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  #1  
Old 09-13-2008, 02:58 AM
wormtownpaul wormtownpaul is offline
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Default beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

I have both a DW 8000 and a Yamaha Flying Dragon, play on a Fibes maple set. With neither pedal is my beater perpendicular to the ground with it strikes the head. I have to go a little beyond perpendicular for the strike to occur.

1) How important is it that the strike take place at that perpendicular angle?

2) Are there any beaters out there that would address this issue. The only beater I've used that allows for such adjustments is from Axis, but it is so top heavy that I just don't like it.
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  #2  
Old 09-13-2008, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Seeing this, made me go and check and what do you know! Mine is extended just a tad bit farther than 90 degrees.

So I am interested to know an answer to this question....
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Old 09-13-2008, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Well, my kick is tilted back just enough so that the cam does not touch the head. My beater strikes at pretty much a 90 deg. angle. In my opinion, if you're past 90 you are wasting energy cause you have to press down farther on the pedal to actually make contact. ???

IDK, everyone has a preference.
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:21 AM
wormtownpaul wormtownpaul is offline
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Nodiggie,

My fear is that you are right. I love my Fibes maples in every regard except that the bass drum spurs don't allow you to tilt the drum back, thus making the 90 angle impossible to get, unless you use an adjustable beater like Axis, or get something with an adjustable plate like Trick Pro.
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Unless the Fibes have a special kind of drum spurs, why not buy some new ones?
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  #6  
Old 09-13-2008, 04:56 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Ahhh, well believe it or not. I have played on kick drums with this issue. So, I grabbed a 2x4 to "SHIM IT BABY". lol

worked.... :)
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

My old Taye pedal had an adjustable beater head, so it could be flat against the head even though the shaft was not perpendicular to the head. It was adjustable where the beater head connected to the shaft.
As seen in the photo below.
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

my iron cobras have the same tiltable head
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Because I'm a little bored, I made a diagram. This is for the guests viewing the thread in case they no idea what we're talking about!
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  #10  
Old 09-13-2008, 05:38 AM
wormtownpaul wormtownpaul is offline
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Great diagram. But I think what that means is that the tiltable heads like the Tama really won't solve the problem. It's almost like you need a beater head that's a half inch "longer" in diameter so it will hit the head sooner, and hence when it is perpendicular. Anyone know of such a beater?

I don't think I can replace the Fibes spurs, unless I got a complete "spur job" of some sort.
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

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Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
Great diagram. But I think what that means is that the tiltable heads like the Tama really won't solve the problem.
Exactly, the tilt able beaters won't solve a thing, that's what I was trying to illustrate. I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the diagram, lol ;)

(The dotted line is the American border and the beater is the Mexican, you don't want them to cross!) LOL, that was just dying to come out!
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

I'm agreeing with the diagram. It's just that the problem seems more unsolvable to me. It seems the only way to solve it is to tilt your bass drum back so something close to the 90 degree hit occurs. But I don't see that many drummers doing that (although Weckl recommends it in one video), so that can't be what most people do. Or get a beater like the Axis that really does allow you to adjust the horizontal length of the beater. But as I said, in my view the Axis beater really stinks. As I understand their promo stuff, the Trick Pro claims to solve the issue, but ouch, it's expensive.

So even though I'm limited by my drum spurs, I think in practice most people deal with a similar limitation. So the question remains, what, if anything, do most people do about this?
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

I'm not sure how the beater is losing energy. Its traveling in a circle, or part thereof, like the spoke on a wheel and as long as the pressure is the same the energy will be the same anywhere along the arc.
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I'm not sure how the beater is losing energy. Its traveling in a circle, or part thereof, like the spoke on a wheel and as long as the pressure is the same the energy will be the same anywhere along the arc.
Very true, except for this case. As you go farther into this circle, the spring becomes stretched, the farther you go, the harder it is to push.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
I'm agreeing with the diagram. It's just that the problem seems more unsolvable to me. It seems the only way to solve it is to tilt your bass drum back so something close to the 90 degree hit occurs. But I don't see that many drummers doing that (although Weckl recommends it in one video), so that can't be what most people do. Or get a beater like the Axis that really does allow you to adjust the horizontal length of the beater. But as I said, in my view the Axis beater really stinks. As I understand their promo stuff, the Trick Pro claims to solve the issue, but ouch, it's expensive.

So even though I'm limited by my drum spurs, I think in practice most people deal with a similar limitation. So the question remains, what, if anything, do most people do about this?
I've always played with mine tilted. I find that most of the problems come with wood hoops, I've never really had the problem when I'm playing metal hoops.
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:07 AM
wormtownpaul wormtownpaul is offline
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Could you explain why wood versus metal would make a difference?
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:41 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I'm not sure how the beater is losing energy. Its traveling in a circle, or part thereof, like the spoke on a wheel and as long as the pressure is the same the energy will be the same anywhere along the arc.
That sounds correct to me energy is still there.... what I meant to say is "wasted energy" by the drummer. I think I did say that rt? lol
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:45 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

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Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
Could you explain why wood versus metal would make a difference?
never used metal beaters.... but the wood seems heavier and thus, hit harder. But, for me it came with a loss for speed unless I shortened the length in which case the arc was shorter and thus loosing the extra energy..... catch 22 you know?

I remember the wood having a nice slap or click tone to it.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

I strongly recommend against tilting the bass drum to "solve" this "problem." Doing so bends the batter-side hoop, raising the pitch of the drum and making one half of the head tighter than the other. Not good.

