DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 06-17-2014, 10:23 AM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Taking back your gigs

Morning gang,

I'm not associated with any band at the moment but dep with as many as possible and with one band have had plenty of work of them over the ast few months and in the months coming up.

I have had a selection of dates in the diary since February and if you are like me that means they are in the diary and if anything else comes in you can't do it.
I got a message from the drummer i am covering asking if he could take back his gigs on this coming weekend and I'm not sure what to do.

He has said i can have a different weekend next month as a replacement but I really need that money that I had budgeted in to pay rent and eat!!! (this month has been an expensive one!)


My main issue is the last minute nature of it and that I have turned down other work as I had these dates in the diary.

I know this is against all the unwritten rules and if I had turned round at short notice and said I am not doing the gig anymore they'd be pissed as well but I'm in a position of not being able to give up the gigs as I need the money but not wznting to annoy both the drummer and band leader at the risk of losing the other work I have in the diary at the moment.


What is the groups opinions on this and also how would you approach it.

Dave
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-17-2014, 12:12 PM
No Way Jose's Avatar
No Way Jose No Way Jose is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Between the hi hat and floor tom
Posts: 90
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Talk to the other drummer.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-17-2014, 12:20 PM
STXBob's Avatar
STXBob STXBob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 73
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

I say be honest and open with the others. I hope they understand your predicament. And I hope your financial affairs are soon solved! :D
__________________
Cheers,

Bob Davis

St Croix, USVI - America's Caribbean
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-17-2014, 01:19 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Thanks guys. Already chatted to the other drummer explaining that i need the money and I'd appreciate if I could do these....he came back and said he'd appreciate it if i could swap and that he has given me loads of work already.

Implying I should be grateful and just do it.

It's a tricky situation and hopefully will resolve itself.

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-17-2014, 02:05 PM
BFrench501 BFrench501 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 170
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Maybe this is an idea ( a crazy one but...)

Let him have the gig but he pays you his cut, and you pay him when you do the replacement gig next month?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-17-2014, 02:30 PM
Davo-London's Avatar
Davo-London Davo-London is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: St Albans, I work in London
Posts: 1,367
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFrench501 View Post
Maybe this is an idea ( a crazy one but...)

Let him have the gig but he pays you his cut, and you pay him when you do the replacement gig next month?
Good shout, he wants to do the gig for whatever reason and you need the cash!

He is being a bit unfair because you may have turned down other gigs. However, if you push too hard you may be released. Can you speak to the band leader?

Davo
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-17-2014, 02:46 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 722
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Be honest with him, and the band. Let them all know that you need the money and that you have turned work down to keep the promise you made to dep.

If the other guy had given you more notice you may have been able to fill the gaps in the diary. As it is he has left it too late so I for one dont see why you should suffer. If they are paying you its a pro contract, its not like they are doing you a favor by letting you play, they are paying cos they need you.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-17-2014, 02:46 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davo-London View Post
Good shout, he wants to do the gig for whatever reason and you need the cash!

He is being a bit unfair because you may have turned down other gigs. However, if you push too hard you may be released. Can you speak to the band leader?

Davo
Hey Davo, yeah that's the tricky situation. I have spoken to the leader and he said he would do a group message on FB and sort it out.

Does anyone else think it's not cool to ask for your gigs back though? If the gigs are cancelled then that's annoying but it happens but to say oh I'm available and I'd like them back that to me feel a bit wrong. I'm not sure I would ever do that. No matter how desperate I was for the cash.

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-17-2014, 02:48 PM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Kent, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,384
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

I certainly wouldn't do it. In a professional context, I'd assume that I'd be taking away work that you've already given to somebody that they have already accounted for, even if it's just an extra takeaway that month - it all adds up.

Something like a publicly viewable Google calendar that only you can update might be an idea for potential clients. It would make booking a lot easier for you.
__________________
Bring Me Coffee or Tea
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-17-2014, 02:53 PM
WhoIsTony?'s Avatar
WhoIsTony? WhoIsTony? is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: the city that never sleeps
Posts: 1,232
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

have you spent time on preparations for this gig ?

are the gigs you tuned down still available ?

