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  #1  
Old 04-30-2009, 08:36 PM
mattsnoise mattsnoise is offline
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Default Solving overtones on toms

I have three toms of sizes 8, 10 and 14" and all of them have very ringy overtones to them when I hit them. I currently have Remo Pinstripe skins on the top sides and on the bottom are still the Yamaha skins the kit came with. Is there anything I can do to solve this - I don't know whether to try skins like Evans Hydraulic or a Coated skin or some description, or to try things like taping tissues inside the toms to absorb some of the overtones...

basically - any ideas or tips anyone..?????
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  #2  
Old 04-30-2009, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Moon Gel would be the first suggestion. remO's are plastic rings that sit on your toms. They are a little too much for some players. It all depends on your playing situation.
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  #3  
Old 04-30-2009, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

The stock reso's tend to be diplomat weight. I would try replacing the reso heads with ambassador weight heads to start with
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Old 04-30-2009, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Solving overtones?
I'll keep my opinions to myself, everyone is entitled to make their drums sound however they want.
If you don't want the overtones, use moongels, available online or in music stores.
Hydraulic heads are excellent overtone killers as well.
Hydraulics with moongels will really kill the overtones.
Hydraulics top and bottom with moongels top and bottom will produce an even deader sound.
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Old 04-30-2009, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Have you done any tuning to the reso heads? I have learned that the batter head once tuned can still sound terrible if the reso heads aren't tuned properly. start with the reso and work from there.
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  #6  
Old 04-30-2009, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Very common- problem= sure we have all had this one more than once!
I find the best thing to help that is to tune the reso head to the same sound or note as the batter head- this cancels our the vibration frequencys that are the overtones- BUt I have to say overtones can be nice- in a hall for example they help your drums project and sing- in a confined space however- like the average room we practice in at home- they can sound way too much!
Also-the drummers hearing of the drums being played is often a lot differant to what is heard out front- try having a mate hit your drums the way you would- and go and listen b4 a gig from the front.

I used to make the mikstake of tuning at home- but when I went to a gig the drums were always dead....it can channge also from place to place depending on whats around to reflect the sound or absorb it.

try that start with both heads the same and then try the reso a pitch lower- you will find that sweet spot in the end!
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  #7  
Old 04-30-2009, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Pinstripes are nothing more than an overrated 2 ply head. To really control overtones, you need a self muted head like a powerstroke. These will shorten the sustain much more than pinstripes but are more open than placing o-rings. O-rings cut all the overtones but you still need some overtones, just not the annoying high ones. You can also try a coated head. Coating further cuts overtones but sharpens stick attack.
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  #8  
Old 04-30-2009, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

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Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
Pinstripes are nothing more than an overrated 2 ply head. To really control overtones, you need a self muted head like a powerstroke. These will shorten the sustain much more than pinstripes but are more open than placing o-rings. O-rings cut all the overtones but you still need some overtones, just not the annoying high ones. You can also try a coated head. Coating further cuts overtones but sharpens stick attack.
There is so much wrong in this post that I don't know where to begin.
1. Powerstrokes are 2 plies around the edges and one ply in the middle. this functions as a built in O ring (it's a little different because it vibrates with the head)
2. Pinstripes are two plies that are glued together at the edges. this is different than an ordinary two ply head
3. Clear heads have a sharper attack, not coated heads.

Powerstroke 3 heads are very much like a one ply version of pinstripes.
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Last edited by wloeb; 04-30-2009 at 11:40 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-01-2009, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

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Originally Posted by wloeb View Post
There is so much wrong in this post that I don't know where to begin.
1. Powerstrokes are 2 plies around the edges and one ply in the middle. this functions as a built in O ring (it's a little different because it vibrates with the head)
2. Pinstripes are two plies that are glued together at the edges. this is different than an ordinary two ply head
3. Clear heads have a sharper attack, not coated heads.

