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  #1  
Old 06-10-2017, 09:12 PM
oceantracks oceantracks is offline
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Default What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

I'm really lost, just can't feel this at all!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jwxvhy66g2...0here.mp3?dl=0


Any ideas?
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  #2  
Old 06-10-2017, 09:21 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Count it as 4/4, but it's 7/8

Play and count.....
1-2-3-4, 1-2-3
1-2-3-4, 1-2-3
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  #3  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:52 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

The easiest way to count the opening riff is in a slow 7/4, phrased 3/4+4/4. Tempo for that is ~ quarter note = 74bpm. When the drums come in, he's playing a double time feel, so the snare drum notes are on the &s-- the first time through it, anyway-- he messes around with it the second time through the riff. The opening phrase when the vocals come in is two bars of 4/4 + one bar of 7/4.

Get the tempo from your metronome and then count along with the track, you should be able to find it. The first two accents in the guitar riff fall on the &-2 of both the 3/4 and the 4/4 part of the measure of 7. Try counting:

1 & 2 & 3 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:23 AM
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TK-421 TK-421 is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Actually, the easiest way to count this is:

1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4

Wherever the vocals come in, it shifts to a straight 4/4, then back to that pattern when the vocals drop out.
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Old 06-11-2017, 05:52 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

I think you guys are counting it twice as fast as me? I don't know where you're getting the 4+3-- that puts the first 1 off the guitar accent, and the second 1 on it. Doesn't really make sense. It's not an easy riff, because no matter how you count it, the big 1-- the 1 at the top of the 7-- is always in a hole between guitar accents. At least my way puts both 1s (of the 3+4) in the same hole.

Oceantracks, I slapped together a click track for the opening. Check it out, see if it helps. It should loop fairly cleanly if you set it to auto-repeat on your player.
Attached Files
File Type: mp3 what is going on here - plus click.mp3 (717.1 KB, 22 views)
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:10 PM
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TK-421 TK-421 is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I think you guys are counting it twice as fast as me? I don't know where you're getting the 4+3-- that puts the first 1 off the guitar accent, and the second 1 on it. Doesn't really make sense. It's not an easy riff, because no matter how you count it, the big 1-- the 1 at the top of the 7-- is always in a hole between guitar accents. At least my way puts both 1s (of the 3+4) in the same hole.

Oceantracks, I slapped together a click track for the opening. Check it out, see if it helps. It should loop fairly cleanly if you set it to auto-repeat on your player.
Yes, I'm counting it twice as fast as you. My way is in 7/8, while you're counting it in 7/4. Obviously we're both right, but I think my way aligns closer to the main guitar riff. In other words, if you accent the 1 the way I count it (1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4, counting it twice as fast as your 7/4 version), the 1 is always right on a guitar accent.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:15 PM
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Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

It's 7/4 not 7/8.

This is the way I'm hearing it. If you listen carefully to the guitar riff, it adds up to two bars of 7/4. However, he's breaking up the 7/4 phrasing into 2s and 4s. A bar of 4/4, a bar of 2/4 and two bars of 4/4. Then repeat.


He begins the repeat of his riff where I've bolded the third '1'.

Riff sequence 1234..12..1234..1234 (Could also be a bar of 6/4 and two bars of 4/4)

The drummer comes in and counts the same way playing a straight groove.
Then at 0:18 seconds in at the second time of the sequence, the drummer places his snare beats on the 1s and 3s, with an extra snare hit on beat 2 of the first bar. I've bolded the snare hits.

1234..12..1234..1234

This is followed by regular 4/4 time and the drummer immediately plays two snare hits on 1, 2.

xxxxxxxx hihat
•---•------•
1+2+3+4+ snare

Last edited by Merlin5; 06-11-2017 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:19 PM
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  #8  
Old 06-12-2017, 06:21 AM
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TK-421 TK-421 is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

I created a click track that shows how I'm hearing it in 7/8, split like this:

1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 || 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4
Attached Files
File Type: mp3 what is going on here-click.mp3 (1.18 MB, 19 views)

Last edited by TK-421; 06-12-2017 at 06:45 AM.
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  #9  
Old 06-12-2017, 01:22 PM
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Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Someone shoot me down if I'm wrong :D.

But TK-421, that's 7/4. Every click is a quarter note. Quarter note = 148 bpm.

I don't believe they're counting/feeling it with groupings of 3. I believe it's being felt in groupings of 4s and 2s. With groupings of 3 the guitarist will have to feel his riff going across the bars which is less comfortable, and it also makes it awkward for the drummer to feel too.

But I hear his riff as split into 6 and 8 beats. After the first 6 quarter notes, he repeats the riff which resolves after the next 8 quarter notes.

