DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:39 PM
We_Love_Lime's Avatar
We_Love_Lime We_Love_Lime is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wichita
Posts: 50
Default Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Hey all,

I am doing a project on Bossa Nova's influence on American popular music during the 1960s and am currently looking at the development of a "bossa nova" drum pattern and its influence on popular music we would not usually consider bossa nova. For instance, the Beatles' "No Reply" or this Doors song, "Break on Through to the Other Side." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r679Hhs9Zs)

Do you know of any other popular songs that would incorperate this bossa nova drum pattern?

I have another related question: Although artists such as Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley (and their drummers) incorporated the clave pattterns into their music and drumming, my impression is that early bossa nova drummers were the first to synthesize all the clave/Afro elements into the modern drumset. In other words, when I hear The Doors "Break on Through to the Other Side" I think of Bossa Nova, and perhaps not Afro-Cuban Big Band Dizzy Gillespie, even though he utilized such rhythms as well. Do you know if there is any validity to this claim?


Thank you,

Rami (Longtime Drummerworld follower/first time poster in 10 years)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:48 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,686
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Stacked Actors comes to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9_vTuymKMs
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-24-2017, 09:53 PM
We_Love_Lime's Avatar
We_Love_Lime We_Love_Lime is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wichita
Posts: 50
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Stacked Actors comes to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9_vTuymKMs
Thank you!

This is a great example.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-24-2017, 11:01 PM
WallyY WallyY is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Boston, US
Posts: 1,689
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

A lot of the songs written by Burt Bachrach for Dionne Warwick in the 60s had a bossanova style.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-25-2017, 01:16 AM
Morrisman's Avatar
Morrisman Morrisman is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,509
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Louis Jordan "Early in the morning" might be a candidate, although possibly too early and not really a 'pop' song.

How about "Little Darling" by the Diamonds?

Some of the Jobim bossas like Ipanema and Wave became mainstream popular in the 60's, but I think you're looking for less obvious examples.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-25-2017, 01:57 AM
Merlin5's Avatar
Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: London UK
Posts: 890
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyY View Post
A lot of the songs written by Burt Bachrach for Dionne Warwick in the 60s had a bossanova style.
Yep, I was going to mention her as 'Walk On By' was the first thing that came to mind.

Also, 'Can't Take My Eyes Off You' sung by Andy Williams sounds like it might be vaguely based on bossa.
__________________
No drums no life, know drums know life...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-25-2017, 02:16 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,971
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Maybe look into the Zombies-- possibly some examples there. I would be cautious about over-committing to your premise-- a drummer using a stock bossa nova-type beat on a rock song doesn't really count as a Brazilian influence. The particular rhythm you're talking about is well known to American drummers as a bossa rhythm, but I don't think of it as particularly important Brazilian rhythm, and definitely not analogous to clave.

The major areas where there was an influence on American music in the 60s were in jazz, most famously Stan Getz, and with pop vocalists like Frank Sinatra-- there you have actual non-Brazilian musicians doing Brazilian styles and tunes. In the 70s Brazilian music made a major impact on how fusion developed.

re: your other question: Maybe-- Cuban-type Latin music had about a 30 year head start on Brazilian as a popular/dance music in the US, and people were playing Latin tunes in bands with drumsets since at least the 40s. But I think Brazilian musicians were quicker to adopt the drumset-- there was actual Brazilian bossa nova using the drumset at the same time as it was becoming popular in the US.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-25-2017, 03:22 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,122
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by We_Love_Lime View Post
Hey all,

I am doing a project on Bossa Nova's influence on American popular music during the 1960s and am currently looking at the development of a "bossa nova" drum pattern and its influence on popular music we would not usually consider bossa nova. For instance, the Beatles' "No Reply" or this Doors song, "Break on Through to the Other Side." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r679Hhs9Zs)

Do you know of any other popular songs that would incorperate this bossa nova drum pattern?