Powerstroke 3 heads are very much like a one ply version of pinstripes.
Took the words out of my mouth. Brilliant.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

I'll side w/ the folks that are telling you to "tune your drums better". Drums sound horrible and ringy, with conflicting overtones if they are not tuned properly. Spend some time learning to tune them well and try several different approaches, instead of spending more money on crappy, muted heads.

Bob Gatzen has a ton of really great tuning tutorials on YouTube. Go for it!
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  #11  
Old 05-01-2009, 12:58 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

I use the tuning method, which is described in this thread, starting with post #69:

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...?t=6029&page=2

But cranking the reso heads to a major third higher in pitch than the batter does wonders (if you tune your 16x16 to a C on the batter side, tune the reso to an A), and sounds unbelievably good, as a difference of major thirds creates a harmonic situation, and the resonance is very nice, even though cranking bottom heads a turn and a half or more over the batters makes you think it will choke the drum.

If you still get too much ring, just use Moon Gel sparingly.
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2009, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

"Solving" overtones on the toms? Yeah, I'd also like to solve that annoying "snap" sound that comes from my snare when I hit it.

If by overtones you mean there is a "warbling" sound that comes from conflicting overtones, then tuning both heads together properly should solve that. If you mean your toms sustain too long, then you can use moongel or tape for that.
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2009, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Don't forget to avoid the phase cancellation aka the comb filtering effect when the two heads are tuned in such a relationship that certain major frequencies cancel each other out. Drum tuning is way harder than guitar tuning, it's a real science, so learn as much as you can about it, and you too will have beautiful sounding happy responsive toms instead of a weighted down lifeless 70's sound...unless that's what you're aiming for of course. A beautifully tuned tom...struck with purpose by a knowing hand.... vibrating and exuding all those wonderful clear ringy woody frequencies....so does it for me....
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

the heads are fine, you shouldn't be getting overtones with pins.
Learn how to tune, and your problem will go away.
There is no other way to put it, if you want good sounding drums you must learn the art of tuning drums.
Moon gels and all the other gimmicks are just band aid solutions at best.
Either you get it now or 15 years from now. You'll end up here again and again if you don't learn how to tune. If you live in Toronto I can help.
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2009, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Thanks for the help everyone, and thanks for the offer but I live in the UK sad to relate, youtube will have to do for me. Sounds like a just need to learn to tune them properly - I will correct myself and say that when I play with the band in a large room in a hall it does sound better because you can still hear them over the other noise from the amps, but they still ring a lot, i don't know whether it's just the sustain or the overtones not quite coming together from either ends of the drums.

.... and sorry to sound like I know nothing about it but why else would I be here - what's the difference between resonant and batter heads and which is which for me? Thanks.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Batter is the one you hit. Reso is the one you don't.

Replace the resos. Most stock heads (other than what comes on high-end kits) are poor quality and hard to tune. Put some clear Ambassadors or clear G1s on there.

And--practice your tuning. Pins are among the least ringy heads available, so you ought not be getting loud overtones from them. (FYI, if you become a good tuner, you won't get obnoxious overtones from any head.)

If you're new to tuning these vids are pretty good:

Tuning toms

Tuning snares

Tuning bass drums

Why reso heads are important

Reducing snare buzz part 1 and part 2.

A good alternative is to take a couple of lessons from a drummer who can tune.
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  #17  
Old 05-01-2009, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Are there any particular reso's that you should look for to help shorten the sustain and provide overtones that don't clash or will just any better heads make a difference?
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  #18  
Old 05-01-2009, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

