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  #41  
Old 10-23-2006, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

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=wybasher]Rest assured, the capabilities & accomplishments of all the WFD guys are still quite lofty and I'm not trying to diminish it in anyway. Besides, those guys are way beyond 900 spm so this discussion is not even in the same ball park. Nobody should feel defensive for something that wasn't attacked.
No one made or implied such an assertion. No attempts at mind reading please.

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I'm trying to refute the myth that it takes 10+ years to do this.
This assertion has basis in fact, and helps alleviate what I believe is a myth.

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A couple of things here... not all of the one million kids are deliberately working on speed.
I don't believe so either. I was playing on the common stereotype. Actually I think this number only appears larger because most of the competitive extroverts who post in drum forums are this way.

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So that narrows it down some. (Unless you trying to say that 1 million is the filtered pool of kids from say 10 million of all 12-year olds).
No I'm talking more in world wide terms, where there are far more 12 year olds than that.

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But labeling 225 bpm as supremely difficult would be an unnecessary mental barrier for anyone that's even thinking about trying it.
I contend supremely difficult for a beginner, which is more in line with your most provocative point.

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And finally, regarding the length of time needed to raw speed. In my opinion and experience, the standard advice of starting the metronome at 10 bpm and slowly increasing it (something like 5 bpm each week and regressing backward if there's a mistake) is not very effective. Since this is the most common advice, I can see why people think it will take 10 years to get any decent amount of speed.
Agreed. I think people push this one to stereotype those with high speeds as robots, who spend day and night for years doing only this. This makes detractors feel better about their suspect little bit of everything, not enough of anything approach.

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Instead, I prefer dual speed slow/fast progressions. This goes against the grain of standard advice but I think slow/fast progressions are much more effective for getting your fast twitch muscles to respond. It also encourages relaxation so as not to grip the stick so tight and choke up the inherent speed that the stick already has.
This is my method, and I believe with its validity and obvious results.

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Anways, I think time will prove all this out. Over the next 5 to 50 years, more kids will get exposed to better teaching methods. The percentage of drummers that can crank out 190bpm will steadily increase. You probably see these speed trends happening at WFD already.
Although I believe this, I remain confused as to why it appears that speeds have peaked in competitive situations. Even my 1100s, which you would think regularly attainable on this level, represented the first time in over 3 years by a new guy. Based on recent competition speeds, I think the Mangini match grip record is going to stand for a long time. And if it is passed, it won't be by much. Tim Waterson's foot record, which is now almost five years old, demonstrates the same durability. Traditional grip on the other hand is a different matter. That record will most likely be topped sooner than later, although I remain surprised that Mangini's 1126 has been around as long as it has.

Wybasher, you are a very smart guy who argues respectfully. Are you an educator? Do you have demonstrations of your own playing?

I continue to appreciate posters on Drummerworld, for their willingness to discuss this subject intelligently. In fact this is the only forum where the subject isn't immediately shouted down by mindless trolls with no argument. I also think it's strange that so many other forums call this one a WFD lovers forum, simply because the other points of view are allowed examination. Oh well...
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  #42  
Old 10-23-2006, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

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Originally Posted by mattsmith
Although I believe this, I remain confused as to why it appears that speeds have peaked in competitive situations. Even my 1100s, which you would think regularly attainable on this level, represented the first time in over 3 years by a new guy. Based on recent competition speeds, I think the Mangini match grip record is going to stand for a long time. And if it is passed, it won't be by much. Tim Waterson's foot record, which is now almost five years old, demonstrates the same durability. Traditional grip on the other hand is a different matter. That record will most likely be topped sooner than later, although I remain surprised that Mangini's 1126 has been around as long as it has.
I’ve never seen a WFD so I don’t know the pulse of the whole event. My guess about the speed plateau would be the effort/reward ratio. There’s no Ferrarri waiting and the end of the rainbow for the WFD winner. So bragging rights (and some publicity) may not be enough of an enticement to get more drummers to push the boundaries. Unlike pro sports (baseball, football, etc) with multi-million dollar contracts hanging in the balance --- that type of incentive leads to training through injury, painkillers, illegal steroids, and lots of desperate measures to stay viable in the league. I’d have to think about this more to understand why more records aren’t being broken on a monthly basis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith
...
Are you an educator? Do you have demonstrations of your own playing?
My playing doesn’t have any speed or tricks that people haven’t seen/heard before. Probably one unusual thing is that I play both left-hand and right-hand kits. (I’m not ambidextrous but enjoy the “symmetrical” balance of playing both orientations every day.) From a layman’s perspective, another obvious thing people might notice is that I do a ton of backsticking. Way more than average--- I do it a lot on hihats, snare, and even the toms. This habit arose out of trying to get more sounds out of my traditional grip ---> I often liked to start my fills with the butt of the stick (meatier sound) but finish the same lick with the regular tip. The by-product of this is a zillion stick rotations through one song. I don’t have any recordings online yet but I just got some drum mics so looking forward to putting some compositions out. I try to put that intangible “groove” in the songs so someone like FinnHiggins might find something worthwhile in it.

