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  #1  
Old 10-31-2008, 06:58 PM
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Default Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

There are trillions of examples, but I want a sound similar to what Portnoy is playing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkF4JD2rO3Q at 8:04 on.

I know it's a china that he's riding, and it's perfect for metal breakdowns. I need something that has short sustain, a nice crashy sound, but I DON'T want it to be too loud, so it doesn't drown out my crash. Also, it will be played mostly in my friend's attic, so I don't want an overly loud china (I have a 12" Wuhan which is painfully, earsplittingly loud--and crappy, making it virtually unusable).

I know I could buy what Portnoy has, but shelling out $300-400 for a cymbal isn't realistic for me, as we're a young family on a single income and I only play about once a week. I want to spend no more than $100 or so. I originally looked at a Paiste PST 5 China 16" due to the price and good reviews on MF, but then I thought that might be too heavy and loud. I know I can play it softer, but still.

Now I'm looking at a Sabian XS20 Chinese 18", because it seems to be thinner and quieter (according to reviews/specs). I need something that's NOT as "cutting" as a lot of chinas seem to be.

Am I headed in the right direction?

Last edited by drumnoob; 10-31-2008 at 11:28 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2008, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

I'd still be going for a Wuhan in this situation, just a larger size so it won't be as fast/cutting/ear-splittingly loud. 20" should do it. Maybe 50 bucks?
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

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Originally Posted by Toby_Jackson View Post
I'd still be going for a Wuhan in this situation, just a larger size so it won't be as fast/cutting/ear-splittingly loud. 20" should do it. Maybe 50 bucks?
I agree, I use a 17" Wuhan for one of my china's and it's dark enough to not be overbearing, Much less loud then the 12" (I used one of those too). I'd shoot for a 20" maybe even a 22"
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

I merely listen to Dream Theater: train of thought.

BIG thin china. 20-24". Wuhan is great among others. It has to be thin to be dark and trashy for those quarter note ride passages.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2008, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

He is playing one of his Max Stax cymbal sets

Oh and just in case you were wondering, they are named after his son Max



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Old 11-04-2008, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

At 8:04 he's playing on a fast crash. Not a china or Max Stax. A 17" or lower fast crash works great during breakdowns, same with a 14" crash I have tightened up.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

I'd too go with a bigger, thin china. Stagg TH 18" (also know as Traditional Lion 18") China perfectly fits your description. Since it looks very similar to Wuhan china cymbals, I'd guess a Wuhan in similar size would not sound too different, though I thing Stagg is a bit less loud.
Off course, up close all those cymbals might sound a bit longer and slower than you'd maybe like, but out front, mixed with the other instruments, I believe it'd be just what you want. And you can always stack a small crash or splash over it to shorten the sustain even more.

Last edited by Fiery; 11-04-2008 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

OK, cool. I just assumed since my 12" sounded so bad all Wuhans were crap. And it's a bonus they're comparatively cheap too.

With, say, a Wuhan, would you tip it upside down? I'm not sure what the proper etiquette is, or if it makes a difference in the sound. I know it makes a difference in the life of your sticks.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

If you play rock/metal you put it upside down. If you ride it with the tip of your stick, you keep it bell up.

Go for a big ass Wuhan
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  #10  
Old 11-05-2008, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

Portnoy is using a Sabian 19" Jojo Mayer Signature Fierce Crash in that outro (as can be seen on his "Sysdrumatic Chaos" DVD). He's been using this Cymbal on his kit since the Octavarium sessions. It has really deep Hammering to create a Trashy-Crash type sound.

Here's the specs and Sound sample for it:http://www.sabian.com/EN/products/Fi..._19_JM1990.cfm

The Sabian AA 18" Fast Chinese might also suit your needs as it has a very small and thin flanged edge, therefore sounds more like a Crash: http://www.sabian.com/EN/products/AA...e_18_21844.cfm

Hope everyone's well,

Kev
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  #11  
Old 11-06-2008, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Howden View Post
Portnoy is using a Sabian 19" Jojo Mayer Signature Fierce Crash in that outro (as can be seen on his "Sysdrumatic Chaos" DVD). He's been using this Cymbal on his kit since the Octavarium sessions. It has really deep Hammering to create a Trashy-Crash type sound.

Here's the specs and Sound sample for it:http://www.sabian.com/EN/products/Fi..._19_JM1990.cfm

The Sabian AA 18" Fast Chinese might also suit your needs as it has a very small and thin flanged edge, therefore sounds more like a Crash: http://www.sabian.com/EN/products/AA...e_18_21844.cfm

Hope everyone's well,

Kev
Thanks Kev--it's good to find out exactly what he's playing. Unfortunately those are WAAAY out of my price range. Can you recommend something with a similar sound but for less $$$?
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  #12  
Old 11-09-2008, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

I too had a wuhan 12" and it sounded so bad that I will not try another one no matter the size unless I find it on the side of the road and am missing a hubcap.

