DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Technique

Drum Technique Tips - Tricks - Practice - Rudiments - Educational DVDs & Books.....

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 02-20-2018, 12:56 PM
Mighty_Joker's Avatar
Mighty_Joker Mighty_Joker is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 848
Default Input on solo phrasing like *this*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2evrkYlCU

Here is a solo by a friend of mine based in the US, Fabrizio Cavallaro. I have studied with him before, and hope to do so again.

I'm curious about his style - to me, it seems a very American, particularly Berkeley based style. Fabrizio, of course, studied at Berkeley.

where does this type of phrasing come from - the rhythms are difficult to follow, and the phrasing seems random yet refined and controlled.

I know this isn't to everyone's tastes, and I don't want to start a debate on that - I'm looking instead for some information regarding this style, how it is approached, any particular concepts or pieces of educational material? Nobody in the UK plays like this, but I aim to change that!

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-20-2018, 02:27 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,656
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Very good player. It screams Weckl to me.

The Latin-songo-ish feel with some 8th note triplets thrown in, the sextuplets around the snare and toms, the crashes (sans bass drums) on the "ee"s and "ah"s, the cowbell -- maybe Joel Rosenblatt as well.

The HHBBHH-BBHHBB lick that he moves around the kit in sextuplets (starts at about 0:48) -- I've seen Weckl do a similar thing with RLB (or LRB) on an instructional video that I found on YouTube but can't find anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-20-2018, 04:53 PM
Mighty_Joker's Avatar
Mighty_Joker Mighty_Joker is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 848
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Very good player. It screams Weckl to me.

The Latin-songo-ish feel with some 8th note triplets thrown in, the sextuplets around the snare and toms, the crashes (sans bass drums) on the "ee"s and "ah"s, the cowbell -- maybe Joel Rosenblatt as well.

The HHBBHH-BBHHBB lick that he moves around the kit in sextuplets (starts at about 0:48) -- I've seen Weckl do a similar thing with RLB (or LRB) on an instructional video that I found on YouTube but can't find anymore.
He is an exceptional player, and young as well (early 20s). I hear there Weckl influences, and he’s a big Vinnie fan too. Is this typical of a particular paradigm in American/modern drum kit playing? Where are these players learning these phrases and rhythms? Surely mimicking Weckl can only get you so far. There’s got to be a high degree of rhythmic awareness going on here.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:14 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,656
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
Is this typical of a particular paradigm in American/modern drum kit playing? Where are these players learning these phrases and rhythms?
Vinnie and Weckl are very influential. Vinnie, having come from Berkley/Chaffee, and Weckl, being from and working in the New England/Boston/NYC area -- their influence and tradition is certainly carried on at Berkley. The drummers there are learning from transcribing for themselves, and from teachers who themselves transcribed and copied.

https://youtu.be/DodLJhl9V38?list=PL...HchFV0G5K&t=79

It's pretty common, when playing a Latin/montuno feel, to momentarily shift into triplets, and get into a quasi-Afro-cuban 6/8 clave style, which is what your guy is doing (albeit briefly) near the beginning of his solo. It's definitely the sort of thing you would hear players do at Berkley.

https://youtu.be/O-iP3w0OGpM?t=682

Here's Vinnie (w/Chick Corea) shifting from an Afro-Cuban 6/8 clave into a 4/4 Brazilian feel, and then back again.

Quote:
Surely mimicking Weckl can only get you so far
Well, yeah. But transcribing, with the help of the Berkley instructors, would help you to close the gap.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:44 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,027
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Pretty standard free-time fusion solo, very post-Weckl. I would be looking at Gary Chaffee's books if you want to cop that-- his sticking system and his linear system. And do a lot of paradiddle-diddles and 6-stroke rolls with bass drum added.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:48 PM
Mighty_Joker's Avatar
Mighty_Joker Mighty_Joker is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 848
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Pretty standard free-time fusion solo, very post-Weckl. I would be looking at Gary Chaffee's books if you want to cop that-- his sticking system and his linear system. And do a lot of paradiddle-diddles and 6-stroke rolls with bass drum added.
Thanks for the input. I've been working with the Chaffee material for years (I even did a series of videos on them). I'm not really asking about the technical material used here, more the conceptualisation of soloing and the use of phrasing. I'm wondering where it emerged, and where it's popular.

