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  #1  
Old 10-24-2008, 12:11 PM
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Default Heads for short-stack toms

I bought a new custom made kit with 5x10 and 6x13 toms. The stock skins are Evans G2 Coated with Genera Reso resonant skins. I can not get them to tune at all.
When I try to tune them the sound is really weird which I assume is because of the shortened sizes of the toms. It's like after the initial hit the tom will echo a loud second note out of nowhere a split second after which I don't like at all. Hard to explain but I'm sure someone with short-stack toms must've run into this problem also.
A side note, I have tried tuning the toms through a very wide tuning range and the sound only appears to stop at the point where the batter skin is at wrinkle stage. And I have also tried the Evans EC1 on the toms to no avail.
Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 10-24-2008, 02:59 PM
fusssion
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

I hope you didn't buy the kit with those sizes NOT knowing you'd like the sound, right?

What wood are these drums?

Always tune the bottom head first, ....then the top....tune a little tighter than the top.

I would suggest maybe Aquarian,... bottoms - Classic Clears,...tops,...Super 2, clear, or coated. The Super 2s are 2 ply, but a thinner 2 ply than most others.
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  #3  
Old 10-24-2008, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

i have a dw collectors 13*6 with clear emperor batter & stockreso(medium weight clear).
It have a tendency to ring but with a smooth deep sound, i dont crank it up too much,just trying to find a low end that i like in a medium pitch.

Maybe you should try a much more heavy skin, like ec2coated with a ec1reso.
you might like the sound with a pinstripe
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  #4  
Old 10-24-2008, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

I don't have short stack toms so I'm not speaking from experience.

I gotta think that 'loud second note' is from the thinner bottom head resonating at a different pitch.

My suggestion would be to put a thicker reso head on the bottom and then match the pitch of the resonant with the batter as closely as possible. I don't know what type of music you are playing but I had good luck with Aquarian Satin Texture coated single ply heads on both batter and reso side.

Another head combo that might work is the new Evans G-Plus and Evans EC Reso. I'm using the Evans G-plus coated on some standard size Gretsch maple toms (12 and 16 inch, '80's) right now. The resonants are the aforementioned Aquarian coated head on the 12 inch and an Aquarian Classic Clear on the 16 inch. They both are sounding great for rock/pop stuff - but probably wouldn't for straight ahead jazz. I have a new G-Plus and EC reso waiting to go on the 12 when the other heads wear out. I'm looking forward to trying them out.

You should check out Bob Gatzens' YouTube and Evans videos about tuning. In one of them he mentions the new EC reso and why a thicker reso head may sound better than a thin one. Although I've said alot about heads, the tuning will be critical as well. Maybe more fussy than regular sized drums.

HTH

Jim
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  #5  
Old 10-25-2008, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

I knew what they were gonna sound like but I just don't like the weird second ring that I'm getting. I'm not concerned about the overtones of the drum, all that is fine. It's just the odd second tone that I'm getting out of them and it's happening with both toms so I assume it is because of the short-stack sizes. The resonant skin being the problem sounds good in theory but I have tried tuning both skins through a lot of different configurations to no avail and I find myself quite competent as a drum tuner.
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  #6  
Old 10-25-2008, 04:53 PM
phil_qc phil_qc is offline
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

If I tune my toms to the exact same pitch (rezo & batter),
I got that "taaaaahhhounnn" sound, the second pitch from
nowhere... But if I tune the rezo head tighter, I got that uniform
tone, one note, clean sound... Give it a try, it works ! ...tune the
batter looser and the rezo tighter... Also, it realy help to have
each head tuned very good with itself (same note at each lug)...

Philippe
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  #7  
Old 10-25-2008, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil_qc View Post
If I tune my toms to the exact same pitch (rezo & batter),
I got that "taaaaahhhounnn" sound, the second pitch from
nowhere... But if I tune the rezo head tighter, I got that uniform
tone, one note, clean sound... Give it a try, it works ! ...tune the
batter looser and the rezo tighter... Also, it realy help to have
each head tuned very good with itself (same note at each lug)...

Philippe
Are you using the same head top and bottom? If you are what your describing is impossible.
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  #8  
Old 10-25-2008, 09:34 PM
phil_qc phil_qc is offline
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
Are you using the same head top and bottom? If you are what your describing is impossible.

Yes, both the same...

