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  #1  
Old 07-27-2017, 10:35 PM
KJ5150 KJ5150 is offline
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Default Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Hey Guys looking for some advice, YES i did search but didn't really find the answers. So i am in a band and have written about 8 songs that will be release soon on our new CD. The previous drummer has decided (who is no longer with us) wants to have credit for writing the structure, i was like WTF...our new drummer is a way better musician and has totally redone the way the songs were played, but he still insists that HE wrote the beat and structure and wants credit for it....to me that just sounds idiotic. Now i do have jam recordings that i have kept and he thinks that because we have crappy recordings its all copyritten etc.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

IF he actually created completely unique rhythms for these songs... well, I can stop there. I'm confident that whatever he did has been done before, particularly if being implemented in the context of music intended to be commercial on any level.

Writing is credited based more on agreement than actual musical input. Did the previous drummer have such an agreement? I thought not.

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Old 07-27-2017, 11:27 PM
WallyY WallyY is offline
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

He might be correct. We don't know. Maybe you can have him come on here and give his side of the story.

If he is correct, will you give him the credit he asks, or no?
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:37 PM
KJ5150 KJ5150 is offline
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

There was no agreement between us, if fact originally he was only supposed to be a fill in drummer nothing more until he decided to stay on and try and be permanent. We did not see eye to on certain factors, i will admit i am not the easiest guy to work with, but i am not out to bash any previous members, Just looking to the clear the air. We jammed and i recorded the jams like allot of bands do during rehearsal just so the next week we could maybe work on certain songs. He seem to think now that the new songs have been officially with the new members that he should be credited for writing structure, but the New Drummer has changed the arrangements and does not even sound the it did originally, so right there i would say no go.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Keep copies of the tracks the former guy did and keep tracks of how they are now, in case you have to prove yourself. That may never happen, but if it does, you're covered. If in fact, the parts are that different, then you could say to the first guy....but we didn't use your parts, here listen.
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Old 07-28-2017, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Would you credit a lyricist for lyrics that you didn't use?

You can't copyright a beat. anyway.

The guy who registered the 4 on the floor would own the earth.
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Old 07-28-2017, 12:35 AM
Skrivarna Skrivarna is offline
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

I think your former drummer need to read up on the concept of copyright.
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  #8  
Old 07-28-2017, 01:00 AM
cutaway79 cutaway79 is offline
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

***Copyrighted***
...............................
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  #9  
Old 07-28-2017, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

If he really wants to be part of the future profits, cut him in. Also make sure he fronts his share of the expenses to record, manufacture, and distribute the product. I'm sure he'll change his tune.
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Old 07-28-2017, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

If you're friends and actually did value some of his input to the originals, then just give a shout on the CD fold.

"Special thanks to (insert old drummer name) for his part in writing and arranging tracks (insert tracks he should get a nod for)."

Doesn't hurt anything to give a shout, gives him a little "credit" (whatever that's worth...) and you get to feel good about being a nice dude.
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Old 07-28-2017, 02:21 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Let me add a more personal perspective. My parts to original songs appear on more than a few albums, and I have no illusions about trying to claim composing or arranging credit on them. I don't think there's any audacity on the part of your old drummer, but he's barking up the wrong tree in wanting a piece of anything if he didn't actually write or participate in a recording for sale.

Bermuda
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  #12  
Old 07-28-2017, 04:04 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

And on the other hand, everything about this is speculative anyway. There are a million people who write songs and print up CD's with hopes that people will buy. Well, making the music is just the first battle. The second battle is getting it out to people so they can hear it and hopefully buy it. If nobody buys your CD, I'd say you guys are still in the same boat as if you never made a CD.

Sorry to be the dark horse about it, but that is still a truism.

