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  #41  
Old 10-29-2017, 07:26 PM
davezedlee davezedlee is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

dead drums can really rob the magic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvdu...=RDA7whiEsV594
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  #42  
Old 10-30-2017, 08:04 AM
williamsbclontz williamsbclontz is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

I'll tell you guys though, if you have some drum mics and nice headphones try this out. Tune the bottom head to whatever pitch you want the drum to sound, and barely seat the top heads. Maybe finger tighten or a little bit past that, but let the head be super dead and loose. In person the kit will sound awful, but mess with different mixing options and reverb etc and you can get some pretty crazy sounds out of the drums through the headphones. I played on a kit like that in studio once and I don't know what he did with the board but I was blown away how he could get that sound out of the toms. It's pretty fun to experiment with
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  #43  
Old 10-31-2017, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by davezedlee View Post
dead drums can really rob the magic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvdu...=RDA7whiEsV594
Or...supply it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_BtsZSf2yM
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  #44  
Old 11-04-2017, 01:28 AM
moxman moxman is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

[quote=williamsbclontz;1529866] Tune the bottom head to whatever pitch you want the drum to sound, and barely seat the top heads. Maybe finger tighten or a little bit past that, but let the head be super dead and loose. /QUOTE]

That sounds like the recording technique some used in the 70s with Ludwig Classic Maples to get that deep rock kit sound.
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  #45  
Old 11-05-2017, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

In my experience playing different different music styles, different venues and working with different sound engineers it's difficult for me to agree with the notion that all more expensive, high end drums are unnecessary and irrelevant in live mic'd or studio situations. I personally by drums for versatility. Drums that are well made with rich tone and resonance without annoying overtones. All things relative, that combo often lends to a more expensive made shell. Now, if the venue or music style I'm playing warrants a more focussed muffled sound, then it's very easy to tune out the resonance yet keep the rich tone even though the note may be short. However, if a rich tone with more resonance is warranted but the drums are a naturally focussed shell or have annoying overtones when opened up, then it makes the FOH's job much more difficult and the drums end up just being muffled anyway. IMO, a less expensive kit is no better or worse than a more expensive kit. It all depends with whatever style music and the venues you play. Buy and play the drums that fit the music style and venues you generally will play and take the time to learn and experiment with tuning. If a less expensive kit will be perfectly suited for you and will allow you to play the way you enjoy playing then that's the best tool for the job...and vice versa.

Regarding backline kits being "muffled to death". I've found that usually comes to two issues. The backline kit simply doesn't sound good and so it's just muffled to kill the sound...or due to the venue and time constraints, the FOH wants to keep their sanity and keep their job as simply and easy as possible. Heavily muffled drums often greatly help with that. :)
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  #46  
Old 11-05-2017, 08:23 PM
williamsbclontz williamsbclontz is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

[quote=moxman;1530760]
Quote:
Originally Posted by williamsbclontz View Post
Tune the bottom head to whatever pitch you want the drum to sound, and barely seat the top heads. Maybe finger tighten or a little bit past that, but let the head be super dead and loose. /QUOTE]

That sounds like the recording technique some used in the 70s with Ludwig Classic Maples to get that deep rock kit sound.
Yea it's a very unique sound. I wouldn't want to use it for a lot of recordings but it's definitely fun to play around with
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  #47  
Old 11-06-2017, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by R2112 View Post
In my experience playing different different music styles, different venues and working with different sound engineers it's difficult for me to agree with the notion that all more expensive, high end drums are unnecessary and irrelevant in live mic'd or studio situations. I personally by drums for versatility. Drums that are well made with rich tone and resonance without annoying overtones. All things relative, that combo often lends to a more expensive made shell. Now, if the venue or music style I'm playing warrants a more focussed muffled sound, then it's very easy to tune out the resonance yet keep the rich tone even though the note may be short. However, if a rich tone with more resonance is warranted but the drums are a naturally focussed shell or have annoying overtones when opened up, then it makes the FOH's job much more difficult and the drums end up just being muffled anyway. IMO, a less expensive kit is no better or worse than a more expensive kit. It all depends with whatever style music and the venues you play. Buy and play the drums that fit the music style and venues you generally will play and take the time to learn and experiment with tuning. If a less expensive kit will be perfectly suited for you and will allow you to play the way you enjoy playing then that's the best tool for the job...and vice versa.

