DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 12-26-2012, 02:43 PM
Swiss Matthias's Avatar
Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 3,208
Default Sonorchina!?

Have you ever seen this?

http://www.sonorchina.com/index.asp

I suppose Sonor doesn't have anything to do with that. This is unreal stuff!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-26-2012, 03:00 PM
Toolate Toolate is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 1,793
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

No idea of affiliation but the english translations are hilarious. Looked at one kit with a 16 x 21' kick too (21" deep). Looks like a joke.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-26-2012, 09:14 PM
barryabko's Avatar
barryabko barryabko is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 323
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Ther is no connection with that company and Sonor in Gemany.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-26-2012, 09:27 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,849
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

I really don't want to insult anyone,but some countries believe it's OK to just outright steal patented designs,company logos and what ever they want to make a buck.

China is one of those countries.They also make phony guitars,especially Gibsons and Fenders,with out paying the for the manufacturing rights.They make copies,and sell them as the real deal.Outright forgery.

I wonder how long it will take before they start making phony Ludwig,DW and Gretsch kits.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-26-2012, 09:57 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,860
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamadrm View Post

I wonder how long it will take before they start making phony Ludwig,DW and Gretsch kits.

Steve B
They already do, & they've been making them as long as western companies have been making phoney versions of their own drums in China. They usually trade for a few months, then pop up somewhere else.

I suspect Sonor are fighting this now, but good luck to them fighting in a Chinese court. This is one reason why we didn't bother patenting our Origin lug system. A patent is only as good as your ability to defend it. Same with trademarks.


This kit pictured below is a F&^(&%G joke, but someone will believe it - somewhere. Western brand stuff just isn't affordable in China & many other economies.

I'm going to play captain unpopular devil's advocate here: We find it completely acceptable to make all the high value components of western brand drums in China, yet get all bitchy when they come knocking on our door with their finished goods. That's not condoning this blatant copying attempt, nor a reply to anyone posting here, it's just a general observation. We turn a blind eye to the grotesque level of outsourcing hiding behind the masquerade of western brands, yet we're not prepared to pay the premium attached to domestic production. I'm a world citizen, so have no issues with totally free trade. The grotesque bit to me is the marketing veneer of patriotism and the totally unnecessary trans continental transport environmental cost. Although the kit pictured is clearly not of Sonor's manufacture, frankly, other than it's poor design basis, it's nearly as much a Sonor as Sonor's own entry level stuff.

Ok, mini rant over, let the flaming of Andy begin.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-26-2012, 09:58 PM
Beam Me Up Scotty's Avatar
Beam Me Up Scotty Beam Me Up Scotty is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 976
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Simply ridiculous. And, IMO, unacceptable.

Though I must agree, some of the translations are rather hilarious.
__________________
"God is dead." - Nietzsche, 1882

"Nietzsche is dead." - God, 1900
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-26-2012, 10:10 PM
Beam Me Up Scotty's Avatar
Beam Me Up Scotty Beam Me Up Scotty is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 976
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post

I'm going to play captain unpopular devil's advocate here: We find it completely acceptable to make all the high value components of western brand drums in China, yet get all bitchy when they come knocking on our door with their finished goods. That's not condoning this blatant copying attempt, nor a reply to anyone posting here, it's just a general observation. We turn a blind eye to the grotesque level of outsourcing hiding behind the masquerade of western brands, yet we're not prepared to pay the premium attached to domestic production. I'm a world citizen, so have no issues with totally free trade. The grotesque bit to me is the marketing veneer of patriotism and the totally unnecessary trans continental transport environmental cost. Although the kit pictured is clearly not of Sonor's manufacture, frankly, other than it's poor design basis, it's nearly as much a Sonor as Sonor's own entry level stuff.

