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  #1  
Old 01-05-2009, 06:29 AM
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Default CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I was in Best Buy today and they were selling vinyl for $20.00. It's more expensive then the CD's. The CD's in Virgin were as low as $5.00. I bought Cream Disraeli Gears remaster, Best of the Doobie Brothers and James Brown at the Apollo at 3 for 10 bucks in a clearance bin. So am I to assume that within the next year CD's are out, vinyl is the new HD and I should get a new needle for my technics record player?
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I gave up on analog some time ago. The work involved and total cost of ownership of vinyl is high. Not just the purchase:

I had a vaccum record cleaning machine that was necessary to get the junk out of the grooves and of course...proper storage. Flipping the record.

As much as I love the midrange on vinyl, the cost (both money and work) were too high for me to continue enjoying the medium.

I am too lazy for vinyl.
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

Putting it simply, the production of vinyl is more expensive because of:

i) The materials (although this has drastically gone down since the price of crude plummeted).

and

ii) The production. Not that the process is any harder or more arduous than CD production, it's that the runs of Vinyl are shorter than of CD because of a lack of demand and therefore the mass-manufacturing possibilities are not there. The price per unit is increased drastically as a result.

Buying second hand vinyl, I seem to find that the price is roughly the same as CD - new ones at least. There's also markup on collector value as well, so if I were to go out and find a copy of 'Freak Out!' by Frank Zappa and the Mothers, it would likely cost me a tidy sum as that record is hard to come by in both CD and Vinyl formats (believe me, I've tried) whereas something like 'Dark Side of the Moon' in a playable condition isn't an expensive record as there are so many made.

I love vinyl, I absolutely do. But when taking into account the practical advantages of CD, I've had to leave my turntable at home whilst I'm at Uni. Possibly buying a USB turntable in a month or two...
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I love Vinyl. My hobby is collecting LPs. However, I prefer listening to the mp3 version all the time because of convenience.

Yes, LPs today cost more. I love hunting down the garage sales.
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I always loved vinyl as well. I actually sold all my records from when I was a kid for tuition back in college. And then in that late 80's, I bought them all back for a buck or two. I guess that was a good business move. :) For listening to classical music the cd is definitely preferred. But I guess it will be shortly phased out for popular and rock recordings; but I wonder if audiophiles will keep buying vinyl. It seems silly now that the recordings are digital to begin with.

Love your tabla. One of my students parents just bought me some Zakir Hussain CDs for Christmas. (I traded them in for the vinyl though.)
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I always loved vinyl as well. I actually sold all my records from when I was a kid for tuition back in college. And then in that late 80's, I bought them all back for a buck or two. I guess that was a good business move. :) For listening to classical music the cd is definitely preferred. But I guess it will be shortly phased out for popular and rock recordings; but I wonder if audiophiles will keep buying vinyl. It seems silly now that the recordings are digital to begin with.

Love your tabla. One of my students parents just bought me some Zakir Hussain CDs for Christmas. (I traded them in for the vinyl though.)
The recordings may be digital to start with, but that doesn't mean that the vinyl won't impart its own quality onto that recording. I think the CD format is starting to show its age and has been for some time. Ironically, Mp3 has actually saved it by being an even lower quality encoding, so the people who are buying Mp3 and CD don't really hear the highest-quality recordings. DVD might change this though. The quality of the mastering on some DVD's (The Incredibles comes to mind) is just phenomenal and sooner or later, the consumer is going to take note. 5.1 surround sound has been a viable option for years now and yet it has a relatively small uptake - probably due to practical considerations - but with the next generation of media formats coming to the fore, I can see the CD slowly dying as a means of distribution; partly due to the convenience of Mp3 and partly due to the quality of DVD. CD takes the middle ground there and might be squeezed out.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat View Post
The recordings may be digital to start with, but that doesn't mean that the vinyl won't impart its own quality onto that recording. I think the CD format is starting to show its age and has been for some time. Ironically, Mp3 has actually saved it by being an even lower quality encoding, so the people who are buying Mp3 and CD don't really hear the highest-quality recordings. DVD might change this though. The quality of the mastering on some DVD's (The Incredibles comes to mind) is just phenomenal and sooner or later, the consumer is going to take note. 5.1 surround sound has been a viable option for years now and yet it has a relatively small uptake - probably due to practical considerations - but with the next generation of media formats coming to the fore, I can see the CD slowly dying as a means of distribution; partly due to the convenience of Mp3 and partly due to the quality of DVD. CD takes the middle ground there and might be squeezed out.
Yeah my personal opinion is that we're going to start having recordings in HD, by which i mean higher sampling rates. I mean you can buy soundcards for 50 nowdays that can handle 96kz and 24bit recordings. The only thing really holding it back is the size of the files but considering that 5 years ago when i built my first computer the 40gb hdd cost the same amount as you could get a 400gb hard disk today, plus the fact that the internet has improved exponentially in speed it doesn't seem too unreasonable to me that in the very near future we might start seeing albums recorded in HD and released on DVD, USB (you can already buy albums on this format) or maybe even for download. My personal opinion is that both the improvement in sample rate and bits per sample makes the music sound a lot less digitised but hey, maybe that's just me?
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