I have another related question: Although artists such as Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley (and their drummers) incorporated the clave pattterns into their music and drumming, my impression is that early bossa nova drummers were the first to synthesize all the clave/Afro elements into the modern drumset. In other words, when I hear The Doors "Break on Through to the Other Side" I think of Bossa Nova, and perhaps not Afro-Cuban Big Band Dizzy Gillespie, even though he utilized such rhythms as well. Do you know if there is any validity to this claim?


Thank you,

Rami (Longtime Drummerworld follower/first time poster in 10 years)
I think Sergio Mendez was hip in the sixties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sérgio_Mendes

Also the Habanero and Tresilo rhythms were there from the beginning in New Orleans.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-25-2017, 04:46 AM
We_Love_Lime's Avatar
We_Love_Lime We_Love_Lime is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wichita
Posts: 50
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Maybe look into the Zombies-- possibly some examples there. I would be cautious about over-committing to your premise-- a drummer using a stock bossa nova-type beat on a rock song doesn't really count as a Brazilian influence. The particular rhythm you're talking about is well known to American drummers as a bossa rhythm, but I don't think of it as particularly important Brazilian rhythm, and definitely not analogous to clave.

The major areas where there was an influence on American music in the 60s were in jazz, most famously Stan Getz, and with pop vocalists like Frank Sinatra-- there you have actual non-Brazilian musicians doing Brazilian styles and tunes. In the 70s Brazilian music made a major impact on how fusion developed.

re: your other question: Maybe-- Cuban-type Latin music had about a 30 year head start on Brazilian as a popular/dance music in the US, and people were playing Latin tunes in bands with drumsets since at least the 40s. But I think Brazilian musicians were quicker to adopt the drumset-- there was actual Brazilian bossa nova using the drumset at the same time as it was becoming popular in the US.
Thanks for the words of caution, Todd. You're absolutely right. I nevertheless hear the Doors drum intro, or the verse to No Reply by the Beatles, and hear it as unequivocally based on "Bossa Nova," for better or worse. I don't know if that's the faulty premise that you are urging me to reconsider, though. I would love to hear more of what you thought of those two examples.

Do you know of any particularly famous examples of Latin drummers in the 1940s? I can only think of people like Chano Pozo or Tito Puente who are not necessarily drumset-musicians per se, but rather multi-percussionists/conga/timbale


Wally, Merlin, and Morrisman, thanks so much for the suggestions. I am looking at less obvious than Jobim/Getz/Gilberto, etc... But the Dionne Warwick and Burt Bacharach, as well as Louis Jordan, Andy Williams, Diamonds, Zombies are great examples.

I appreciate all the thought and help!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-25-2017, 06:32 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,686
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Do you gents think that songs like this could be considered "Bossa Inspired"?

I know I might be in the minority here, being a 90's hip-hop lover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoE5yHMrP0A
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:14 AM
Brian Brian is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 1,424
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Rikki Don't Lose that Number, though it wasn't 60's
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:57 AM
mikyok's Avatar
mikyok mikyok is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tipton in the mighty Black Country
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

The Beatles had a few with very Bossa/Latin influence. You can tell George Martin had a lot of influence in the early albums feel wise. With the Beatles has loads (Did you folks across the pond get that album?) Here's the one's I've found:

No Reply
And I Love Her
Ask Me Why
All I Gotta Do
Don't Bother Me
Devil In Her Heart
P.S. I Love You
Mr Moonlight
__________________
I aint farting on no snare drum
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-25-2017, 01:05 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,122
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by We_Love_Lime View Post
Thanks for the words of caution, Todd. You're absolutely right. I nevertheless hear the Doors drum intro, or the verse to No Reply by the Beatles, and hear it as unequivocally based on "Bossa Nova," for better or worse. I don't know if that's the faulty premise that you are urging me to reconsider, though. I would love to hear more of what you thought of those two examples.

