DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 10-24-2017, 10:18 PM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Hi guys,

Over the years this forum has always been a good place for sound and wise advice so given that I'm at a bit of a strange crossroads with a project, I thought I'd log back in after being absent for a few years and see what you all thought.

I spent a large chunk of the last 5 years conceiving of a project fusing metal and New Orleans brass. This all came about when I decided such a thing must already exist, but when I couldn't really find what I thought I would, I set about creating it.

I'd never written a song before, but I thought, hey I want it, it doesn't exist so I'm going to have to figure it out.

To cut a long story short, I wrote and recorded a song roping in friends and the odd session player, commissioned a music video and released it online. With no actual band, I took to the internet in order to see what sort of reaction it got.

The response exceeded my expectations. Sure I didn't really sell many units, but the track was played on Kerrang Radio here in the UK (bucket list stuff for me) and the response I've got from random strangers on the internet in general has been really good.

I have 8 more tracks written in various stages of finishedness and whilst I havn't set the world on fire, I'd really like to turn this project into a living breathing band. This is where the problems start.

I'm 37 have a 14 month old little boy and my wife is now wise to the money I've sunk into this project. So I'm reaching the point where I simply cannot afford for this to be just me anymore. In truth it was never supposed to be a solo project in the first place.

So recently I've set about trying to find players locally to me who might be interested in helping write and finish more songs and take this show on the road. Unfortunately I need; 1 sousaphone, 2 trumpets, 2 trombones, 1 sax, 2 guitars, 1 bass, 1 drums, 2 vocals. Which is quite a lot of people.

Two things have also become apparent. 1. it's really tough finding good people despite the apparent ubiquity of good bands on the internet and 2. good horn players are very very sought after.

I've had plenty of horn players from up and down the UK who are interested, but they can all earn a good living in more mainstream bands, so cannot take on a project with no budget if it causes them to miss other opportunities. Now don't get me wrong one or two of the guys I've been speaking to have been brilliant and are attempting to keep costs low in order to be involved. But basically for all of the horn players I've heard back from the project would need to be at a certain level for them to be able to get involved.

Now I have never really had any musical success, but the only way I know how to operate a band is write songs, rehearse and go and play live and see where it takes you.

With this project I feel like I am now at a cross roads where I'm struggling and I don't know what my next move should be. I would very much like to see if I can take this as far as I can.

So, after that massive long story, here's where I'm looking for advice. What would you guys do?

As far as I can see it I have a couple of options:

1. continue trying to put a band of locals together and just hope I eventually find the people I need. Effectively taking the approach that gigging this stuff is the key to getting more people to hear it?

2. Treat it as a recording project, which would allow me to hopefully attract collaborators from across the UK, put a 6 track EP together and see if we can gain enough traction to make gigging it a future goal despite the obvious logistical issues?

If you got this far, thanks for reading!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-24-2017, 10:34 PM
DrumWild DrumWild is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 387
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

It may depend on what makes you happier. For some, playing out is what music is all about. For others, they might like the process, the artistry, and the satisfaction that comes with a top-notch recording.

The difficulty, as I understand it, is that there are musicians out there who cannot always commit, because they have to prioritize paying gigs.

If you go the band route, maybe make it a bit more flexible. Instead of having a hard-set lineup, have a possible roster. Since you need ONE Sousaphone, get TWO on the roster. Then, you can put the call out there, with the hopes that one calls back.

Maybe some players or instruments end up not following through for a show. Perform with whomever you've got. Maybe have a few different interpretations at-the-ready.

I'd think these could turn into paying gigs. Should it get to that point, then the band can be more solidified, if you can get commitments once $$ is flowing.

If you can get the parts on sheet music, then having a flexible lineup becomes more realistic.

Recording goes the same, tracking whomever is available when.

Just a few thoughts. I'm interested in hearing where this goes.
__________________
I don't really feel like I belong here, so please feel free to delete my account.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-24-2017, 10:50 PM
Push pull stroke Push pull stroke is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 1,237
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Have you considered using kids or university students? Some of them are pretty talented. A lot of brass players I know enjoy metal music.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-25-2017, 12:18 AM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ashford, Kent, UK
Posts: 6,378
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Whereabouts are you in the UK?
__________________
PEWFLADCC
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-25-2017, 12:32 AM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,898
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diet Kirk View Post
As far as I can see it I have a couple of options:

1. continue trying to put a band of locals together and just hope I eventually find the people I need. Effectively taking the approach that gigging this stuff is the key to getting more people to hear it?

2. Treat it as a recording project, which would allow me to hopefully attract collaborators from across the UK, put a 6 track EP together and see if we can gain enough traction to make gigging it a future goal despite the obvious logistical issues?
A little of both.

Treat it as a recording project because you will need to have the parts written no matter how it ends up.