What do you mean by free time? This is to tempo within the song, and I don't think it's fair to say "pretty standard".
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:59 PM
Alex Sanguinetti's Avatar
Alex Sanguinetti Alex Sanguinetti is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Valencia, Spain (Espaņa)
Posts: 445
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
...and where it's popular...
Itīs very popular since the 80īs already...all over the world
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-20-2018, 06:27 PM
Hollywood Jim's Avatar
Hollywood Jim Hollywood Jim is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 3,660
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

This thread brings up an interesting subject that I have always wondered about. As drummers, after we have learned many of the basic rhythm patterns; where exactly do the fills and solos we play and the new rhythms we create come from? What I mean is we first have to have something in our mind before we can play it. Of course written drum parts on drum charts are played as written. But someone has to write those parts to begin with. Where do the drum patterns we play come from?

Suppose your band has just written a new song. And you are creating the drum part for the song. There is a transition point in the song that calls for a drum fill of some sort. What do you hear in your head at that point? Where does the drum fill come from? I think it is a combination of what music you have been listening to your whole life. It also depends on how much music you listen to and more importantly how you listen to that music.

For instance my band just wrote a new song. Parts of the song, the verses only, call for a Half Time Shuffle type rhythm. Or something similar to the Purdie Shuffle. So I came up with a modified Half Time Shuffle for those parts. I would have never come up with that beat without having listened to Rosanna by Toto many times. I have always liked that song. The new song my band wrote uses a similar bass pattern during the verses. I was the first drummer to ever play this newly created song. So while playing the song the Half Time Shuffle came into my head. I heard it as I played the song for the first time.

So my point is, I think our drumming style is made up of three things. 1. The rhythm patterns we learn. For instance if we study a standard mambo drum pattern and learn how to play it, then it becomes a pattern we have in your arsenal. 2. The kinds of music we listen to. And how much of it we listen to, the volume. 3. How we listen to music. For instance do we hear all of the individual instruments in the song? Do we hear how the melody and the words of a song go together? Do we feel the emotion of the song? Can we hear the drum part isolated from the song as we listen?
I believe these three things create the voices in our head when it comes to playing the drums. The drum parts must first be heard in our head before we can play them. And this is why every drummer plays a little bit differently. No two are exactly the same. We all listen to music differently.

Am I correct with my theories on this?




.
__________________
"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable." - Beethoven
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-20-2018, 06:31 PM
Mighty_Joker's Avatar
Mighty_Joker Mighty_Joker is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 848
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
This thread brings up an interesting subject that I have always wondered about. As drummers, after we have learned many of the basic rhythm patterns; where exactly do the fills and solos we play and the new rhythms we create come from? What I mean is we first have to have something in our mind before we can play it. Of course written drum parts on drum charts are played as written. But someone has to write those parts to begin with. Where do the drum patterns we play come from?

Suppose your band has just written a new song. And you are creating the drum part for the song. There is a transition point in the song that calls for a drum fill of some sort. What do you hear in your head at that point? Where does the drum fill come from? I think it is a combination of what music you have been listening to your whole life. It also depends on how much music you listen to and more importantly how you listen to that music.

For instance my band just wrote a new song. Parts of the song, the verses only, call for a Half Time Shuffle type rhythm. Or something similar to the Purdie Shuffle. So I came up with a modified Half Time Shuffle for those parts. I would have never come up with that beat without having listened to Rosanna by Toto many times. I have always liked that song. The new song my band wrote uses a similar bass pattern during the verses. I was the first drummer to ever play this newly created song. So while playing the song the Half Time Shuffle came into my head. I heard it as I played the song for the first time.