Well, consider that the Red Book standard for CD hasn't changed since 1983 and that is 44.1KhZ at 16-bit resolution and you're right. Most of even the most basic software packages now offer 96KhZ recording and 24-bit resolution and the DVD format has used these for some time - or at least had them available. Whilst the Red Book is certainly adequate for most applications, some of the geeks can tell the difference and there are subtleties.

Compression-free download has been a realistic option for a while now as well. FLAC files and .WAV recordings are being released all the time, but mainly as whole-album downloads or as individual multitrack files (Nine Inch Nails have been doing this, for instance) and these offer the consumer pretty much any quality they could want. If they want smaller files for their iPod, they can compress them themselves into .Mp3 (or .M4A on iTunes) or if they have the space, they can hold onto the original quality recordings.

This does bring us closer to analogue, yes. Analogue has a theoretically infinite sample rate and resolution so the higher the numbers, the closer to analogue we get.
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

If you're buying old vinyl, it's half the price of CD re-releases in my experience! That is second-hand though.
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

Blue-ray supports uncompressed audio...that medium is amazing.

I compared (there was NO comparision) the DVD and blu-ray of "Superman returns."

The audio was easily 30% more powerful, and much more vivid.

There is no way to get that kind of low-bass power out of vinyl without the arm jumping off the plinth.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Well, consider that the Red Book standard for CD hasn't changed since 1983 and that is 44.1KhZ at 16-bit resolution and you're right. Most of even the most basic software packages now offer 96KhZ recording and 24-bit resolution and the DVD format has used these for some time - or at least had them available. Whilst the Red Book is certainly adequate for most applications, some of the geeks can tell the difference and there are subtleties.

Compression-free download has been a realistic option for a while now as well. FLAC files and .WAV recordings are being released all the time, but mainly as whole-album downloads or as individual multitrack files (Nine Inch Nails have been doing this, for instance) and these offer the consumer pretty much any quality they could want. If they want smaller files for their iPod, they can compress them themselves into .Mp3 (or .M4A on iTunes) or if they have the space, they can hold onto the original quality recordings.

This does bring us closer to analogue, yes. Analogue has a theoretically infinite sample rate and resolution so the higher the numbers, the closer to analogue we get.
The thing is though that people do say this about analogue and in theory it's true. However what you have to remember is that the soundwave analogue has to be recorded onto a medium and the actual accuracy of the recording although in theory it could be infinite will only be as much as can actually be recorded onto the medium. In the case of vinyl it's only ever going to be as accurate as the plastic can be moulded.

As for the standard for CD yes it hasn't changed in a long while however if you think about it the standard resolution for TV has been 640x480 for many many years but it's only in the last 2 or 3 years that HDTV has hit the mainstream even though the capabilities to produce images of such quality on even relatively inexpensive monitors has been around for nearly 10 years now so maybe it'll be a bit of a wait before HD audio comes out, but it will.