Don't wait for horn players etc. Just write and record mix all those parts with software instruments. If the time comes to add real band members or take it on the road, a lot of the work has been done.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-25-2017, 04:35 PM
eclipseownzu's Avatar
eclipseownzu eclipseownzu is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New London, CT
Posts: 1,391
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

I wouldn't normally give advice, but since you asked I will give some. My first inclination is that you don't have enough material to take to the stage. A few songs in various stages of completion does not make a great live show. If what you are doing is indeed groundbreaking then finding covers to fill the set will even be difficult.

My second thought is that maybe this doesn't need to be a "proper" band. Like you said, keep it a recording project and attempt to gain traction through the internet. This is a new world, bands get big on youtube, THEN go out and tour. Its completely backwards, but it is no doubt effective. My daughter listens to quite a few bands who only exist on youtube and they appear to be doing very well.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-25-2017, 05:35 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,569
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diet Kirk View Post
1. it's really tough finding good people despite the apparent ubiquity of good bands on the internet and 2. good horn players are very very sought after.

I've had plenty of horn players from up and down the UK who are interested, but they can all earn a good living in more mainstream bands, so cannot take on a project with no budget if it causes them to miss other opportunities. Now don't get me wrong one or two of the guys I've been speaking to have been brilliant and are attempting to keep costs low in order to be involved. But basically for all of the horn players I've heard back from the project would need to be at a certain level for them to be able to get involved.
It's good that you've realized this. Contact younger, less established players at or just out of university, as first call players or as subs.

You need to make it as easy as possible for all the players to take a gig with your band. Have charts for ALL the material, so that a player could show up with no rehearsal and read the entire gig.

Having charts for everything means finishing everything -- the songs, and the arrangements. You can maybe pay one very knowledgeable horn player to help you with this, so that you can complete the material while keeping costs down.

Don't compete with other established, working bands for gigs. Book gigs early in the week (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday) and make the most of those gigs by filming/recording.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-25-2017, 06:23 PM
BertTheDrummer's Avatar
BertTheDrummer BertTheDrummer is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 656
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Honestly, it might be a bit difficult to put that many people period... not even taking in to account that you are talking about a pretty odd musical genre. On top of that, getting people that are just in it for the money would be difficult because that large of a group would need to charge quite a bit to have enough dividends to pass along to all the players.

All that being said, the musician in me would be intrigued by something like this because it is different and could be interesting. Since, I'm also a sax player, I guess there could be others like me out there that might be interested as well.

I agree with New Tricks though. I don't think you can wait for horn players to come out of the wood work, especially not that many. The nice thing with the internet and technology is that you can collaborate with people all over the world if your wanting to have recorded real instruments or there is some good software out there as well.

I'd also say take a hard look at your arrangements and really see if you need that many people, especially live. Maybe you can get by with only 1 trumpet and 1 trombone instead of 2 each.

Anyway good luck!
__________________
"My music is the spiritual expression of what I am, My Faith, My Knowledge, My Being." - Coltrane
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-25-2017, 10:02 PM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

I'm going to reply one by one so this isn't a massive stream of consciousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumWild View Post
It may depend on what makes you happier. For some, playing out is what music is all about. For others, they might like the process, the artistry, and the satisfaction that comes with a top-notch recording.

The difficulty, as I understand it, is that there are musicians out there who cannot always commit, because they have to prioritize paying gigs.

If you go the band route, maybe make it a bit more flexible. Instead of having a hard-set lineup, have a possible roster. Since you need ONE Sousaphone, get TWO on the roster. Then, you can put the call out there, with the hopes that one calls back.

Maybe some players or instruments end up not following through for a show. Perform with whomever you've got. Maybe have a few different interpretations at-the-ready.

I'd think these could turn into paying gigs. Should it get to that point, then the band can be more solidified, if you can get commitments once $$ is flowing.

If you can get the parts on sheet music, then having a flexible lineup becomes more realistic.

Recording goes the same, tracking whomever is available when.

Just a few thoughts. I'm interested in hearing where this goes.
As a drummer, for me its all about the playing. With this, its strange. I'd just as much love to see it played and become real as I would be a part of it. Plus I have really enjoyed the writing bit, but I miss collaboration and bouncing things off other musicians. So really a bit of both. More than anything I think I've got something special here and I'd like people to hear it.

I like the suggestion of having a rotating roster and being flexible. How would that play with building a fan base though do you think? I mean people are used to a metal band having a solid line-up that they can get to know and identify with. I suppose I could go the mystery route, with masks or other possibilities so that nobody would ever know. But this is part of why I am in uncharted territory. Maybe it doesn't matter having a flexible line up until there is enough money to keep a line up together.

Sheet music is no problem, I have a mate who can help with that. Plus the horns who I have on deck to be hired hands have offered to sense check horn parts and whilst they can't commit to being co-writers they are happy to make sure what I write is realistic and playable for free. I get the sense they really want to be involved more but, well they are pros so they are in a very different situation to me.

recording isn't so much of a problem except for the money issue. Another big reason that I admit is that I'm about tapped out now. Having a band together to share the writing, share the financial commitments and share the promotion and chasing of opportunities is becoming vital.