Do you know of any particularly famous examples of Latin drummers in the 1940s? I can only think of people like Chano Pozo or Tito Puente who are not necessarily drumset-musicians per se, but rather multi-percussionists/conga/timbale


Wally, Merlin, and Morrisman, thanks so much for the suggestions. I am looking at less obvious than Jobim/Getz/Gilberto, etc... But the Dionne Warwick and Burt Bacharach, as well as Louis Jordan, Andy Williams, Diamonds, Zombies are great examples.

I appreciate all the thought and help!
Your thread gets derailed by silly British knock offs or other historical side notes, you need to do some research into the Tresillo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tresillo_(rhythm)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-25-2017, 04:14 PM
We_Love_Lime's Avatar
We_Love_Lime We_Love_Lime is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wichita
Posts: 50
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Do you gents think that songs like this could be considered "Bossa Inspired"?

I know I might be in the minority here, being a 90's hip-hop lover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoE5yHMrP0A
Hahahahaha. This is awesome. Thanks for this.

Thanks for the reference Smooth, Miyok, and Kamak.

As to your point Kamak, if I were a smarter man, I would argue that Paul McCartney based the guitar intro to "Michelle" off of Luiz Bonfá. Sounds way mroe likely than his claim he copped it from Chet Atkins' "Trambone"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:29 AM
Seafroggys's Avatar
Seafroggys Seafroggys is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edge of Nowhere
Posts: 882
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikyok View Post
The Beatles had a few with very Bossa/Latin influence. You can tell George Martin had a lot of influence in the early albums feel wise. With the Beatles has loads (Did you folks across the pond get that album?) Here's the one's I've found:

No Reply
And I Love Her
Ask Me Why
All I Gotta Do
Don't Bother Me
Devil In Her Heart
P.S. I Love You
Mr Moonlight
Funny you don't mention I Feel Fine, I would think being the more famous song than the ones you listed it didn't get a mention ;)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:53 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,971
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by We_Love_Lime View Post
I nevertheless hear the Doors drum intro, or the verse to No Reply by the Beatles, and hear it as unequivocally based on "Bossa Nova," for better or worse. I don't know if that's the faulty premise that you are urging me to reconsider, though. I would love to hear more of what you thought of those two examples.
I don't hear anything bossa nova at all about No Reply. On the Doors thing, he's playing a bossa nova rhythm on the drums, but there's nothing else about the song that has anything to do with bossa that I can discern-- same goes for that Foo Fighters thing. Like I say, a guy playing a beat on the drums because it's a known thing among American drummers doesn't count as an actual Brazilian influence. The Bacharach and other things

Quote:
Do you know of any particularly famous examples of Latin drummers in the 1940s? I can only think of people like Chano Pozo or Tito Puente who are not necessarily drumset-musicians per se, but rather multi-percussionists/conga/timbale
Not really. Most of the drumset players I'm aware of up through the 50s are jazz players who adapted a Latin beat for the drums.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog | 2017 CSD! Book of the Blog now available
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:55 AM
Otto Otto is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,506
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

i hear bossa nova influencing the James Brown drummers...I also hear it in "late in the evening" by Paul Simon...and a fairly heavy influence in the writing of Barry Manilow...Carlos Santana is peppered with the feel..."More Than Words" by Extreme...Hard to not see its flavor through "western music".

Last edited by Otto; 10-26-2017 at 05:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-26-2017, 06:36 AM
Big Stu Big Stu is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 41
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

You might find this "a historical perspective on the grooves and drummers that shaped modern music." interesting
http://vicfirth.com/zoro-we-want-the-funk/
when you get to 1959 you can see what they call FAUX LATIN GROOVE FROM 1959:
“What’d I Say” by Ray Charles
Is it Bossa.. not strictly, but I think you can see the influence

http://vicfirth.com/zoro-we-want-the-funk-10/
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-26-2017, 10:38 AM
mikyok's Avatar
mikyok mikyok is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Tipton in the mighty Black Country
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seafroggys View Post
Funny you don't mention I Feel Fine, I would think being the more famous song than the ones you listed it didn't get a mention ;)
School boy error!

