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  #41  
Old 11-28-2008, 10:52 PM
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caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
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Default Re: The "versatility" of gear

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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Choosing the sounds you like and why is not a crime to speak about....
Exactly! Once again, you and I seem to agree...

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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Who does that? I certainly don't but sounds like some seem to think so for their own reasons in my view. Simply stating clearly what you prefer and why over other choices available seems to rub some people the wrong way around here as i've discovered.
If you're implying that I may think that way about you, I'm not, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I'm speaking in the hypotheticals, as per usual. If you actually want me to comment on what you've said, then I'd have to say that I totally agree with your thoughts and views in this, and most other threads we've talked in.

Except this last post, where you said "...and why over other choices available...". I'm all for promoting certain cymbals and talking about why we like the cymbals we do. But, the moment I start to discredit another cymbal/drum or put it down, I question my intentions, and wonder if I'm really making a positive difference in the world and on this forum. Well, with the exception of the Pitch Blacks! Man, those things suck!!!

I'm in a weird place these last couple of days. Thanks for journeying with me...
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2008, 10:54 PM
jay norem
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Default Re: The "versatility" of gear

Hey, Stan, I wonder what you'd think of my ride cymbal. It's a 20" K Custom Medium Ride, not by any stretch a "jazz cymbal." It's pretty heavy for jazz, but it has a nice "tip" to it if you know what I mean. It just sort of said something to me, like choosing a dog at the pound. "Take me home with you," it said. I've made it my sound, you see, my little personal stain on the jazz fabric.
Now if I had the bread, I'd definitely look into the cymbals that you champion, but alas, I'm very poor. Jazz drummer, you know.
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2008, 11:02 PM
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caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
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Default Re: The "versatility" of gear

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Originally Posted by jay norem View Post
Hey, Stan, I wonder what you'd think of my ride cymbal. It's a 20" K Custom Medium Ride, not by any stretch a "jazz cymbal." It's pretty heavy for jazz, but it has a nice "tip" to it if you know what I mean. It just sort of said something to me, like choosing a dog at the pound. "Take me home with you," it said. I've made it my sound, you see, my little personal stain on the jazz fabric.
Now if I had the bread, I'd definitely look into the cymbals that you champion, but alas, I'm very poor. Jazz drummer, you know.
Same with my 24" K Light Ride. It just spoke to me. When I take it to rock gigs, I think it sounds great, being a cymbal that's supposed to lean towards jazz. It's just a great cymbal, regardless of genre!
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2008, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: The "versatility" of gear

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
Exactly! Once again, you and I seem to agree...



If you're implying that I may think that way about you, I'm not, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I'm speaking in the hypotheticals, as per usual. If you actually want me to comment on what you've said, then I'd have to say that I totally agree with your thoughts and views in this, and most other threads we've talked in.

Except this last post, where you said "...and why over other choices available...". I'm all for promoting certain cymbals and talking about why we like the cymbals we do. But, the moment I start to discredit another cymbal/drum or put it down, I question my intentions, and wonder if I'm really making a positive difference in the world and on this forum. Well, with the exception of the Pitch Blacks! Man, those things suck!!!

I'm in a weird place these last couple of days. Thanks for journeying with me...
No worries my friend :} Just some old memories of a certain individual coming back to haunt me.

The choice of one over others is just personal preference type of thing yet again nothing more to read into it.

Oh yes Pitch Blacks = total garbage. That opinion i'm firm on...
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  #45  
Old 11-28-2008, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: The "versatility" of gear

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
Same with my 24" K Light Ride. It just spoke to me. When I take it to rock gigs, I think it sounds great, being a cymbal that's supposed to lean towards jazz. It's just a great cymbal, regardless of genre!
Yup if it fits and you like it then that's all that really matters.
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  #46  
Old 11-29-2008, 01:36 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Re: The "versatility" of gear

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haha and we classify small drums as ideal for playing bebop

as we listen to a lot of music in a single genre, we tend to label those sounds as a "jazz" sound or w.e and we try to recreate it. Even cymbal and drum companies call their gear "jazz rides" or "bop kit" since a lot of ppl played gear with those characteristics in w.e era.

so you're right. one can technically use any kit for whatever genre if music
I watched a show with a 60's music coverband. They played stuff from 1966-1972. The kit was a gretsch bop kit.

Part of the way through the show, the soundman worked his magic. They started cranking out "The who" and "vanilla fudge".

I was in shock at the power and depth they got from that kit...

My caveat is that, I would not do this in reverse. I would not attempt to engineer a Bonham kit down for light acoustic bop.

The right tool for the right job...for the most part.
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  #47  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:40 PM
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dkerwood dkerwood is offline
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Default Re: The "versatility" of gear

This has been an interesting thread. It's really made me think about WHY I feel something is "better" than something else. I've got a trumpet student who has great technical capacities, but his tone is TERRIBLE. I try to work with him on it, but he's very happy with his own tone, and thus makes no effort to improve it. Ah, but who am I to say his tone is bad? I may not like it, but he obviously does. Am I just trying to put my own preferences over his?