Ok, mini rant over, let the flaming of Andy begin.
Well I'm certainly not going to flame you :)

I actually agree with you. However I'd like to add that while yes, we do turn a blind eye, at the same time, we at least know that we can expect a certain quality from a certain brand no matter where it was produced. I mean, my Tama kit is produced in china, under the Tama name. Given my past experiences with the company, plus based on their reputation, I know I'm getting a solid kit. With something like this though, while we may know better than to purchase a kit from here (indeed, we'll laugh and ridicule it), someone with little experience may not. One thing leads to another, and this could tarnish the reputations of these respectable and deeply rooted brands. Perhaps I'm blowing it out of proportion, or missed the point, but I feel it needed to be said.
__________________
"God is dead." - Nietzsche, 1882

"Nietzsche is dead." - God, 1900
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-26-2012, 10:25 PM
dmacc dmacc is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,608
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I'm going to play captain unpopular devil's advocate here: We find it completely acceptable to make all the high value components of western brand drums in China, yet get all bitchy when they come knocking on our door with their finished goods. That's not condoning this blatant copying attempt, nor a reply to anyone posting here, it's just a general observation. We turn a blind eye to the grotesque level of outsourcing hiding behind the masquerade of western brands, yet we're not prepared to pay the premium attached to domestic production. I'm a world citizen, so have no issues with totally free trade. The grotesque bit to me is the marketing veneer of patriotism and the totally unnecessary trans continental transport environmental cost. Although the kit pictured is clearly not of Sonor's manufacture, frankly, other than it's poor design basis, it's nearly as much a Sonor as Sonor's own entry level stuff.

Ok, mini rant over, let the flaming of Andy begin.
No flaming or push back from me. I completely and totally agree. Not that I'm in the manufacturing business but I've been someone who's been on the wrong end of the outsourcing game twice in my career.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-26-2012, 11:35 PM
gaz farrimond's Avatar
gaz farrimond gaz farrimond is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 227
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I'm going to play captain unpopular devil's advocate here: We find it completely acceptable to make all the high value components of western brand drums in China, yet get all bitchy when they come knocking on our door with their finished goods. That's not condoning this blatant copying attempt, nor a reply to anyone posting here, it's just a general observation. We turn a blind eye to the grotesque level of outsourcing hiding behind the masquerade of western brands, yet we're not prepared to pay the premium attached to domestic production. I'm a world citizen, so have no issues with totally free trade. The grotesque bit to me is the marketing veneer of patriotism and the totally unnecessary trans continental transport environmental cost. Although the kit pictured is clearly not of Sonor's manufacture, frankly, other than it's poor design basis, it's nearly as much a Sonor as Sonor's own entry level stuff.

Agreed; it's well known that the factory in Tianjin makes unbranded shells for stores/dealers: plus Mapex's whole line, Sonor's Force lines and other Western manufacturers entry & mid level drum shells. I know that two certain Western marques older mid-level maple shells made at the plant are, shall we say, very, very, very similar. And with all the parts made in China, who is to say these, or other Western rip-off drums, aren't actually made with parts that should have gone to Aue, Manchester, Chicago, Osaka, etc...

Sad state of affairs.
__________________
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a PIRATE, not an alcoholic...........
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-26-2012, 11:39 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,860
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beam Me Up Scotty View Post
Well I'm certainly not going to flame you :)