Trkdrmr, I haven't seen a blu-ray movie but even better than that i watched Quantum of Solace in a digital cinema which presumably uses the same HD standards and it was incredible, not only better than TV or standard DVD but i think better than analogue. The problem i've always had with analogue film is that every little speck of dirt that gets onto the film goes onto the screen, creating a lot of visual noise, made worse by the large upscaling factor that you get with the cinema.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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Originally Posted by eddiehimself View Post
The thing is though that people do say this about analogue and in theory it's true. However what you have to remember is that the soundwave analogue has to be recorded onto a medium and the actual accuracy of the recording although in theory it could be infinite will only be as much as can actually be recorded onto the medium. In the case of vinyl it's only ever going to be as accurate as the plastic can be moulded.

Considering that many recordings are still mastered onto analogue tape or even recorded onto tape - and that the standards for digital recording are far, far higher than those onto which they're being mastered and it becomes pretty obvious that the limiting factor of CD quality is the mastering, not the recording.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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Considering that many recordings are still mastered onto analogue tape or even recorded onto tape - and that the standards for digital recording are far, far higher than those onto which they're being mastered and it becomes pretty obvious that the limiting factor of CD quality is the mastering, not the recording.
Of course i know that but i was on about digital music as a concept rather than CD. If you think about it, as long as you have enough data storage capacity you could in theory have sample rates and bits per sample so high that they surpass even the accuracy of vinyl.
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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Of course i know that but i was on about digital music as a concept rather than CD. If you think about it, as long as you have enough data storage capacity you could in theory have sample rates and bits per sample so high that they surpass even the accuracy of vinyl.
Subjectively, perhaps, but theoretically vinyl has an infinite sampling rate and bit depth. In terms of accurate reproduction - we're already there and have been for a long time, but in terms of what people 'prefer' to hear, we're not. Vinyl imparts its own character onto the sound that is not present on CD.
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

They don't sell any vinyl in any of the Best Buy's I go to. Learn something new everyday.
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I think the problem you get in with a lot of the new technolgy is that it can be over kill. You can talk about sampling; but there is a point at which it is inaudible. and you can look at Blue Ray of HD; but often the only thing that it is greater defining is fake sets, bad acting and that zit on someone's forehead. And for the price you pay, you'd be better off going to the movie theater or seeing some live music.
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Old 01-06-2009, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

There has been a ton written on mp3 vs. vinyl vs. CD lately. The forecast is good-bye CD. Vinyl for spendy hipsters; mp3 for everyone else.

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/m...eningpost_1029

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...702369,00.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shelby...d_b_89336.html
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Old 01-06-2009, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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There has been a ton written on mp3 vs. vinyl vs. CD lately. The forecast is good-bye CD. Vinyl for spendy hipsters; mp3 for everyone else.

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/m...eningpost_1029

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...702369,00.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shelby...d_b_89336.html
Just to add to this - the availability of compression-free downloads has also been increasing rapidly along with the availability of vinyl. In the end, it comes down to the preference between accurate reproduction and vinyl reproduction (for the purists/audiophiles) and the CD covers neither of these to any extent.

Funnily enough, I'm one very few new generation guys who can operate a tape machine. I'm talking about my generation at University. Right now I'm doing a degree in Music Technology and whilst there are a few of us who can operate tape, at college it was altogether a different experience. Give it five years and I suspect that all my compatriots who go into the recording industry (still don't know if I want to end up there) ought to know how to use tape.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I used to use a PCM to record on to video tape. I also used a video cassette as a 8-hour music tape, it worked well.

I do remember firing up an old Revox R2R that sounded quite good.

My ultimate "cassette" days consisted of the following decks:

Akai: budget 3-head
Teac R-888x - outstanding for the money
Panasonic hi-fi VHS deck
Harmon Kardon---In 85 $650 was a LOT of money but....

I lusted with all my being after a Namakmichi dragon... $2,000 of cassette tape auto-azimuth correction bliss (NAAC). Even the simpler CR-7 was amazing.

Half-speed masters and heavy vinyl were the rage.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

Half-speed masters and heavy vinyl are coming back in!

http://www.audiophilelps.com/ An interesting link if you're willing to geek out.
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I had heavy vinyl of many classic rock and classical pieces. The 1812 overture was too much for my tonearm/needle. It would jump during the finale.

I like heavy vinyl... as to half-speed... I am not sure if it's that or just the recording technique/quality that sets it apart.

I picked up my last vinyl from mobile fidelity, telarc, (IIRC Sheffield labs) from a store called "Ameobas" in California.