I'm exhausted trying to keep pushing this forward by myself and I've not actually written anything since putting out Lost Inside. And to be fair whilst the response has been encouraging I havn't really even got anywhere yet and I'm shattered doing this by myself.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-25-2017, 10:05 PM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post
Have you considered using kids or university students? Some of them are pretty talented. A lot of brass players I know enjoy metal music.
I've had a great reception from random strangers on the internet particularly from the US. You guys have an awesome tradition of marching bands, brass is cool to youngsters and obviously metal is also really popular.

For all we have a proud brass tradition in the UK, it isn't as ubiquitous as it should be outside of the traditional brass bands.

I've tried reaching out to the universities near me, but all the contacts I've found suggest posting things on their facebook pages. Which is obviously quite fleeting before people stop seeing it. It's been difficult to get access to those guys. I'm following threads I find though. Other bands with horns, reaching out to friends of friends on social media etc
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-25-2017, 10:15 PM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Whereabouts are you in the UK?
Northeast mate, between Durham and Chester-le-Street. Old Pit Brass Band country, which is why I naively thought it would be a little easier to find people!

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
A little of both.

Treat it as a recording project because you will need to have the parts written no matter how it ends up.

Don't wait for horn players etc. Just write and record mix all those parts with software instruments. If the time comes to add real band members or take it on the road, a lot of the work has been done.
I see what you mean and you are right a little of both is going to work. But as per my post above I need help now. Help in writing, help sharing financial implications, I need compadres I can bounce ideas off, I need the support network of band mates. Even if I could afford to push ahead with just me, at this point I think I would do so reluctantly. i would really like to work with others now.

Plus I have plenty of musical limitations, I've got lucky so far haha. I need talent to help prop me up and fill in my blanks!

I don't want to put out any of this stuff using software instruments though. A metal band with technical passages featuring a 6 piece horn section. I absolutely don't want that to be digital and not playable by real horns. After all taking a business viewpoint of it, that really is the whole usp of this project and whilst it has gone well so far with no live band and just one guy sending emails to promote it.

With digital horns, you could argue it becomes just another metal band.

I genuinely feel like the next short term goal for this project should be to attract a manager. I have been told by two well respected managers when I reached out cold to them, that they would only be interested once it is real. They need to see a live outfit and then they can take a view.

Conversely to that I reached out to my favourite UK metal record label, who surprisingly replied and their advice was to go recording project. but then they are most interested in product. Although I'm unclear on what sort of promotion it would be easy for them to do with no band on the road in support of any release.

So this is what kind of led me here. I feel like this is unique enough to open doors I've never been able to open before in music with previous bands, but there are still roadblocks and I'd like to be able to get past them.

So maybe another question is label or manager? which should come first?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-25-2017, 10:28 PM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipseownzu View Post
I wouldn't normally give advice, but since you asked I will give some. My first inclination is that you don't have enough material to take to the stage. A few songs in various stages of completion does not make a great live show. If what you are doing is indeed groundbreaking then finding covers to fill the set will even be difficult.

My second thought is that maybe this doesn't need to be a "proper" band. Like you said, keep it a recording project and attempt to gain traction through the internet. This is a new world, bands get big on youtube, THEN go out and tour. Its completely backwards, but it is no doubt effective. My daughter listens to quite a few bands who only exist on youtube and they appear to be doing very well.
I totally agree. Covers won't work here. Well the set could maybe include one, but it would take as much work as writing a song in this semi new genre so certainly wouldn't save time. Could be an interesting idea mind you. Again in trying to find an audience for a new metal band, generally my experience is they need to be playing their own stuff and touring the little places and building up.

I agree there isn't enough material for a full half hour set yet. But if I have to continue working on my own to get 6 songs together myself, that at least could be a plan. Like I said in another reply though, I really would like the help and input of others now. This was never supposed to be my solo project.

Yeah I wonder about the youtube thing. I dunno, I'm from the generation just before youtube and it seems backwards to me too! I just don't get how those guys build a fanbase from nothing. Going viral seems like it's just luck to me. If you don't go viral by accident how do you physically get people to go and watch the video?

There has to be a more stable approach to getting some traction. My fear with keeping it a recording project it that once it isn't really a band then it loses some of the "what did you say, a metal band with a 6 piece horn section" allure and becomes "what did you say, some bloke who hired a horn section"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
It's good that you've realized this. Contact younger, less established players at or just out of university, as first call players or as subs.

You need to make it as easy as possible for all the players to take a gig with your band. Have charts for ALL the material, so that a player could show up with no rehearsal and read the entire gig.

Having charts for everything means finishing everything -- the songs, and the arrangements. You can maybe pay one very knowledgeable horn player to help you with this, so that you can complete the material while keeping costs down.

Don't compete with other established, working bands for gigs. Book gigs early in the week (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday) and make the most of those gigs by filming/recording.
I know what you are saying about charts, and I do aim to put together charts. But I absolutely can't have players reading on stage. The look and feel of this band would be shot instantly as a credible metal band. I know where you are coming from and in many cases this would work beautifully. Unfortunately here not only will everyone need to know their stuff, but the horn players are going to have to go crazy in a way that perhaps they arn't used to doing. It cannot be a static and gentile live show with players rooted to music stands.

