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  #1  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:30 PM
junior-drummer junior-drummer is offline
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Default Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

.

..simply because they don't know how they are doing it.

Obviously generalizing here


Adding a couple of examples here:

a) friend mine took lessons with his idol Tony Williams, and was totally disappointed: he is my idol, but he didn't teach me anything. He didn't know how to explain the things he is doing.

b) I was totally surprised when talking to one of my idol drummers.
I went to check him out at the BB King NY, we became friends and hang out together. His technique n posture are just perfect, like the most educated drummer. His foot technique is mind blowing! This guy never had a lesson with a teacher ..all self taught.

When i asked him: how do you exercise your ghost notes to get them so perfect? answer: let me think.. i don't have a method.

i switched to a musical question: do you think in 4 or 8 bar phrases when improvising to songs you don't know? answer: wow 4 bars ? i never thought about it ..but let me think... YEAH it makes total sense. (he never thought about it)

This just to say. When you are looking for a teacher don't get just lured by the talent. Make sure they know how they are doing it.

-An educated teacher with less talent sometimes is better.

-Best teacher is a probably a combination between education and talent






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Old 02-15-2018, 01:39 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

This happened to me early in my teaching career. Certain things came naturally to me, so I presumed everyone could do it. (Such as hearing chords and intervals). I soon discovered that not everyone could, and over the years I've developed strategies to help students learn these concepts.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

Playing drums and teaching music are two totally different skill sets. Some can do both really well, but I think some people focus all of their energy on drumming and never think about explaining it to someone else.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

I grew up playing baseball and was in a family with some very talented players. My step dads father played baseball in the majors in the 1960's and my step dad was on that path until injury derailed him. Having such talented people around should be a benefit to a moderately talented, unathletic lad like myself. The problem was they could never understand why I couldn't just hit the ball like they could. It wasn't until I went to a camp and had a real coach show me the mechanics and fundamentals of hitting that I began to actually improve. People with natural talent tends to make bad coaches and teachers because God-given ability is one thing you cant teach. I have never taken a drum lesson, but I imagine that if I did I would want somebody who has to work at it everyday.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Originally Posted by junior-drummer View Post
-Best teacher is a probably a combination between education and talent
I always say, "BETWEEN ONLY the best drummers you have to find out which one is the best educator as well, then study with him". For that is advisable to take a lesson with each.

Oh, by the way, I did just that so I also took lessons with Tony Williams!(and Jeff Watts, Billy Hart, Jeff Hirshfeld, Marc Mondesir, etc.)




Best regards,

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Old 02-15-2018, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

I suppose it's what you want out of a drum teacher. How do you teach feel, taste and most importantly dedication and talent?

I guarantee all drummers at the top have put hours and hours of practice in, even the ones who don't admit it. That's where most fall down when they realize how hard it is to get to a good level and how long it takes.

I was lucky enough to have some great technique teachers, I think that's more beneficial than any other kind of teaching. Sets you up for a lifetime of drumming. Anything else you should be able to pick up yourself if you want it bad enough.

If you did things no other drummer could do and made a lot of money doing it. Would you really show other drummers how to do it? A.K.A. digging your own grave?
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Originally Posted by Richard.Awesome View Post
Playing drums and teaching music are two totally different skill sets. Some can do both really well, but I think some people focus all of their energy on drumming and never think about explaining it to someone else.
Exactly, and teaching is really more about being able to educate. Just because a drummer can play, doesn't mean they're capable of conveying information and motivating the student at the same time. Some of the most famous teachers were better known as teachers than as drummers: Murray Spivack, Roy Knapp, Sam Ulano, and especially Freddy Gruber, all of whom continued to teach pro drummers (long after you'd think they wouldn't need further instruction!) :)

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Old 02-15-2018, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

Teaching requires the ability to communicate effectively. The best baseball players don’t make the best coachs.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Some of the most famous teachers were better known as teachers than as drummers: Murray Spivack, Roy Knapp, Sam Ulano, and especially Freddy Gruber, all of whom continued to teach pro drummers (long after you'd think they wouldn't need further instruction!)
really good point.

Also - would DIE to have a lesson with Tony Williams. Even if I learned nothing. I did take a private lesson with Purdie and it was the greatest thing i've ever done for my drumming. He wasn't "teaching" me persay, really helped with balance, posture, and focus. Who knows where it may have gone with more lessons, I just couldn't afford the cost/travel to figure it out!
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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I did take a private lesson with Purdie and it was the greatest thing i've ever done for my drumming. He wasn't "teaching" me persay, really helped with balance, posture, and focus.
Just watching is sometimes how you learn best. The instructor may not have to really explain anything beyond showing you. Like Ray Parker Jr. once said, "I could take 15 minutes trying to explain it, or 5 minutes and just show you".
Good wisdom there as many tough to figure out drum fills and rhythms I've learned just by seeing the drummer play it.
Once I saw the method, I could recreate it on my own (and make my version of it my own as well).