For reso heads, (short for resonant) clear Remo Ambassadors are the industry standard as are Evans clear G1's, both single ply 10 mil heads. Remo clear Diplomats are single ply 7.5 mil film and will offer shorter sustain. (the thinner the head, the less time it vibrates). Coated Diplomats will give a marginally warmer sound with the shorter sustain than a 10 mil reso head. Longer sustain can be had with Evans GPluses as reso's, a single ply 12 mil head. You may even want to try Evans G2's (a 2 ply head, 14 mils total) on bottom. You would have long sustain, but it may be less ringy, thicker sounding. Or use Evans special resonant heads which have an overtone control ring. Lotsa choices. Id suggest buying a drum dial and learning how to use it, it is an excellent tuning aid. Bring the drum up to tension a little at a time rather than crank a lug 3 turns. I use about 1/6 of a turn per lug only (after finger tight) and the goal is to tighten as gradually and evenly as possible. Start with the suggested tensions and adjust to your sound, tighter or looser. Tighter will carry better unmiced and sound better in the audience than onstage, looser will sound better onstage but dead in the audience unmiced.
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Hey Matt,

Something that has been mentioned is the sound of your kit will be different when sitting behind it as opposed to being in the audience.

You'll find that what you may perceive as the perfect sound from behind the kit isn't nearly as perfect when you're in front.

You need train your ear to understand the relationship to between what you hear behind the kit and to what it will sound like in front of it. Stand in front of your drums and have some else hit them to learn those relative sounds.

Another thing you can do, is talk to a drummer(s) who you dig. Ask him if you can listen to his drums from both positions and ask how he tunes.

The more questions you ask, and the more you mess with your drums, the better you will become at getting the sound you'd want to hear if you were in the audience.

Your tastes will change over time as will your bandmates'. Learn, learn, learn.....

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Old 05-01-2009, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Also drums tuned beautifully in one room can sound like poo in another room. Standing waves, sound reflecting or sound absoring surfaces in the room, phase cancellation, comb filtering, drumhead choice, ceiling height, who knows even humidity, and many other things all factor in. In a Guitar Center, when you hit a drum, every drum in the general vicinity is subtly adding to the sound with sympathetic vibrations. Not the best place to evaluate a drums sound. A basic understanding of acoustics is helpful when trying to acheive great drum sounds. Guitar players have it easy. Just another unsung thing that goes into a great sounding drum performance, the drummers tuning ability. What is needed is a room frequency analyzer that talks to wireless motorized lugs that tune your drums automatically to compensate for different and changing room acoustics. I'll get right on that one.
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  #21  
Old 05-01-2009, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Also drums tuned beautifully in one room can sound like poo in another room. Standing waves, sound reflecting or sound absoring surfaces in the room, phase cancellation, comb filtering, drumhead choice, ceiling height, who knows even humidity, and many other things all factor in. In a Guitar Center, when you hit a drum, every drum in the general vicinity is subtly adding to the sound with sympathetic vibrations. Not the best place to evaluate a drums sound. A basic understanding of acoustics is helpful when trying to acheive great drum sounds. Guitar players have it easy. Just another unsung thing that goes into a great sounding drum performance, the drummers tuning ability. What is needed is a room frequency analyzer that talks to wireless motorized lugs that tune your drums automatically to compensate for different and changing room acoustics. I'll get right on that one.
100 % true.. This isn't mentioned enough sometimes. I have those heavy blue moving blankets lining the room from floor to ceiling in my basement where my sons drums are set up. This isn't soundproofing but without them every hit on any drum sounds like a gunshot. It's entertaining for a song or so but that's it. With the blankets up, all you hear is the sound of the drum. Big big big difference to actually hear the sound of a drum and NOT the drum and the concrete room. I never have a problem tuning anything down there... it's so easy to hear a clean pitch with no room reflections.. The only drum that gives me any agony is this steel Tama picilo that I bought him for his bday a few years ago. Sorry to say that thing just simply looks better than it sounds.
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Old 05-01-2009, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumtechdad View Post
Batter is the one you hit. Reso is the one you don't.

Replace the resos. Most stock heads (other than what comes on high-end kits) are poor quality and hard to tune. Put some clear Ambassadors or clear G1s on there.