Excellent idea booking gigs on unusual nights though love that idea and making the most of them by filming them. Perhaps the first couple of gigs could be really targeted too. Hometown, near the manager I reckon I maybe could get to come in Leeds and maybe do fewer gigs that usual, use it to generate content for the internets.

I definately appreciate that good musicians come at a price. I was just hoping that those not already earning money would take a shot at something a little different. Plus looking for people at this stage allows them real input into the songs before I get too carried away and finish things and become precious about them and resistant to change.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-25-2017, 10:35 PM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertTheDrummer View Post
Honestly, it might be a bit difficult to put that many people period... not even taking in to account that you are talking about a pretty odd musical genre. On top of that, getting people that are just in it for the money would be difficult because that large of a group would need to charge quite a bit to have enough dividends to pass along to all the players.

All that being said, the musician in me would be intrigued by something like this because it is different and could be interesting. Since, I'm also a sax player, I guess there could be others like me out there that might be interested as well.

I agree with New Tricks though. I don't think you can wait for horn players to come out of the wood work, especially not that many. The nice thing with the internet and technology is that you can collaborate with people all over the world if your wanting to have recorded real instruments or there is some good software out there as well.

I'd also say take a hard look at your arrangements and really see if you need that many people, especially live. Maybe you can get by with only 1 trumpet and 1 trombone instead of 2 each.

Anyway good luck!
Yep I think I really am reliant on people watching the video (awesome stop motion animation by a very talented animator here in the northeast) and liking the unique sound and becoming intrigued enough to get involved. Shame you live in the US dude if you play sax!

Another vote for the recording project angle. But how do I generate a fanbase with that approach? Do a I need to pitch it to labels in order for them to leverage their marketing. Would labels even be interested in a recording project with no gigs booked and how on earth do I get my foot in the door to pitch to labels with no manager (because I can't gig it and therefore managers arn't yet interested.)

I'm all for building organically, but I can only see how that is done with a live band. The recording project angle I just don't know how to push that forward once an EP say is recorded.

I know the old adage is that good music will travel on its own. But lets be honest giving things a push doesn't hurt!

The arrangements could be altered. The songs in some places wouldn't "need" all those horns. Although they do line up and play some nice metally jazzy chords a lot at times. But again i love the sound of all those horns and I'd be stripping back the USP, so I'd like to avoid that route if possible.

There is a vision in my head and I'm striving to stick to that even if it makes life difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-25-2017, 10:38 PM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

One further thought, has anyone ever had any success putting together a band of people from around the country (or state in the US is probably as big an area) and successfully gigging it? The logistics of rehearsals and stuff can they be overcome?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:53 PM
BertTheDrummer's Avatar
BertTheDrummer BertTheDrummer is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 656
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diet Kirk View Post
Yep I think I really am reliant on people watching the video (awesome stop motion animation by a very talented animator here in the northeast) and liking the unique sound and becoming intrigued enough to get involved. Shame you live in the US dude if you play sax!

Another vote for the recording project angle. But how do I generate a fanbase with that approach? Do a I need to pitch it to labels in order for them to leverage their marketing. Would labels even be interested in a recording project with no gigs booked and how on earth do I get my foot in the door to pitch to labels with no manager (because I can't gig it and therefore managers arn't yet interested.)
I don't think you necessarily need a label. So much of music is moving online via You Tube and other outlets. Unless there is a label out there willing to basically throw a bunch of money behind it and create your band for you, I don't know if that is the correct route. I have to say, if you are expecting a label to basically do all the work for you, that isn't at all how it really works. I've been in bands previously with record deals, and I can honestly say that you probably won't get a whole lot of extra help with things. Yes, you will get some ideas and resources you might not have access too, but 99% of the work will still fall on your shoulders. In addition you will also have a number of restrictions laid upon you as well.

You are in a bit of a conundrum, because I think your best bet is to get stuff recorded in order to have a proof of concept. Unfortunately the easiest way to do this would require you to pay out of pocket to hire musicians.

I also think covers would actually be important here too to use as YouTube fodder so to speak to attract people to checking you guys out. To use a Brit as an example, something like with what Leo at Frog Leap Studios does with his metal covers of songs from completely different genres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diet Kirk View Post
One further thought, has anyone ever had any success putting together a band of people from around the country (or state in the US is probably as big an area) and successfully gigging it? The logistics of rehearsals and stuff can they be overcome?
Depends on the distance but honestly only time I've seen this work is basically with hired hands leading up to a longer tour situation. However, I've spent my adult life in Texas, except for a couple of years in Louisiana so distances are a bit exaggerated. So maybe someone with a situation closer to yours should chime in on this.

Honestly, if I were to try and pull this off, I think the first thing I would try and do is get a good chunk of songs recorded. I would try and do this, at least at first, probably as an online collaboration situation. Basically people recording their parts from where they are at, and adding it to the collective recording. Then you can take those and mix them down and have them mastered. Everyone gets credit for their part.

