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  #1  
Old 06-14-2017, 06:27 AM
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Default Is Rhythm Elastic.

Well is it?.......... hmmm!
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Old 06-14-2017, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

It certainly can be.

But it can also be rigid.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

With a click track, no.

With LiveBPM, yes.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:27 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

I had this discussion with a Mandolin player who is adamant that Rhythm is completely structural and cannot " Stretch " like Pizza Cheese! I disagreed of course. Wondering if there is a Musical Word in the Italian Language that speaks of Elasticity. Like "Arpeggio" for instance.. "Del Stretchio" maybe. Well i should have done the Googles first but it's fun to hear what you guys think. Here's one ! "Accompagnato" to follow the singer who may speed up or slow down.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:46 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Wondering if there is a Musical Word in the Italian Language that speaks of Elasticity. .
Mozzarella?


.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

La Donna Del Honqui Tonqui ?
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Originally Posted by paradiddle pete View Post
Wondering if there is a Musical Word in the Italian Language that speaks of Elasticity. ... Here's one ! "Accompagnato" to follow the singer who may speed up or slow down.
Here's another:

Tempo rubato. Tempo rubato [ˈtɛmpo ruˈbaːto] (free in the presentation, Italian for: stolen time) is a musical term referring to expressive and rhythmic freedom by a slight speeding up and then slowing down of the tempo of a piece at the discretion of the soloist or the conductor.
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Of course. Even with a click, you can play behind the click, in front of it or dead on. You can drift behind the click and then drift back, it adds interest and feel.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Yes they can be.

A lot of authentic Latin rhythms are not strictly metronomic time wise. Patterns such as the Cascara rush and drag within their 2 bar phrase.
If you programme the strict notation into a drum machine it just sounds wrong.

Mick
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Yes they can be.


If you programme the strict notation into a drum machine it just sounds wrong.

Mick
In my view this comment nails why click and programmed tracks don't reveal realistic favour!
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

I am human...I am superior to the machine, and always will be. I have the authority to tell the machine to "stuff it" if I "feel" like it. The machine is a tool. I USE the machine-the machine does not use ME. My timing will be as elastic or as ridgid as I want it to be, or make it to be in the moment.

As composer, as conductor, as songwriter, I determine meter-from note to note if I deem it so. As a drummer-within the context of the people I am percorming with WE determine the rules of engagement with the machine. But the machine will never set the rules of engagement with us.

And it was so...

Lol
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:01 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Originally Posted by paradiddle pete View Post
I had this discussion with a Mandolin player who is adamant that Rhythm is completely structural and cannot " Stretch " like Pizza Cheese! I disagreed of course. Wondering if there is a Musical Word in the Italian Language that speaks of Elasticity. Like "Arpeggio" for instance.. "Del Stretchio" maybe. Well i should have done the Googles first but it's fun to hear what you guys think. Here's one ! "Accompagnato" to follow the singer who may speed up or slow down.
Well, there are structural tempo changes. Both, metrically specified and left to the performers discretion. It isn't peculiar to traditional Chinese music, but many of the metric forms have sections of different meter as well as sections of free meter, parts of the melody are expected to change tempo in certain pieces and the drummer who is actually also the conductor is expected to accent these metric changes. These forms are used across melodies and are actually a more general structural element. Unfortunately these things are passed on performer to performer and there aren't resources for learning these other than listening to performances. These metric forms are almost like rudiments in western percussion.
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Well, there are structural tempo changes. Both, metrically specified and left to the performers discretion. It isn't peculiar to traditional Chinese music, but many of the metric forms have sections of different meter as well as sections of free meter, parts of the melody are expected to change tempo in certain pieces and the drummer who is actually also the conductor is expected to accent these metric changes. These forms are used across melodies and are actually a more general structural element. Unfortunately these things are passed on performer to performer and there aren't resources for learning these other than listening to performances. These metric forms are almost like rudiments in western percussion.
Here is an example on western instruments of "General' Order", the drumset drummer is pretty weak compared to the traditional, but you get the idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opWPl5Np6NI
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Is rhythm elastic? You tell me...

https://youtu.be/YdvIZTjpMJM
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Rhythm...actually time....can be as elastic as the player wants it to be.

In my world there is no elasticity, except when I lose focus for a split second lol. My opinion is elasticity is a quality of higher forms of music. Like top 40, if there is still such a thing, it's all click. I'd say there's little to no elasticity in pop music.

The best example of elasticity in music among all the choices IMO, is the lone piano player. Lone piano players can employ elasticity to great effect.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

If it isn't elastic than Kansas would be one band that did it all wrong. Unless that's not the type of elasticity we're talking about.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
The best example of elasticity in music among all the choices IMO, is the lone piano player. Lone piano players can employ elasticity to great effect.
I use a lot of tempo rubato when I do solo acoustic guitar expositions. I slow down to convey an air of solemnity, and speed up certain parts to bring life and end energy to the phrase.

