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  #1  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:57 AM
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Default Tony Williams

Tony in my opinion is by far the best jazz drummer who ever lived....
although many people may say that "yes he was good but he wasnt the best there was".....i can see what your saying but for me he was the best

people like evlin jones and art bakely would be seen as masters...but "especially in elvins case" i just couldnt get a grip on hios seeamingly random playing....
it was so skillful and it was in time but he did so many mini solo's and fills that it was impossible to keep up!

tony's music just seemed to make sense......i really can't find the words to describe it....he was almost able to explain what he was doing while playing the actual piece....he was brilliant at what he did..
does anyone else have any comments on him??

R.I.P Tony
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:11 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

A few people have commented before: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...=tony+williams
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  #3  
Old 01-16-2009, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

Tony is one of my all time favorites always has been but so have Elvin and Art too by the way.

Sounds to me like you need more time to get and understand Elvin from a jazz related conceptual point of view to get a better handle on what's going on in the context of the music and Elvin's contribution to it. Nothing random about Elvin's playing since his musical intent was very clear. Just a matter of understanding the deep concept{s} behind it
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  #4  
Old 01-16-2009, 04:19 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

Just picked up the new issue of Traps magazine with "The Incomporable Tony Williams" on the cover.
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  #5  
Old 01-16-2009, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosphorus View Post
can see what your saying but for me he was the best
I don't really know what best means in music, but people seem to have a need to place great musicians in some kind of sequential histological perspective .

Tony Williams was a game changer. He took from what came before him and changed some of it forever, and then passed it on. The is the hallmark of greatness in my opinion. He was a great player. As was Elvin, and as is Jack DeJohnette.
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  #6  
Old 01-16-2009, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Tony is one of my all time favorites always has been but so have Elvin and Art too by the way.

Sounds to me like you need more time to get and understand Elvin from a jazz related conceptual point of view to get a better handle on what's going on in the context of the music and Elvin's contribution to it. Nothing random about Elvin's playing since his musical intent was very clear. Just a matter of understanding the deep concept{s} behind it
i spose ill get it after a while....im only 16 so....i do see that elvin is class
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by aydee View Post
I don't really know what best means in music, but people seem to have a need to place great musicians in some kind of sequential histological perspective .

Tony Williams was a game changer. He took from what came before him and changed some of it forever, and then passed it on. The is the hallmark of greatness in my opinion. He was a great player. As was Elvin, and as is Jack DeJohnette.
Before Tony, playing loudly like he did in jazz was taboo. Sure Elvin and Buddy would have the occasional accent, but never really hit the drums wide open like Tony.

When I heard Tony play "Sister Cheryl" for the 1st time, I had to re-adjust my thinking about how jazz could be played in a modern sense.

And his screaming yellow kit was iconic.

Here is some Tony gettin' it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzkZ8Ikr9L4
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  #8  
Old 01-16-2009, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
Before Tony, playing loudly like he did in jazz was taboo. Sure Elvin and Buddy would have the occasional accent, but never really hit the drums wide open like Tony.

When I heard Tony play "Sister Cheryl" for the 1st time, I had to re-adjust my thinking about how jazz could be played in a modern sense.

And his screaming yellow kit was iconic.

Here is some Tony gettin' it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzkZ8Ikr9L4
Sorry again not true. Elvin and Buddy both played HARD on wide open tuned drums. When I saw Buddy live several times his sound filled the entire room acoustically all the way to the back when he really dug in. Sure Tony played hard but he was not the first. Ever heard of Art Blakey in regards to pre-Tony jazz heavy hitters on wide open tuned drums?

Elvin in particular really played with a very high degree of physical intent at times during his years with Coltrane and the many years to follow. Do your homework on the subject if you don't believe me:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/elvinjoneszach.html
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  #9  
Old 01-16-2009, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Sorry again not true. Elvin and Buddy both played HARD on wide open tuned drums. When I saw Buddy live several times his sound filled the entire room acoustically all the way to the back when he really dug in. Sure Tony played hard but he was not the first. Ever heard of Art Blakey in regards to pre-Tony jazz heavy hitters on wide open tuned drums?