Other than that, outside of relocating to where the musicians are or paying out of pocket for them, I don't have any other ideas.
__________________
"My music is the spiritual expression of what I am, My Faith, My Knowledge, My Being." - Coltrane
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-26-2017, 02:52 AM
DrumWild DrumWild is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 387
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diet Kirk View Post
One further thought, has anyone ever had any success putting together a band of people from around the country (or state in the US is probably as big an area) and successfully gigging it? The logistics of rehearsals and stuff can they be overcome?
There's this guy I met in LA. Not sure what's happening with him these days. His name is Lob Instagon, founder of the "Garage Jazz" genre, and his project is called "Instagon." He claims there was "never the same ensemble on stage" since 1993.

His archive of players is most impressive. As of the summer of 2016, he's had over 700 band members.

He might have some advice on the subject.

The history of Deep Purple is interesting. It started out as a drummer forming a supergroup.

In 1967, former Searchers drummer Chris Curtis contacted London businessman Tony Edwards, in the hope that he would manage a new group he was putting together, to be called Roundabout. Curtis' vision was a "supergroup" where the band members would get on and off, like a musical roundabout. Impressed with the plan, Edwards agreed to finance the venture with his two business partners John Coletta and Ron Hire, who comprised Hire-Edwards-Coletta Enterprises (HEC).


Curtis had a series of issues, and was given the boot.
__________________
I don't really feel like I belong here, so please feel free to delete my account.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:07 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,203
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

I think you'd have to lean toward option #2.

Trying to find band members is tough in any genre, and even tougher when the music is obscure.

I had a band that I knew was only going to appeal to a small obscure set of people. Like you discovered, when putting on stuff on the web, we got a great reaction world wide when you consider we only need a few fans in every state/country to feel about what your doing. But trying to fill out the roster locally was a pain. We never did find a permeant guitar player and instead used two different friends and me learning to play enough guitar to round it out.

I just think if you sit around and wait for the right musicians to come along, you're going to be waiting a really long time. And every time you fill one position, someone else is bound to leave in frustration because the whole thing isn't together yet.

And the other aspect is with a small kid, you may find the one person who needs to cancel rehearsal is YOU at times.

I have another project that spends more time on hold than not. Kids, life, career change, and a nagging injury (particularly the injury) prevent it come getting to far along. I still intended to finish it one day, but will likely mean having to hire other players to help. And with kids and such, the $ isn't there. So it waits.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-26-2017, 12:53 PM
BertTheDrummer's Avatar
BertTheDrummer BertTheDrummer is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 656
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumWild View Post
There's this guy I met in LA. Not sure what's happening with him these days. His name is Lob Instagon, founder of the "Garage Jazz" genre, and his project is called "Instagon." He claims there was "never the same ensemble on stage" since 1993.
Probably a lot easier to do in a place like LA than most anywhere else in the world, except maybe NYC.
__________________
"My music is the spiritual expression of what I am, My Faith, My Knowledge, My Being." - Coltrane
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-26-2017, 01:33 PM
AndeeT AndeeT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 239
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

I can't advise you on the music industry side of things but your story is great and I am happy for the success you have gained so far. I love metal music and combining stykes to make sub-genres I also love too. I wish you luck in the future.

So, what I will say is that if you want it to work (and I am sure you know already), it's going to take a lot of focus and perhaps some sacrifice. Please don't let anyone tell you it wont work, or if they do, don't listen!

I know not everyone loves him as musch as me but Arnie's 6 rules of life are great advice for going about a project;

https://katloterzo.com/arnold-schwar...er-life-rules/

and importantly; where can we hear it?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-26-2017, 01:54 PM
hawksmoor's Avatar
hawksmoor hawksmoor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: sarf London
Posts: 128
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

The idea sounds great. I can't offer any advice, other than stay away from the trombonist in our band! As an aside have you heard The Budos Band, who play in a heavy rock style but with a horn section?

Here they are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gOK9LjTtl8
__________________
Today's special is Memphis soul stew
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-26-2017, 06:35 PM
PorkPieGuy's Avatar
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,841
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

This sounds like quite the project!

First of all, let me say that I know what it's like to do an entire project on your own. IT SUCKS! When I was in the middle of my project, I missed so much time with my then one-year-old. I've been where you are. I don't do full band projects anymore by myself, but enough about me.

Here are some things I would do if I were in your shoes:

1. Overall, you need buy-in from other people. You need people in your life who are EXCITED about this project. Once something starts getting some traction, it can take on a life of its own. This way, you don't feel like you are going at it alone.

2. I don't know a way to do this without being an "Uncle Creepy," but I would bet that there are some frustrated, metal-loving band kids out there at your local high school who want more than anything to play heavy music but their parents stuck a trumpet or other brass instruments in their hands. Find. Those. Kids.