Regarding backline kits being "muffled to death". I've found that usually comes to two issues. The backline kit simply doesn't sound good and so it's just muffled to kill the sound...or due to the venue and time constraints, the FOH wants to keep their sanity and keep their job as simply and easy as possible. Heavily muffled drums often greatly help with that. :)
Not sure I'm with you there fella. I find that more expensive drums actually have more overtone issues, are therefore harder to tune, less versatile and for that you have to pay more?!

In my opinion, almost all overtones are unwanted. I get fewer overtone issues on my Mapex M Birch than I had on my Sonor Prolite. Fewer overtone issues on my old stage custom than my DW collectors/pearl masters etc.

Snares are different, but in terms of expensive kits I need to tune them more, add moongel, spend loads on getting the "right" heads, all for a sound which I find inferior - as in weaker, less full, less punchy.

Expensive drums sacrifice punch and power for subtlety and tone, both of which are completely erroneous once under mics as you cut all that out to make it balanced in the mix.

People just try to sell us stuff that we don't need. Chances are we've already got the right drums for us, marketing just makes us think that we haven't.
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2017, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
Not sure I'm with you there fella. I find that more expensive drums actually have more overtone issues, are therefore harder to tune, less versatile and for that you have to pay more?!
I agree with you that some expensive drums have all those unfortunate characteristics you described. However, not all expensive drums do. ;-) Expensive does not always equate to quality.


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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
In my opinion, almost all overtones are unwanted.
I can respect that. Many drums I've played contain overtones that are unwanted...but when I've played drums that had pleasing overtones which in turn compliments the music....ah, now that's always a treat. :)

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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
Snares are different, but in terms of expensive kits I need to tune them more, add moongel, spend loads on getting the "right" heads, all for a sound which I find inferior - as in weaker, less full, less punchy.
As I stated before. In my experience with some expensive kits, if the music and venue warranted a more focussed or muffled tone then it's very easy to achieve that. If the music and venue warranted a more open resonant tone without annoying overtones, then that sound is also easy to achieve because the kit was designed to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
Expensive drums sacrifice punch and power for subtlety and tone, both of which are completely erroneous once under mics as you cut all that out to make it balanced in the mix.
Some expensive kits do just as you say...but not all expensive kits. I disagree that subtlety and tone are completely erroneous once under the mics. It all depends on the style of music and the venue.

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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
People just try to sell us stuff that we don't need. Chances are we've already got the right drums for us, marketing just makes us think that we haven't.
I totally agree. Certain major drum companies, one in particular, I firmly believe are mostly just marketing bs. They sale thousands of drums every year though, so I don't ever see that changing.

IMHO, expensive drums vs non expensive drums are not what's important. Just simply take time to research and buy the best set of tools for your specific job. Then, take the time to intimately learn about them. Experimenting with different tunings and how the sound changes depending on tuning, heads, muffling and different rooms. Being as knowledgeable about your instrument as you can is such a vital (and fun) part of this journey. :)
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  #49  
Old 11-07-2017, 10:24 AM
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Erberderber Erberderber is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post

Expensive drums sacrifice punch and power for subtlety and tone, both of which are completely erroneous once under mics as you cut all that out to make it balanced in the mix.
Well I've never owned a set of expensive drums, but I've watched a ton of videos on a Youtube channel of a drum shop in the Czech Republic, which has a load of no-nonsense unbiased unprocessed demos of almost any new kit out there. I have to say that I really did prefer the Mapex Mars to the Saturn Exotics. I tried to convince myself otherwise, but I genuinely think they sounded fuller and more powerful.
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by R2112 View Post

IMHO, expensive drums vs non expensive drums are not what's important. Just simply take time to research and buy the best set of tools for your specific job. Then, take the time to intimately learn about them. Experimenting with different tunings and how the sound changes depending on tuning, heads, muffling and different rooms. Being as knowledgeable about your instrument as you can is such a vital (and fun) part of this journey. :)
Very much with you there. I am speaking from an overall rock perspective. I guess

Thinking about it more though, subtlety and tone are most important on a snare. Even then, as soon as another instrument plays, the nuances of these top-end drums are cancelled out by the other instruments playing. Not too often you hear ghost notes on anything other than jazz.