I’m not an educator but just someone who is intensely curious about the limits of the human body. For me, the breakthrough was studying linguistics. I was able to apply a lot of the ideas about how young children learn to speak naturally. I reused these ideas on multiple instruments and even applied it to diverse physical activities such as learning how to ski. I’ve been thinking about writing a book (or producing a DVD) on my observations but not sure if it’s worth the effort (or if the information has already been duplicated by others.)

Roughly speaking (for the scope of this discussion), there are 2 kinds of muscle movement: strength vs coordination. Doing single strokes is more of a coordination skill than a strength skill. You can’t “muscle” your single strokes to 200bpm. Trying to purely muscle your single strokes will put people at a plateau of maybe 150bpm. On the other hand, doing a benchpress is a strength skill. Sure, this distinction seems obvious and yet people try to apply “strength type training” to improve a coordination skill. It’s a mismatch of training techniques, which leads to slow results and frustration. For benchpress example, to improve the poundage (or kilos for Europeans), you lift some amount of weight with clean motion. After that, you add on some incremental weight slowly and repeat this cycle. This incremental cycle works great for strength (lifting, pushing, jumping, etc). Unfortunately, the “incremental approach” is reapplied to drumming and piano playing as “start at 10 bpm and slowly increase blah blah”. However, coordination (or reflexes) seem to respond better to parallel slow/fast exercises.

But an interesting thing is, the majority of the fast players seem to get fast without thinking about all the academic distinctions I’ve mentioned… they simply stumble on to what works for them. I only mention my academic observations for those that are curious in setting a speed goal (like 225 bpm) but are discouraged that it’s too monumental a task to tackle. Yes, there’s also “musical goals”, and I could babble on for another 10 pages about that… but that discussion is better suited in a songwriting forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith
I continue to appreciate posters on Drummerworld, for their willingness to discuss this subject intelligently. In fact this is the only forum where the subject isn't immediately shouted down by mindless trolls with no argument. ...
I think credit should be given where it's due... the moderators here (Bernhard, DB, NJ) keep these type of arguments reasonble. Wow, I just read the "small kit vs big kit" debate. Golly, do I also have an opinion on that! But I'm gonna stay away.
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  #43  
Old 10-23-2006, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

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Originally Posted by wybasher
I’ve never seen a WFD so I don’t know the pulse of the whole event. My guess about the speed plateau would be the effort/reward ratio. There’s no Ferrarri waiting and the end of the rainbow for the WFD winner. So bragging rights (and some publicity) may not be enough of an enticement to get more drummers to push the boundaries.
Oh there's a lot more involved than just bragging rights... believe it. I have won a garage full of stuff, and have far more name rec than somebody with my current abilities should have. Mangini's distinction as the world's most requested drum clinician comes from one thing and one thing alone.

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My playing doesn’t have any speed or tricks that people haven’t seen/heard before.
Again my thoughts were not based on speed issues. But usually smart people play smart, leading me to assume you are a smart player. Please post if you have stuff.

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I’m not an educator but just someone who is intensely curious about the limits of the human body. For me, the breakthrough was studying linguistics. I was able to apply a lot of the ideas about how young children learn to speak naturally. I reused these ideas on multiple instruments and even applied it to diverse physical activities such as learning how to ski. I’ve been thinking about writing a book (or producing a DVD) on my observations but not sure if it’s worth the effort (or if the information has already been duplicated by others.)
I think many people would be interested in your observations.