3. You need to finish about 6-8 songs, and you need to write out all of the parts. I'm sure there's software for this, but you can use sound samples of brass instruments just to demo the stuff out to make sure the notes and the parts fit. I'm assuming you are doing this in a home studio as opposed to going somewhere where you are paying by the hour. You need to be in a spot where you can send sound files and sheet music out to anyone, especially those horn players. It's a lot of work, but if I were still a horn player, I would want some sound clips and I would want some sheet music. This way they can play/practice on their own and then show up to play with the potential for it to actually sound like music the first time. Along these lines, I would try to write music in key signatures that are user-friendly for horn players.

4. In playing live, I would plan on playing live with performance tracks to begin with. As a matter of fact, I would make design it where every horn, guitar, and bass was on different tracks. If it's only you and the guitar player one night? No problem. Play the tracks for all of the horns and bass. Everyone can show up except for the trombone and trumpet player? No problem. Just play their tracks live. Granted, if you did this you would need the software and run an IEM system, but it would be something to think about.

Before anything else, you need some folks out there who are on your side and are excited about your project.

This is all I have. Best of luck with everything! :)

Last edited by PorkPieGuy; 10-26-2017 at 07:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-26-2017, 06:40 PM
BertTheDrummer's Avatar
BertTheDrummer BertTheDrummer is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 656
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy View Post
4. In playing live, I would plan on playing live with performance tracks to begin with. As a matter of fact, I would make design it where every horn, guitar, and bass was on different tracks. If it's only you and the guitar player one night? No problem. Play the tracks for all of the horns and bass. Everyone can show up except for the trombone and trumpet player? No problem. Just play their tracks live. Granted, if you did this you would need the software and run an IEM system, but it would be something to think about.

This is all I have. Best of luck with everything! :)
This is a pretty good idea. I knew a guy, where him and his brother had a pretty in depth project with a lot of instrumentation. I ended up recording some sax tracks for him. I think total there was like 12-15 instruments. However when they went out and giggged it was just him and his brother for the most part. Now this will date things, but they had the rest of the tracks on Minidisc. Now you would obviously have better options but it worked for the time.
__________________
"My music is the spiritual expression of what I am, My Faith, My Knowledge, My Being." - Coltrane
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-26-2017, 07:00 PM
PorkPieGuy's Avatar
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,841
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertTheDrummer View Post
This is a pretty good idea. I knew a guy, where him and his brother had a pretty in depth project with a lot of instrumentation. I ended up recording some sax tracks for him. I think total there was like 12-15 instruments. However when they went out and giggged it was just him and his brother for the most part. Now this will date things, but they had the rest of the tracks on Minidisc. Now you would obviously have better options but it worked for the time.

Our church does this. Every song has backing tracks, and the more people who are there to play live, the less tracking we use. Everything is run with PRIME from an iPad. What I like about it is not only is there a click track, but there are auditory cues for every song. For example, a couple of bars before the chorus, the track says "Chorus...2...3...4." It also says things like "Drums in," "hit and hold," "Big ending," etc. It may seem a little overkill for church music, but we are running 3 morning services right now, and we do a full rehearsal before the first service. It's very easy to get lost when you've played the same 4 songs four times in a row.

I think one of the only drawbacks is that there's little room for changing the track once it's made. I guess you can go in and add another chorus or something, but I don't know how easy the software is to manipulate. Either way, it leaves little room to improvise when playing live; however, with that many people on the stage, you probably don't really WANT to improvise anyways.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-27-2017, 12:10 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

First off, this is awesome guys thank you. I can't explain how good it is to just spit ball ideas with people who know what I'm talking about and bat around some ideas.

So thank you all.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-27-2017, 12:21 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Bert, hope you don't mind but I've edited your comments a bit to slim down the quote!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertTheDrummer View Post
I have to say, if you are expecting a label to basically do all the work for you, that isn't at all how it really works. I've been in bands previously with record deals, and I can honestly say that you probably won't get a whole lot of extra help with things. Yes, you will get some ideas and resources you might not have access too, but 99% of the work will still fall on your shoulders. In addition you will also have a number of restrictions laid upon you as well.

You are in a bit of a conundrum, because I think your best bet is to get stuff recorded in order to have a proof of concept. Unfortunately the easiest way to do this would require you to pay out of pocket to hire musicians.

I also think covers would actually be important here too to use as YouTube fodder so to speak to attract people to checking you guys out. To use a Brit as an example, something like with what Leo at Frog Leap Studios does with his metal covers of songs from completely different genres.

Honestly, if I were to try and pull this off, I think the first thing I would try and do is get a good chunk of songs recorded. I would try and do this, at least at first, probably as an online collaboration situation. Basically people recording their parts from where they are at, and adding it to the collective recording. Then you can take those and mix them down and have them mastered. Everyone gets credit for their part.
Thanks Bert, and don't worry I am absolutely NOT expecting a label to do everything for me. Personally I have only ever had a rubbish record deal with a two bit label that wasn't worth the paper it was written on, but I have researched and read enough to know that they don't wave magic wands.