Elvin in particular really played with a very high degree of physical intent at times during his years with Coltrane and the many years to follow. Do your homework on the subject if you don't believe me:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/elvinjoneszach.html
i respect that.....he is right....if you ever listen to a lot of buddy's playing with big bands..
the band are blazing out the music and buddy manages to be heard clearly.....buddy played especially loud

and he encorporated a lot of roll sort of strokes which made it louder again!

does anyone know any sites that i could get my hands on transcripts from music that tony palyed??
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  #10  
Old 01-16-2009, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

You're new here, so I 'll let you know that when it comes to jazz drumming, you don't mess with The Man, Stan the Man that is.
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
You're new here, so I 'll let you know that when it comes to jazz drumming, you don't mess with The Man, Stan the Man that is.
but then again, im not new to jazz...
and i was agreeing with him......its a good point, elvin is credited with inventing the hard hit....but many before him used it
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  #12  
Old 01-17-2009, 03:50 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by Bosphorus View Post
but then again, im not new to jazz...
and i was agreeing with him......its a good point, elvin is credited with inventing the hard hit....but many before him used it
Which is fine. I just wanted to let you know that Stan is a real resource when it comes to jazz drumming. So take the opportunity to learn from him. :)
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

Nothing wrong at all with prefering Tony Williams' work. And it's not that big a deal if you make a historically innacurate statement here or there. NOBODY on this forum is the ultimate authority on jazz or any other kind of drumming or music.
All I'd ask is this: what good does it do to focus on the style of one drummer? Your chances of playing in the kind of situations that Tony Williams found himself in are mostly non-existent. You're never going to be in anywhere close to a scene like that. See, the need for another Elvin Jones or Tony Williams just doesn't exist.
So what about your own drumming? Do you intend to play jazz, and if so what kind, and how? So much jazz these days is basically just a singer backed by a trio, playing rubbish like "When Sonny Gets Blue" to a roomfull of drunks. Not much need for Tony Williams-style drumming there.
We tend to get, I think, a little too drum-centric, and really it's not doing anyone any good. Approaching jazz doesn't require a history degree, and it doesn't require that you play like anyone else. What it does require is a familiarity with the music, a realistic attitude, a certain amount of chops, and maybe, perhaps, some sort of suicidal tendency! Oh, and a lot of humility!
All this is just another unknown jazz drummer's opinion.
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  #14  
Old 01-17-2009, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
Nothing wrong at all with prefering Tony Williams' work. And it's not that big a deal if you make a historically innacurate statement here or there. NOBODY on this forum is the ultimate authority on jazz or any other kind of drumming or music.
All I'd ask is this: what good does it do to focus on the style of one drummer? Your chances of playing in the kind of situations that Tony Williams found himself in are mostly non-existent. You're never going to be in anywhere close to a scene like that. See, the need for another Elvin Jones or Tony Williams just doesn't exist.
So what about your own drumming? Do you intend to play jazz, and if so what kind, and how? So much jazz these days is basically just a singer backed by a trio, playing rubbish like "When Sonny Gets Blue" to a roomfull of drunks. Not much need for Tony Williams-style drumming there.
We tend to get, I think, a little too drum-centric, and really it's not doing anyone any good. Approaching jazz doesn't require a history degree, and it doesn't require that you play like anyone else. What it does require is a familiarity with the music, a realistic attitude, a certain amount of chops, and maybe, perhaps, some sort of suicidal tendency! Oh, and a lot of humility!
All this is just another unknown jazz drummer's opinion.
I never said once I was the one authority on the subject only someone who likes to see jazz related info properly presented with some truth related to the people who love and honor those who came before and what they offered to the music and the core of what is jazz music. What I am is a hardcore jazz player without any sense of compromise over more years than I can remember at this point who has kept the music alive and honest in his own small way because that's my life's blood. My goal is to keep the music real and true and get people interested in really liking jazz not just saying I sort of like and play jazz with a "thin" understanding of it's make up. Once you truly really like it and dig deep into it then and only then does it become true and the fruits of your labour feel real just like playing any other music you care to play.