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But an interesting thing is, the majority of the fast players seem to get fast without thinking about all the academic distinctions I’ve mentioned… they simply stumble on to what works for them.
That would be true of someone like me, but untrue of Mangini and Tim Waterson.

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Wow, I just read the "small kit vs big kit" debate. Golly, do I also have an opinion on that! But I'm gonna stay away
.
No you should go there. I think I can assume where you probably stand based on your other thoughts.
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  #44  
Old 10-23-2006, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Dudes, Matt? Wybasher? How does this slow/fast progression system thing work - I'm very interested...

Do you mean you go as fast as you can for one day, then slow it right down the next? Or do bursts of speed while playing slowly?
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  #45  
Old 10-24-2006, 03:25 PM
wybasher wybasher is offline
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

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Originally Posted by T-1000
Dudes, Matt? Wybasher? How does this slow/fast progression system thing work - I'm very interested...
This concept actually has been hinted at before in these forums... but it wasn't called "slow/fast progression". That's just the terminology I use because I'm not aware of a universal label for it.

Anyways, I don't know what mattsmith does so I can't speak for everyone. The following answers are in the context of what I do...


Quote:
Originally Posted by T-1000
Do you mean you go as fast as you can for one day, then slow it right down the next?
No. The separation of 24 hours between slow & fast doesn't seem to be helpful (to me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-1000
Or do bursts of speed while playing slowly?
This idea is more like the what I do. I actually first got exposed to this learning method on guitar.

A basic exercise might be 2 groups slow and 4 groups fast and would look like this:
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

It's also very important to do odd-strokes (5s or 9s, 11s, etc) like this:

x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

There are two ways of "progressing" through the exercise. One way of course is adjusting the tempo up. The other progression is adjusting the "ratio" between slow and fast. For example, when you're starting out, you may do 6 slow groups and 2 fast groups. You then work up enough proficiency and relaxation to do 1 slow group and 7 fast groups and eventually 0 slow groups and 8 fast groups. The idea is that constantly changing speed is good for the brain and which in turn, good for the arms,wrists,fingers. Of course, you can always do "alternating" groups, slow/fast/slow/fast etc.

You want to set your tempo so that your "fast" groups are on what I might call, "the edge of sloppiness". You tease your brain with the prospect of "perfect execution" of the fast groups and you give it gradual "reward" by adjusting the ratios upward. With that, I've basically summed up a key idea of effective practice: playing mind games with yourself! That's one of the major problems with the classical "increase 1 bpm slowly until perfection" advice... it doesn't dish out enough "reward" for the brain---you get bored easily---hence very slow results.

When I show this to someone in person, there's some more subtleties I can easily demonstrate but the description above is the basic idea of it.

My apologies to folks who may have thought this was some kind of magic technique. It really is that simple. It still requires work, practice, discipline. But for me, it gets faster results than the "increase metronome 1 bpm a week".

There's another "slow/fast" concept where you simultaneously practice at fast performance tempo (without perfect execution) and at the slower practice tempo (with perfect execution) and have the tempos eventually meet in the middle. This is one of the ideas I got from linguistics.

Couple of points:

Do not take the above literally as some "perfect" recipe. Everyone is different. Some folks may prefer 3 speed categories instead of just 2... "slow, medium, fast" (or 8ths, 16ths, 32nds) and incorporate that into their practice. Do whatever variety it takes to keep your brain engaged. Customize it to how your body works.

Finally, to put this "slow/fast" thing all in perspective: It's not the single silver bullet. This is just one of 5 major training techniques that I used to get speed up. I'll explain the other 4 (odd stroke groupings, weak hand dexterity, etc) in another posting.

That's it... if other people have different ideas, I'd like to hear them. Like I said before, I think there are better learning methods out there, but I don't know what they are. And I'm not going to know what they are unless we all share!
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  #46  
Old 10-24-2006, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Interesting. I'll give it a shot for a few weeks and let you know how I make out with it.

This reminds me of a double bass speed exercise in which you play 2 measures of sixteenths followed by 2 measures of 16th triplets. I've always found that I was able to push the tempos higher on the triplets after I did the 16ths.
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  #47  
Old 10-24-2006, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda
This reminds me of a double bass speed exercise in which you play 2 measures of sixteenths followed by 2 measures of 16th triplets.
Yep, same idea. As I mentioned before, it's not an original idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda
I've always found that I was able to push the tempos higher on the triplets after I did the 16ths.
I'm not surprised at all at this observation.