This is how I'm hearing just the guitar riff (which repeats for 8 beats at >):

.4/4 | 1+ 2__3__4+
.2/4 | 1__2+
>4/4 | 1+ 2__3__4+
.4/4 | 1__2+(3)+4



That's much easier and more logical for him and the drummer to feel and count.
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  #10  
Old 06-12-2017, 05:36 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
I created a click track that shows how I'm hearing it in 7/8, split like this:

1-2-3-4 | 1-2-3 || 1-2-3 | 1-2-3-4
Thanks for doing that. That's pretty good-- the 1s all fall on accents, except for the first one-- seems like a decent practical answer. The only problem is that it's harder to play the drum groove counting that way-- with the slow 7/4 the drum part is just a simple double time feel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin5 View Post
It's 7/4 not 7/8.
Rather, it can be 7/4 or 7/8, but you have an alternative idea.

Quote:
This is the way I'm hearing it. If you listen carefully to the guitar riff, it adds up to two bars of 7/4. However, he's breaking up the 7/4 phrasing into 2s and 4s. A bar of 4/4, a bar of 2/4 and two bars of 4/4. Then repeat.


He begins the repeat of his riff where I've bolded the third '1'.

Riff sequence 1234..12..1234..1234 (Could also be a bar of 6/4 and two bars of 4/4)
You're calling it 14/8, or 4+2+4+4/8, then. Which is equivalent to 6+8/8, or 3+4/4, or 7/4.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin5 View Post
Someone shoot me down if I'm wrong :D.
Sure-- nobody knows what to do with 14/8; it suggests a non-standard phrasing of two measures of 7/8, but it doesn't tell you what the phrasing is. 4+2+4+4/8 is way non-standard, and is begging to be reduced to something more normal. 6+8/8 is the first obvious reduction of it, but 6/8 misleadingly suggests a 3+3 phrasing, so that's no good. 3+4/4 contains the phrasing you suggest, and is a common way of writing 7/4. You could also just call it 7/4, because most musicians automatically know it's probably going to be phrased 4+3 or 3+4, and will figure it out.
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  #11  
Old 06-12-2017, 06:49 PM
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Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

I respect your opinion and knowledge Todd and we certainly won't fall out about this. This is fascinating and healthy discussion. :)

I'm not even convinced the song is in odd meter at all to be honest. The riff certainly adds up to 14 beats and there's an illusion of two bars of 7 going across the bars. But to me it's just 4/4, 2/4, 4/4, 4/4.

I found the name of the song and band so here's the full version.

https://youtu.be/VG1XNEfSiGk

There's no way in my opinion that it's being counted with any groups of 1-2-3. You even said to TK-421 it's harder to play and count the drum groove that way. Exactly right, that would be too difficult.

The tempo/quarter note isn't being felt as a slow 74bpm, and he's not playing the snare beats double time on the '+'s as though he's playing 1/8 note backbeats. Again, too over complicated. The tempo is double 74bpm. It's quarter note = 148 bpm. And the drums are playing 1/4 note backbeats at 148 bpm. So even if the song was in 7, it wouldn't be 7/8, it would be 7/4. Listen to the 4/4 section when the vocals come in. The 4/4 quarter notes (which are at 148 bpm) are the same speed as the sections implying 7.


A big clue is at the end of the song from 2:48. The word 'Lack' falls on beat 2 of the first bar and the third bar of my sequence of 4/4, 2/4 4/4, 4/4. Try counting that with groups of 3. It doesn't feel right to do that. If the drummer was counting with groups of 4 and 3, he'd have to feel his snare backbeats flipping back and forth from the 2 & 4 to the 1 & 3. He doesn't need to with groups of 4s and 2s and can groove right though more easily.

......Lack...of...........communication.. Lack....of
|1.....2.......3........4|....1......2|........1.......2........3.......4|....1.....2.......3.......4|


(Edit: 2/4 bar should be moved to the end of the line)

Last edited by Merlin5; 06-12-2017 at 08:31 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-12-2017, 07:34 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Sweet, that's on jellybnote.

https://www.jellynote.com/en/guitar-...ication#tabs:D
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2017, 08:11 PM
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Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Thanks Kamak. That midi file has clarified what I was hearing more than the original, lol.
So I got the 2/4 in the wrong place. It seems to be 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 2/4.

So that ending section would now be

......Lack...of...........communication.. Lack....of
|1.....2.......3........4|....1......2........3.........4 ..|....1.......2....3.....4|.......1.......2|
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  #14  
Old 06-13-2017, 04:12 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: What Time Sigs Are They Doing Here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin5 View Post
This is fascinating and healthy discussion. :)
Of course!

Quote:
I'm not even convinced the song is in odd meter at all to be honest. The riff certainly adds up to 14 beats and there's an illusion of two bars of 7 going across the bars. But to me it's just 4/4, 2/4, 4/4, 4/4.
Exactly the same way as I'm counting it, except your quarter notes are twice as fast. Hearing the whole song, I like your way better-- fast 6/4 + two measures of 4/4.
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