Tony kept it very real to the end so did many others before him and after him regarding the knowns and the unknowns.who simply love playing the music without compromise.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
I never said once I was the one authority on the subject only someone who likes to see jazz related info properly presented with some truth related to the people who love and honor those who came before and what they offered to the music and the core of what is jazz music. What I am is a hardcore jazz player without any sense of compromise over more years than I can remember at this point who has kept the music alive and honest in his own small way because that's my life's blood. My goal is to keep the music real and true and get people interested in really liking jazz not just saying I sort of like and play jazz with a "thin" understanding of it's make up. Once you truly really like it and dig deep into it then and only then does it become true and the fruits of your labour feel real just like playing any other music you care to play.

Tony kept it very real to the end so did many others before him and after him regarding the knowns and the unknowns.who simply love playing the music without compromise.
Oh, give it a rest, Stan. Just play, and be a friend to the youngsters who are trying. Jazz isn't so harsh.
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  #16  
Old 01-17-2009, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Oh, give it a rest, Stan. Just play, and be a friend to the youngsters who are trying. Jazz isn't so harsh.
I'm being straight up front Jay and honest with no malice intended to anyone young or old with my point of view. You love the music or you don't which shows at the end of the day in your jazz playing which was the point I was trying to make and get across. As a educator and a professional jazz player I'm trying to get young players to REALLY like jazz. That my friend is a hard road in todays world i've discovered in alot of cases. How many young students say they play jazz but NEVER listen to it or really like the music. Let's try and change that for ALL involved to keep the music we call jazz real.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

The jazz road is an impossible road these days. How many jazz players are even making a living playing the music? I myself have succumbed to the bitterness that a lot of jazz musicians seem to share these days, but enough of that, I say.
Yes, I love the music, but I can't implant that love into anyone else. People have to find their own ways into this music. Giving them history lessons isn't going to help at all.
I want young people to take up this music so they can maybe teach me something. You and I, we're the old generation, let's face it. I don't want to be a historian, I just want to play something genuine, and to do that I don't need to know the history of the hi-hat or who the first person was to keep time on the ride cymbal. I need some honest energy. More playing and less thinking about it all.
Nobody will ever like something that carries arbitrary qualifying conditions with it. You don't really have to do or be anything to be a jazz musician, all you have to do is make the music your own, and we both know that there are a lot of ways to do that, and this is what needs to be encouraged for this music to keep going.
Peace to you, my jazz drumming brother.

Last edited by jay norem; 01-17-2009 at 06:08 AM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
The jazz road is an impossible road these days. How many jazz players are even making a living playing the music? I myself have succumbed to the bitterness that a lot of jazz musicians seem to share these days, but enough of that, I say.
Yes, I love the music, but I can't implant that love into anyone else. People have to find their own ways into this music. Giving them history lessons isn't going to help at all.
I want young people to take up this music so they can maybe teach me something. You and I, we're the old generation, let's face it.

Don't quite agree Jay. I'm still up on what's happening today since I hang and play with some of the youngbloods on the scene but still believe in setting a firm foundation or root in jazz knowledge for having any success later on or having "depth" to ones playing regardless of concept. Not bitter at all still love playing very much and always learning especially regarding the input I see coming from young shakers coming up within the music on the scene.