To illustrate my point a little better, have a listen to this:

https://mammalhands.bandcamp.com/album/shadow-work

Essentially, the drums on this record could really be anything. I'm not sure anyone can listen to any of this and say "yes that's a BB or a supraphonic" or a prolite maple kit etc because the specifics of a high-end kit are all eq'd out depending on what style of music you're playing.

Apologies if not really making much sense, it's just what I've realised after owning tons of kits/snare over the years and recording them.
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  #51  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by Erberderber View Post
Well I've never owned a set of expensive drums, but I've watched a ton of videos on a Youtube channel of a drum shop in the Czech Republic, which has a load of no-nonsense unbiased unprocessed demos of almost any new kit out there. I have to say that I really did prefer the Mapex Mars to the Saturn Exotics. I tried to convince myself otherwise, but I genuinely think they sounded fuller and more powerful.
+1 and a thumbs up to you for your excellent ears and taste :-)
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  #52  
Old 11-07-2017, 01:49 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

Attack and punch.

When your playing in clubs, they put on compressors, gates, and an eq.

Rather than boing boing, it goes boom or bang. and gets out of the way.


Having a monitor is a good way to tell, or In Ears. I set my mics up at home sometimes and put my IEMS after tuning to listen to my drums... My mixer has gates, compression, eq etc. It's amazing how different it sounds behind the kit... Even compared to standing in front of it. Adding mics is a whole new thing on it's own.
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  #53  
Old 11-07-2017, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
Thinking about it more though, subtlety and tone are most important on a snare. Even then, as soon as another instrument plays, the nuances of these top-end drums are cancelled out by the other instruments playing. Not too often you hear ghost notes on anything other than jazz.
This is true in many instances. In many other instances though, it's those opportune moments in between the notes when subtlety and tone from having a "top-end" well made drum really enriches the music. Such as in funk, blues and jazz. Having the right tools for the job depends on what you play and where you play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
To illustrate my point a little better, have a listen to this:

https://mammalhands.bandcamp.com/album/shadow-work

Essentially, the drums on this record could really be anything. I'm not sure anyone can listen to any of this and say "yes that's a BB or a supraphonic" or a prolite maple kit etc because the specifics of a high-end kit are all eq'd out depending on what style of music you're playing.
That is a nice recording and yes, I agree with you. This song doesn't warrant subtlety of tone. However, if the next track they were recording did, it would be nice to have set of drums that would be versatile enough to adequately accommodate that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
Apologies if not really making much sense, it's just what I've realised after owning tons of kits/snare over the years and recording them.
No apologies needed, Johno. I totally understand where you're coming from and what your many years of playing experience has revealed to you. You posted some recordings of your playing a while back. Looking forward to hearing more if you're ever so inclined. :)
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  #54  
Old 11-09-2017, 12:19 AM
moxman moxman is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

Regarding cheap vs. expensive drums.. you usually get what you pay for in terms of manufacturing and materials. The sound of the drums can be tweaked on both ends of the spectrum and yes - you can make a cheap kit sound great.. but the 'well made' drums usually have solid hardware that's durable and precision manufactured which can make tear down and setup a snap. I recently used a practice kit on a gig (K.. it was fairly new Mapex kit that is generally great).. but the tom mount holder adjustment screw on the spike totally stripped! So I carried one tom out for nothing. Never ran into this with any of my Yamaha gear.
On the far extreme, my neighbour bought a kit for his kid that was so cheap - nothing would save it..