And--practice your tuning. Pins are among the least ringy heads available, so you ought not be getting loud overtones from them. (FYI, if you become a good tuner, you won't get obnoxious overtones from any head.)

If you're new to tuning these vids are pretty good:

Tuning toms

Tuning snares

Tuning bass drums

Why reso heads are important

Reducing snare buzz part 1 and part 2.

A good alternative is to take a couple of lessons from a drummer who can tune.
These videos are a great tool for anyone. I think these would be a lot easier for a beginner to follw than that so called drum tuning bible.
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  #23  
Old 05-02-2009, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by wloeb View Post
There is so much wrong in this post that I don't know where to begin.
1. Powerstrokes are 2 plies around the edges and one ply in the middle. this functions as a built in O ring (it's a little different because it vibrates with the head)
2. Pinstripes are two plies that are glued together at the edges. this is different than an ordinary two ply head
3. Clear heads have a sharper attack, not coated heads.

Powerstroke 3 heads are very much like a one ply version of pinstripes.
There is so much wrong in your reply I wonder if you know what you re talking about.

1. Try a PS and an amb with remo ring and you ll hear the differemce. Obviously, you re talking about something you ve never tried out.

2. Cut pinstripes in two and you ll see they re NOT glued. They were in the distant past but not anymore.

3. Clear heads have a wet attack and high overtones, coated has shapr attack, like hitting sandpaper, but mellow overtones.
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  #24  
Old 05-03-2009, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

evans e-rings will do the job..
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  #25  
Old 05-03-2009, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

I've got three kit's sitting right here.
One with clear pinstripes
One with clear ambassadors
One with coated ambassadors.

I have tried it and and think that I know what I'm talking about and I have 25 years experience playing these heads. How about you?

Wayne

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
There is so much wrong in your reply I wonder if you know what you re talking about.

1. Try a PS and an amb with remo ring and you ll hear the differemce. Obviously, you re talking about something you ve never tried out.

2. Cut pinstripes in two and you ll see they re NOT glued. They were in the distant past but not anymore.

3. Clear heads have a wet attack and high overtones, coated has shapr attack, like hitting sandpaper, but mellow overtones.
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by wloeb View Post
I've got three kit's sitting right here.
One with clear pinstripes
One with clear ambassadors
One with coated ambassadors.

I have tried it and and think that I know what I'm talking about and I have 25 years experience playing these heads. How about you?

Wayne
I don t see any powerstroke or o ring on any of your kits.

Fact is that a seperate ring muffles much more than a powerstroke. I expereinced that after switching from pinstripes, ambs, G2s to powerstroke. Amb plus o ring does not equal powerstroke at all. Maybe you should check the thickness of the rings, I m quite sure the o ring is much thicker than the flimsy ring of a powerstroke. From the top of my head it s10 mil vs 3 mil.
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Old 05-04-2009, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

This thread inspired me to make some recordings of different heads on the same drums; the first of which is here:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=49663

can you tell what kind of head it is?

Wayne
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Have you done any tuning to the reso heads? I have learned that the batter head once tuned can still sound terrible if the reso heads aren't tuned properly. start with the reso and work from there.
I would also view this as a tuning issue. Use www.tightscrew.com to keep heads from detuning also, because tuning is a real pain.

Also use thicker heads. I do not advocating stuffing furniture (pillows, etc.) in any drum, including the bass drum. That just kills the sound.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by wloeb View Post
This thread inspired me to make some recordings of different heads on the same drums; the first of which is here:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=49663

can you tell what kind of head it is?

Wayne
The heads were Clear Pinstripes.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Hydraulics top and bottom with moongels top and bottom will produce an even deader sound.
Steely Dan - Aja. This track had the Hydraulics on the toms.



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Old 05-14-2009, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: Solving overtones on toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadJazz View Post
Pinstripes are nothing more than an overrated 2 ply head. .
I have heard these sound quite good - and from in front of the kit with a plexiglass shield seperating them from me. I can understand why some engineers like them.


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