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  #41  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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If, assuming you're right handed, why would you lead with your left hand?

Wouldn't you want to do everything in a standard fashion except for the crossing of the sticks on the hats?
this explains it pretty well.. and playing standard makes less sense after seeing this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1jPudE8eRE
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  #42  
Old 05-05-2017, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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this explains it pretty well.. and playing standard makes less sense after seeing this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1jPudE8eRE
Thanks for that... Simon has one of the coolest "vibes" of any pro I've seen. Just really enjoy watching and listening to him. Same with Steve Smith and Neil Peart...very humble dudes.

I think we should remember thst no one is advocating abandoning cross playing in favor of open handed playing. All that is being said is that there should be the freedom to explore open handed playing as a viable alternative, and that someone should not be penalized or "forced" to play either way.

Actually reminiscent of the days when schools would force left handed kids to write with their right hand because that was the "correct way", or worse because the left hand was "the Devil's hand". (Yep, that's actually true boys and girls-look it up!)
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  #43  
Old 05-05-2017, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Crap I didn't see his blog and writings on the topic-thanks for pointing that out Swiss.
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  #44  
Old 05-05-2017, 03:18 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

I wish I was better open handed.

Never having to cross over actually opens up the options for your fills not hinder them. And at the end of the day, If he can teach and you can play it shouldn't matter. I would never tell someone to not play open handed or trad because I play different.

Correcting technique is one thing If I see someone going to get injured or doing something totally wacky that will hold them back.

Perhaps he was worried it would be difficult to teach you because it doesn't mirror what he is doing? Who knows. At least you guys discussed it. At the end of the day do what feels right for you. If you learn open handed though having a teacher that understands it would be best. I wouldn't want someone to learn using the hats with their left hand but the teacher telling them to start fills with the right etc.....

If your left handed or left hand lead your playing open handed on a righty kit everything will be switched... I suggest open handed rather than a lefty kit if you ever plan on playing gigs, gear sharing, open mics,etc. The drums are always set up for righty players..
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  #45  
Old 05-05-2017, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Yeah simon seems to be about the coolest guy.. someone in a comment called him the Bob Ross of drumming. Which is about as cool as you can get.
When i was looking for that video i ran into this.. and i just have to say.. WOW..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZY8raPkDys

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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Thanks for that... Simon has one of the coolest "vibes" of any pro I've seen. Just really enjoy watching and listening to him. Same with Steve Smith and Neil Peart...very humble dudes.

I think we should remember thst no one is advocating abandoning cross playing in favor of open handed playing. All that is being said is that there should be the freedom to explore open handed playing as a viable alternative, and that someone should not be penalized or "forced" to play either way.

Actually reminiscent of the days when schools would force left handed kids to write with their right hand because that was the "correct way", or worse because the left hand was "the Devil's hand". (Yep, that's actually true boys and girls-look it up!)
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  #46  
Old 05-05-2017, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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this explains it pretty well.. and playing standard makes less sense after seeing this..
There's playing open-handed, and then there's learning open-handed. Easy to confuse the two. He said it himself: SP did NOT learn to play open-handed.
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  #47  
Old 05-05-2017, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Now that there is the technology to use remote hats, it seems logical (in my feeble mind at least) to have the hats where the ride would traditionally be placed and to move the ride either above the hats or over to the left the way Pudie does it. The ride would be higher and out of the way for other drums to the left.
That way the crashes would be more accessible on the right and closer to the right hand.

Lefties can contemplate this description from in front.

Of course, it wouldn't look cool or be useful for someone who kit-shares.
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  #48  
Old 05-05-2017, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Thanks for suggesting Rayford Griffin and Lenny White. I was unfamiliar with them, but now dig both of them. Streaming Lenny white Live at this minute.
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  #49  
Old 05-05-2017, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Todd, I think many of your points "against" OHP in your blog are subjective and not equally valid for everyone, either. But there is one point actually I haven't thought about, and will think about and check it out for myself and with students: Whether or not cross lateral movements are actually more difficult to manage than lateral ones.
I'm not unbiased-- my whole thing is about getting the most results the fastest, in the least technical way possible. I don't know who that wouldn't work for-- I dig that there are people who just want to practice interesting-seeming things, and fiddle around with "perfecting" this impure instrument, and they think playing OH is a way to do that.