I feel for you brother... I really do

my heart is telling me that you need to give him his gigs back Dave .... while letting him know in a non aggressive way that this situation is very unprofessional

I am a believer in Karma .... it has proven too many times in my life to exists for me not to be

a wise man once told me.... when dealing with people in business, always treat everyone as a gentleman....not because they are ... but because YOU are

keep me posted brother
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-17-2014, 03:04 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
I certainly wouldn't do it. In a professional context, I'd assume that I'd be taking away work that you've already given to somebody that they have already accounted for, even if it's just an extra takeaway that month - it all adds up.

Something like a publicly viewable Google calendar that only you can update might be an idea for potential clients. It would make booking a lot easier for you.
I like that idea. I'll look into it mate.

Yeah it all adds.

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-17-2014, 03:04 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 12,854
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Beings he has already given you loads of work...And you want to continue to keep getting more from him, in a way, he's an employer of yours. If you stand your ground you may win the battle but lose the war.

How would you feel if you had to take YOUR gigs back, and someone didn't want to give them back. You may feel they are ungrateful...possibly. The hardest thing to do is usually the best thing to do, so I vote for giving them back graciously, like Tony described.
__________________
Now go fetch your shine box like a good little Wumpus.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-17-2014, 03:08 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
have you spent time on preparations for this gig ?

are the gigs you tuned down still available ?

I feel for you brother... I really do

my heart is telling me that you need to give him his gigs back Dave .... while letting him know in a non aggressive way that this situation is very unprofessional

I am a believer in Karma .... it has proven too many times in my life to exists for me not to be

a wise man once told me.... when dealing with people in business, always treat everyone as a gentleman....not because they are ... but because YOU are

keep me posted brother
Hey Tony, yeah i'm with you.

Gigs are all gone. Turned em down a few months ago....which is unfortunate.

I believe in Karma and I in all reality am not missin out on money as i'd have those 2 gigs just 3 weeks later. It's just needing the cash now.

Karma should work itself out. Hopefully.

As a very experienced gigger has this happened to you Tony?

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-17-2014, 03:13 PM
WhoIsTony?'s Avatar
WhoIsTony? WhoIsTony? is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: the city that never sleeps
Posts: 1,232
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Major View Post
Hey Tony, yeah i'm with you.

Gigs are all gone. Turned em down a few months ago....which is unfortunate.

I believe in Karma and I in all reality am not missin out on money as i'd have those 2 gigs just 3 weeks later. It's just needing the cash now.

Karma should work itself out. Hopefully.

As a very experienced gigger has this happened to you Tony?

D
in all my years has never happened

I have been subbing on gigs and had the drummer I was subbing for show up at the gig because his plans or alternate gig fell through..... but never had anyone ask for the gig back

highly unprofessional
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-17-2014, 03:25 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Beings he has already given you loads of work...And you want to continue to keep getting more from him, in a way, he's an employer of yours. If you stand your ground you may win the battle but lose the war.

How would you feel if you had to take YOUR gigs back, and someone didn't want to give them back. You may feel they are ungrateful...possibly. The hardest thing to do is usually the best thing to do, so I vote for giving them back graciously, like Tony described.
I understand that Larry. I'd never take a gig back of someone though especially at 5 days notice.

Even if I had a 9-5 job and the gigs were extra cash in my pocket I'd honour the agreement I made with the guy i hired.

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-17-2014, 03:27 PM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 9,817
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
my heart is telling me that you need to give him his gigs back Dave .... while letting him know in a non aggressive way that this situation is very unprofessional
Agreed.

It sucks and it speaks volumes about this guy.....but ultimately, it's his gig. You're the hired gun and unfortunately, they just don't need you at the agreed time after all. Yes, he's being unprofessional, but you'd definitely stand to lose more in the long run if you insisted on keeping it. You're better off preserving your reputation by being professional, agreeable, adaptable and easy to work with (all the things he ain't being in this scenario), even if it means being put out on this occasion.
__________________
What's the best cape for running away from a gig?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:26 PM
bermuda's Avatar
bermuda bermuda is online now
Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,670
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Major View Post
Does anyone else think it's not cool to ask for your gigs back though? If the gigs are cancelled then that's annoying but it happens but to say oh I'm available and I'd like them back that to me feel a bit wrong.
You're right, people should honor their commitments. But you mentioned "unwritten rules" and that's also true. There's no way to enforce someone at their word in this case. FWIW, offering another gig to make-up for this one indicates that he's trying to be fair, so his actions aren't malicious, they're just a detriment at this particular time.