I love the sound of the Sabian AA fast crash 18" and they are on E-bay right now for $150, I may get one but I also need to solidify my Hi hat situation so I am looking for those now as well.
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  #13  
Old 11-10-2008, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

1. That's not a break down. lozl
2. He riding on a crash.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

Yeah In that clip he's using the Sabian Jojo Mayer 19" Signature Fierce Crash which is pretty trashy in it's own right.
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

I stand corrected
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

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Originally Posted by rmandelbaum View Post
I stand corrected
....Which cymbalizes that you should think before you speak.

Once you realize that, you can head in the right direction, not make such a hoop about it.

I'm sick of having to lug around all this hate for you're ignorance!

Oh well. You can't be beat. I'm just going to have to ride out the anger.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

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Originally Posted by drumnoob View Post
OK, cool. I just assumed since my 12" sounded so bad all Wuhans were crap. And it's a bonus they're comparatively cheap too.

With, say, a Wuhan, would you tip it upside down? I'm not sure what the proper etiquette is, or if it makes a difference in the sound. I know it makes a difference in the life of your sticks.
Bell up, it will sound a little "crashier" - a little less bite and a bit more sustain. Not a huge difference, but you might notice it.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:41 AM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

lol, I've seen a 12" wuhan too. One of the coolest cymbals ever is the 22" Swish Knocker (Zildjian). I love this thing myself and it can be as loud as you want it too, or not. It's got rivets too which is a nice effect. The Zildjian Oriental series chinas and china trash crashes or whatever they are called are nice too. The 19" Zildjian K china is another favorite.
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  #19  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

1. Don't trust musicians friend reviews.
2. I have a 16" Wuhan that is perfect for "breakdowns." Just make sure you listen to the cymbal before throwing down the cash because Wuhans tend to be inconsistent in their sound and characteristics.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

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Originally Posted by secondXheartbeat View Post
1. Don't trust musicians friend reviews.
2. I have a 16" Wuhan that is perfect for "breakdowns." Just make sure you listen to the cymbal before throwing down the cash because Wuhans tend to be inconsistent in their sound and characteristics.
Because they're hand-hammered, right?
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

OK, after much research one that I think I'll end up buying is the Zildjian ZHT Fast Crash. After hearing all the sound samples from the different sizes, I like the 15" the best. It's punchy, not too bright or loud, and has a quick decay. It's just under $100, so that's cool. Not top of the line I know, but at my skill level to buy a really expensive cymbal would just be stupid. Does anyone have any experience with this particular cymbal?
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  #22  
Old 11-25-2008, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

Quote:
Originally Posted by secondXheartbeat View Post
1. Don't trust musicians friend reviews.
2. I have a 16" Wuhan that is perfect for "breakdowns." Just make sure you listen to the cymbal before throwing down the cash because Wuhans tend to be inconsistent in their sound and characteristics.
GC doesn't sell wuhans any more (replaced them with agazarian crap) and I don't know of any other music store that carries them. Wouldn't they sound pretty much the same with a little difference?
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Old 11-26-2008, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

I just won a Paiste 16" Fast Crash on eBay. It was $15!! I think it's a signature model right ($200-300 new)? However, it has a nice little chunk taken out of it. Obviously this will affect the sound, but how much and what effect might it have--less volume, shorter/longer decay? I still got a good deal right? I mean, $15!!
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

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Originally Posted by drumnoob View Post
I just won a Paiste 16" Fast Crash on eBay. It was $15!! I think it's a signature model right ($200-300 new)? However, it has a nice little chunk taken out of it. Obviously this will affect the sound, but how much and what effect might it have--less volume, shorter/longer decay? I still got a good deal right? I mean, $15!!
It might sound a little gongy.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

OK, got the cymbal (I attached the pic in my last post) yesterday and got to try it out for about 45 mins. I love it! It actually sounds great (at least to my ears). It has a fast attack and decay, and it's not too bright or loud. It's not really that rideable though as it's a little too loud for that. But really, it's just what I was looking for in a crash. I'll have to keep looking into a large china. Considering it's about $250 new, I'd say I got a freakin' steal for $15 (even though there's a chunk missing). I got lucky because it doesn't seem to affect the sound much...it doesn't sound gongy or otherwise screwed up.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Need a china for riding (metal breakdowns)

I don't really use chinese cymbals, but the best three I've ever played are:

1. 19" Sabian Paragon chinese
2. 19" Sabian AAXtreme chinese
3. some kind of Wuhan
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