About same-sided coordination being easier than cross-lateral: it's just a thing I've noticed with most students-- they have a hard time not playing the right hand and bass drum together. In drumming generally up through the 30s the RH/RF were played together all the time, and a lot of bad/primitive drummers still do that. So it's apparently the path of least resistance with drumset coordination-- and a lot of things people play on the drums, right up through modern playing developments in the 60s/70s, exploit that. A lot of Syncopation-based practice methods do that, and Bob Moses talks about it with his "dependent/non-independent" method.
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  #50  
Old 05-07-2017, 12:39 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

I suspect Todd is on the right track on the whole, I'd even go further to say that someone with 9 months' experience in anything stating what they should be learning from their teacher is ridiculous. Whatever happened to keeping your mouth shut and just trying to absorb as much information from the teacher as possible and letting them (after all they have the experience) decide what they feel would be best for your progress. At least that is how it was for me and my peers back in the day, and still would be, you did after all choose him as your teacher for a reason.
As a teacher myself I'd imagine you're one of those students who teachers can't stand, probably not listening, always have an answer, doesn't practice enough, thinks they know better, no respect... just as you probably are in daily life where for the same reasons people avoid you. I'd imagine the teacher couldn't wait to take you off his books to be honest and more than likely dreaded the moments of his life he was giving up for you just for the money, and clearly the money wasn't enough.
There, I said it!
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  #51  
Old 05-07-2017, 01:30 PM
AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken is offline
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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Originally Posted by Icetech View Post
this explains it pretty well.. and playing standard makes less sense after seeing this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1jPudE8eRE
Two things about that video strike me:
- He says "whatever works", which I think is the best attitude for any drum teacher ... although my gut tells me most beginners would struggle more with open-handed
- It's kind of funny that he talks about open-handed playing being great because you can add an accent without breaking the groove ... then he plays ride with his left hand :-P (If he played ride with his right he could do the same accents without breaking the groove).
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  #52  
Old 05-07-2017, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Whatever works is the right attitutde, but if there's no real knowledge and the ability to objectively know what's really going on and the direction we're headed it doesn't matter. It's still a mess.


I've seen plenty of situations where a teacher believes so much in what they're doing and the students just buy it, often because of the teachers local status. Reality is that what's going on has no relation to learning an instrument at all. noone's learning anything, they're not building up responsible self interest and the teacher himself is barely qualified to sit in with a Freddy Fender cover band.
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  #53  
Old 05-07-2017, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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On this subject, should drummers aim to be able to play both open and cross-handed? My boy worked out for himself that "Don't Stop Believing" was played open-handed and has continued to experiment from there. Although he's clearly stronger crossed, I assumed that being able to play comfortably in both ways was something worth encouraging.

IMO, instead of dedicating time to open handed playing, drummers should instead focus on equal ability with the hands. It kills 2 birds with one stone. I never practiced open handed. I do however put huge emphasis on completely strengthening my weak hand to the point where I don't have a weak hand anymore. My weak hand is basically as adept as my strong hand now, and even though I never practiced playing open handed, I find myself automatically going there....only when it makes sense, like if my snare hand has to play the floor tom with say hi hat. Instead of doing a cross, my left hand handles the left side of the kit, and my right hand works the the right side of the kit. It definitely makes more sense than crossed....for things that would make your arms get in the way of each another. I'm a crossed player who will go open when it makes it easier for me to navigate the kit...typically 1% or less of my playing. But I think it's good to be able to switch handed-ness at any time without flipping the downbeat. It feels cool as well. It's like I can do this "backwards" or "forward" at will.

Good feeling.
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  #54  
Old 05-07-2017, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

^^ Cheers Larry.

Equality seems to be the recurring theme. And as such, natural dexterity will come a distant second to learned dexterity. IE any advantage/disadvantage gained by left/right handedness will be made less and less relevant through practice. At least, that's the understanding I've taken from the discussion.

Although (bringing it back to the OP) drumming in a way that you feel comfortable with is likely to increase your enthusiasm and help you commit to the practice that will drive your improvement. A great relationship with your teacher can be even more important than how good your teacher is. So good luck triitone - I hope you find the right instructor for you.
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  #55  
Old 05-08-2017, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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When I started playing three years ago, I pretty much knew the deal. I was left handed. Everyone else is right handed. I went through it with guitar, marksmanship, can-openers, scissors, etc. When I broke my collar bone, I had to learn to throw a baseball right handed.