I think the best you can do is roll with it, hang in there on the money, and hope it doesn't become a habit with him.

I had a gig pulled out of my mouth at the last minute, by a band I was subbing with for the first time. I was offered another in its place at substantially less money (but substantially closer to home, so it was really a wash for me.) By being agreeable to the swap, I made a friend and will work with him again.

Bermuda
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:29 PM
BFrench501 BFrench501 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 170
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Some very sage advice given in this thread. The situation sucks but I suppose to keep things sweet you have to cave in. Lessons to be learned for all of us...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:26 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Hey gents, thanks for all the advice. Much appreciated from everyone.

I have messaged the guy and as delicately as i could explained my situation and offered a compromise. I do one you do one or I do one next week (the band has 3 gigs next weekend)

I will see what he says.

As a side note. I have been through the situation of gigs falling through lots and it always seems to happen all at the same time and it always seems that when things are crap all of a sudden loads of other stuff comes through.

The finances will work themselves out. The amount of gigs I have in the summer. (i am out every weekend In july and august...at least once if not more) will take care of that So that's cool it's just the next couple of weeks is all.

Times like these do make you stronger and I am depping with loads of bands in order to spread myself a little wider and make the dead spots in the diary less frequent.

Much love ya'll

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:31 PM
Mikeyboyeee's Avatar
Mikeyboyeee Mikeyboyeee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 64
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

I would never ask to 'take a gig back' no matter what the circumstances...

BUT, if I was in your shoes subbing for a band and their regular guy (for whatever reason) was available and wanted to do the gig - I'd let it go and probably not think twice about it...

*** As long as it wasn't the night of the gig and we both show up to play!! Yes, I've had that happen as well... AWKWARD
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:32 PM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Kent, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,384
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

The best advert for your services is a busy gig schedule. Go for it, mate.
__________________
Bring Me Coffee or Tea
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:39 PM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,556
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

I've seen this situation pop up a few times. Once, a bass player friend I had was moving to Seattle and was looking for a bassist to replace him. I auditioned and got the slot, but 3 months later he moved back and called wondering if he could have his job back. That was a weird situation, with him being a friend and all. At the same time the guitarist was thinking about retiring and moving on, so the old bassist moved to guitar, and the problem worked itself out. That was still a pretty odd move for somebody to do, though.

The most recent one was with our conga player going on tour and leaving us with about 4 gigs to find subs for. We have a sub lined up who is able to do the gigs, so we were set. When he got to Australia, they wouldn't allow him into the country (I still don't know why) so he flew home for 2 weeks, during which time he asked for his gigs back. We told him to ask his sub, so he did, and his sub said, "no." It was short notice, same situation here, but with no intent to offer a traded gig.

As a hired gun on this one, I would accept the offer to swap out a gig. While it creates a knot in my gut from the unprofessionalism of it all, I think you should roll with this one, sucky as it is...
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-18-2014, 02:40 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Hey gents, todays update!

So the guy is having his gigs back, like everyone said there's not really anything I can do other than try and explain how unprofessional it is...i did in as nice a way as possible.

I have those gigs in July and he pulled another gig from me but I've managed to fill that with something else with some good players and guys I want to get in with so win win!

Anyway he messaged me today apologising but saying he appreciates the work i have done so far and so does the band leader. I think he has spoken to the band leader and he has said don't piss off your dep!

I will speak to the band leader and let him know my feelings (again in a nice way!) and discuss how we go forward. Gigs are either confirmed or provisional and if they are provisional then I will take anything else that comes in that is confirmed!

Anyways thanks again for all your advice and onwards and upwards!

Dave
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-18-2014, 03:28 PM
WhoIsTony?'s Avatar
WhoIsTony? WhoIsTony? is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: the city that never sleeps
Posts: 1,232
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Major View Post
Hey gents, todays update!

So the guy is having his gigs back, like everyone said there's not really anything I can do other than try and explain how unprofessional it is...i did in as nice a way as possible.

I have those gigs in July and he pulled another gig from me but I've managed to fill that with something else with some good players and guys I want to get in with so win win!

Anyway he messaged me today apologising but saying he appreciates the work i have done so far and so does the band leader. I think he has spoken to the band leader and he has said don't piss off your dep!