There are at least 2 things happening here:

1) Pyschological aspect: You alternate between intervals of "I can do this" (the 16th note bars) and intervals of "I can almost do this" (the 16th triplet bars). The human brain seems to respond better to this type of stimulus.

2) Physical aspect: you're priming your muscles (via the 16th note bars) for a burst of velocity (16th note triplet)

Both seem to work together to get faster results. Eventually, you don't need the "I can do this" or the "musicle priming" as training wheels.... you can just execute the upper velocity at will.
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  #48  
Old 10-24-2006, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Great info, wybasher. I think this is what Ian Ballard has posted about in the past.

I'll blend this with the method learned from the Stick Control thread.

Thanks!

S.
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  #49  
Old 10-26-2006, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

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Originally Posted by KCDrummer
Have fun with that, I'll be over here, playing music.
So will I. This is different, though.
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  #50  
Old 10-26-2006, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Okay, everyone's either taken this the wrong way, or I've posted it using the wrong wording.

What I meant was:
240BPM hands (16th-note single stroke rolls)
225BPM feet (16th-notes)


And no, I'm not forsaking making good music - I'm just saying, as an ultimate goal, to be able to play all the above rudiments at that speed.

Cheers.
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  #51  
Old 10-26-2006, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

I am playing music. I meant to say that I would like to achieve 240BPM in 16th-note single strokes (hands) and 225BPM in 16th-notes with feet.
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  #52  
Old 10-27-2006, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

I would like to be able to play like Weckle or Chambers, however fast that is.
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  #53  
Old 10-27-2006, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith

Yes most certainly A drummer playing at 75 BPM can blow a drummer playing at 250 out of the water. But the opposite result can also be true. And quite often the person who blew the 250 guy out of the water, was a drummer who also had a 250 in his own pocket anyway.
I believed so too.

Just curious matt - how long did it actually took you (from the beginning practicing Single-Stroke) to where you have finally develop SPEED say at 200...Was it Years, or months...If years - How many?....and how many hours per day do you actually have to put into practice on Singles during those times. One more thing - you're using Moeller Techniques?.............Just wanna know as I'm lately doing alot of practice to increase my single-stroke speed - kindly let me have an idea....thanks
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  #54  
Old 10-27-2006, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda
When are you going to play some music? Will you be "good enough" only after you can play flam double paradiddles or triple ratamacues with your feet at a thousand miles an hour?
I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.
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  #55  
Old 10-27-2006, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

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Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.
c'mon. you are NOT serious are you?
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  #56  
Old 10-27-2006, 02:30 PM
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c'mon. you are NOT serious are you?
He's the same guy that smashed his DW to pieces with an axe and took to his Paistes with a chainsaw 'cos he sucked at double pedal (from memory). Of course he is!
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by math_metal_182
I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.
Whatever, bro.

I love people that wax poetic about the "good old days". Do you mean those days when blacks were forced to sit in the back of the bus and women were kept barefoot and pregnant? Those days were good for the white male and that's about it.

You're either joking or are simply out of your mind and out of touch with the goal of music.

Music is about communicating an emotion. Elvin Jones did it with a helluva lot less chops than Buddy did. Are you going to tell us that Elvin needed to pay more "chops dues" before he was allowed to play with Coltrane?

Also, I think Buddy would be knocked out of his seat by the technical prowess of someone like Thomas Lang or Vinnie Colaiuta. Bellson and Chapin are two living old cats who know that the bar has been raised. Go ask them.
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  #58  
Old 10-27-2006, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by math_metal_182
I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.


a part of learning is playing live,jamming and being around other instruments. we learn in incriments by experience. we learn by mistakes, we learn by taking risks, all things that cannot be done from behind a pad.

this sounds like a self-defeating standard to live up to, take what you say about drumming to anything in life. all practice....no experience.

its like learning karate for 20 years without ever getting in a competition to actually test out the skills you learn under pressure. 20 years of hitting boards and bricks and drilling techniques against a willing<soft>opponent.

we all have different definitions of "musicallity" and "groove", ones that suit the music we focus on and enjoy listening to moreso than something everyone can identify and agree upon. i feel NO NEED to fit buddy rich's impossibly high standards he held everyone to, even himself..........he was never satisfied with his own playing,mind you. this is part of his personallity that alot of folks couldnt stand.


