby ad
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Old 05-17-2009, 06:56 AM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

Another direct drive pedal not mentioned is the Speed King. You may want to check it out. I played one years ago and remember it to be a pretty cool pedal. I just picked up one off Ebay but it's not here yet. I think I payed maybe $65 + shipping like $77 total. I got an old one from the 60's but it looks to be in great shape. I really want to get another pedal as well like the Iron Cobra or maybe Gibralter. Since I'm not certain which I'll like better I decided to go with 2 cheaper models rather than one very expensive one.
Just another option.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Pedal Questions

What I am about to say may be technical so I am trying to choose words that are not. I apologize ahead of time if I am writing at a level above or below the audience.

The direct drive has two bearings that link the beater cam to the foot board. I am calling a pin, and hole, or a sleeve and a pressed in bearing, a bearing. The chain drive has as many bearings as there are links in the chain. The bearing is whenever there are two parts that are sliding or rotating on each other.

When you first want to move an object you encounter something called friction. Friction comes in two flavors; Static, and Dynamic friction. The Static friction occurs when you start moving an object and then once it breaks free it shifts to Dynamic friction. Static friction is much higher then Dynamic Friction. Even though you are moving the whole pedal downward, parts of the chain are not rotating all the time throughout the stroke of the pedal. Because some of the links are not rotating, they start to rotate and they will encounter the Static friction first and then change to the Dynamic friction. With more links in the chain there would be more Static friction to overcome.

If any of you has had to push a car when it ran out of gas (I know there has to be a few musicians too poor to fill the tank up all the time), you would notice that the car at first is very hard to push, but when the car gets moving, the car is easier to move. With the direct drive pedals, you have less Static friction to overcome.

Besides the friction of the chain drive, the slack in the chain has been address below. However, I have another comment on the ability of some drummers to overcome the slack in the chain, and that would be their own ability to time the slack in such a way where it would not be encountered. If the individual were to make some very sudden explosive moves on the chain drive pedal, they would see the slack that the chain gives. The footboard would be going in one direction while the beater would be going in the other direction.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by evolving_machine View Post
........However, I have another comment on the ability of some drummers to overcome the slack in the chain, and that would be their own ability to time the slack in such a way where it would not be encountered. If the individual were to make some very sudden explosive moves on the chain drive pedal, they would see the slack that the chain gives. The footboard would be going in one direction while the beater would be going in the other direction.
Friction is another subject entirely. In a perfect world, the chain on a pedal does have more 'friction-points' (and if we add-up all the bearing contact points on a direct drive, that # gets smaller). This does not necessarily mean chains have 'more friction' though.

Without getting too much into 'friction', reality is... a poorly maintained direct drive pedal can have as much, or even more friction than a chain drive pedal.

As far as an individual making an 'explosive move', you'll need to clarify.

There is no scenario where the beater is moving forward while the foot board is moving upward, it doesn't happen while playing pedals with your feet. Its not 'playing reality'. Makes sense in your mind, but its not reality, no one does, or even could play that way.

A players foot put's the beater in forward motion, not the spring.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
Friction is another subject entirely. In a perfect world, the chain on a pedal does have more 'friction-points' (and if we add-up all the bearing contact points on a direct drive, that # gets smaller). This does not necessarily mean chains have 'more friction' though.

Without getting too much into 'friction', reality is... a poorly maintained direct drive pedal can have as much, or even more friction than a chain drive pedal.

As far as an individual making an 'explosive move', you'll need to clarify.

There is no scenario where the beater is moving forward while the foot board is moving upward, it doesn't happen while playing pedals with your feet. Its not 'playing reality'. Makes sense in your mind, but its not reality, no one does, or even could play that way.

A players foot put's the beater in forward motion, not the spring.
"Perfect world?" No this is not a "Perfect World" but using Newtonian physics is a simple way to model the effects of forces, friction, statics and dynamics. Many older pedals that were direct drive used steel pins pressed into aluminum parts that wore very fast because the coefficient of friction of aluminum to steel is much higher then steel to steel. What you are observing on an older pedal are not dust mites, but again "friction." The newer direct drive pedals are not using steel on aluminum.

There are three things moving the beater back to the rest position, the spring, the bounce off of the bass drum head, and if you have a larger foot, you balance the foot board and can pull it upward. You can get a nice rhythm utilizing the bounce off of the head in a sequence with the spring. However, if your foot is large enough, you will be able to rock the foot board outside of this rhythm pattern of the beater and the spring. If you do have a large enough foot, it is sometimes difficult to not rock the foot board upward. Rocking the foot board is the clutching, the stall, the weakness of the chain drive pedals.
However, if you have a small foot, you many not be aware of this stall.
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:45 AM
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The newer direct drive pedals are not using steel on aluminum

You haven't played the 'newer' direct drive pedals have you? We understand, its not like every shop has them, but couple models do have steel pins against aluminum, just like the days of yore.

Look, in all fairness, it sounds to me like a MacBook Pro might have fallen on your head. When you depress a bass drum pedals foot board (and it doesn't matter where, or with what- heel, toes, arch, side of you foot), the foot board will always move downward☟

You cannot step on a pedal foot board (anywhere) and cause it to make an upward motion. Unlike an apple, a pedal foot board (a third class lever) is always connected to something when its in motion (being played). In order to set the foot board in an upward motion with your feet, you'd need to get your foot underneath it, which we all know isn't how a bass drum pedal is played.

..if your foot is large enough, you will be able to rock the foot board outside of this rhythm pattern of the beater and the spring.

I'll interpret this as your 'explosive move' explanation, though it does sound like a case of 'watching a little too much Sponge Bob Square Pants'. Actually what you described could happen... underwater.


Size needed for 'rocking' a foot board? Smaller 'is' better. Remember the standard foot board is 10" and currently, long boards are 12"
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:04 PM
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Look, in all fairness, it sounds to me like a MacBook Pro might have fallen on your head ... it does sound like a case of 'watching a little too much Sponge Bob Square Pants'. Actually what you described could happen... underwater.
My friend, if you think that you can participate in a conversation without being insulting, then I invite you to do so. Otherwise please take your personal remarks elsewhere.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:36 PM
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Man, this is getting tough to stand....I don't think Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa ever argued whether Direct Drive is better than Chain Drive.

Kiss and make up or something. I see double peddlers using chain, direct, strap, etc. drive pedals and they all seem to do just fine while playing. In other words...IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL!!!

TRY THE PEDAL OUT FOR YOURSELF AND DECIDE YOURSELF! I DON'T SEE EVERYONE USING THE SAME BRAND/LINE OF DRUMS OR THE SAME HEADS OR THE SAME CYMBALS OR EVEN THE SAME TECHNIQUE FOR THAT MATTER SO WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF SOMEONE PREFERS DIRECT DRIVE OVER CHAIN OR VICE VERSA???
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:52 AM
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My friend, if you think that you can participate in a conversation without being insulting, then I invite you to do so. Otherwise please take your personal remarks elsewhere.

Got it!

There's no excuse, I agreed to the rules of this forum, and I made a mistake. 'evolving_machine' did not need to be used as the fulcrum of my little jokes.

I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by my actions.
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