Go on the internet and read about both contract law and copyright law and get educated anyway.
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  #13  
Old 07-28-2017, 02:13 PM
KJ5150 KJ5150 is offline
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Hey i totally appreciate all the honesty, i have looked into it, i got an email back from the Intellectual Board of Canada and they confirmed that he cannot claim anything as we did not use his parts and is irrelevant to be credited in any way. If we had played the exact same way as he did, then Yes i could see some conflict of interest there, thanks again you all were very informative.
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Old 07-28-2017, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Boom boom chicka boom chicka.. *copyright!* i own that now! :)
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  #15  
Old 07-28-2017, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Guess what share of "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" Steve Gadd has?
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Old 07-28-2017, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
Guess what share of "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" Steve Gadd has?
Probably about the same as Andy Summers gets for Every Breath You Take
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Old 07-28-2017, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull View Post
You can't copyright a beat. anyway.
Tell that to the "Amen Break" guys.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/networ...b_1448382.html


Anyway, the situation the OP describes sounds a lot like G'n'R before the Use Your Illusion albums. Steven Adler, the original drummer of the band, was a part of the band when they were rehearsing and arranging the UYI songs, but was kicked out due to excessive drug use. They replaced him with Matt Sorum and recorded the albums. Supposedly some of the drumming on certain songs are direct copies of the rehearsed songs with Steven Adler, others are Matt Sorum's arrangements... Dum, Dumdumdum...

http://teamrock.com/feature/2016-09-...-your-illusion
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  #18  
Old 07-28-2017, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
Tell that to the "Amen Break" guys.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/networ...b_1448382.html
It's a sample. The recording is copyrighted,not the beat itself. :)
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  #19  
Old 07-28-2017, 09:58 PM
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w3r1_drums w3r1_drums is offline
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull View Post
Would you credit a lyricist for lyrics that you didn't use?

You can't copyright a beat. anyway.

The guy who registered the 4 on the floor would own the earth.
wait, is this copyrighted yet?


Off to copyright a beat guys......
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull View Post
It's a sample. The recording is copyrighted,not the beat itself. :)
I know. I think they tried to copyright the beat so they could get paid on every song that used that style of beat. Unfortunately, "A little less Conversion" by Elvis Presley used that beat a year before they did, so...
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  #21  
Old 07-28-2017, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
If you're friends and actually did value some of his input to the originals, then just give a shout on the CD fold.

"Special thanks to (insert old drummer name) for his part in writing and arranging tracks (insert tracks he should get a nod for)."

Doesn't hurt anything to give a shout, gives him a little "credit" (whatever that's worth...) and you get to feel good about being a nice dude.
This is my favorite suggestion. It's a nice thing to do, even if you use none of his parts. What could it hurt? It's good karma. He won't get any money, but the good feeling you give him will come back to you. It's worth it just for that alone.

It's just a few words. His effort was worth at least that.
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  #22  
Old 07-29-2017, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
This is my favorite suggestion. It's a nice thing to do, even if you use none of his parts. What could it hurt? It's good karma. He won't get any money, but the good feeling you give him will come back to you. It's worth it just for that alone.

It's just a few words. His effort was worth at least that.
I don't know, that sure sounds like you are giving him song writing credit in writing.
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Old 07-29-2017, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
Tell that to the "Amen Break" guys.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/networ...b_1448382.html


Anyway, the situation the OP describes sounds a lot like G'n'R before the Use Your Illusion albums. Steven Adler, the original drummer of the band, was a part of the band when they were rehearsing and arranging the UYI songs, but was kicked out due to excessive drug use. They replaced him with Matt Sorum and recorded the albums. Supposedly some of the drumming on certain songs are direct copies of the rehearsed songs with Steven Adler, others are Matt Sorum's arrangements... Dum, Dumdumdum...

http://teamrock.com/feature/2016-09-...-your-illusion
Steven winning millions had nothing to do with drum parts, it had to do with their previous partnership agreements, and the change in agreements that happened when Steve was fired.

The band had previously agreed to split song writing credits to all members of the band (note the liner noted of Appetite credit wiring to Guns and Roses and not individual song writers). When they fired Steve, the band attempted to buy him out of the agreement for a small sum. Alder's lawyer was able to argue Steve didn't know what he was signing when he agreed to give up his rights to the existing song writing agreement.