realistic goals, goals that exist for self-satisfaction and personal enjoyment for playing drums, NOT STATUS QUO<this is if you are not in some drum academy or music school, then its understandable,learning rudiments is part of the instruction>. you need a gameplan that encourages progress, not trying to drill a triple stroke roll at 300bpms in utter fustration...over and over again. some advanced rudiments may not be important right now for you and me while other more simple and pressing issues are probably more important to give the time to address.

confidence, real world experience from which to apply your learning. i know plenty of drummers who dont feel the need to even learn most rudiments who have been in great bands, great releases and great live shows DOING WHAT THEY WANT. it may be simple music, but.....that was the goal, and they execute every time because they are comfortable doing it.

this is my biggest problem.....i get stage fright, i tense up, i get self-doubt........resolving these issues is way more important than any rudiment at any tempo. so me behind a pad for decades never feeling worthy of the title "drummer" isnt gonna change that fact no matter how huge and fast my arsenal of chops become.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:30 PM
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My ultimate speed goal is 408 km/h. I will reach it using this car:
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:32 PM
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Before you ask: Yeah, I am a rich guy. My second car is a Porsche GT3.
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by math_metal_182
I'm sure if Buddy Rich, and all those other jazz greats were still alive they would be horrified with the technical prowess (or lack thereof) of modern drummers. Frankly, yes, you should be able to play all rudiments at any tempo you choose, and if you can't you simply are not fit to jam with a band, do studio work, or play anything even approaching music.

What happened to the good old days where you were forced to practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years until you were let loose on the kit. I've been playing for 21 years, and still haven't progressed from pad to kit.
YA, ok..........I'll pass that on to Dave and Vinnie.........I think it's great to to have a healthy attitude towards technique, but if your gonna wait till your pataflafla's and triple ratamacues are as fast as Buddy's singles, you'll never get to the drumset, I mean we could wright 4 more pages on why the mechanics behind these rudiments just won't allow for that type of speed, let alone the fact that fast rudiments does not equal great drumming.......I think every decent drummer should strive to meet a certain standard of technical prowess, but part of the learning prosses is accepting certain limitations and staying realistic about your goals........PLAY MUSIC!!!
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  #62  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

One thing about math_metal_182's tirade I peripherally agree with, regards his thoughts on modern day drummers. In my own estimation, I think there were more great musician drummers back in the old days. I mean I look at my own heroes, and most of them are dead.

But from the perspective of technical prowess, there are more clean technical drummers today than there were even 20 years ago. As for Buddy Rich, his own obsessions would have kept him on the top of that chain, because he would have simply figured out a way to do so. But if he were to rise from the dead now, he would certainly feel the pressure, but he would also fix the problem...although he would absolutely continue to say publicly that he believed in the inferiority of modern day drummers. Of course none of us can look into a crystal ball, but that's my take on it.

Personally I believe that math_metal_182 entered this thread for other reasons. But we can save that debate for another time.

Hi Rudimental...as I have said before, I practice a maximum of 30-40 minutes a day on speed issues, if at all. To me anything more than that is an obsession. But again...That's just my take.
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Old 10-27-2006, 06:05 PM
philiprst philiprst is offline
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Personally I would love to be able to play a groove at 30bpm. Somewhere below 55bpm my brain engages and things start to go all pear shaped.
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  #64  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

if mathmetal isn't joking i would point out to him that buddy rich claimed he never practiced. he advised that one should play the drums in a band in order to become a better drummer.

warning to all: if you practice only with 2 pads (one for the hands, one for the feet) for about 40 years before getting on a kit THEN you will become an exceedingly good drum practice pad player. as for a kit player you will probably suck. don't believe me? watch billy ward's big time DVD. 80% of what that guy does cannot be learned on a pad. billy extracts sound out of an accoustic kit.

but then who knows. maybe there is going to be a market for rubber pad session drummers in 40 years time...now i'm joking.

j
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Old 10-27-2006, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by philiprst
Personally I would love to be able to play a groove at 30bpm. Somewhere below 55bpm my brain engages and things start to go all pear shaped.

my band does a few songs/changes that are in the 30bpm range, very hard.

practicing tempos like that helps your overall timekeeping.
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Old 10-27-2006, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

to play at extreemly low tempos start by developing silent time keeping mechanisms. this can be waving the right stick in the air above the hat or hitting your left heel softly in subdivisions of the pulse on the foot plate. for more on this see billy ward's big time DVD.

j
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON
see billy ward's big time DVD.

