DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Technique

Drum Technique Tips - Tricks - Practice - Rudiments - Educational DVDs & Books.....

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 01-12-2018, 04:42 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Lower volume rimshots

I’ve been playing with a 90s rock cover band for the past year and things have been going very well for us, but there’s an issue that’s been plaguing me on and off for the entire year I’ve been in the band. After my first couple shows the bandleader/guitarist started complaining about my overall volume. Our setlist is heavy on bands like Green Day, Foo Fighters, Incubus, Bush, etc., so I play in that style- rimshots on most backbeats, riding on the crash cymbals and loose hi hats in the sections that call for them, etc. I backed off the rimshots and hit the cymbals quieter and he and the rest of the band were much happier- until I started listening to recordings of our shows and hearing the snare get totally drowned out by the bass and guitar (mostly bass). I went back to doing rimshots and he seemed fine with it even after I asked if the volume is ok, but at the start of practice tonight before we even started a song he starts saying the volume was too loud at the last few shows.

So my questions are- are rimshots the issue or could something else be going on? And more importantly- is there a way to hit rimshots on the backbeats and keep the volume at a more reasonable level?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-12-2018, 06:37 AM
Seafroggys's Avatar
Seafroggys Seafroggys is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edge of Nowhere
Posts: 870
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Sounds like he just doesn't want to hear drums.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-12-2018, 06:43 AM
MrPockets's Avatar
MrPockets MrPockets is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 831
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

You could show them recordings because what is heard on stage isn't really what an audience hears.
__________________
Drum is fum
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-12-2018, 06:48 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seafroggys View Post
Sounds like he just doesn't want to hear drums.
I’ve wondered this myself, and if anyone’s got a polite and professional way to ask this question I’m all ears.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-12-2018, 06:50 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPockets View Post
You could show them recordings because what is heard on stage isn't really what an audience hears.
I might do that since we have 2 short clips on our Instagram of our Saturday show and the drums didn’t seem abnormally loud in the video. Our singers been complaining about ear ringing (he and I both use in ear monitors) and in general they think our stage volume is normally loud. I have no problem bringing my volume down if the guitar and the bass come down with me but in the past it has not been like that.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:22 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Figured it out- lower tuning and lower stick heights. Also made sure to stay breathing and relaxed- I think I was getting over excited before and that translated into harder hitting. We record at least 1 song from every show so I will definitely share those in case this issue comes up again.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:18 AM
AndeeT AndeeT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 239
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

I'm glad you sorted it! I still have a long way to go to perfecting my rimshot technique and I would love to be able to do quieter rimshots in the future, like yourself.

One thing I did notice from your description of your situation; the band said it was too loud in practice right? By any chance do you play in a small and/or enclosed practice space? It is going to be louder in this environment, so it is natural to back off a bit and 'play to the room' here, and open up when you play live in a bigger space.

I know a lot of people say to 'practice as you would play' but I think we should always strive to adjust our volume to the size of the room.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:09 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 1,656
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

I'm lucky my band loves snare and kick and I could rim shot at full blast all day and they would be happy..

One thing I have been doing is working on my cymbal volume as well.... That is the harsh sound that makes drums sound "loud"

Rim shots can be done with lighter sticks, OR you pull your stick towards you a bit, so your hitting with less of the butt of the stick and more of the thinner area. it will drop it down slightly. Or rimshot with less volume.


If I know one thing from the 6 bands I have been in, it's that guitar players LOOOOOVE to hear themselves. and if they can't usually "the drums are too loud" hahah. I laugh but it's true. It could be a frequency thing or sometimes where they are standing in the room. As everything gets louder It all just turns to mud.

Jamming full volume one day I couldn't hear my toms AT ALL hitting them as hard as I can, when I told guitarist to turn down he said he couldn't hear himself. I noticed most of them stand RIGHT in front of their amp too.... So the sound is hitting them in the back of the leg. If it was behind their head they would turn down. So room position matters. When the amp was facing me, it was full blast at my location so I had to play louder causing both of us to not hear ourselves.


Stage sound and front of house sound are two different beasts. Could YOU hear your rim shots just fine? It could have been a bad sound guy. Did you have any friends in the audience that can give you a good honest opinion? I suggest working on cymbal volume but keep the back beat there with rimshots and see what they say. Cymbals are loud and harsh. If you have good time most musicians appreciate a solid backbeat.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-14-2018, 07:45 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndeeT View Post
I'm glad you sorted it! I still have a long way to go to perfecting my rimshot technique and I would love to be able to do quieter rimshots in the future, like yourself.

One thing I did notice from your description of your situation; the band said it was too loud in practice right? By any chance do you play in a small and/or enclosed practice space? It is going to be louder in this environment, so it is natural to back off a bit and 'play to the room' here, and open up when you play live in a bigger space.

I know a lot of people say to 'practice as you would play' but I think we should always strive to adjust our volume to the size of the room.
He never said anything about the volume at practice but I plan on using a similar technique in practice because you are right- we practice in a small space. His comments were in reference to the last few shows. The last one in particular was loud but the crowd was going crazy the whole time and the primary goal for the night was to play a super tight show since it was our first time in a club he's tried to get the band into for years so he probably thought it was better to raise the issue are practice.