It was all about contracts, not drum parts.
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  #24  
Old 07-29-2017, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

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Originally Posted by whiteknightx View Post
I don't know, that sure sounds like you are giving him song writing credit in writing.
Which doesn't hurt anything if the new drummer is playing it the same way.
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Old 07-30-2017, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

I think he could possibly still claim partial credit for writing the song, and you possibly can't. Though you could claim a copyright to the arrangement if that makes any sense, people copyright arrangements all the time. The reason I say possibly, is if the band members led him on to believe that they were creating a song and he was participating, well then yeah he helped write the song that you arranged and performed. Now if you wrote completely different songs with your band then. Generally you can't rewrite something and claim it as yours.
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Old 07-30-2017, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Which doesn't hurt anything if the new drummer is playing it the same way.
Well I think that being nice or not, having a piece of paper that says drummer x helped "write" the songs instantly gives him leverage to take you to court. That's what I'm saying. Doesn't matter if he has a chance to win or not, it's a can of worms I sure wouldn't want to open.
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Old 07-31-2017, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteknightx View Post
Well I think that being nice or not, having a piece of paper that says drummer x helped "write" the songs instantly gives him leverage to take you to court. That's what I'm saying. Doesn't matter if he has a chance to win or not, it's a can of worms I sure wouldn't want to open.
Well, if the songs were in danger of becoming #1 radio hits due to the guys original drum parts, he'd probably still be playing with them.
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

If the original drummer was part of formulating the arrangements, I'd say he might have a claim, especially if the music is anti-melodic, like death metal or some such style that leans heavily on buffoonery. It's possible the drummer could even have a superior role in the creation of the songs.
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:56 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

I think the best bet is to tell him in plain language he will receive no credit for the writing or arrangement of the music, and if he persists don't even respond to him. What a tool.
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Old 07-31-2017, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

From what I gather, it seems as if this issue has been resolved; however, for future reference, if a drummer ever wants credit for anything, he/she needs to write songs - as in the lyrics and the tunes themselves. This is about the only guaranteed way to get royalties.
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  #31  
Old 08-02-2017, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post

Writing is credited based more on agreement than actual musical input.
People should always agree before a jam or note is played.
Not always a "cool" thing to do, which is probably why these disputes always happen.

I do think it is kind of lame that the "songwriter" generally gets all the credit...especially if the songs are arranged by the band and little licks get written and so on, and the whole thing goes from a crumb to a complete thing.

Some bands do agree to split things up evenly.
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Old 08-02-2017, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: Copyright Drums from former bandmate

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky View Post
People should always agree before a jam or note is played.
Not always a "cool" thing to do, which is probably why these disputes always happen.

I do think it is kind of lame that the "songwriter" generally gets all the credit...especially if the songs are arranged by the band and little licks get written and so on, and the whole thing goes from a crumb to a complete thing.

Some bands do agree to split things up evenly.
If people knew then what they know now, then yes those agreements would be made before a note was played. But bands start up in a friendly way and no one thinks of these things until it's too late. And given that the majority of musicians will never "make it" as an originals band then the whole idea of drawing up agreements is an uneccessary complication for most of us.

And I agree with the second point too. When I was playing originals many years ago we poached a guitarist from another band. One day we were in the rehearsal rooms and that band was in and playing a song that after a while I found vaguely familiar. The guitarist angrily pointed out that it was a song he'd written, or more accurately his riff they'd worked up, and that we played that song too. Our version was an entirely different song due 100% to my input. He'd played the riff and I'd picked up on it, kicked it's backside and put a full bore Heavy Metal drumbeat behind it, not just the same but faster I mean completely different. In a later band I was given free rein to play what I wanted and again I took songs that had been previously played as high speed Hardcore Punk with fast but simple beats behind them and added "nuance" that had been previously missing. In the cases of both bands, had we "made it" I would have been pushing for credit on pretty much everything we'd played.

Edit: Almost 20 years later the guitarist of the second band I mentioned turned up at my front door with a vinyl album called Remember Who We Are which contained demo recordings from the many line ups of the band and included two appearances from me. How he'd found out where I lived I've no idea and I think my credit on the album (if I was credited at all, I'll need to double check) was my first name. And I was over the moon with that. He'd gone to a lot of time and trouble to find me and the album he gave me was the last of a limited run that he'd specifically kept hold of while trying to find me.

Last edited by Woolwich; 08-02-2017 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Update
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