The future we spring from the past and we'll all be blessed by the result but you have to build the house on a good solid foundation to start with.
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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but still believe in setting a firm foundation or root in jazz knowledge for having any success later on or having "depth" to ones playing regardless of concept.
Yes, certainly that's one way to go about it, but it just can't be the only way. When I started out I didn't know shit. I owned maybe three jazz records. But I knew what I wanted to do and I threw myself into the fray, into the clubs, and it was there that I got my education. There are still huge gaps in my knowledge of the whole fabric of jazz, but what little I know about it is what I do, see, that's my little stain on the fabric.
I have no idea how Chick Webb played the drums, nor do I think it's important. I do not have a firm foundation or root in jazz knowledge. I do what I do and that's all, that's it. I don't know if my playing has any depth. I really don't think about. I do okay, I guess. But if I was ever going to be a great jazz drummer, I would be one by now, and I'm not. I'm just okay, some seem to think I'm quite good, but really, I'm just okay, which is cool with me!
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
Yes, certainly that's one way to go about it, but it just can't be the only way. When I started out I didn't know shit. I owned maybe three jazz records. But I knew what I wanted to do and I threw myself into the fray, into the clubs, and it was there that I got my education. There are still huge gaps in my knowledge of the whole fabric of jazz, but what little I know about it is what I do, see, that's my little stain on the fabric.
I have no idea how Chick Webb played the drums, nor do I think it's important. I do not have a firm foundation or root in jazz knowledge. I do what I do and that's all, that's it. I don't know if my playing has any depth. I really don't think about. I do okay, I guess. But if I was ever going to be a great jazz drummer, I would be one by now, and I'm not. I'm just okay, some seem to think I'm quite good, but really, I'm just okay, which is cool with me!
I started out Jay at 18 playing jazz with older jazz players who gave my my jazz education on the bandstand in local clubs in my old home town. It wasn't always pretty at times but I desired to take my shots live on the spot on stage in front of people, lick my wounds and learn from them because I heard something I liked within the music they played that I wanted to learn and play and make sound "real" for me like my jazz mentors around me were doing at the time.

This is where the older jazz players show their worth {past and present} with their aquired experience/wisdom and depth of playing on the subject regardless of where the next generation wants to take it from there. Same applies today except the jam session scene mixing jazz veterans and up and coming young players is most part is gone from the jazz scene. Different jazz world today indeed....

Hey if you have a concept and stick with it great Jay. Everytime I travel every town has some very talented complete unknowns who do it because they simply love it regardless of what is envisioned "big" success.
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Last edited by Steamer; 01-17-2009 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:00 AM
jay norem
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Default Re: Tony Williams

That's amazing, Stan, because I was exactly the same age when I started. Yep, the guys who had been around the block were the best teachers a cocky youngster could have had. Real world stuff, and every night I got to try out something new.
How do the young guys do it now? When I was a kid there were nightclubs everywhere. You played six nights a week, four sets a night. Talk about an education, man.
But we're going to have to accept that jazz will be taken however it's taken by the young guys who choose to play it. There aren't any more nightclubs, no more late-night jam sessions, all that's gone. In fact it sounds almost corny talking about it.
All I have is my own little piece of turf, and that's mine. The young guys, they're going to have to get their own, and you can be sure that they aren't going to do it the way we did.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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That's amazing, Stan, because I was exactly the same age when I started. Yep, the guys who had been around the block were the best teachers a cocky youngster could have had. Real world stuff, and every night I got to try out something new.
How do the young guys do it now? When I was a kid there were nightclubs everywhere. You played six nights a week, four sets a night. Talk about an education, man.
But we're going to have to accept that jazz will be taken however it's taken by the young guys who choose to play it. There aren't any more nightclubs, no more late-night jam sessions, all that's gone. In fact it sounds almost corny talking about it.
All I own is my own little piece of turf, and that's mine. The young guys, they're going to have to get their own, and you can be sure that they aren't going to do it the way we did.
Played drums drums since I was 9 but the jazz bug bit very hard at 18 when I first heard recordings of Elvin Jones and desired to play with other more seasoned players who knew this music far better than me at the time. Lots of jazz jam sessions back then even in my small old home town.


Agreed on your other points Jay.