I was going through the albums on my phone totally forgot about the singles :)
__________________
I aint farting on no snare drum
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-26-2017, 11:45 AM
hawksmoor's Avatar
hawksmoor hawksmoor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: sarf London
Posts: 165
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
i hear bossa nova influencing the James Brown drummers...I also hear it in "late in the evening" by Paul Simon...and a fairly heavy influence in the writing of Barry Manilow...Carlos Santana is peppered with the feel..."More Than Words" by Extreme...Hard to not see its flavor through "western music".
Absolutely, James Brown's drummers, but especially Jabo. Like on this live version of There It Is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUdG41GtLU
__________________
Today's special is Memphis soul stew
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-26-2017, 12:41 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,122
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
i hear bossa nova influencing the James Brown drummers...I also hear it in "late in the evening" by Paul Simon...and a fairly heavy influence in the writing of Barry Manilow...Carlos Santana is peppered with the feel..."More Than Words" by Extreme...Hard to not see its flavor through "western music".
I was going to mention Simon "Rhythm of the Saints" and Steve Gadd, but the thread specifically asked about the 60's, and I'm not sure about his earlier works, which have a very Bossa Nova feel, eg "Sound of Silence" not to mention "El Condor Pasa" which is a traditional Peruvian song that.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-28-2017, 03:16 AM
eamesuser eamesuser is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 873
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

I think the whole thing started with Jazz musicians incorporating different styles,and the drummers adapted latin dance /percussion grooves to the drumkit,by the mid 50's R+B and do wop acts,The Drifters,Isley Brothers etc started to incorporate latin influences,including the bossa nova.I think by the 60's guitar players would hit upstroke chords on the 2 and the and of 3 and drummers followed that with snare or a rim click.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-28-2017, 04:50 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,686
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by eamesuser View Post
I think the whole thing started with Jazz musicians incorporating different styles,and the drummers adapted latin dance /percussion grooves to the drumkit,by the mid 50's R+B and do wop acts,The Drifters,Isley Brothers etc started to incorporate latin influences,including the bossa nova.I think by the 60's guitar players would hit upstroke chords on the 2 and the and of 3 and drummers followed that with snare or a rim click.
Even Quincy Jones got in on the Bossa action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6A3qT8_vWg

There was even stuff like Percy Faith and Henry Mancini in the late 60s.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw_yBCCDMag
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-28-2017, 04:57 AM
Jeremy Bender's Avatar
Jeremy Bender Jeremy Bender is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gulf Coast USA
Posts: 3,164
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

What about that drum machine's 4 bar intro to Blondie's "Heart of Glass"?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-28-2017, 05:18 AM
rustyfingers's Avatar
rustyfingers rustyfingers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Under your bed.
Posts: 232
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

"What'd I Say" - Ray Charles/Milt Turner-Drummer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rggldf1c6c
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-01-2017, 12:58 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,122
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

I was inspired to look at some tap dancing from the Fred Astaire thread.

I guess the samba + swing was a thing even back in the forties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRZekQWgRlk

One of the Jazz jams I used to go to had a tap dancer that would bring a portable dance floor for tapping. She used to do samba tunes. I always thought that the sound imitated the small percussion nicely, I didn't realize it was a thing.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-01-2017, 02:18 PM
Morrisman's Avatar
Morrisman Morrisman is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,509
Default Re: Bossa Nova Patterns influence on 1960s Popular Music

Some 60's songs with bossa in the title:

Bossa Nova Baby (Elvis)
Soul Bossa Nova (Quincy Jones)
Do the Bossa Nova

Also
'Say a little prayer for you'
'Do you know the way to San Jose'
'Up, Up and away'
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com