My thought was. If I treat it as a recording project. Ok fine, I can work out how to finance an EP and anyone can distribute digitally to itunes etc these days. But then what! I can't make it find its audience. And with the best will in the world niche music is going to need a bit of a push to find its crowd.

PR companies are likely only going to be interested (although obviously will want paying) if there is additional activity like gigging etc going on.

So the thought of needing a label was that if it was a recording project I would need a label to leverage their network and marketing in order to garner an audience big enough that it would be feasible to then turn it into a live band. Without it, it would be just another one of the millions of albums on itunes that have sold zero copies.

I do have stuff recorded too. This is just all in my head. I have a second song that is complete, but the horns are still digital. And the other 7 tracks are just missing vocals. Well ok, one of them needs a better middle 8 and there's one where I'd like the guitar to be a bit heavier in the verse. But you get the idea, I've got stuff that I can put in front of people and say, look this is what it is, lets play it, or lets de-construct it and re-write some bits.

I do get what you mean about covers too and the more I think about it the more it could be interesting. I've actually been in touch with Leo at Frog Leap a couple of years ago when I first thought about pulling this together haha. He was quite up for it actually, but if I remember right I couldn't afford him!

Another solid vote for an online collaboration. Ok, I'm keeping score here
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-27-2017, 12:23 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumWild View Post
There's this guy I met in LA. Not sure what's happening with him these days. His name is Lob Instagon, founder of the "Garage Jazz" genre, and his project is called "Instagon." He claims there was "never the same ensemble on stage" since 1993.

His archive of players is most impressive. As of the summer of 2016, he's had over 700 band members.

He might have some advice on the subject.

The history of Deep Purple is interesting. It started out as a drummer forming a supergroup.

In 1967, former Searchers drummer Chris Curtis contacted London businessman Tony Edwards, in the hope that he would manage a new group he was putting together, to be called Roundabout. Curtis' vision was a "supergroup" where the band members would get on and off, like a musical roundabout. Impressed with the plan, Edwards agreed to finance the venture with his two business partners John Coletta and Ron Hire, who comprised Hire-Edwards-Coletta Enterprises (HEC).


Curtis had a series of issues, and was given the boot.
They do say that the definition of stupidity is trying the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome. I wonder if this makes me stupid haha
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-27-2017, 12:33 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I think you'd have to lean toward option #2.

I just think if you sit around and wait for the right musicians to come along, you're going to be waiting a really long time. And every time you fill one position, someone else is bound to leave in frustration because the whole thing isn't together yet.

And the other aspect is with a small kid, you may find the one person who needs to cancel rehearsal is YOU at times.

I have another project that spends more time on hold than not. Kids, life, career change, and a nagging injury (particularly the injury) prevent it come getting to far along. I still intended to finish it one day, but will likely mean having to hire other players to help. And with kids and such, the $ isn't there. So it waits.
You know that is a really good point. If I wait there is no forward motion. I can do option #2 whilst still looking.

You are right too, I am incredibly concerned that it will be me that lets the project down at some point. That is one of the reasons why I've decided not to be a live playing member myself. I'd aim to be at every practice and every gig. But if ever there came a time I couldn't make a great gig, i wouldn't want the project to suffer.

Clearly I'm not the only person with big ideas, time that is getting away from them and a lack of money :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndeeT View Post
I can't advise you on the music industry side of things but your story is great and I am happy for the success you have gained so far. I love metal music and combining stykes to make sub-genres I also love too. I wish you luck in the future.

So, what I will say is that if you want it to work (and I am sure you know already), it's going to take a lot of focus and perhaps some sacrifice. Please don't let anyone tell you it wont work, or if they do, don't listen!

I know not everyone loves him as musch as me but Arnie's 6 rules of life are great advice for going about a project;

https://katloterzo.com/arnold-schwar...er-life-rules/

and importantly; where can we hear it?
Hey don't get me wrong by success I mean relatively speaking! I won't be buying any speedboats anytime soon.

Hey and that's great advice too. I think all musicians swing wildly between one day being ultra positive and the next being ultra negative. Really hasn't helped that I don't have anyone to share it with at the moment either. But I like any comments that gets me to think positive!

Oh and here's a link to the first track I put out there and the video. I didn't want to lead with that as I didn't want you lot to think I was just pushing the music.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P32NJ7OT1-0

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksmoor View Post
The idea sounds great. I can't offer any advice, other than stay away from the trombonist in our band! As an aside have you heard The Budos Band, who play in a heavy rock style but with a horn section?

Here they are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gOK9LjTtl8
I'll check those guys out tomorrow, always glad to find new stuff mixing rock with horns. I'm not out to steal anyone's players. Not my style, but don't be surprised if your band email has already got a message from me asking if you know of any good players in the north haha.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-27-2017, 12:40 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy View Post
This sounds like quite the project!

First of all, let me say that I know what it's like to do an entire project on your own. IT SUCKS! When I was in the middle of my project, I missed so much time with my then one-year-old. I've been where you are. I don't do full band projects anymore by myself, but enough about me.