The fact that you got to see such a great player in action is honorable in and of itself.
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:40 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Originally Posted by mikyok View Post
I suppose it's what you want out of a drum teacher. How do you teach feel, taste and most importantly dedication and talent?...

You can definetely TEACH that, something else is that most teachers just teach some mechanics (at most).

Somehow ALSO most students don´t even realize that learning drums is beyond that (a few mechanics) too, since the example is so huge in that direction.

Behind EVERY drummer is a concept, and that concept can be "broken down" to be absorved and reutilized in yourself, SOMETHING ELSE is if you (or a teacher) can break down the concept.

Analysis not abondant...

Last edited by Alex Sanguinetti; 02-16-2018 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:43 PM
junior-drummer junior-drummer is offline
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti View Post
You can definetely TEACH that, something else is that most teachers just teach some mechanics (at most).

Somehow ALSO most students don´t even realize that learning drums is beyond that (a few mechanics) too, since the example is so huge in that direction.

Behind EVERY drummer is a concept, and that concept can be "broken down" to be absorved and reutilized in yourself, SOMETHING ELSE is if you (or a teacher) can break down the concept.
That's totally true mr Sanguinetti.

Certainly the right teacher is the one who in the past had the same problem that his pupil is having right now. Not the super-talented one who had an easy life.



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  #13  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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That's totally true mr Sanguinetti.

Certainly the right teacher is the one who in the past had the same problem that his pupil is having right now. Not the super-talented one who had an easy life.



.
I don´t know where you infered that from what I wrote, because I don´t think that (what YOU wrote)...for me, regarding that especific aspect you mentioned, the right teacher is the one that can SOLVE the problem, regardless if he ever have that problem himself...

Anyway I wasn¨t before talking at all about that, hahaha
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:34 PM
junior-drummer junior-drummer is offline
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti View Post
I don´t know where you infered that from what I wrote, because I don´t think that (what YOU wrote)...for me, regarding that especific aspect you mentioned, the right teacher is the one that can SOLVE the problem, regardless if he ever have that problem himself...

Anyway I wasn¨t before talking at all about that, hahaha
No it was not for you. I intended two separate things
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

The OP hit the nail on the head. We see this all the time at Drumeo. Great drummer does not always equal a great teacher. To become good at both arts is a rarity.

All that said, you can still learn a lot from a drummer who may struggle with teaching. Just like we judge teachers, we should also judge ourselves as students.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

I would nominate Dave Dicenso as one of the rare drummers who is both a phenomenal player and communicator. He's the man I would want to go to really further my playing.

Also Peter Erskine and Steve Smith.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:36 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

Most people should be worrying about how to be a great student. You don't need a great teacher if you can figure that one out.
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

Would it be unreasonable to opine that the best way to learn how to be a better drummer (or maybe better musician) is to play with non-drummers?
A drum teacher can teach you about specific drum knowledge, and that's good and necessary, but you get a lot of vital lessons playing with and hearing what a bass player or guitar player has to say about the drums as well.
Assuming they're talented and conscientious enough musicians themselves.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

Teaching is absolutely a skill in and of itself. As an example, my son is starting on drums and is not directly motivated by the desire to be great at drums. He does awesome at school because there is periodic tests and grading, and he needs something like that for drums. At the moment he only has the motivation of staying 1st chair in band, and that happens to be a really low bar at the moment. A good teacher would have specific goal and wickets to get through to motivate his personality. His current teacher lets him run the show and imposes no discipline, so I feel like I'm wasting a bit of time and money.

Regarding really good players, I've seen a number of almost hilarious "instructional" videos on YouTube, where the expert demonstrates the technique at impossibly high speeds or levels and my eyes just glaze over. One like this came up recently in a discussion on doubles. "You can do doubles around the kit... or on the cymbals... or between bass and toms ..." etc. With each demo ridiculously out of the league of anyone looking for instruction.

The standard thing seems to be teaching by showing how it looks when you are awesome, then just bringing out sheet music and telling you to do it over and over until you are good. That may be the essence of it, but I personally respond to details like how you can get hung up technique-wise, how fast (or whatever) a mere mortal should expect to get, whether it's hard (e.g. expect to spend several months of daily practice to even get in the ballpark of proficiency) and so on.

I've been watching a lot of instructional videos lately.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Teaching is absolutely a skill in and of itself. As an example, my son is starting on drums and is not directly motivated by the desire to be great at drums. He does awesome at school because there is periodic tests and grading, and he needs something like that for drums. At the moment he only has the motivation of staying 1st chair in band, and that happens to be a really low bar at the moment. A good teacher would have specific goal and wickets to get through to motivate his personality. His current teacher lets him run the show and imposes no discipline, so I feel like I'm wasting a bit of time and money.

Regarding really good players, I've seen a number of almost hilarious "instructional" videos on YouTube, where the expert demonstrates the technique at impossibly high speeds or levels and my eyes just glaze over. One like this came up recently in a discussion on doubles. "You can do doubles around the kit... or on the cymbals... or between bass and toms ..." etc. With each demo ridiculously out of the league of anyone looking for instruction.

