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  #41  
Old 07-20-2017, 10:46 PM
Infamous Beater Infamous Beater is offline
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Not sure how this discussion got so far afield.

College is designed to teach you to do two things:

1. Tolerate high amounts of stress with looming deadlines

2. Turn in work on time (on deadline).

Can people who don't go to college do those things? Absolutely, but a college degree gives hiring managers the assurance that you've already done it for four years.
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  #42  
Old 07-22-2017, 02:45 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

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What does the data mean? Slackers tend not to go to college, while go-getters do? Who did the study? Was it a college or university? Who was included and excluded? Data means absolutely nothing in the real world. At least not anymore when almost every study has an agenda behind it.

Biggest problem with the "highly educated" is the lack of wisdom and common sense. They become enamored with studies and numbers and ignore what's in front of them. In many respects, they were way better off before their big degrees, when they could think for themselves. After their big degrees, they look outside and see a storm, but if the weather report says no rain, then they don't take an umbrella. They tend to become much less sensitive to real facts and figures, and keep clinging to slanted studies.

I've been on interview boards for at least the past 15 years and 9 out of 10 times our best and brightest have come from military backgrounds or worked themselves up through the ranks. Most of our "highly educated" interviewees end up disqualifying themselves due to their level of errogance. We also hesitate to hire them, because history has showed us they will jump from job to job, trying to get rank and fold up or quit under pressure. There's no study that shows that. That wouldn't meet anyone's agenda.

Scary part is, some employers have bought into this and require college degrees for entry level jobs. Can't hardly take a 30-40k salary when you're 130k in debt and you can't get the better job, because you have no experience.

These studies also only look at a dollar for dollar comparison, but if you spent 15 years paying off a 130k school debt compared to the same time paying down your mortgage or investing the money, you'll be way ahead of the game. Nothing says you can't get a job and get your education from your sallary, but every kid out of high school has been told they won't amount to anything, unless they go to school, which requires their first year to be lived in a dorm, spending ungodly amounts of cash for the privilege and on and on it goes.

Don't think anyone responded to your facts and figures, because most have grown tired of this thread. I hardly find the numbers factual, because experience tells me way different. None of these studies show how satisfied these graduates are or how far in debt, opportunity costs lost, etc.

Studies are rarely impressive. Want to show good unemployment numbers? Exclude those who have given up looking. Want to show an increase in jobs created? Exclude the number of jobs lost. Want to show a wage gap between men and women? Include stay at home moms and exclude time off for maternity, etc. studies can show what they want. Not impressed.

Sorry for the non drum related and off topic rant!
This seems contradictory, jaded and simple minded. I mean you just can't win either you look outside and stick to your predictions and don't take an umbrella or you fold up your tent at the earliest sign of trouble at a business. Seriously, get real! Loyalty is expensive and doesn't add value, that's why companies don't pay for that anymore. They don't pay for training they don't promote people. If you want a window and a quiet place to work, better off looking at the next job. Who wants to work at the same job year after year, why can't people have a change of scenery? Are windows that expensive?
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  #43  
Old 07-22-2017, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

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This seems contradictory, jaded and simple minded. I mean you just can't win either you look outside and stick to your predictions and don't take an umbrella or you fold up your tent at the earliest sign of trouble at a business. Seriously, get real! Loyalty is expensive and doesn't add value, that's why companies don't pay for that anymore. They don't pay for training they don't promote people. If you want a window and a quiet place to work, better off looking at the next job. Who wants to work at the same job year after year, why can't people have a change of scenery? Are windows that expensive?
I guess I'm simple minded, but no way in hell am I hiring someone I know will jump ship in a year. Don't recall saying anything about 10 and I'm pretty sure you know what I mean about my umbrella statement. If not, I'm sorry, but no explanation required.
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  #44  
Old 07-22-2017, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

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I guess I'm simple minded, but no way in hell am I hiring someone I know will jump ship in a year. Don't recall saying anything about 10 and I'm pretty sure you know what I mean about my umbrella statement. If not, I'm sorry, but no explanation required.
You've never worked at position in an organization that has had a high turn over. One where the previous three or four employees left after a couple of years. You know a job with a simple minded boss that has a bunch of double standards, and just can't figure out why the smart people keep leaving.
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  #45  
Old 07-22-2017, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

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You've never worked at position in an organization that has had a high turn over. One where the previous three or four employees left after a couple of years. You know a job with a simple minded boss that has a bunch of double standards, and just can't figure out why the smart people keep leaving.
You're absolutely correct, which is exactly why I we don't have a high turnover. We hire right and pay well. That all changed for the better when we looked less at paper and more at real people. Nice try though.