I'll second that -that DVD's great stuff all around, but Mechanisms are such a great, great, concept for timekeeping.

anyway, to chime in again on this one, I guess it really doesn't bother me if someone wants to get so deeply into speed and technique. Whatever floats your boat, right?

I mean, drums mean something different to everyone and your approach to the instrument is shaped largely by who you are. Here's my take:

Some people are ego driven: I don't mean this in a negative way: I think there's nothing wrong with this and I think a lot of the greats were this way. I think, and this is just my opinion, that this is what it is to want to be a "good or great drummer" as a primary aspiration. I think this is where a lot of speed goals/extreme technique stuff comes from -it's something that can be used to quantify 'good' and then achieve it. But it maifests in drummers in lots of other ways too. Not all ego driven guys are or aspire to be 'extreme technique' players. It's more about one's primary motivation being "to be good"

Some people are art-driven: These are people who just want to express themselves and say something -and may not necessicarily care how they achieve this. Some of these people have a lot of technique and some have very little, but they don't feel that their technique validates them as a 'good drummer or not so good' -nor do they really care. These people don't see being a good drummer as an end goal -they see expressing themselves as their true motivation.

Some people are music driven. Basically music afficinados who want to participate in this thing they're so passionate about and just ended up drumming for whatever reason. They like the music more than the drums.

Some people aren't really driven at all, they just love drums and want to have fun.

Most people are a mix of all of these things, in my opinion -I know I am.

I think that's one of the things that so cool about drums -or any musical instrument or art form, really. More than anything a drumset is a mirror that reflects whoever walks up to it. the same drumset looks like completely different things to different people.

...and I'm still holding out for A440 in single strokes on my snare drum.
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  #68  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auger
Some people are ego driven: Some people are art-driven: Some people are music driven.
I don't see these as mutually exclusive. I believe that all great musicians without exception have been all three, and you can't acheive the pinnacle unless you are this way.
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  #69  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith
I don't see these as mutually exclusive. I believe that all great musicians without exception have been all three, and you can't acheive the pinnacle unless you are this way.

Sure -I agree!

The next line in my last post was about how I think most people are a mix of all of these things.

I think, however, the mix is different for each of us -some are more of one thing, less of the others. I dunno, just the nonsense I think about while I'm not preocupied with my day-job, hahaha...
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Old 10-27-2006, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Yanno, this thread has made me evaluate myself a little. I suppose I don't worry so much about being the fastest drummer in the world like I did when I was 17. Now it comes purely from my musical ideas that I want to make happen using the drum set. Sometimes extremely dense segments of music require some blazin' singles and doubles... but I don't think in terms of "is this as fast as I can go?" terms, but more like "can I pull off this wacked- out thing in my head?".

I'm a broken record, but I am adamant about mastering the rhythm scale and being able to play in terms of note frequency (notes per beat) and not worry about "BPM's". A musical composition usually has very few tempos... sometimes just one. However it's more important to be able to play any rate or frequency of notes to suit the melodic and rhythmic necessities of the piece. If you can pull off 17's at 60 BPM... that's 1020 "strokes per minute".

That's a lot!
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  #71  
Old 10-27-2006, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by low-tech
Hands:3562189 beats per milisecond

Feet: same

one-up............
http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/derek250.mp3
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  #72  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamTheater4life

man, i was joking.

good playing by the way.

but now you must feel the wrath of my groovy groove
Attached Files
File Type: wav low-groove.wav (4.36 MB, 274 views)
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  #73  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by low-tech
man, i was joking.

good playing by the way.

but now you must feel the wrath of my groovy groove
all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p

Edit: o and by the way I have another one, from a guy named GEORGE FREAKING KOLLIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/george250.mp3
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  #74  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamTheater4life
all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p

Edit: o and by the way I have another one, from a guy named GEORGE FREAKING KOLLIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/george250.mp3
that was low-tech laying it down, i take it you didnt hear all the polyrhythm ghostnotes in there.....i thought so

you honestly accuse me of programming that, how dare you stoop so low, ive never been so offended in my life. thats just my groove-work too

you should see me with my game face on.
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  #75  
Old 10-28-2006, 02:59 AM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamTheater4life
all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p
Hmmmm, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

See low-tech, when a Roddy audio is played, you're just supposed to lay down like they do over at his site. Didn't you know? (lol).