At this point in my thought process, I realize that I am simply trying to help him to be successful. It's possible that he could stick to his guns and be extremely successful with his choked, tight trumpet tone. That tone could become his signature and people might start to love it. All I know is that the tone I have in mind for him might make him MORE successful, and quicker.

So is that it? Is that where we derive our ideas of "better"? From precedents and guesses of what might work best? From this, do we figure out our own concept of what we like?

Let me tell a tale of 4 ride cymbals. I was hired to play in a jazz combo a few weeks ago, and I was agonizing over what pies to take along. I own 3 rides right now, and there's a fourth that I sometimes use. Ride number one is my oldest- Zildjian 20" Avedis Medium Ride. Nice ping, somewhat weak bell, too loud when crashed, full wash. Ride number two is a K Custom 18" Flat Ride. All wash, slightly trashy, not very crashable, pretty quiet (opens up quickly). Ride three is a 20" Paiste Sound Formula Power Ride. Good ping, little wash, metallic overtones (lots of highs). Ride four is another Zildjian 20" Avedis Medium Ride. This one, however, opens up a LOT more quickly and turns into a heavy crash cymbal. It's completely unlike Ride #1.

Since I was doing combo jazz, I needed something quiet and articulate, with enough wash to fill the space. It had to be sensitive to brushes, mallets, sticks, and any other toys I might haul out because I was bored. I played on Ride 3 for a while, but didn't like the sound of the wash until I got entirely too loud on it. No way a sax player and rhythm section would be able to keep up.

Ride 1 (the ride that I generally call my "versatile" ride) had the articulation and wash I wanted, but I was worried about the volume necessary to do crashes on it. Ride 4 would probably have been perfect for this situation, but it was too late to go out and borrow it.

Finally, I mounted Ride 2 and played on that for a while. I didn't like feeling that I was playing at 90% of the ride's volume for a medium volume (I like headroom), but it certainly fit the bill for articulation and wash. After playing both rides 1 and 2 (and even 3) for my wife, she confirmed my suspicion that I should bring ride 2- the flat ride.

That decision led me to grab my K Custom Dark Crash (RIP) and, unexpectedly, my Sabian HH Orchestral. The hand hammered cymbals all seemed to have similar timbres which helped them to blend. Normally, I'd have grabbed another older Avedis or even an A Custom rather than the HH, but in this configuration, it worked wonders.

Yes, I chose those cymbals because I felt that they would fit the situation "better"- that is, I thought they would give me the most opportunity to be successful. Could I have played the gig with my 18" and 12" chinas, a popcorn snare, and a 26" bass drum? Sure, but I'm not sure it would still really sound like "jazz," at least not how we know it today.

My band (in which I play guitar) once played on a house set which included a popcorn snare. We had a song that featured a march-like beat on the snare. On my drummer's snare, it was ringy and ethereal- exactly the sound we wanted. On this snare, however, it was tight and precise... definitely took some getting used to. Was it better or worse? Hard to say, but it certainly wasn't the sound I was going for when I wrote the song.

One thing I've been discovering recently as I've really been studying snare drum construction and tuning- each snare has its own unique set of attributes. Each snare has some qualities that can't really be tuned in or out of it. For example, my Tama Starclassic 6.5x14 brass snare will always sound different than my 80s Ludwig 5.5x14 wood snare. My 3x13 Ludwig maple piccolo snare will sound different than my new Slingerland 5.5x14 COB snare. I tune them for specific jobs- the piccolo to be dry and poppy, the Tama to be fat and ringy, the Ludwig to be articulate and yet full...

So no, I wouldn't want my Tama at a jazz gig. It wouldn't be sensitive enough (or dry enough) to catch the subtle sticking that I enjoy. Everything would just sound like a buzz. I could retune it to give me the articulation that I want while still retaining its character, but that's why I tuned my Ludwig to that sound. For a long time, I used the piccolo as a main snare on my "quiet" 4 piece kit. When I transferred it to its new function as a side snare, I retuned it to contrast. Now, I consider my Ludwig to be the "versatile" snare. It has the full sound that I want when hitting hard, but the articulation I want when playing softly. It lacks the fat character of the Tama, but it could easily be substituted for the Tama without losing anything.

I guess that's just a lot of typing to say this- a lot of our preferences are derived from requirements. Orchestral snares need to be articulate in order to accurately perform the pieces written for them. Marching snares need to be SUPER dry in order to overcome the acoustic properties of being outside. Rock snares need a little more ring in order to be heard over amplified instruments. Rock toms needed to be tuned lower in order to match with the low, driving feel of rock music. Jazz toms need to be tuned higher in order to sing through the ensemble. Rock rides need to cut through the mid-heavy guitar volume, so they focused on attack. Jazz rides needed to sustain to fill space, especially in smaller combo situations, so they became washy (and sometimes developed rivets).

Sorry to battle philosophical arguments with real-world examples, but that's just the way I roll. :-)
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