When I tune both head the same, I got that double note effect sound...
I don't know why but I thing it's maybe because of the long sustain
and / or the sound of the attack (attack sound is lighrning fast followed
by the resonance / sustain sound)... maybe I'm not to good for explain
because english is not my first language but anyway... I eard 2 notes, like
an echo... Yes I know how to tune a drum...

When the reso is tuned higher, the sustain is shorter and there is more
presence of the attack and less resonance, so I eard an uniform clean
sound that way...

heads: Ambassador front + rear = lot of sustain and resonance

Philippe
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  #9  
Old 10-30-2008, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiehendricks View Post
I bought a new custom made kit with 5x10 and 6x13 toms. The stock skins are Evans G2 Coated with Genera Reso resonant skins. I can not get them to tune at all.
When I try to tune them the sound is really weird which I assume is because of the shortened sizes of the toms. It's like after the initial hit the tom will echo a loud second note out of nowhere a split second after which I don't like at all. Hard to explain but I'm sure someone with short-stack toms must've run into this problem also.
A side note, I have tried tuning the toms through a very wide tuning range and the sound only appears to stop at the point where the batter skin is at wrinkle stage. And I have also tried the Evans EC1 on the toms to no avail.
Thanks in advance.

It's a tuning or head combo issue, shouldn't be due to the shorter depth. Try a G1 or ambassador on the reso it's a little thicker head then the Genera Reso and might just cure your problem.
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  #10  
Old 10-30-2008, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

The only things that can really vibrate in the drum are the heads and the shell. Of these, the only things that really make an audible sound are the heads (before you all attack me, the shell certainly INFLUENCES the sound heavily, but without the heads, it's not very audible).

So... that tells me that the tuning (and head choice) HAS to be the problem. I'd guess that the shorter shell vibrates the resonant head than normal when the batter is struck. This, in turn, sympathetically vibrates the batter more than normal. The two build on each other for a few moments, building overtones, until the second tone that you hear emerges- that's my theory anyway, based on what you're describing.

The solution is a little less simple to pin down. If it is indeed overtones building on each other, you will ALWAYS have that with such thin and lively heads. You can cancel some of it out by tuning them either almost to the same pitch (1 half step off) or off by a tritone (6 half steps off). You might be able to get the same result from nearly an octave off (11 half steps), but the upper range.

Unfortunately, with such lively heads and such short shells, you'll probably not be able to get all of that tuned out. Thicker heads will help. OR, you might be able to manipulate the overtones through tuning to make the second pitch work for you.

Or I could be totally wrong, and could have totally misunderstood your problem. Your mileage may vary.
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  #11  
Old 10-31-2008, 12:41 AM
phil_qc phil_qc is offline
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post
The only things that can really vibrate in the drum are the heads and the shell. Of these, the only things that really make an audible sound are the heads (before you all attack me, the shell certainly INFLUENCES the sound heavily, but without the heads, it's not very audible).

So... that tells me that the tuning (and head choice) HAS to be the problem. I'd guess that the shorter shell vibrates the resonant head than normal when the batter is struck. This, in turn, sympathetically vibrates the batter more than normal. The two build on each other for a few moments, building overtones, until the second tone that you hear emerges- that's my theory anyway, based on what you're describing.

The solution is a little less simple to pin down. If it is indeed overtones building on each other, you will ALWAYS have that with such thin and lively heads. You can cancel some of it out by tuning them either almost to the same pitch (1 half step off) or off by a tritone (6 half steps off). You might be able to get the same result from nearly an octave off (11 half steps), but the upper range.

Unfortunately, with such lively heads and such short shells, you'll probably not be able to get all of that tuned out. Thicker heads will help. OR, you might be able to manipulate the overtones through tuning to make the second pitch work for you.

Or I could be totally wrong, and could have totally misunderstood your problem. Your mileage may vary.
I think you got it... I makes sens to me...

Philippe
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  #12  
Old 11-01-2008, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post
The only things that can really vibrate in the drum are the heads and the shell. Of these, the only things that really make an audible sound are the heads (before you all attack me, the shell certainly INFLUENCES the sound heavily, but without the heads, it's not very audible).

So... that tells me that the tuning (and head choice) HAS to be the problem. I'd guess that the shorter shell vibrates the resonant head than normal when the batter is struck. This, in turn, sympathetically vibrates the batter more than normal. The two build on each other for a few moments, building overtones, until the second tone that you hear emerges- that's my theory anyway, based on what you're describing.