As for adjusting your volume- I'd just work on lowering your stick heights a bit and if your head is cranked tight I'd back it off a little bit. I use a Tama Stewart Copeland model with a Remo muffling ring. Ideally I'd be running it wide open but the ring does make a bit of a difference- especially in smaller rooms.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-14-2018, 07:56 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondbetrayal View Post
I'm lucky my band loves snare and kick and I could rim shot at full blast all day and they would be happy..

One thing I have been doing is working on my cymbal volume as well.... That is the harsh sound that makes drums sound "loud"

Rim shots can be done with lighter sticks, OR you pull your stick towards you a bit, so your hitting with less of the butt of the stick and more of the thinner area. it will drop it down slightly. Or rimshot with less volume.


If I know one thing from the 6 bands I have been in, it's that guitar players LOOOOOVE to hear themselves. and if they can't usually "the drums are too loud" hahah. I laugh but it's true. It could be a frequency thing or sometimes where they are standing in the room. As everything gets louder It all just turns to mud.

Jamming full volume one day I couldn't hear my toms AT ALL hitting them as hard as I can, when I told guitarist to turn down he said he couldn't hear himself. I noticed most of them stand RIGHT in front of their amp too.... So the sound is hitting them in the back of the leg. If it was behind their head they would turn down. So room position matters. When the amp was facing me, it was full blast at my location so I had to play louder causing both of us to not hear ourselves.


Stage sound and front of house sound are two different beasts. Could YOU hear your rim shots just fine? It could have been a bad sound guy. Did you have any friends in the audience that can give you a good honest opinion? I suggest working on cymbal volume but keep the back beat there with rimshots and see what they say. Cymbals are loud and harsh. If you have good time most musicians appreciate a solid backbeat.
How nice would that be...

The band is definitely growing and starting to get into bigger and better rooms and when we play on bigger stages this issue doesn't come up as much- it's just that right now we're playing in a lot of small rooms with less than desirable acoustics. One of these is a cool bar with a big built in crowd but the bands set up right in front of a glass window, which really exacerbates these issues. I've been using Vic Firth maple 5A's- overall I prefer hickory but these definitely help.

Haha that sounds a lot like our guitarist, but the mix on the recording I listened to last night sounded fantastic (snare was the perfect volume, vocals clear as a bell, guitar and bass the right volume) so I can't really complain there.

I've never had any issues hearing my rim shots whether I'm playing them louder or softer. We've started putting bass and guitar through the PA to run the amps quieter which definitely helps. I have no doubt they were too loud at the last show- I just have to remind them every once in awhile that if they keep their amps lower it's easier for me to control my volume. You are absolutely right that the cymbal volume is a big part of it and I think my snare and cymbals were a little loud so I'll just keep an eye on both of these going forward.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:14 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 1,656
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

It's actually easier for sound guys to get a good FOH sound when amps are not cranked. I have to get after my one band that plays dive bars about this all the time.

"THE PA SYSTEM IS WHERE THE VOLUME IS ADJUSTED". haha One of them gets it, the other guy thinks he needs to crank his amp on stage. It just creates WAY more stage noise, causes me to hit harder to hear myself, thus there other guys want to turn up, adding more monitor mix, and the next thing there is either feed back, mic bleed, or it just sounds like mud on stage.

This is what caused my cymbal realization. This happened a few shows back. I have much more "band" and "gigging" experience these guys but the music is fun and they are friends. So as it sounds like this I start hitting harder so I can hear myself to keep time and so they can hear me also. I must have started hammering my cymbals. I didn't really think about it, but a crash cymbal / open hihat in a bar of that size is very loud, even without a mic. So the soundguy would have to keep turning everything up. It got to the point we were feeding back a bit and he said everything was just so loud he couldn't get to vocals loud enough to be audible. They had a huge PA as well so I was kinda shocked, but at the same time looking back it was REALLY loud.


I also was using some monster sticks. I have gone back to 5b's which feel like toothpics and super quiet now lol. I think riding the crash it is a good idea to hold back a bit.

And you won't break as many sticks/cymbals :)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:03 PM
Frank's Avatar
Frank Frank is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 1,385
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

If you want to work on it, you Can develop a lower volume rim shot.

Loosen your grip, lower the stick, reduce the force, and work on it. Completely doable.

[Same goes for cymbal crashes, but that's another story for another day.]
__________________
Pearl
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-15-2018, 08:17 PM
philrudd's Avatar
philrudd philrudd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 380
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

The real question is why does a guy who wants to play in a band covering groups like Green Day, Foo Fighters and Incubus have a problem with volume in any form?

Those are LOUD bands. It's part of their sound. Anyone covering that kind of music should inherently understand that.