Keep your bass drum level by adjusting the spurs so the front is lifted off the ground the same amount as the pedal lifts it. Simple to do: attach the pedal to the front hoop and adjust spurs as necessary. See here at about 5:40. The difference is obvious.
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

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Originally Posted by Ironcobra View Post
Very true, except for this case. As you go farther into this circle, the spring becomes stretched, the farther you go, the harder it is to push.

I'll correct myself, I worded it wrong. The energy is not wasted by going past 90 degrees, but the same power can be achieved without putting as much work into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
Could you explain why wood versus metal would make a difference?
Wood hoops are thicker and wider. It's harder for the pedal to get close to the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodiggie View Post
never used metal beaters.... but the wood seems heavier and thus, hit harder. But, for me it came with a loss for speed unless I shortened the length in which case the arc was shorter and thus loosing the extra energy..... catch 22 you know?

I remember the wood having a nice slap or click tone to it.
Wrong part of the drum ;)
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:02 PM
wormtownpaul wormtownpaul is offline
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

I guess my remaining problem is that given how standard, high end bass drum pedals are configured, this is a problem that 99% of drummers should be facing. The two ways I've heard to address it are 1) to use thinner metal hoops, and 2) to adjust the spurs so, as I understood if, the whole kick is lifted off the ground and the drum remains parallel to the ground, because the resonant end of the drum is raised as high as the pedal is raising the batter end of the drum.

Problems that remain. I think most drummers use wood hoops. Are they somehow getting around the problem, or does this suggest that the "problem" isn't that severe? And second, I just don't see many drummer employing the kick drum off the ground solution. Does this again suggest that most drummers aren't addressing the issue and that it really isn't that severe?

I'm not arguing that it isn't severe; I'm simply confused on the matter.
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
I guess my remaining problem is that given how standard, high end bass drum pedals are configured, this is a problem that 99% of drummers should be facing. The two ways I've heard to address it are 1) to use thinner metal hoops, and 2) to adjust the spurs so, as I understood if, the whole kick is lifted off the ground and the drum remains parallel to the ground, because the resonant end of the drum is raised as high as the pedal is raising the batter end of the drum.

Problems that remain. I think most drummers use wood hoops. Are they somehow getting around the problem, or does this suggest that the "problem" isn't that severe? And second, I just don't see many drummer employing the kick drum off the ground solution. Does this again suggest that most drummers aren't addressing the issue and that it really isn't that severe?

I'm not arguing that it isn't severe; I'm simply confused on the matter.
You should be able to tilt your bass drum up about 3 or 4 degrees above parallel to the ground. This will help the problem without bending the batter side hoop. It may just be that your hoop is to wide, shave it down if you must.

If none if this works, you should decide what annoys you more. Going past the 90 degree, or having a top heavy beater.
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

I think the main question would be, If you have a beater hitting a bass drum head at 360, 0, or 5 degrees from vertical do any of us have the ear to hear the difference. If so why not find a bent shaft or bend one that would make it perpendicular.
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Old 09-14-2008, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

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Originally Posted by Nodiggie View Post
Well, my kick is tilted back just enough so that the cam does not touch the head. My beater strikes at pretty much a 90 deg. angle. In my opinion, if you're past 90 you are wasting energy cause you have to press down farther on the pedal to actually make contact. ???

.
That's a good point. On the other hand, people will increase the throw of their beater for more power (sacrificing speed), which makes the beater farther from the head, just the same as if the beater had to travel at 95 degrees to reach the head. So it's all relative. I don't think it's important if the beater is at 90 degrees when it hits.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
I guess my remaining problem is that given how standard, high end bass drum pedals are configured, this is a problem that 99% of drummers should be facing. The two ways I've heard to address it are 1) to use thinner metal hoops, and 2) to adjust the spurs so, as I understood if, the whole kick is lifted off the ground and the drum remains parallel to the ground, because the resonant end of the drum is raised as high as the pedal is raising the batter end of the drum.

Problems that remain. I think most drummers use wood hoops. Are they somehow getting around the problem, or does this suggest that the "problem" isn't that severe? And second, I just don't see many drummer employing the kick drum off the ground solution. Does this again suggest that most drummers aren't addressing the issue and that it really isn't that severe?

I'm not arguing that it isn't severe; I'm simply confused on the matter.
I would have to question the premise that this is a problem to begin with. When you hit a snare or other drum with a stick, you are not parallel with the head. Where did this notion that the kick beater needs to be come from?

As for the "wasted energy" to push the pedal an extra 1/4 of an inch on a stroke, that's pretty much a moot point. Tweak the pedal to taste and your done. That's why board angle and shaft angles are adjustable.

If you insist on "fixing" this issues there is only one solution. The beater ball has to be of appropriate size to get the shaft parallel to the head when the ball contacts the head. Tipping the drum and using different hoops won't solve anything. You can only get so close to the head before the cam/chain is making contact.
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: beater not perpendicular to ground when hitting kick head

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
If you insist on "fixing" this issues there is only one solution. The beater ball has to be of appropriate size to get the shaft parallel to the head when the ball contacts the head. Tipping the drum and using different hoops won't solve anything. You can only get so close to the head before the cam/chain is making contact.
This one hits the beater right on the head, as it were.

I think we've moved away from a standard felt ball beater in favor of smaller beaters... and of course that will require more distance to contact the head.

I don't think you're going to detect much difference between a 95 and 90 degree angle.

Does any company make a pedal whose beater shaft can slide on the cam toward the head? If so, proper positioning could place the beater shaft on the same plane as the front edge of the cam and chain... and even the smallest beater head should be able to hit squarely at 90 degrees.
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