You have to be happy and believe in what your doing, set a good example {musically} for others and also be willing to let the future of the music decide it's own path.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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I never said once I was the one authority on the subject only someone who likes to see jazz related info properly presented with some truth related to the people who love and honor those who came before and what they offered to the music and the core of what is jazz music..
No, I was the one that said that. But the kid will learn the difference between who knows the scoop and whose just Ann Coulter without all the hair.
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:09 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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No, I was the one that said that. But the kid will learn the difference between who knows the scoop and whose just Ann Coulter without all the hair.
Well thanks for the kind words Ken and thanks for the laugh on the Ann Coulter comment :}

Certainly nothing wrong with really digging Tony that's for sure. A lifetime of collected knowledge from his legacy to be studied for anyone interested in digging deep. Same goes with Elvin, Jack, Art, Roy, Max etc...
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

We're lucky to have you here, Stan. Not only because of your geat knowledge of jazz drumming; but also because you remind us that jazz is something very special. I've always been a big jazz and fan and a big rock fan. I always knew that jazz was the real deal since I got my first Gene Krupa album at 10. That's not to say that rock cannot often rise to the occassion of the great jazz masters. But in jazz, musical exploration is going on at the highest level. Seems cliche to say that. Maybe too Marsalis for some ears. :) But man, why do we really have to say that?
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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....... But in jazz, musical exploration is going on at the highest level. Seems cliche to say that. But man, why do we really have to say that?
Because it's true. Rock music is just "pop", for the most part. Going on 50+ years.
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by aydee View Post
I don't really know what best means in music, but people seem to have a need to place great musicians in some kind of sequential histological perspective .
Agreed. Strange isn't it that people seem to need a "best".

Tony was awesome. As was Buddy, Elvin, Klook, Papa Jo, Philly etc etc etc.
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Old 01-18-2009, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Tony Williams

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Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
Nothing wrong at all with prefering Tony Williams' work. And it's not that big a deal if you make a historically innacurate statement here or there. NOBODY on this forum is the ultimate authority on jazz or any other kind of drumming or music.
All I'd ask is this: what good does it do to focus on the style of one drummer? Your chances of playing in the kind of situations that Tony Williams found himself in are mostly non-existent. You're never going to be in anywhere close to a scene like that. See, the need for another Elvin Jones or Tony Williams just doesn't exist.
So what about your own drumming? Do you intend to play jazz, and if so what kind, and how? So much jazz these days is basically just a singer backed by a trio, playing rubbish like "When Sonny Gets Blue" to a roomfull of drunks. Not much need for Tony Williams-style drumming there.
We tend to get, I think, a little too drum-centric, and really it's not doing anyone any good. Approaching jazz doesn't require a history degree, and it doesn't require that you play like anyone else. What it does require is a familiarity with the music, a realistic attitude, a certain amount of chops, and maybe, perhaps, some sort of suicidal tendency! Oh, and a lot of humility!
All this is just another unknown jazz drummer's opinion.

some wise words my friend!..i personally dont try and copy other musicians but incorporate their type of playing in mine.......nobody will be able to recreate the magic that the drummers back then produced.....rock and hip hop drummers are becoming too prominent
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Old 01-18-2009, 02:57 AM
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some wise words my friend!..i personally dont try and copy other musicians but incorporate their type of playing in mine.......nobody will be able to recreate the magic that the drummers back then produced.....rock and hip hop drummers are becoming too prominent

But the legacy of what they left still carries on today for those holding the burning jazz torch alive and well with their own personal slant on it such as Brian, Cindy, Eric, Kenny etc..

There are still people putting out the full on real {uncompromised} jazz deal based on what Tony, Elvin, Philly, Art etc.. left us in drumming and the music.
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Old 01-18-2009, 03:38 AM
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But the legacy of what they left still carries on today for those holding the burning jazz torch alive and well with their own personal slant on it such as Brian, Cindy, Eric, Kenny etc..