This is your chance to keep throwing flames. This thread is about to take a bad turn and get locked. It won't be on me.
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  #46  
Old 07-22-2017, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Maybe I missed it but where does it say if you get a music education degree, you have to reach in a school. Certainly you could do private lessons. I just spoke to my 9th grade girlfriend via Facebook and she got her degree and has been teaching privately for almost 50 years. It's not just a school gig that lets you teach
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  #47  
Old 07-22-2017, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Does anyone want to visit the Doctor who graduated at the bottom of his class at Harvard or any school? One thing to remember, whether you approve or not, is that not having a college degree is an eliminator for people hiring. You may be the best of 50 candidates for a job, but who wants to interview 50 people.? They request college, and eliminate half of the applicants. It's their loss if the most qualified doesn't have a degree. Some jobs will ask for a BS degree or equivalent experience. Tough to get experience right out of school with no degree. And many that start college dont finish. But back to my previous post, you don't have to teach at schools after you get your degree.
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2017, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

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Does anyone want to visit the Doctor who graduated at the bottom of his class at Harvard or any school? One thing to remember, whether you approve or not, is that not having a college degree is an eliminator for people hiring. You may be the best of 50 candidates for a job, but who wants to interview 50 people.? They request college, and eliminate half of the applicants. It's their loss if the most qualified doesn't have a degree. Some jobs will ask for a BS degree or equivalent experience. Tough to get experience right out of school with no degree. And many that start college dont finish. But back to my previous post, you don't have to teach at schools after you get your degree.
All true, but how would we know where our doc was on the scale of graduates? His/her experience would be all we could count on. Some jobs aren't attainable at all without a degree, so you have to start on the ground floor with them. I work in the tech field, so we have a gammot of experiences. A bit tougher to tell if a guy is looking to jump around in 6 months, without any history, but you can usually tell by what they accomplished with side projects, how impressed they are with their own achievements/degree and the one big thing...what they know about what we do and how they can can help you fill the gap.

At least in my department, we look less at BS degrees and more at certifications and actual accomplishments, or at least the candidates vision for what they can or want to do. You're right though, that leaves us with a mountain of resumes, but the gems are tough to find, so we take the time to actually read through them. For the higher positions, it's much easier to see patterns.

There was a time at least when a person's character was what ruled. I find it tough to believe some see this as simple-minded these days. For some fields at least, paper only proves you're a great test taker...that's all.

With regards to music, which was the original point of this thread (my apologies for being at least partially responsible for derailing it) I can't see how you could effectively teach, without understanding music theory, etc. it's one thing to be a local drum teacher and another to be a music teacher. Although I'm not sure where my HS band teacher fit in. Never did learn if he actually played an instrument or not. He had a hell of an iron fist though! LOL!!!

Last edited by AzHeat; 07-22-2017 at 06:39 PM.
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  #49  
Old 07-22-2017, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

My high school band/orchestra teacher played everything and I saw it. He taught lessons during non band periods and held a band camp in the summer.
I'm pretty sure he could have made more money doing private lessons but then there is the insurance/benefit aspect of it all. But my point was that it is silly to assume that everyone getting a music ed. degree so that they could teach at a school
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  #50  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

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Maybe I missed it but where does it say if you get a music education degree, you have to teach in a school...
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...But my point was that it is silly to assume that everyone getting a music ed. degree so that they could teach at a school
For most music ed majors, there would certainly be the intention of teaching in a school at some point. Otherwise, the extra classes such as woodwind methods, brass methods, string methods, percussion methods (for non percussion majors) would be a lot of unnecessary work.

These classes, while required for the music education degree, are basically an introduction to each instrument - lasting a semester or two each. By the time the students graduate, they should know the fingerings and tone production techniques for all the instruments. But they will not be proficient on each one. That's why school band directors will often have clinicians come in to work with the individual sections.

For those with no intention of ever teaching in a school, the better choice would be to take all of the other music classes, minus the methods classes (and student teaching). The additional credits would be applied to a different major within the music field, such as music business, music production, music performance, etc.