So my point is, I think our drumming style is made up of three things. 1. The rhythm patterns we learn. For instance if we study a standard mambo drum pattern and learn how to play it, then it becomes a pattern we have in your arsenal. 2. The kinds of music we listen to. And how much of it we listen to, the volume. 3. How we listen to music. For instance do we hear all of the individual instruments in the song? Do we hear how the melody and the words of a song go together? Do we feel the emotion of the song? Can we hear the drum part isolated from the song as we listen?
I believe these three things create the voices in our head when it comes to playing the drums. The drum parts must first be heard in our head before we can play them. And this is why every drummer plays a little bit differently. No two are exactly the same. We all listen to music differently.

Am I correct with my theories on this?




.


I think you're absolutely right. Our past experiences and listening history will have a massive impact on what we play.

I'm wondering if this is what could be described as a "Berkley" style of drumming. Very Vinnie-esque, fusion based... is this a new breed of drummer particular to LA and the west coast? Would drummers like me in Europe ever arrive at this style without the influence of places like Berkley?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-20-2018, 06:46 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,656
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
Would drummers like me in Europe ever arrive at this style without the influence of places like Berkley?
Berkley, sure, but also MI (Musicians Institute) and PIT in LA. These places worship(ed) at the altar of Latin-fusion music for many years, particularly during the 80s and 90s.

I think also (and I may be wrong) that European audiences have been extremely receptive to fusion music in general. I was in France for a few months in the 90s, and even near Lyon there was a well-attended fusion concert.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-20-2018, 06:57 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,656
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

You know, it was probably Steve Gadd that popularized the Latin/Brazilian thing, more than anyone else. After hearing Late In The Evening with Paul Simon, Weckl and Vinnie probably followed Gadd down that path. Weckl even played with Paul Simon after Gadd.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-20-2018, 06:59 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,027
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Oh yeah, I guess it's in time until the end, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
Thanks for the input. I've been working with the Chaffee material for years (I even did a series of videos on them). I'm not really asking about the technical material used here, more the conceptualisation of soloing and the use of phrasing. I'm wondering where it emerged, and where it's popular.
Soloing with fusion hits, then an open solo in time, with a showy ritard at the end? Those are all standard fusion items, circa 1978-1990. I guess I'd look into Chick Corea and Pat Metheny Group for the origin of this particular thing. It's all based on Steve Gadd, though we're pretty remote from the spirit of his playing here, and more into a slick Weckl or Vinnie thing. The ritard is a Buddy Rich thing, probably.

I'm not hearing anything particular about the phrasing or concept of the actual solo-- it's fusion licks played fusion-style. I could try to analyze it musically, but I don't think that's really the point of the solo.

What are you hearing?

Quote:
What do you mean by free time? This is to tempo within the song, and I don't think it's fair to say "pretty standard".
He's a good drummer, I've just heard a lot of this type of thing, and I'm not hearing anything atypical in this example. That's not criticism.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:10 PM
Mighty_Joker's Avatar
Mighty_Joker Mighty_Joker is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 848
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Oh yeah, I guess it's in time until the end, isn't it?



Soloing with fusion hits, then an open solo in time, with a showy ritard at the end? Those are all standard fusion items, circa 1978-1990. I guess I'd look into Chick Corea and Pat Metheny Group for the origin of this particular thing. It's all based on Steve Gadd, though we're pretty remote from the spirit of his playing here, and more into a slick Weckl or Vinnie thing. The ritard is a Buddy Rich thing, probably.

I'm not hearing anything particular about the phrasing or concept of the actual solo-- it's fusion licks played fusion-style. I could try to analyze it musically, but I don't think that's really the point of the solo.

What are you hearing?



He's a good drummer, I've just heard a lot of this type of thing, and I'm not hearing anything atypical in this example. That's not criticism.
OK, thanks for clarifying. I see what you mean now.