I think classrooms should demonstrate Pink Floyd's DSOTM on quality vinyl vs the cd. That illustrates a difference that will raise hair on your arms.

There is one online source in the USA for vinyl and LP supplies, it's in a credit card commercial as well. (I forgot the name)
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

Well I have DSOTM on vinyl at home, but our copy is shot to Hell so it barely plays. The funny thing is, we have two copies of WYWH because the first one doesn't play at all it's been worn out thoroughly. Our vinyl Sergeant Pepper's jumps on the run-in groove! That's obscene!

I always try out new kit to my CD version of DSOTM, followed by my vinyl copy of 'In Rainbows' by Radiohead. There's definitely a noticeable difference there as well (and some of the songs have been subtly varispeed'ed to fit onto the vinyl...!)
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:40 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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Originally Posted by Billy Brown View Post
There has been a ton written on mp3 vs. vinyl vs. CD lately. The forecast is good-bye CD. Vinyl for spendy hipsters; mp3 for everyone else.

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/m...eningpost_1029

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...702369,00.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shelby...d_b_89336.html
Actually, they've been forecasting this for about ten years. But when you think about it, most music technolgies have only had about a twenty-five year life. Cd's were new and convenient. Now mp3 fills that void. But I can't see them fading away any time soon. I've got about 3,000 CD's. The production vs. cost factor for Cd's has always been a big sell. You can get a good sound out of a system for $700 bucks; whereas with vinyl, you would spend several thousand. They had those laser phonographs for a short time before vinyl faded. I heard that they are at the Smithsonian. That was a good idea.

I find that the downloads often deteriorate, and I am not ready to spend my prcious album $$$ on something I can't see. :)
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I can't see how downloads deteriorate...! It's just a collection of 0's and 1's - file corruption doesn't happen as it's a non-write entity, unless you decide to compress it. That's why we have nice lossless formats like FLAC.

If I had the money, I would glady pay thousands on a nice stereo system. There's nothing like holding a record and putting it on a turntable - it's a physical thing as much as it is an audible thing. This is why downloads to me are kind of missing the point to some extent. I love buying albums - usually CD admittedly, but there's a physical presence and tactile sensation of vinyl that CD cannot replicate. The same goes for the artwork. With all that said and done, however - for sheer quality of replication, it's going to have to be a high-quality digital format. If you want accuracy - say you're going for a test tone - then nothing can beat high-quality digital.

If you want something nice to listen to - vinyl. The little imperfections are what makes it such a pleasure.
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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That's why we have nice lossless formats like FLAC.

Will FLAC deliver a high quality digital download?
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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Will FLAC deliver a high quality digital download?
Yes. It's a compression-free format that you convert into whatever you want. Some players even play it directly.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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I find that the downloads often deteriorate, and I am not ready to spend my prcious album $$$ on something I can't see. :)
That's a bit of an odd statement because compared to records, cassette tapes or even CDs downloads don't deteriorate at all. That's one of the best things about them. Also MFB i know what you mean about records, they are very nice to hold and play and the charachter is good. However just because of the convinience and the accuracy of it i think i'd rather just listen to digital.
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

Yeah, 'deterioreate' is really not the right word. I am saying that as compared to CD's downloads can sometimes get corrupted.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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So am I to assume that within the next year CD's are out, vinyl is the new HD and I should get a new needle for my technics record player?
Quote:
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There has been a ton written on mp3 vs. vinyl vs. CD lately. The forecast is good-bye CD. Vinyl for spendy hipsters; mp3 for everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Actually, they've been forecasting this for about ten years. But when you think about it, most music technolgies have only had about a twenty-five year life. Cd's were new and convenient. Now mp3 fills that void. But I can't see them fading away any time soon.
So you asked the original question in jest? I'm confused.

It seems to me that restrictionless mp3s from iTunes is a sign of planned obsolescence for CDs.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:53 AM
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So you asked the original question in jest? I'm confused.

It seems to me that restrictionless mp3s from iTunes is a sign of planned obsolescence for CDs.
There is already a rom-chip product that they want to shift to instead of cd's.

Those huge, bulky cd's had to go...
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:54 AM
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So you asked the original question in jest? I'm confused.