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Last edited by jeffwj; 07-23-2017 at 01:13 AM.
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  #51  
Old 07-23-2017, 12:47 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

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Does anyone want to visit the Doctor who graduated at the bottom of his class at Harvard or any school? One thing to remember, whether you approve or not, is that not having a college degree is an eliminator for people hiring. You may be the best of 50 candidates for a job, but who wants to interview 50 people.? They request college, and eliminate half of the applicants. It's their loss if the most qualified doesn't have a degree. Some jobs will ask for a BS degree or equivalent experience. Tough to get experience right out of school with no degree. And many that start college dont finish. But back to my previous post, you don't have to teach at schools after you get your degree.
If your doctor has a degree from Harvard, it is probably in the bottom half. Most people go to Ivy League schools for the business degree. IMO doctors don't tend to be the brightest cupcakes. There was a kid in my school that went on to be a doctor, I think he graduated tenth or fifteenth, no validictorian for sure, even then he had to put in much more time and effort to get the grades, some people go for that kind of dedication in an employee.
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  #52  
Old 07-26-2017, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I was basically speaking of the bottom of the medical Student population and not the school in general.

I realize that a music education degree is the highway to teaching in schools but not etched in stone. I would also assume that most of those students would have a major instrument and learn to play, buit not become profiecient, on all. My point was that the Title of the thread and the overall tone of the article was that a music education was a total waste of time and I just disagree.

Just one school, but there is certainly more here than just teaching at a school.

http://www.frost.miami.edu/programs-degrees/index.html
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  #53  
Old 07-26-2017, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

Good article Grunt. Here's a decent article on how to get into an orchestra. Pretty involved, but definitely not the end of the road, if someone truly wants to play and not teach.

http://musicschoolcentral.com/make-career-orchestra/
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  #54  
Old 07-26-2017, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

And here is the profile of the author of the original articles. Sounds like his education did him some good.
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  #55  
Old 09-02-2017, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

I was a music educator for nearly 35 years on every educational level, on four different continents. I was also close to a full time player for most of that time. In 2013, I was inducted into the Jazz Education Hall of Fame.

To be honest, my choices have always been non-financial. Had that been the goal, then my mother would have gotten the lawyer she wanted. Also, it's important to note, that for most of my career, I said education was a temp gig. Then when 10 or 12 years passed, I learned there were some very cool things derived.

I have hundreds of serious former students out there, and some make more bread than I could ever hope to make. To give an example, one of my guys is Louis Cato, the dread-locked multi-instrumentalist with sunglasses on Stephen Colbert's show. Well, every time I see him on television, I feel like I'm watching a part of myself, and there's no amount of money you can trade for that. Same for my son Matt and many others.

Unfortunately, contemporary education has become politicized in such a way, that no self respecting musician survives it. In the present, we have to be more concerned about how the student feels, and not if he can play. It's another reason I believe music's quality has been greatly diminished, especially in the last 10 years. Some of you here probably recall my son. He's good because he was told there was a musical standard. Nowadays good and bad are subjective, which is ridiculous. The truth is you can either play or you can't. Unfortunately, I learned I was no longer allowed to say that, which explains why I'm mostly out.

It's a shame really. But, in 2017, I can no longer recommend the music education degree unless you're a marching band person, while even that crowd is getting smaller. My perspective only.
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  #56  
Old 09-02-2017, 08:58 AM
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Default Re: Opinion Article: For Godís Sake Donít Major In Music Education

As an educator I have no problem dealing with all sorts of situations and making things work on any kind of level.

I have guitar, bass and drums students. Some are talented and I push then quite hard when I can. I have to create that environment myself, though.

We are increasingly being led by politicians and leaders who have no place even having an opinion about this work. They focus on some strange shallow short sighted, superficial things that don't really matter and no serious teacher has the time or energy to think about. It can be fun and interesting, but at the end of the day we're beat, too. There's no energy left to deal with that type of idiocy from those who are supposed to help us do our job. Discussions for hours about things any qualified person knows in seconds. They need to know where to draw the line. Where they're out of their depth and should just leave it up to the professionals.

As of this week I'm apparently back to conductiong as well. A grown up brass band this time. I do it my own way. I come from a jazz and rock background where we build general musical skills. It really works. I get great results, but dealing with some old fashioned know it alls who don't see the development only that it's "wrong" because it's different from what they're used to can be a chore. I tell them this up front now though and in this case I think they're just happy to have someone who knows what they're doing.

They are playing a lot of "my type of music" anyway, swing and funk based stuff, so why not learn it the propper way?

30 min warm-ups based on general challenges of the music we play, here we come. lol
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