If the guy complaining wants to play cafés, tell him to start an Americana trio.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-15-2018, 08:39 PM
Frank's Avatar
Frank Frank is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 1,385
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by philrudd View Post
The real question is why does a guy who wants to play in a band covering groups like Green Day, Foo Fighters and Incubus have a problem with volume in any form?

Those are LOUD bands. It's part of their sound. Anyone covering that kind of music should inherently understand that.

If the guy complaining wants to play cafés, tell him to start an Americana trio.
I know where you are coming from, but I don't know if it translates to what many venues want today.

I know it's different everywhere, but in my part of the world, there is way more volume sensitivity these days than there was a couple of decades ago. Lots of venues are intentionally hiring only the smaller, lower volume bands.

A few years ago, I played in a trio that did lots of Greenday and stuff like that. But we played it at low volume because that's what our venues were insisting on.

In my area, there aren't too many venues where people are going out to focus on music. They are really restaurants, and the venues use the music to hold the food eating people there longer having drinks. These folks want to talk while they are out. The music is just one part of the whole night. So, volume control really does become an issue.

Then there's my age personally. I used to love it loud. As I get older, I am also more sensitive to the volume. Even though I am a drummer, I find loud drumming very obnoxious, and I have spent a great deal of time on low volume technique.
__________________
Pearl
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:32 PM
philrudd's Avatar
philrudd philrudd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 380
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
I know where you are coming from, but I don't know if it translates to what many venues want today.

I know it's different everywhere, but in my part of the world, there is way more volume sensitivity these days than there was a couple of decades ago. Lots of venues are intentionally hiring only the smaller, lower volume bands.

A few years ago, I played in a trio that did lots of Greenday and stuff like that. But we played it at low volume because that's what our venues were insisting on.

In my area, there aren't too many venues where people are going out to focus on music. They are really restaurants, and the venues use the music to hold the food eating people there longer having drinks. These folks want to talk while they are out. The music is just one part of the whole night. So, volume control really does become an issue.

Then there's my age personally. I used to love it loud. As I get older, I am also more sensitive to the volume. Even though I am a drummer, I find loud drumming very obnoxious, and I have spent a great deal of time on low volume technique.
I do understand the practical underpinnings: the kids that loved the volume in the early 90's are now young parents with jobs who are no longer so fond of it.

But there are certain tones a guitar can only get at high volume; certain ways a drum sounds when struck with force. And I think those tones and sounds are integral to those bands' identities. Could Blue Cheer really be recreated at café-level volume? What would Jimi Hendrix have sounded like at 'half' volume? 'Um, hey Mitch...snare sounds beautiful, man, but can you lay back a little? These cats with the scones at table three are getting a little freaked out, man.'

I mean, Green Day was supposed to be the new standard-bearers of punk: aggressive, controversial, counter-cultural. Doesn't a tame version of the band basically undercut everything Green Day was supposed to be about?

Really, I think it's more a matter of the band fitting the venue: sometimes it's a bad fit. Metal bands don't play coffee shops, etc. There are plenty of places my bands are too loud for, so we stick to the ones that cater to loud music. There's plenty of them.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:20 PM
Merlin5's Avatar
Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: London UK
Posts: 792
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Is your snare undampened and have some ringing? Might be worth putting a couple of moongels on. The bandleader might just be finding the ringing annoying giving him a perceived sense of loudness. Drying up the sound might help.
__________________
No drums no life, know drums know life...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-22-2018, 06:02 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin5 View Post
Is your snare undampened and have some ringing? Might be worth putting a couple of moongels on. The bandleader might just be finding the ringing annoying giving him a perceived sense of loudness. Drying up the sound might help.

I've done that combined with a lower tuning and that's helped a lot. Also keeping the cymbal volume down really makes a huge difference.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-22-2018, 06:10 AM
drummindan8484 drummindan8484 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 163
Default Re: Lower volume rimshots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
I know where you are coming from, but I don't know if it translates to what many venues want today.

I know it's different everywhere, but in my part of the world, there is way more volume sensitivity these days than there was a couple of decades ago. Lots of venues are intentionally hiring only the smaller, lower volume bands.

A few years ago, I played in a trio that did lots of Greenday and stuff like that. But we played it at low volume because that's what our venues were insisting on.

In my area, there aren't too many venues where people are going out to focus on music. They are really restaurants, and the venues use the music to hold the food eating people there longer having drinks. These folks want to talk while they are out. The music is just one part of the whole night. So, volume control really does become an issue.

Then there's my age personally. I used to love it loud. As I get older, I am also more sensitive to the volume. Even though I am a drummer, I find loud drumming very obnoxious, and I have spent a great deal of time on low volume technique.
This is a pretty accurate description of most of the places we play at. On top of that, some of these places frequently get complaints from customers about band volume- last night we were informed of this before we even did soundcheck. At that point it's basically keep the volume down or not be invited back and I think everyone can figure out the obvious answer there. The size of the crowd definitely plays a role as well- if it's packed the volume will be less apparent than if there's 10 people in place. The challenge is keeping it to where the music sounds like it should and doesn't piss people off in the process. I think we do this pretty well most of the time but of course some people are always gonna complain.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com