I actually agree with you. However I'd like to add that while yes, we do turn a blind eye, at the same time, we at least know that we can expect a certain quality from a certain brand no matter where it was produced. I mean, my Tama kit is produced in china, under the Tama name. Given my past experiences with the company, plus based on their reputation, I know I'm getting a solid kit. With something like this though, while we may know better than to purchase a kit from here (indeed, we'll laugh and ridicule it), someone with little experience may not. One thing leads to another, and this could tarnish the reputations of these respectable and deeply rooted brands. Perhaps I'm blowing it out of proportion, or missed the point, but I feel it needed to be said.
Thanks for not flaming me on this. I don't often say what I think knowing that many will disagree. It's not my intention to act as a catalyst for opposing opinion. One thing I want to make completely clear, I'm in no way maligning the quality of goods from Asia. In my previous life, & even recently, I've sourced many components myself from Asia, & I've mostly been pleased with the quality. The poor quality/good quality mix is the same as every other part of the planet so long as the process is correctly specified. Like any other location, they produce what's specified by the customer. No more, no less. And that brings me to instruments made in Asia. No issues, no issues whatsoever. So long as the customer (in this case, western based drum manufacturers) maintain a good control over their policing their own criteria, the result will be what they wanted. Tama make great drums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmacc View Post
No flaming or push back from me. I completely and totally agree. Not that I'm in the manufacturing business but I've been someone who's been on the wrong end of the outsourcing game twice in my career.
I'm sorry to hear that. On a personal level, It's a tough result, but it's borne of the need to maintain margin, & to be competitive with others who are either exporting from lower cost economies, or those competitors who are already outsourcing. If the customers of these products placed value on domestic manufacture, & were prepared to demonstrate that in the way they choose to spend their money, things may be different, but don't hold your breath. Eventually the entire globe will manufacture at a similar cost. That will entail a totally different economic model to the one that exists now. Until then, stronger economies will weaken, weaker ones will strengthen, & thus the cycle continues, so not in my lifetime.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:00 AM
gaz farrimond's Avatar
gaz farrimond gaz farrimond is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 227
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I'm sorry to hear that. On a personal level, It's a tough result, but it's borne of the need to maintain margin, & to be competitive with others who are either exporting from lower cost economies, or those competitors who are already outsourcing. If the customers of these products placed value on domestic manufacture, & were prepared to demonstrate that in the way they choose to spend their money, things may be different, but don't hold your breath. Eventually the entire globe will manufacture at a similar cost. That will entail a totally different economic model to the one that exists now.
Thats what almost put Sonor under in the late 90's. They inisited that all parts were to be made in Germany, so when you're entry level kit in 1994 is just shy of $1500 (900 at the time), there's only one way to go: Outsourcing, a decision Sonor made soon after.
__________________
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a PIRATE, not an alcoholic...........
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:09 AM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,849
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
They already do, & they've been making them as long as western companies have been making phoney versions of their own drums in China. They usually trade for a few months, then pop up somewhere else.

I suspect Sonor are fighting this now, but good luck to them fighting in a Chinese court. This is one reason why we didn't bother patenting our Origin lug system. A patent is only as good as your ability to defend it. Same with trademarks.


This kit pictured below is a F&^(&%G joke, but someone will believe it - somewhere. Western brand stuff just isn't affordable in China & many other economies.

I'm going to play captain unpopular devil's advocate here: We find it completely acceptable to make all the high value components of western brand drums in China, yet get all bitchy when they come knocking on our door with their finished goods. That's not I agree with condoning this blatant copying attempt, nor a reply to anyone posting here, it's just a general observation. We turn a blind eye to the grotesque level of outsourcing hiding behind the masquerade of western brands, yet we're not prepared to pay the premium attached to domestic production. I'm a world citizen, so have no issues with totally free trade. The grotesque bit to me is the marketing veneer of patriotism and the totally unnecessary trans continental transport environmental cost. Although the kit pictured is clearly not of Sonor's manufacture, frankly, other than it's poor design basis, it's nearly as much a Sonor as Sonor's own entry level stuff.

Ok, mini rant over, let the flaming of Andy begin.
I agree with everything you say Andy.It's just seems the price of doing business these days.Outsourcing is on a gross level,so much so that in order to keep the doors open,and turn some profit,some product has to be made overseas.We cut our own throats with this practice to a point of making it nearly impossible to make a product with out some parts made in another country.But that was true years ago also.

In the drum industry for example,lots of pearl wraps were in fact made in Italy,so drums that proudly dislplayed a made in the U.S.A..,were only partially correct.

Some of the copies(Gibson ,Fender) are so good thet they are being sold on Ebay and in some brick and mortar stores as the real thing.This has the same effect on instrument values as counterfeit currency has on an economy.

I understand the whole global economy thing,I just object to the blatant flooding of the market with phony product not licenced and not manufactured in a parent companys facility.

The same thing happens in many industries.Canada and India makes generic copies of drugs and sell them over the internet much cheaper then the parent company.

I wish I had the answers,but greed is at the base of some of these problems,with American business interests being surely present in the mix..

I just think that if you make a guitar,that's not a Gibson,and pass it off as the real thing...that it's just as criminal as sticking a gun in my face,and relieving me of by valuables....it's stealing by any other name.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:22 AM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,849
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

You know what.....I take it back about the counterfeit Ludwigs.There is a guy on Ebay selling phony Vistalites.They have what appears to be genuine Ludwig hardware and B/O badges.