Seriously Bostic, if this you...great to have you in on this discussion. I didn't even know you posted here.
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  #76  
Old 10-28-2006, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith
Hmmmm, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

See low-tech, when a Roddy audio is played, you're just supposed to lay down like they do over at his site. Didn't you know? (lol).

Seriously Bostic, if this you...great to have you in on this discussion. I didn't even know you posted here.
Nah this ain't Bostic, this is Mikec. from the Roddy forums. Bostic is a cool guy though. but not as cool as me ;-)
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  #77  
Old 10-29-2006, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamTheater4life
all i heard was BUZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! at like a million bpm. sounded programmed also :-p

Edit: o and by the way I have another one, from a guy named GEORGE FREAKING KOLLIAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bosticman.com/bostic/audio/george250.mp3

What is the point of your post? I know that Kollias is one bad mother. We were talking specifically here about all rudiments not just singles.

I am very impressed by the speed of guys like Roddy and George but their feet are nowhere near Lang's. Yeah, their top speed is a little higher but that's all they do. Lang can play any rudiment with his feet. ( For example: Lang can play flam triplets with his feet while laying down flam accents with his hands all at blinding speeds.) His doubles are powerful whereas Roddy and George don't/can't even play 'em. Lang can play heel down or up. He plays accented patterns with his feet IN GROOVES!!!

In other words, Lang has applied his speed to more things than just a straightforward roll.

Maybe you should check out guys like Thomas, Grant Collins and Virgil. It might force you to reconsider your opinion of the state of the art in double kick.

Oh, excuse me. I forgot the proper format...

Maybe you should check out THOMAS FREAKIN' LANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! before you come in screaming about the latest fast metal guy.
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  #78  
Old 11-09-2006, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by wybasher View Post
This concept actually has been hinted at before in these forums... but it wasn't called "slow/fast progression". That's just the terminology I use because I'm not aware of a universal label for it.

Anyways, I don't know what mattsmith does so I can't speak for everyone. The following answers are in the context of what I do...

A basic exercise might be 2 groups slow and 4 groups fast and would look like this:
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

It's also very important to do odd-strokes (5s or 9s, 11s, etc) like this:

x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (slow) (or 8th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)
x x x x x (fast) (or 16th notes)

There are two ways of "progressing" through the exercise. One way of course is adjusting the tempo up. The other progression is adjusting the "ratio" between slow and fast.

You want to set your tempo so that your "fast" groups are on what I might call, "the edge of sloppiness". You tease your brain with the prospect of "perfect execution" of the fast groups and you give it gradual "reward" by adjusting the ratios upward.

There's another "slow/fast" concept where you simultaneously practice at fast performance tempo (without perfect execution) and at the slower practice tempo (with perfect execution) and have the tempos eventually meet in the middle. This is one of the ideas I got from linguistics.

This is just one of 5 major training techniques that I used to get speed up. I'll explain the other 4 (odd stroke groupings, weak hand dexterity, etc) in another posting.

I'd like to hear the remaining four, please.

I've been practicing Stick Control for the last couple of months, followed by your (and Ian Ballards') recommendation. Ians' method of progression from 16ths to 16th triplets is very difficult for me, though. I'm not "feeling" the pulse at that tempo.

Any helpful ideas? Would you please share your other four techniques for us?

Thank you!

S.
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  #79  
Old 11-10-2006, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnhiggins View Post
Hey, it's not easy. I can just about do 30bpm now, but fifteen is going to take a lot of work.. and a new metronome!
not sure if this is me being ignorant but isnt 30 beats a minute rather easy? is it not just 1 every 2 seconds?
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: Ultimate Speed Goals

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwignall View Post
Not sure if this is me being ignorant, but isn't 30 beats per minute rather easy? Is it not just one stroke every two seconds?
That's correct, one stroke every other second. However, nailing those strokes on the money and keeping the tempo consistent is extremely difficult. Just try it out and you'll see for yourself.
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