I think this is my problem. I'm not sure what I'm hearing here - it sounds good to my ears, but I'm hearing a lot of notes and rolling rhythms, but nothing I can identify. Maybe I've not listened to enough latin/brazillian/fusion?

I do think it's fascination how places like Berkley, MI, and PIT, have shaped modern drumming, and probably music on the whole. I do think we in the UK struggle to keep up sometimes. We don't have the same collegiate system, and most people can't afford the Berkley etc. tuition fees, even if they succeeded with the audition process.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:28 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,815
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

I know you've said you're not looking for the source material, but here's my story. I heard Gadd playing these rhythms and decided I needed to learn them as well. This was around '89. I went to a teacher who is steeped in this sort of playing. We studied out of this book:



Around this time, Weckl and Vinnie were the "it" drummers and, to my mind, what they were doing all flowed out of taking Gadd's stuff and expanding on it.

So when people say it was really Gadd, followed by Weckl and Vinnie, I completely agree.

The one thing I would stress is that this stuff is about adapting rhythms played in other parts of world on different instruments to the drum set. It's a bastardization (albeit a very cool one) of the original music to fit the drum set paradigm. The authentic grooves are played with multiple percussionists playing separate parts. I mean, I loved the jazz-fusion samba Gadd plays, but it is really different than a Brazilian street samba.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:32 PM
Mighty_Joker's Avatar
Mighty_Joker Mighty_Joker is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 848
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
I know you've said you're not looking for the source material, but here's my story. I heard Gadd playing these rhythms and decided I needed to learn them as well. This was around '89. I went to a teacher who is steeped in this sort of playing. We studied out of this book:



Around this time, Weckl and Vinnie were the "it" drummers and, to my mind, what they were doing all flowed out of taking Gadd's stuff and expanding on it.

So when people say it was really Gadd, followed by Weckl and Vinnie, I completely agree.

The one thing I would stress is that this stuff is about adapting rhythms played in other parts of world on different instruments to the drum set. It's a bastardization (albeit a very cool one) of the original music to fit the drum set paradigm. The authentic grooves are played with multiple percussionists playing separate parts. I mean, I loved the jazz-fusion samba Gadd plays, but it is really different than a Brazilian street samba.

Oh lovely, thanks for this. I am looking for source material; what I meant was I'm not asking about specific licks or patterns being played in this particular piece, more the style in general.

How is this book with regard to Weckl and Vinnie's playing? What is the format, and the approach?

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:38 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,815
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
Oh lovely, thanks for this. I am looking for source material; what I meant was I'm not asking about specific licks or patterns being played in this particular piece, more the style in general.

How is this book with regard to Weckl and Vinnie's playing? What is the format, and the approach?

Thanks again.
Ah, okay, I misunderstood.

I wouldn't say this book covers anything related to Vinnie or Weckl. It's been a LONG time since I cracked it open, but going by memory, very little of it referenced modern fusion drum set players. In fact, the only example I can think of was I believe it transcribes what they called "Gadd's Mozambique," which is something he played a lot.

The heart of the book is spent understanding the building blocks of this music, such as clave rhythms, and how everything revolves around them. The specific rhythms are named and broken down for drum set application. Things like Songo, Mozambique, etc.

Actually, I recently went through the Tommy Igoe Groove Essentials Vol. 1 and he covers many of the same grooves in the World Music chapter. It's sort of an updated version of the same material (along with a lot of other stuff).

Of course, this book may have been updated in the interceding years to reflect other drummers. I just don't know. But I think Gadd was kind of state-of-the-art at the time it was published.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-20-2018, 09:41 PM
Merlin5's Avatar
Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: London UK
Posts: 921
Default Re: Input on solo phrasing like *this*

Hey Jonathan, this guy is phenomenal. Just watched a few of his videos and I'm blown away.

First thing that came to my mind was a massive Vinnie influence. And here's an amazing video of him playing WITH Vinnie so to speak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlqaNz-0OOY
__________________
No drums no life, know drums know life...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com