There's also compositional tempo changes. A good illustration would be "The Little Engine That Could", which has the phrase "I think I can" in repetition at a gradually increasing tempo to convey the engine's increasing velocity.
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Old 06-14-2017, 03:00 PM
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Jeremy Bender Jeremy Bender is offline
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Playing with a big band you learn all about "elasticity" in the time feel. Both intended and not intended.

Last edited by Jeremy Bender; 06-14-2017 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradiddle pete View Post
I had this discussion with a Mandolin player who is adamant that Rhythm is completely structural and cannot " Stretch " like Pizza Cheese! I disagreed of course. Wondering if there is a Musical Word in the Italian Language that speaks of Elasticity. Like "Arpeggio" for instance.. "Del Stretchio" maybe. Well i should have done the Googles first but it's fun to hear what you guys think. Here's one ! "Accompagnato" to follow the singer who may speed up or slow down.
Lots of Italian words for tempo changes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temp...hange_in_tempo

Tempo has been elastic for millennia. (I think. I wasn't there.) It's been rigid only since half a century or so. It might well be a temporary craze.

Whatever it is, if it's intentional it's OK.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
In my world there is no elasticity, except when I lose focus for a split second lol. My opinion is elasticity is a quality of higher forms of music. Like top 40, if there is still such a thing, it's all click. I'd say there's little to no elasticity in pop music.
Then again, the old hits pushed and pulled plenty and were usually much better music on almost all levels than the ugly, dumb, heartless, one-dimensional overcompressed artificial music-like products that large companies produce today.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:48 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Then again, the old hits pushed and pulled plenty and were usually much better music on almost all levels than the ugly, dumb, heartless, one-dimensional overcompressed artificial music-like products that large companies produce today.
I felt this way a few years ago. TBT, I was emotionally saved by Daryl Hall's house, which reminded me that music still existed without all the bullshit.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I use a lot of tempo rubato when I do solo acoustic guitar expositions. I slow down to convey an air of solemnity, and speed up certain parts to bring life and end energy to the phrase.

There's also compositional tempo changes. A good illustration would be "The Little Engine That Could", which has the phrase "I think I can" in repetition at a gradually increasing tempo to convey the engine's increasing velocity.
True that. I should have said the lone instrumentalist.
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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I felt this way a few years ago. TBT, I was emotionally saved by Daryl Hall's house, which reminded me that music still existed without all the bullshit.
Yes, there's still some sincere music about but now you have to dig for it. Casual music listeners are exposed to the BS daily and some may never even encounter great non-standard music that they may have loved. The total result is a "compression" of mainstream music tastes, with the result being many fewer opportunities for those who enjoy the physical aspect of playing.

Also, since most of the music younger people are exposed to is so similar and predictable it's speeding up the flow of the young from music to multimedia as their first entertainment of choice.
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Two terms from western music ,accelerando and en retard.

Yes ,rhythm is elastic.
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

I think in many instances, controlled elasticity can make a rhythm more interesting, more funky. That rolling egg thing again, I like elasticity, keeps my socks up.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

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I felt this way a few years ago. TBT, I was emotionally saved by Daryl Hall's house, which reminded me that music still existed without all the bullshit.

Have you checked out NPR's series of Tiny Desk Concerts?
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Rhythm...actually time....can be as elastic as the player wants it to be.

In my world there is no elasticity, except when I lose focus for a split second lol. My opinion is elasticity is a quality of higher forms of music. Like top 40, if there is still such a thing, it's all click. I'd say there's little to no elasticity in pop music.

The best example of elasticity in music among all the choices IMO, is the lone piano player. Lone piano players can employ elasticity to great effect.
The Lone Piano Players Italian Musical Form or Sidekick ( "Elastic Accompanist" ) would be Tonto! No Less... PA DOOM PISH!
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Rhythm and Tempo are 2 different things.

You can consider Tempo an aspect of Rhythm(to many writers to quote).

Tempo can be elastic(ritardando to accelerando)...and with the view that Tempo is a part of Rhythm, then Rhythm can also be considered to be elastic.

If you subscribe to the view that Rhythm and Temp are different aspects of music then Rhythm has no inherent measurement of time beyond its internal consistency and is therefore neither elastic or rigid.

The most common interpretation I have heard is that Rhythm and Tempo are distinct...and Rhythm is neither elastic or rigid...but the tempo a Rhythm is played at can be elastic.

Last edited by Otto; 06-16-2017 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Is Rhythm Elastic.

Well a song can be arranged to have "elastic" or varying tempo and the rhythm can be as simple, or complicated or elastic as any composer desires. But I think the issue is replicating as composed so you "ain't" elastic on tempo or rhythm when u "taint" suppose to be. I think of all the garage bands of 60-70s which were likely possible because the music was so elastic most people didn't notice all the elasticity in those replicating it-yep close enough sounds good let's dance.
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