The badges are definatey reproductions.As far as the shells,they couldn't be RCI because of his asking price.There must be an Asian factory making acrylic drums shells cheaply.Tama and Pearl ventured into the plastic drum market briefly,so these must be a facility overseas.That didn't last long because the competition was too stiff from companys like Ludwig,Fibes and Zicos to name a few.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-27-2012, 01:34 AM
B-squared's Avatar
B-squared B-squared is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 686
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

This is an interesting discussion. I am OK with these fake Sonors, being that I don't care if they are on the market. I don't think Sonor is going to be losing too many sales from these being confused with real Sonor drums.

If you were fooled by these, you may want to consult others before making decisions on your next car or your next pacemaker.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:35 AM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 6,265
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Eventually the entire globe will manufacture at a similar cost. That will entail a totally different economic model to the one that exists now. Until then, stronger economies will weaken, weaker ones will strengthen, & thus the cycle continues...
Any companies has to look at profits and margins, it's inevitable, if a company who makes mass production such as Sonor and Tama, to only name a couple, want to remain competitive in terms of pricing, quality and offering, they have to follow the fashion of moving their production were it's cheaper to manufacture, that's not the question if it's a "good" or "bad" decision, it's to remain at the forefront within a global market.

But the "fashion" has become so much the "norm" nowadays, almost all leading companies worldwide have been adhering to this policy, saving money, increasing the margin and making more profit, it will eventually not be cheaper in the future to move to western countries to manufacture whatever a company is producing and selling, as you said Andy, everything will eventually balance itself, no more substantial saving will be made by moving production in another part of the world.

I have no problem whatsoever with the "made in china" tag in terms of quality of entry level and mid range kits, but we should not be surprised if the western countries want to have a go at the big lion's share, however, they should do it with their own identity and their own brand, not copying and taking someone else name.
__________________
I'm Swissman
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:43 AM
wildbill's Avatar
wildbill wildbill is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Midwest - USA
Posts: 6,697
Default Re: Sonorchina!?











Yamahachina????


Sonorchina's kit looks a lot like the Yamaha HipGig kit to me.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-27-2012, 03:19 AM
evilg99's Avatar
evilg99 evilg99 is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 1,642
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post










Yamahachina????


Sonorchina's kit looks a lot like the Yamaha HipGig kit to me.
Yup , that's exactly what they're trying to do...but the best part is that it doesn't look like the bass drum isn't segmented/or opens up so that you can put other drums inside it - the whole reason for the odd size in the first place. Ha!

In my day job, I work in audio post for film/tv - back in early December I was just working on a documentary all about this problem....the doc was called Counterfeit Culture (made for CBC in Canada) - and it was really eye opening and interesting to work on.

Most of you reading this probably have no idea just how deep and large this problem of counterfeit products really is. Virtually everything and anything you can imagine (drum sets, brake pads, iPod chargers, persciption drugs) in places where you wouldn't possibly imagine (commercial airplanes, the presidents helicopter, nursing home drug supplies). If it is being manufactured, somebody in China is making cheap crappy rip offs of it.
Yeah, your fake Rolex watches for $10 in Soho...that doesn't hurt anybody. But it's the same people/manufacturing operations that are making importing and selling fake brake pads for your Honda Accord (and they take 3x the distance to stop your car, overheat and wear out 5x faster than a proper brake pad). This is not fiction - everything I mentioned above is fact. And we really only know about the tip of the iceburg. Scary stuff.

//gale force rant over//
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-27-2012, 04:00 AM
Jeremy Bender's Avatar
Jeremy Bender Jeremy Bender is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gulf Coast USA
Posts: 3,291
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

I remember many years ago there was a company with the name SONAR on the bass drum head trying to pass themselves off as the fine Germany company named Sonor.
Hmm...maybe that's why so many people mispronounce it to this day?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-27-2012, 05:36 AM
Lunar Satellite Brian's Avatar
Lunar Satellite Brian Lunar Satellite Brian is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 439
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

I for one sincerely welcome out and inChina to come to their company to do business or investment.
__________________
Musicz
Youtube
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-27-2012, 11:17 AM
Duracell Duracell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 355
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

This entire thread reminds me of this...

Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-27-2012, 03:33 PM
Cleforo Cleforo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 131
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

I saw that exact kit some time ago at amazon.de labeled as "XDrums"

http://www.amazon.de/gp/aw/images/B0...=0&h=591&w=400

hope the link works.
One 5 star rating, with an apparently genuinely satisfied customer.
Maple shells apparently, very hipgig-ish judging from the looks. Amazon can't be seen as a scam can it? :)

The kits are currently not in stock, but unless I'm mistaken the price was something between 250-300.

Wouldn't mind buying one and refinishing it :)
__________________
Yamaha RC (RA)
Meinl Byzance Jazz
http://www.youtube.com/user/Clefdrums?feature=watch
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-27-2012, 03:55 PM
Skyking's Avatar
Skyking Skyking is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 293
Default Re: Sonorchina!? Clouding The Issue

Keep it simple; IMHO there is a massive distinction between building a plant in China and licensing products to be built there and stealing a companies name and reputation.This website is nothing more than pure criminal and civil fraud. I think you kept it too simple and underplayed (note I did not say ignored) the real story here which is blatant pirating of the Sonor name, or anyone's for that matter.

Do you really think as you say... "frankly, other than it's poor design basis, it's nearly as much a Sonor as Sonor's own entry level stuff." Easy for you to say, hard to back up. Sonor has a right to be fighting mad and your opinion, while I respect it as it contains many truths, just clouds the real issue. The guys who did this website have no shame or moral code.

Last edited by Skyking; 12-28-2012 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Clarify first sentence, added is underlined.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:06 PM
buddhadrummer's Avatar
buddhadrummer buddhadrummer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Dali, Yunnan, CN
Posts: 23
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

In the interest of truth, which is basically what everyone is upset about, I believe this company bought the rights to use the Sonor name for sales within China. I live in Beijing (that's in China) and paid a visit to this factory two years ago. It's not in Tianjin as someone stated, which is about one hour south of Beijing. It's sales office is in Jinan, Shandong Province, a three hour high speed rail ride to the northeast. The factory is located far away from Jinan.

While I most certainly do not argue with the fact that there is an abundance of fake and counterfeit goods in China (I live here and believe me, it's an everyday concern), I am more surprised at the level of assumptions made in this thread, accusing the company of misappropriation.

The actual company name is Jinan XuQiu Musical Instrument Co., Ltd. The brand name is Sonor China. I bought a custom-made (logo-free) bop-sized set from them for myself and have since recommended sets to over 20 of my students here in Beijing.

Since I was only able to bring several cymbals and two snare drums with me from the States, the set I bought included all hardware, a throne and Chinese-made B20 cymbals. The price including delivery? US$245

Poor quality drumsets are the norm here and name brand sets are simply not affordable here at almost twice the price that they would be in the US. The economic situation here is not comparable to the US.

Cheap labor in China is soon coming to an end. Manufacturers will chase cheap labor around the globe, and certainly those jobs aren't returning to the US any time soon.

Please know that I am not defending China or its preponderance for fake goods. I am only interested in sharing my own preponderance for truth.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-31-2017, 03:04 PM
JohnoWorld
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

I don't think there is any need for all the hand-wringing going on here.

"I'm a world citizen, so have no issues with totally free trade" - That's an interesting standpoint, do you have a world passport?

Wikipedia says - "Citizenship is the status of a person recognized under the custom or law as being a legal member of a sovereign state" - so is the earth a sovereign state?

The lengths people go to hide their sub-conscious prejudices astounds me, especially when the explanation makes no sense whatsoever.

Having worked in china for a fortnight and having visited the fake market in shanghai, all I can say is that these products are merely homages to the actual brand.
No-one buys it thinking it's the real thing, realistically all you want is the name and the look and that's what they give you. In a country where abject poverty is rife, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all as it gives the poorest a level to aspire to. If I was in the same situation, I would do exactly the same as them.

I also echo buddhadrummers comments.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-31-2017, 06:53 PM
JohnoWorld
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

I think we all know this
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-01-2017, 12:49 AM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,157
Default Re: Sonorchina!?

Historically, Europeans are the biggest bigots when it comes to taking credit for inventing, discovering and designing things, for years they were able to go around the world doing little but trading. Sure, they were the first to write it on a piece of paper, but that's not the first to design it.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com