I guess the point is... I got tired of being odd, so I just sucked it up and dealt with it. Whatever gains I get from leveraging my dominant had pale in comparison the the gains in the resources available to me by simply playing right handed. No teacher drama, no setup drama, no learning-material drama. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it took me a full year to develop brisk 16th notes on the hat. But it's been worth it.

While I would never tell another lefty to simply play righty, I'm happy to make them aware that playing righty is possible and extremely common among left handed players. It greatly simplifies the experience at the cost of requiring a lot more work.

Playing open handed appears to be a compromise that doesn't really solve most of the issues faced by lefties.
I'm a lefty and when I started playing (something-something years ago) my teacher said he could teach me to play either left or right handed and laid out the pros and cons of both (swapping shared kits around, etc). I ended up just playing right-handed.

Over the years, I've come to realize that this was a good choice. After learning a lot of things right-handed, I learned that I am left-handed but right-eyed. I shoot rifles right-handed but pistols left handed (but I sight with my right eye). I drum right handed, but this is good because my left hand does all the grace notes and in general I can play more sensitively with it.

I've always wanted to re-learn how to play open-handed and I mess around with it every now and then, but I am happy with how I play now. If I did play open-handed, I still wouldn't change my setup other than to drop the hi-hat down a bit. I would still use my right hand on the ride (I guess you would consider that as more of an ambidextrous style).
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  #56  
Old 05-08-2017, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Certainly try to work hands equally, which really means giving the left hand some some more in some situations as the right will naturally get more work when playing an has so for a long time.

I guess it's a bit opposite for me. I don't naturally gravitate towards more open handed playing because I've worked my right hand. I practice a good bit open handed to intentionally work the left hand.

It's not something I recommend adding unless you have the time, the will and the intention to have that kind of freedom. It should be because you're looking for the benefits it can offer. For me they're obvious. If it doesn't relate to your goals at all and it's just a chore there's no reason to.
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  #57  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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I suspect Todd is on the right track on the whole, I'd even go further to say that someone with 9 months' experience in anything stating what they should be learning from their teacher is ridiculous. Whatever happened to keeping your mouth shut and just trying to absorb as much information from the teacher as possible and letting them (after all they have the experience) decide what they feel would be best for your progress. At least that is how it was for me and my peers back in the day, and still would be, you did after all choose him as your teacher for a reason.
As a teacher myself I'd imagine you're one of those students who teachers can't stand, probably not listening, always have an answer, doesn't practice enough, thinks they know better, no respect... just as you probably are in daily life where for the same reasons people avoid you. I'd imagine the teacher couldn't wait to take you off his books to be honest and more than likely dreaded the moments of his life he was giving up for you just for the money, and clearly the money wasn't enough.
There, I said it!
I think I'm inclined to agree. It makes no sense in my mind (limited though it is...I'm a bit stupid) to pay an expert for something then ignore the advice he is trying to give. Bit like going to a driving instructor and ignoring his instruction to hold the steering wheel in the appropriate places.

I've only had a couple of drum lessons in my entire life (I'm just not that interested in learning...I'd rather just play...stupid see !) but every single item of advice I took away and used. I'd paid for that advice.

Plus people who have a fixed frame of mind are really quite irritating when it comes to the crunch. Friend of mine learning drums was explaining how he was struggling a year or so back. Turns out he's right handed but was using his left foot to play kick. So I explained what little I knew (ie. you ought probably to be using your right foot and that's possibly why you're struggling). He began to argue. "No worries" say I, "just do what you want". I'd be a really crap tutor :-)
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  #58  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:02 PM
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Teachers, therapists, doctors.... I've experienced some that I should have moved on from sooner. I think a big part of it is connection and chemistry.

As for grips, I went to a Steve Smith clinic 15 years ago. He played an intro piece, and then asked if anyone noticed how many different grips he used. I saw five, so spoke up. He confirmed that he used five, and he did that to make the point that no grip is superior, but some grips might work better for you than others while doing different things.