I will speak to the band leader and let him know my feelings (again in a nice way!) and discuss how we go forward. Gigs are either confirmed or provisional and if they are provisional then I will take anything else that comes in that is confirmed!

Anyways thanks again for all your advice and onwards and upwards!

Dave
I had a very short basic contract drawn up by my lawyer that I use on a very rare occasion where I may not know or trust those I am about to work for .

like I said ... I very rarely use it ... and when I do after I explain why I am asking whoever is signing the check to sign it they fully understand and do so with no questions asked.... it protects them as well as me so most actually feel really good about it .
when they don't know me as much as I don't know or trust them it covers everyones ass by tying me to fulfill my duties and them to furnish payment upon completion.

you may want to think about something like that if you are to be doing lots of work like this ... and include a clause that says if a gig is reneged within a certain period of time that you still receive said wages

glad it all worked out brother
you did the right thing and will be rewarded indirectly .... I believe that
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-18-2014, 03:39 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 722
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

They should also look at it from your perspective. You dep for them, on a regular basis, so thye know and trust you on a professional and a playing level. If they want and need you to remain a reliable dep they should stick to the agreement.

It works both ways, If they want you to trust them when they agree work with you then they have to stick to the agreement. If this were to put a doubt in your head as to there reliability and you may look for work elsewhere and not trust them next time the call comes. Then they would have to start again with a drummer they dont know.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-18-2014, 03:51 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
I had a very short basic contract drawn up by my lawyer that I use on a very rare occasion where I may not know or trust those I am about to work for .

like I said ... I very rarely use it ... and when I do after I explain why I am asking whoever is signing the check to sign it they fully understand and do so with no questions asked.... it protects them as well as me so most actually feel really good about it .
when they don't know me as much as I don't know or trust them it covers everyones ass by tying me to fulfill my duties and them to furnish payment upon completion.

you may want to think about something like that if you are to be doing lots of work like this ... and include a clause that says if a gig is reneged within a certain period of time that you still receive said wages

glad it all worked out brother
you did the right thing and will be rewarded indirectly .... I believe that

Cheers man. I'm a member of the Musicians Union here in the UK and they have contracts for all these things. I have done the same thing as you if someone i am not sure on or a total out of the blue gig with no connections to check. And it helped me get paid as the guy was not honouring the agreement and the Union got involved and chased him for me and I got my money.

Stuff will work itself out. Hello Karma!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
They should also look at it from your perspective. You dep for them, on a regular basis, so thye know and trust you on a professional and a playing level. If they want and need you to remain a reliable dep they should stick to the agreement.

It works both ways, If they want you to trust them when they agree work with you then they have to stick to the agreement. If this were to put a doubt in your head as to there reliability and you may look for work elsewhere and not trust them next time the call comes. Then they would have to start again with a drummer they dont know.
That is exactly my position and it is i belive the position of the guitarist and the band leader. Just the drummer. The next time I gig with them -11th july - i'll be clear to say that I need to either treat the gigs as definite's and then they can't change them with 5 days notice or i treat them all as possibles and if something else comes in then I take that.

I have to run my business just as they have to run theirs and if we are all cool and honest with each other then we will all be happy.

Dave
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-18-2014, 06:55 PM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,556
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Major View Post

I'll be clear to say that I need to either treat the gigs as definite's and then they can't change them with 5 days notice or i treat them all as possibles and if something else comes in then I take that.

I have to run my business just as they have to run theirs and if we are all cool and honest with each other then we will all be happy.
FIVE DAYS?!?!? Man, I would say 2 weeks! I don't know about what your situation is, but it would be hard for me to come up with a replacement gig 5 days in advance.

You don't HAVE to run your business like theirs. In fact, I would discourage you from doing so. Maybe set up boundaries/contracts with this group from now on, but definitely don't start doing your business with other people like their drummer does--it appears bullyish from my perspective, and where I'm from, you're hired for gigs as much for your personality and likeability as you are your professionalism and musical skills. Being "grabby" for gigs might just stack the cards against you with other bands/people.
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-18-2014, 07:39 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Totally agree caddy, i meant thet 5 days is nowhere near enough time. 2 weeks minimum and a month even better.


The band is almost separate from the drummer in their perspective and views and think they side with me on this.

anyway guys being a douche. He can have the gigs I'll watch the world cup.