There are still people putting out the full on real {uncompromised} jazz deal based on what Tony, Elvin, Philly, Art etc.. left us in drumming and the music.
drummers like elvin and tony paved the way for drummers today so that they will have a stage to play on....
sadly the amount of people keeping the torch alive are decreasing, there just isnt as much of a demand for jazz like there was in those days.
i mightnt be able to coment on this as i dont know what the current jazz music is like reall, apart from hearing the odd bits, i listen to the old jazz songs.......but since i havnt heard many new ones it seems as though jazz is becoming less popular because of the lack of new inovative jazz songs.......you could very well prove me wrong on this though....

newer jazz will get more listeners....not many people that arnt familiar with jazz will go digging it up
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Old 01-18-2009, 03:52 AM
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drummers like elvin and tony paved the way for drummers today so that they will have a stage to play on....
sadly the amount of people keeping the torch alive are decreasing, there just isnt as much of a demand for jazz like there was in those days.
i mightnt be able to coment on this as i dont know what the current jazz music is like reall, apart from hearing the odd bits, i listen to the old jazz songs.......but since i havnt heard many new ones it seems as though jazz is becoming less popular because of the lack of new inovative jazz songs.......you could very well prove me wrong on this though....

newer jazz will get more listeners....not many people that arnt familiar with jazz will go digging it up
It's a underground music now let's face it in the world of Britney, Paris and the one minute hamburger:} No instant gratification here....

The people striving to keep it alive are still making ways to take the music in further directions but still keep it real and interesting without compromise whether the vast population is aware or knows about it or not and the jazz performers are still packing concert venues when they tour for the listeners who want to hear the music. Check out what Dave Holland is doing with the music at present as one of many examples. Things are still moving along with a sense of vitality and innovation without compromise

It will be a tough go for jazz and jazz players always has been in many ways but the people who love the music and are commited to it each in their own small way will keep it going by hook or by crook regardless.
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:14 AM
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Putting things is perspective, you can take opera as an example. There hasn't been a great opera produced since perhaps Puccini's Turandot in 1926; but opera did not reach its peak until Pavarotti and the Three Tenors 50-60 years later. There are probably more operas being produced today than any other time in history.

Jazz has actually faired better in the sense that there are many people creating quality jazz now. And there is definitetly more jazz going on today than any other time in history, and on a global level.

Historically, music had never seen the type of mass popularity associated with The post-Beatles world. 'Bird' never played Shea, at least not to my knowledge. Well, it wasn't built yet. He never played Yankee Stadium. I think they asked Monk but he couldn't work it out with their playing schedule. :)

Great jazz was always an underground movement and people who want great music are still turning to jazz. Then there's Brittany and Pink, those lil hotties. Well, you know I hear all the time about how the great days of AC/DC and Aerosmith are gone and Brittany and pink are here. Rock Band is bringing that great era back. Yeah, Brittany sucks but AC/DC is great. It all gets absurd for me, esp when these guys are still parading around like school boys at 55, or the Stones are still complaining about not getting recognition after they have dominated the music industry for 40 years. But you can listen to a great jazz ensemble like Dave Hollands' as Stan mentioned, and know that there is some great music going on there.
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Old 01-18-2009, 03:39 PM
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Putting things is perspective, you can take opera as an example. There hasn't been a great opera produced since perhaps Puccini's Turandot in 1926; but opera did not reach its peak until Pavarotti and the Three Tenors 50-60 years later. There are probably more operas being produced today than any other time in history.

Jazz has actually faired better in the sense that there are many people creating quality jazz now. And there is definitetly more jazz going on today than any other time in history, and on a global level.

Historically, music had never seen the type of mass popularity associated with The post-Beatles world. 'Bird' never played Shea, at least not to my knowledge. Well, it wasn't built yet. He never played Yankee Stadium. I think they asked Monk but he couldn't work it out with their playing schedule. :)