I think stick grip is a world where people can learn various methods and figure it out for themselves.
Even with the same grip, I use matched, always, the variations I employ to execute different things on the kit are numerous. They may not be big variations but they are obvious to me and are needed to perform certain things properly or easier. One grip? As far as I am concerned there is no such thing, its fluid.
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  #59  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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I suspect Todd is on the right track on the whole, I'd even go further to say that someone with 9 months' experience in anything stating what they should be learning from their teacher is ridiculous. Whatever happened to keeping your mouth shut and just trying to absorb as much information from the teacher as possible and letting them (after all they have the experience) decide what they feel would be best for your progress. At least that is how it was for me and my peers back in the day, and still would be, you did after all choose him as your teacher for a reason.
As a teacher myself I'd imagine you're one of those students who teachers can't stand, probably not listening, always have an answer, doesn't practice enough, thinks they know better, no respect... just as you probably are in daily life where for the same reasons people avoid you. I'd imagine the teacher couldn't wait to take you off his books to be honest and more than likely dreaded the moments of his life he was giving up for you just for the money, and clearly the money wasn't enough.
There, I said it!



That's a bit fierce, is it not? Do you know the guy you are bad mouthing? Perhaps the teacher was just a guy who can only teach one thing one way? I don't know either of the personalities involved so simply making a point.

Anyway, there is no right or wrong way to play the drums, I think we can judge that by looking at even the pro players who have massively different setups and odd, to us, ways of doing the same thing.

Up to a point, if someone chooses to spend money with a teacher, surely its up to them, the customer, what they want to get out of the lessons? Also if either of them wants to stop the arrangement, for whatever reason, then thats ok too.

The way I see it the customer wanted to play open handed because he was comfortable with it, and the teacher did not want to teach him that method. If the teacher had simply said, "I cant or dont want to teach that method, why dont you try matched a bit longer and see how it goes?" Then we would not be having this conversation. Instead it seems like he tried to prove to the guy there was an inherent fault with open handed, and failed.
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  #60  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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As a teacher myself I'd imagine you're one of those students who teachers can't stand, probably not listening, always have an answer, doesn't practice enough, thinks they know better, no respect... just as you probably are in daily life where for the same reasons people avoid you. I'd imagine the teacher couldn't wait to take you off his books to be honest and more than likely dreaded the moments of his life he was giving up for you just for the money, and clearly the money wasn't enough.
There, I said it!
Ouch. Your post conveys a presumptive, negative attitude and contempt for students, without even knowing first-hand either the OP or his teacher. I'm a teacher too (though not of drumming), but with your attitude am glad I am not your student. Its simple. The OP is paying for lessons and has a right to put money wherever he wishes. If you were learning tennis, were right-handed, but the teacher could only teach you left-hand, do you think that is the teacher for you?
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  #61  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

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I suspect Todd is on the right track on the whole, I'd even go further to say that someone with 9 months' experience in anything stating what they should be learning from their teacher is ridiculous. Whatever happened to keeping your mouth shut and just trying to absorb as much information from the teacher as possible and letting them (after all they have the experience) decide what they feel would be best for your progress. At least that is how it was for me and my peers back in the day, and still would be, you did after all choose him as your teacher for a reason.
As a teacher myself I'd imagine you're one of those students who teachers can't stand, probably not listening, always have an answer, doesn't practice enough, thinks they know better, no respect... just as you probably are in daily life where for the same reasons people avoid you. I'd imagine the teacher couldn't wait to take you off his books to be honest and more than likely dreaded the moments of his life he was giving up for you just for the money, and clearly the money wasn't enough.
There, I said it!
And I would say someone clearly as bitter and spiteful as you has no business molding the minds and skills of children, or any student for that matter. There, I said it, too.
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  #62  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Parted Ways With Drum Teacher

Whenever you hire a pro...a lawyer, a doctor, a contractor, a teacher...

Go with your gut feeling. If it doesn't feel absolutely right, keep looking. Use references to meet a person, after that forget everything you've been told and listen to your gut. If there's something there, heed it.

Putting this advice to proper use can save millions lol.

Peanut butter and jelly is great, but peanut butter and sardines?

Nothing against peanut butter or sardines respectively, but the combination of the two? Eww.

Same thing applies to combinations of people.
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