The other thing with higher end drums is you can get wider tuning ranges. Some of the lower end shells will choke the sound beyond a certain point.
I've never run into overtone issues with drums, except once with a set of Gretsch.. but it had more to do with the owners head selection and tuning etc. I'm a Jedi when it comes to tuning and can get any kit sounding awesome in under 30 minutes (kick, snare, 3 toms).. that's my rule of thumb for backline kits or rentals etc.. but it helps to have good quality material to work with.
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  #55  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

I saw this interesting video yesterday. At 3:33 the solo side by side comparison begins.

https://youtu.be/SgM4ZqgBGdE
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  #56  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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Originally Posted by R2112 View Post
I saw this interesting video yesterday. At 3:33 the solo side by side comparison begins.

https://youtu.be/SgM4ZqgBGdE
Interesting comparison. Though he says in the description the cheap kit is PDP, but that tom obviously has a Sound Percussion badge.

But yeah, I think this video is pretty good for this discussion because you can see those things are really muffled.

Honestly with the full mix I couldn't hear much of a difference. With just drums and bass I could hear the difference even with EC2s, moon gel, and compression.

I actually preferred the cheaper bass drum, but that is more due to the fact I like shallower bass drums.

All that being said, I don't think I'd pay $400 for the cheaper kit and I certainly wouldn't pay $3500 for the Truths either.
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  #57  
Old 11-09-2017, 03:06 AM
moxman moxman is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

Nice one! Ain't the internet great? At 3:57 I can hear the difference between the 2 kits, it's subtle but the Truth drums have more body on each drum and nice snare, the PDP(?)s kick and tom sound dead by comparison esp. the snare sounds thinner and almost tinny. Then again.. $5K for the Truths is way overpriced. is that the drums alone?? I'd sell them and by 2 awesome killer sets for that money.. or even 3 secondhand!
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  #58  
Old 11-09-2017, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

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$5K for the Truths is way overpriced. is that the drums alone?? I'd sell them and by 2 awesome killer sets for that money.. or even 3 secondhand!
If you look in the description he lays it all out. The prices includes cymbals and heads. The Truths were $3500, though still way overpriced.
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  #59  
Old 11-09-2017, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

There was obviously a big difference in the sound. But which I like and which I can afford are two different things.

I liked the Truth kit MUCH more. The sound, the configuration, and (from having played one) the construction are stellar. But I probably couldn't afford it.
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  #60  
Old 11-09-2017, 06:13 AM
WallyY WallyY is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

The truth drums were fine, but didn't stand out to me as anything profoundly special.
The cheap drums however sounded like abject crap.
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  #61  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:12 PM
The Sloth The Sloth is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

Jon Fishman playing his Ayotte drums in a club 20 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCQb...DzdLx&t=19m55s

This is a soundboard recording but the ghost notes come across when you see them live too, whether they play clubs, theaters, or arenas. Now I realize touring bands get to do hour long sound checks and are able to develop their sound over a period of years with their sound man, but it obviously isn't true that all richness and nuance goes out the window once you leave the rehearsal hall or basement.

The main problem as I see it is everyone wants everything to be "perfect." And easy. Oh, and they want technology to make it all better, which is weird, because we're talking about acoustic drums here
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  #62  
Old 01-17-2018, 09:20 PM
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Bruce M. Thomson Bruce M. Thomson is offline
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Default Re: Incredibly Overly Muffled Drums

Reading Bermuda's post reminds me of an article written by T. Bruce Wittet who was a regular contributor to various drum publications including Modern Drummer back in the day. He told of how he went to see a particular drummer; Bob Disalle who was a regular player with Bruce Coburn (lots of Bruce's in this story) and went back stage to speak with him and catch up. Bob Disalle had a style of play on the Cockburn albums that was very rich and deep and definitely played to the song. Wittet tells us that the same old drum kit he had been playing for years was on stage and he was offered a chance to check them out.
He jumped at the chance because he was excited to hear that rich -deep sound.
He got a surprise when he head them from behind the kit, they sounded dead as floppy wet cardboard boxes. When he took his place at his seat in the concert hall he was amazed at how incredible the drums sounded; it was all there. That is how he got his sound, for those records anyway.

https://youtu.be/tGP6zdwmlfc

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