Great jazz was always an underground movement and people who want great music are still turning to jazz. Then there's Brittany and Pink, those lil hotties. Well, you know I hear all the time about how the great days of AC/DC and Aerosmith are gone and Brittany and pink are here. Rock Band is bringing that great era back. Yeah, Brittany sucks but AC/DC is great. It all gets absurd for me, esp when these guys are still parading around like school boys at 55, or the Stones are still complaining about not getting recognition after they have dominated the music industry for 40 years. But you can listen to a great jazz ensemble like Dave Hollands' as Stan mentioned, and know that there is some great music going on there.
ive been listening to dave holland since yeaterday.....heard a lot of his stuff
hes a great bass player, and a superb band leader.....you an see the passion in his face when he plays.....i doubt you'll see that on a rockers face, the only emotion you see on his face is anger!
i stand corrected saying that theres no great popular jazz today!.....i especially love his drummer billy kilson.....hes got so much soul
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Old 01-18-2009, 03:48 PM
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Stan, whats he doing on the Sister Cheryl beat... its like a samba but not quite, or like half a bossa.... what going on there?
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:50 PM
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Bosphorous,

Tony wanted the Miles Davis quartet to open for The Beatles. But Miles wouldn't have it. he was a big rock fan, and credited himself with the invention of jazz rock fusion.


As far as Sister Cheryl, sounds like a samba. It's a half samba, with a jazz twist on the rocks. :)
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Last edited by Deltadrummer; 01-18-2009 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:29 PM
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Stan, whats he doing on the Sister Cheryl beat... its like a samba but not quite, or like half a bossa.... what going on there?
I can play it and I also have it written out Abe. It's a mix of a double time feel on the ride being a combined1/8th note on 1 and the + and ah each beat on the ride played even per beat {think up tempo swing ride pattern} with the high hat on the + of each beat with back and forth patterns between the open snare {snares off} and the bass drum. Last 1/16th note of beat 1 followed by beat 2, last 1/16th note of beat 3 followed by beat 4 for the snare pattern. 1 and the + of 2, 3 and the + of 4 on the bass drum.

Put it all together and you have something Tony himself came up with it as far as I can can tell that's a cool quasi latin/swing hybrid feel thing.
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Old 01-18-2009, 09:02 PM
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Jazz is not dead.

Carry on.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:21 AM
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Just got inside the Traps this evening. Nothing new but some interesing things who don't have every [i]Downbeat[i]with Tony on the cover. He talks about the difference between Beats and rhythms, and says how in the 1950s, drummers were still just beat keepers in rock and roll, so taht is what attracted him to jazz. Jazz was a language where you could develop a drumming syntax and not just be a beat keeper. I would wonder how Sister Cheryl played into that idea. The mag really doesn't explain it well; but it would seem that he is talking about a metamorphoses of some type where a beat is just a repetition of an basic pre-existing idea. But with Tony, not only is the groove original; it is elastic and flows in out and of the time with subtle changes in poly-rhythms, dynamics, accents and fills.

He also says that one of the strenths of Miles was that he did not get intimidated working with great players, and saw there success with the audience as a positive reflection on him as a leader.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:32 AM
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Just got inside the Traps this evening. Nothing new but some interesing things who don't have every [i]Downbeat[i]with Tony on the cover. He talks about the difference between Beats and rhythms, and says how in the 1950s, drummers were still just beat keepers in rock and roll, so taht is what attracted him to jazz. Jazz was a language where you could develop a drumming syntax and not just be a beat keeper. I would wonder how Sister Cheryl played into that idea. The mag really doesn't explain it well; but it would seem that he is talking about a metamorphoses of some type where a beat is just a repetition of an basic pre-existing idea. But with Tony, not only is the groove original; it is elastic and flows in out and of the time with subtle changes in poly-rhythms, dynamics, accents and fills.

He also says that one of the strenths of Miles was that he did not get intimidated working with great players, and saw there success with the audience as a positive reflection on him as a leader.
Like this Ken :}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTUBe...eature=related

Saw this particular group 3 times live and Sister Cheryl was always one of the high points of each show.

For a great well mastered live recording of it check out the CD "TOKYO LIVE" with Tony and this same group from the clip if still in print {?}.
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:07 AM
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...one of the strengths of Miles was that he did not get intimidated working with great players, and saw there success with the audience as a positive reflection on him as a leader.
He did shove Wynton M off stage at Avery Fischer Hall, once....... : - I
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