:-)
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-18-2014, 07:41 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Also meant that I need to run a business and so do they. It's the music business and the same principles apply that do in other businesses

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-18-2014, 10:06 PM
Otto Otto is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,119
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

What does the WRITTEN/SIGNED contract say?

No written/signed contract?...what matters is the direction of the person who contracted the $ exchange.

Always get gigs in a written/signed boilerplate approved by your lawyer for the region you are working in.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-18-2014, 10:12 PM
WhoIsTony?'s Avatar
WhoIsTony? WhoIsTony? is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: the city that never sleeps
Posts: 1,232
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post

Always get gigs in a written/signed boilerplate approved by your lawyer for the region you are working in.
in a perfect world sure.... but out here in the real world it doesn't always work that way
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-19-2014, 02:50 AM
MileHighDrummer's Avatar
MileHighDrummer MileHighDrummer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Denver / Los Angeles
Posts: 388
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Beings he has already given you loads of work...And you want to continue to keep getting more from him, in a way, he's an employer of yours. If you stand your ground you may win the battle but lose the war.
I think it totally depends on the amount of notice given. If he gave you less than a weeks notice, I would not readily acquiesce to his request. Regardless of how much work he has given, decency dictates that there should be a minimum notification prior to taking back a gig that has been given. Let him know you have already turned down other work for this weekend and that he should pay you for the gig he wants back. Either way manning up for yourself may cost you future work for this band.
__________________
Steve
"When I can match Buddy Rich, lick for lick, I will get a rack."
Ludwig Super Classic Maple
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-19-2014, 03:49 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,653
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

I'm confused. I would have thought the decision would rest with the band and/or bandleader. You'd imagine they'd prefer to play with their regular drummer but I haven't depped for decades. It's an awkward situation that requires careful words.
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-19-2014, 09:08 AM
Skitch's Avatar
Skitch Skitch is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,751
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

I suppose the answer would lie in how much you want to work this band again in the future. There are many ways to handle this, but that is the real question. There have been bands that I have worked with in the past that I simply refuse to work with ever again because the band leader or the drummer that I was or would be subbing for was just too much of a liar and could not be trusted to keep his word. In some instances, a couple of the bands had stolen some intellectual property and were using it without consent.

When you were offered the gig, it sounds as though you were not really offered the gig – you were simply “on standby in case this other drummer’s other thing didn’t work out.” No one can operate in that manner. I don’t do “standby”; I’m in a business and if they need me on a standby basis, then they need to pay me a retainer so that I will be available if they need me. Otherwise, they don't get to tie up my time without my being compensated.

This business is a business of relationships and trust, as Zoro once told me, and that is true. I don’t know that you can get anyone to sign a contract (around here the scene is way too casual) which has been suggested.

If you’re willing to risk it, you may choose to be unavailable the next time they need you as you’re in demand as a substitute. Yes, they may suspect but can’t prove anything. You just simply say that you can’t do it because you are unavailable. They will then have to make do with whomever they can find – good or bad. If you have experience already with the band, they will most likely not enjoy having to chase down another drummer, rehearse and put up with breaking someone in for a couple of gigs a you are already a known, reliable commodity.

This does work and not just with drummers. One bandleader I work with canceled on one bar to go play another bar. When it came time for our next gig at the jilted bar, there was another band setting up when we arrived. The irony of it is, was that I told him not to cancel that gig, that the other bar had plenty of open dates for us to play. Again, it is about not violating that established relationship.

I might recommend dealing with the bandleader directly. However, there are many bandleaders who enjoy pitting one drummer against another – it gives them a real ego trip to manipulate people (prevalent in the Dallas music scene as there are many drummers desperate to play there). One bandleader enjoys telling other drummers how his drummer (a long-time friend) is lazy and is “being a titty-baby” just because his long-time buddy won’t do what the bandleader wants. Yeah, he’s a real slimeball so be leery when a bandleader of musician starts berating their steady drummer to you.

So my 2 cents is to not be available the next time the drummer needs you, for any amount of money. Because your word and your integrity is worth more than all of the money in the world.

I have many other real world stories regarding this business that I would love to share some time. Many of them are really outrageous (and funny). Some are creative solutions to problems in this business.