Here are some things I would do if I were in your shoes:

1. Overall, you need buy-in from other people. You need people in your life who are EXCITED about this project. Once something starts getting some traction, it can take on a life of its own. This way, you don't feel like you are going at it alone.

2. I don't know a way to do this without being an "Uncle Creepy," but I would bet that there are some frustrated, metal-loving band kids out there at your local high school who want more than anything to play heavy music but their parents stuck a trumpet or other brass instruments in their hands. Find. Those. Kids.

3. You need to finish about 6-8 songs, and you need to write out all of the parts. I'm sure there's software for this, but you can use sound samples of brass instruments just to demo the stuff out to make sure the notes and the parts fit. I'm assuming you are doing this in a home studio as opposed to going somewhere where you are paying by the hour. You need to be in a spot where you can send sound files and sheet music out to anyone, especially those horn players. It's a lot of work, but if I were still a horn player, I would want some sound clips and I would want some sheet music. This way they can play/practice on their own and then show up to play with the potential for it to actually sound like music the first time. Along these lines, I would try to write music in key signatures that are user-friendly for horn players.

4. In playing live, I would plan on playing live with performance tracks to begin with. As a matter of fact, I would make design it where every horn, guitar, and bass was on different tracks. If it's only you and the guitar player one night? No problem. Play the tracks for all of the horns and bass. Everyone can show up except for the trombone and trumpet player? No problem. Just play their tracks live. Granted, if you did this you would need the software and run an IEM system, but it would be something to think about.

Before anything else, you need some folks out there who are on your side and are excited about your project.

This is all I have. Best of luck with everything! :)
No worries at all mate, I'm interested, please do share your story of how that project went and what sort of stuff you do now. Maybe I can learn from you!

1. I do hope so. I think I do just need a couple of people who can help me kick things up a notch right now. Actually been sounding out a few good people today via email.

2. You know, I really thought this would be true. Damned if I can find out how to get access to them though!

3. Yep agree and I'm there already with that. See the previous post. Only thing that isn't necessarily true is that the key signatures are horn friendly!

4. I just can't bring myself to do that mate. I think it would destroy the look and the story of the thing right from the outset. There is no half way house for me here really. I'll be happy if all I ever get done is say a full 12 songs recorded, but never gig it. And I'd be happy if I just get a couple of songs done, but manage to gig it in full a couple of times. Anything else I just don't think even I would be excited about and I'm currently this projects only advocate haha

And thanks dude
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-27-2017, 12:44 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy View Post
Our church does this. Every song has backing tracks, and the more people who are there to play live, the less tracking we use. Everything is run with PRIME from an iPad. What I like about it is not only is there a click track, but there are auditory cues for every song. For example, a couple of bars before the chorus, the track says "Chorus...2...3...4." It also says things like "Drums in," "hit and hold," "Big ending," etc. It may seem a little overkill for church music, but we are running 3 morning services right now, and we do a full rehearsal before the first service. It's very easy to get lost when you've played the same 4 songs four times in a row.

I think one of the only drawbacks is that there's little room for changing the track once it's made. I guess you can go in and add another chorus or something, but I don't know how easy the software is to manipulate. Either way, it leaves little room to improvise when playing live; however, with that many people on the stage, you probably don't really WANT to improvise anyways.
Actually as a side note to this I sat in on drums for my buddy who has a solo project going for two gigs last year, and we set the click track up so that I had the click in my left ear and the full recorded track in my right ear. Complete with drums and everything. A little weird and detached to play live that way. But for a gig where all I had to do was hold down the fort and allow him to do his thing worked great.

But, again see above. Just don't feel like I can do that with this. When I conceived of this thing the vision I had in my head was of a full horn section in full flight headbanging with their horns. Now that, is what gets me excited about it!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-27-2017, 01:13 AM
Push pull stroke Push pull stroke is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 1,237
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diet Kirk View Post
I've had a great reception from random strangers on the internet particularly from the US. You guys have an awesome tradition of marching bands, brass is cool to youngsters and obviously metal is also really popular.

For all we have a proud brass tradition in the UK, it isn't as ubiquitous as it should be outside of the traditional brass bands.

I've tried reaching out to the universities near me, but all the contacts I've found suggest posting things on their facebook pages. Which is obviously quite fleeting before people stop seeing it. It's been difficult to get access to those guys. I'm following threads I find though. Other bands with horns, reaching out to friends of friends on social media etc
Talk to the brass teachers at your local universities. They can really help you along.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-27-2017, 05:09 AM
ConcertTom's Avatar
ConcertTom ConcertTom is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 97
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Hey, the link to your track didn't work for me. Can you let us know the name of it so I can look it up? Very curious to hear!
__________________
________________
hereliesman.com
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-27-2017, 09:42 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Whoops this link should work

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P32NJ7OT1-0
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-27-2017, 09:44 AM
Diet Kirk's Avatar
Diet Kirk Diet Kirk is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 509
Default Re: Help I need advice on what to do next with a project

Whoops this link should work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P32NJ7OT1-0
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com