It seems to me that restrictionless mp3s from iTunes is a sign of planned obsolescence for CDs.
It was asked in jest from the point that it was ironic shopping for music and seeing vinyl at Best Buy for $20.00 while I've been finding $5 CD's, 50% off CD's at Virgin and 3 for $10 in clearance bins. For people who have come to like CD's, this is a feast.

I think it is somewhat silly that folks are now paying $20.00 for vinyl, esp when it is recorded in digital format. Technolgy is funny. It needs to continually change to keep the market moving. I never needed to repurchase all my music on CD, and now I am not going to repurchase all my DVD's on Blue Ray. Remember Laser Discs? I sold mine for a good buck about six months before DVD's came out.

I do not like downloads. The compression sounds like you are listening to music in a box. It is nice to know that there is a new technology that will allow for high quality, non-compressed downloads. I can see that this is moving forward because quality downloads was the hinderance to the elimination of the CD. But I still don't know that I want to listen to music through my PC, and take it on the run to listening parties.
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Old 01-09-2009, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

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It was asked in jest from the point that it was ironic shopping for music and seeing vinyl at Best Buy for $20.00 while I've been finding $5 CD's, 50% off CD's at Virgin and 3 for $10 in clearance bins. For people who have come to like CD's, this is a feast.

I think it is somewhat silly that folks are now paying $20.00 for vinyl, esp when it is recorded in digital format. Technolgy is funny. It needs to continually change to keep the market moving. I never needed to repurchase all my music on CD, and now I am not going to repurchase all my DVD's on Blue Ray. Remember Laser Discs? I sold mine for a good buck about six months before DVD's came out.

I do not like downloads. The compression sounds like you are listening to music in a box. It is nice to know that there is a new technology that will allow for high quality, non-compressed downloads. I can see that this is moving forward because quality downloads was the hinderance to the elimination of the CD. But I still don't know that I want to listen to music through my PC, and take it on the run to listening parties.
Yeah well i guess tastes change, i mean 50 years ago everyone wanted to live in a "new" style house and people would put wood veneers over their victorian wood doors and get rid of fireplaces to put electric or gas heaters in to make it more "modern". Nowdays people spend tons of money on "period features" that the people before them had spent time taking out.

So things change, first they are the standard or required technology, then they become replaced by something new and are seen as "obsolete", such was the case when CDs actually first came out for most people, then if something is actually any good, it goes back into fasion again and they become higher in value as more people start to use it again. We're starting to see "phase 2" for CDs, where they become seen as obsolete as there are more accurate/higher quality formats and more convinent formats too but maybe they will come back into vogue again one day (then again perhaps not ;))

As for listening to music on your pc, you can plug your hifi into a computer and it's pretty much just like listening to a cd player but with your entire song collection on one album. You can actually buy pcs these days that are like specialised media players.
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Old 01-12-2009, 06:37 PM
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Bruce M. Thomson Bruce M. Thomson is offline
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I was in the business for 18 years and I am almost strictly a vinyl listener, I and many others find it a warmer sound but you need a good table and tone/arm cartridge combo to reap the benefits, your audio system is only as good as the weakest link. If you have a Technics 1200 the Stanton & Pickering are a good choice or my favorite, Ortofon. The same principal in theory applies to CD players as well, a cheap one really makes the music harsh and and don't have good error correction. Vinyl is making a come back so I would say go for it. If you want any other advice on this topic just email.


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Old 01-12-2009, 10:38 PM
Baddstuff Baddstuff is offline
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Default Re: CD cheap Vinyl expensive.

I still have about 1000 vinyl albums that I just cannot part with. I was getting them on to CD using my old Thorens belt drive turntable with a Shure V15 Type 3 cartridge but that finally died. I was getting some pretty good results that way since my albums are in great condition.
I recently got an Audio Technica USB turntable for $100 and have been using that but the wav files need a bit if tweaking. My Thorens/Shure combo was much better. If done right though it's not bad for $100 if you don't mind tweaking the files.
I pretty much avoid buying MP3's online because I like to rip songs to MP3 myself. I don't know if I can get back into buying vinyl again or if the stuff I like will even be available on vinyl.
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