The standard thing seems to be teaching by showing how it looks when you are awesome, then just bringing out sheet music and telling you to do it over and over until you are good. That may be the essence of it, but I personally respond to details like how you can get hung up technique-wise, how fast (or whatever) a mere mortal should expect to get, whether it's hard (e.g. expect to spend several months of daily practice to even get in the ballpark of proficiency) and so on.

I've been watching a lot of instructional videos lately.
Agree with all of this. You are totally right that people need some idea of how long it will take to develop a particular skill to a given level, and need to also have emphasized

1. Play it super, super slow for the first several weeks/months, even after you get to the point where you CAN play it clean much faster

2. Continue to play it super-slow as a warmup even after you get really fast and clean with it.

This literally applies to everything in drumming.
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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..With each demo ridiculously out of the league of anyone looking for instruction..

Thats the feeling i got when Dennis Chambers tried to 'explain' something on that latest Drumeo-lesson with him..

The hosts there in general should try to focus more on something being taught, instead of only being impressed with the guest that they have..
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Regarding really good players, I've seen a number of almost hilarious "instructional" videos on YouTube, where the expert demonstrates the technique at impossibly high speeds or levels and my eyes just glaze over. One like this came up recently in a discussion on doubles. "You can do doubles around the kit... or on the cymbals... or between bass and toms ..." etc. With each demo ridiculously out of the league of anyone looking for instruction.
Like this video, where the instructor says, "Now, let me slow that down for you" and then actually plays *faster* ::facepalm::
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Teaching is absolutely a skill in and of itself. As an example, my son is starting on drums and is not directly motivated by the desire to be great at drums. He does awesome at school because there is periodic tests and grading, and he needs something like that for drums. At the moment he only has the motivation of staying 1st chair in band, and that happens to be a really low bar at the moment. A good teacher would have specific goal and wickets to get through to motivate his personality. His current teacher lets him run the show and imposes no discipline, so I feel like I'm wasting a bit of time and money.
Is your son not working on drum grading exams? My boy (14) is learning from the Trinity College drum kit syllabus through his school. And the structure has worked out really well for him. He started playing in September 2015 and passed his grade 6 with distinction in December. (And that’s a two-and-a-bit year period in which he’s which he’s taken time out for a fractured pinky, a broken wrist and appendicitis.) His teacher wants to book him for grade 7 in April.
My boy is competitive, goal-oriented and the impending exams are what keep him focused enough to spend half an hour or more a day practicing. No way that he would have made that kind of progress with his personality and less structured teaching. It’s hard to believe that any teaching is a waste of money, but you should talk to your son’s teacher about grading exams.
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Like this video, where the instructor says, "Now, let me slow that down for you" and then actually plays *faster* ::facepalm::
But that is a joke he is making (may be not so noticeable, because he doesn´t smile enough?), right after that he NOT ONLY plays it much slower, the transcription is there at the screen as he plays, have you seen the whole VIDEO?
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:54 AM
martianmambo martianmambo is offline
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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But that is a joke he is making (may be not so noticeable, because he doesn´t smile enough?), right after that he NOT ONLY plays it much slower, the transcription is there at the screen as he plays, have you seen the whole VIDEO?
Yes, I have seen the whole video. If that's a joke, then it's a pretty lousy one ::rolls eyes::
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Is your son not working on drum grading exams? My boy (14) is learning from the Trinity College drum kit syllabus through his school. And the structure has worked out really well for him. He started playing in September 2015 and passed his grade 6 with distinction in December. (And that’s a two-and-a-bit year period in which he’s which he’s taken time out for a fractured pinky, a broken wrist and appendicitis.) His teacher wants to book him for grade 7 in April.
My boy is competitive, goal-oriented and the impending exams are what keep him focused enough to spend half an hour or more a day practicing. No way that he would have made that kind of progress with his personality and less structured teaching. It’s hard to believe that any teaching is a waste of money, but you should talk to your son’s teacher about grading exams.
Sounds like you are in a great program. My son is 13 and there is one band teacher for 50 kids or whatever it is. It's kind of like pre-marching band, so no real emphasis on kit. I don't get the sense that he gets any real lessons in class, or very little. Thus he can be first chair just because he takes lessons at all. I'm not too worried about it though. Drums are my thing and I encouraged him to pick percussion (especially since I wished I started earlier and got my fundamentals down at the beginning), but it may not be his thing. I will look into structured programs though, maybe suggest something to his teacher.
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Sometimes the most talented drummers can be the worse teachers ever

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Yes, I have seen the whole video. If that's a joke, then it's a pretty lousy one ::rolls eyes::
Man, it´s very evident, a second after playing fast he plays the whole thing really slow, plays and explains separately the different sections, and it´s AT THE SAME TIME transcribed ON SCREEN.

THE VIDEO ON QUESTION: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdH...ature=youtu.be

Last edited by Alex Sanguinetti; 02-21-2018 at 10:24 PM.
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