The solution is a little less simple to pin down. If it is indeed overtones building on each other, you will ALWAYS have that with such thin and lively heads. You can cancel some of it out by tuning them either almost to the same pitch (1 half step off) or off by a tritone (6 half steps off). You might be able to get the same result from nearly an octave off (11 half steps), but the upper range.

Unfortunately, with such lively heads and such short shells, you'll probably not be able to get all of that tuned out. Thicker heads will help. OR, you might be able to manipulate the overtones through tuning to make the second pitch work for you.

Or I could be totally wrong, and could have totally misunderstood your problem. Your mileage may vary.
Yeah I was thinking something along those lines also. I ended up putting my EC1s on the resonant side of the drums and although making the drum sound dead as hell, it eliminated the problem. From there I bought some G1 heads and when I put them on the reso side the problem was a lot less prevalent. The rack tom is perfect now but the floor tom is still sounding a bit weird. I've managed to get rid of it by tuning the reso a lot higher which also shortens the sustain A LOT, not a sound I like but a fair compromise. Some Moongel on the reso head is definitely making a difference too.

Where should I go for a floor tom reso from here? I was thinking around the G2 but last time I did that with my old kit it sounded just as dead as the EC1s...
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  #13  
Old 11-01-2008, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkerwood View Post
The only things that can really vibrate in the drum are the heads and the shell. Of these, the only things that really make an audible sound are the heads (before you all attack me, the shell certainly INFLUENCES the sound heavily, but without the heads, it's not very audible).
(Insert attack here!)

I asked a friend who has a short-shelled kit (10x5, 12x6, 14x7 toms), and he said that the only heads that he liked on it were ambassadors (or G1s), coated or clear. He liked the clears a little better. He said that you need to not inhibit the heads in any way (moongel, pinstripes, double-ply heads) for them to sing and sound big. I can't account for this first hand, but it sounds as though single-ply (ambassador or G1) top and bottom might be a solution worth checking out...
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  #14  
Old 11-01-2008, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
(Insert attack here!)

I asked a friend who has a short-shelled kit (10x5, 12x6, 14x7 toms), and he said that the only heads that he liked on it were ambassadors (or G1s), coated or clear. He liked the clears a little better. He said that you need to not inhibit the heads in any way (moongel, pinstripes, double-ply heads) for them to sing and sound big. I can't account for this first hand, but it sounds as though single-ply (ambassador or G1) top and bottom might be a solution worth checking out...
Thanks for that, I was actually planning on getting Coated G1 batters with clear G1 resos, but on a students paycheck it's gonna take a while before that happens.
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  #15  
Old 11-02-2008, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiehendricks View Post
Yeah I was thinking something along those lines also. I ended up putting my EC1s on the resonant side of the drums and although making the drum sound dead as hell, it eliminated the problem. From there I bought some G1 heads and when I put them on the reso side the problem was a lot less prevalent. The rack tom is perfect now but the floor tom is still sounding a bit weird. I've managed to get rid of it by tuning the reso a lot higher which also shortens the sustain A LOT, not a sound I like but a fair compromise. Some Moongel on the reso head is definitely making a difference too.

Where should I go for a floor tom reso from here? I was thinking around the G2 but last time I did that with my old kit it sounded just as dead as the EC1s...
It's funny, I went from a 16x16 floor tom on my old kit to a 14x16 on my new kit. I've been battling a similar weird resonance thing for a while now, and it now seems to have just settled in and gone away. Lucky me, huh?

A coated single ply will be slightly thicker than a clear double ply. You might try that. Also, I hear that Evans is slightly thinner than the comparable Remo head. YMMV.

I just keep several types of heads around for testing purposes. In my music room, I've got various sizes of clear, coated, ebony, single-, double-ply, and muffled heads. I've got ONE Renaissance RA head that I really dig for some drums (only the one, though). When I sell drumsets, I usually swap out all of my good heads with really cruddy heads (usually the ones that were on the kit when I bought it). That way, I can usually check one at least one tom to see if it's the sound I want before buying a whole new set.

I don't keep around a lot of resos, though. I guess as long as they're clear single ply, I'm not concerned (as long as they tune well).
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  #16  
Old 11-02-2008, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

Those are good heads. I won't make assumptions about your tuning capabilities, but would suggest you keep trying before spending much money too fast. Put the drum upside down on a table with a towel underneath to stop the batter head from sounding and tune the bottom head first. Make sure the sound is the same at each lug then do the batter head.
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2008, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Heads for short-stack toms

If nothing works, take of the reso head temporarily.
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