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com
http://www.patentcoachmike.com
http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemccraw
http://twitter.com/mikemccraw
http://www.skillpages.com/mike.mccraw
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-19-2014, 01:43 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
I suppose the answer would lie in how much you want to work this band again in the future. There are many ways to handle this, but that is the real question. There have been bands that I have worked with in the past that I simply refuse to work with ever again because the band leader or the drummer that I was or would be subbing for was just too much of a liar and could not be trusted to keep his word. In some instances, a couple of the bands had stolen some intellectual property and were using it without consent.

When you were offered the gig, it sounds as though you were not really offered the gig – you were simply “on standby in case this other drummer’s other thing didn’t work out.” No one can operate in that manner. I don’t do “standby”; I’m in a business and if they need me on a standby basis, then they need to pay me a retainer so that I will be available if they need me. Otherwise, they don't get to tie up my time without my being compensated.

This business is a business of relationships and trust, as Zoro once told me, and that is true. I don’t know that you can get anyone to sign a contract (around here the scene is way too casual) which has been suggested.

If you’re willing to risk it, you may choose to be unavailable the next time they need you as you’re in demand as a substitute. Yes, they may suspect but can’t prove anything. You just simply say that you can’t do it because you are unavailable. They will then have to make do with whomever they can find – good or bad. If you have experience already with the band, they will most likely not enjoy having to chase down another drummer, rehearse and put up with breaking someone in for a couple of gigs a you are already a known, reliable commodity.

This does work and not just with drummers. One bandleader I work with canceled on one bar to go play another bar. When it came time for our next gig at the jilted bar, there was another band setting up when we arrived. The irony of it is, was that I told him not to cancel that gig, that the other bar had plenty of open dates for us to play. Again, it is about not violating that established relationship.

I might recommend dealing with the bandleader directly. However, there are many bandleaders who enjoy pitting one drummer against another – it gives them a real ego trip to manipulate people (prevalent in the Dallas music scene as there are many drummers desperate to play there). One bandleader enjoys telling other drummers how his drummer (a long-time friend) is lazy and is “being a titty-baby” just because his long-time buddy won’t do what the bandleader wants. Yeah, he’s a real slimeball so be leery when a bandleader of musician starts berating their steady drummer to you.

So my 2 cents is to not be available the next time the drummer needs you, for any amount of money. Because your word and your integrity is worth more than all of the money in the world.

I have many other real world stories regarding this business that I would love to share some time. Many of them are really outrageous (and funny). Some are creative solutions to problems in this business.



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com
http://www.patentcoachmike.com
http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemccraw
http://twitter.com/mikemccraw
http://www.skillpages.com/mike.mccraw
Hi Mike, thanks for pitching in.

Always great to hear from really experienced players and I'm perversely glad this isn't an uncommon thing to happen.

The deed is done now and I've managed to scrape some cash together to get through this month.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that I'm either booked, on retainer or I can find other gigs. It is a wedding band and I'm sure they won't pay me retainer so its only option A or C.

At the next gig I will discuss this with the band leader. He doesn't want the headache of having to find other drummers so wants to keep me happy as I pride myself on being reliable which I know he appreciates.

Shall see if Karma prevailes and I end up being booked for this weekend or next somewhere else.

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-25-2014, 08:51 AM
xchriscollinsx's Avatar
xchriscollinsx xchriscollinsx is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 28
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

seems everyone has answered, and you made your move.
Another option for the future would be something like
"sure, no problem, if you could please pay me 25% of the scheduled rate for the gig, and I will gladly fullfill the rest of the gigs I have booked with you."

gets you some of your money without being greedy, shows you're not a pushover, and makes them think twice about screwing you over on another one.

-chris
__________________
www.xchriscollinsx.com
DRUMMER: Local & Touring Gigs. Studio Sessions. Music Videos.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-25-2014, 12:36 PM
STXBob's Avatar
STXBob STXBob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 73
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileHighDrummer View Post
I think it totally depends on the amount of notice given. If he gave you less than a weeks notice, I would not readily acquiesce to his request. Regardless of how much work he has given, decency dictates that there should be a minimum notification prior to taking back a gig that has been given. Let him know you have already turned down other work for this weekend and that he should pay you for the gig he wants back. Either way manning up for yourself may cost you future work for this band.
I'm with you. From the start, I thought the drummer Dave was depping for is being a tool. First, because he had an existing deal which he appears totally fine with reneging on. Second, over and above the tool-ish reneging, doing so on such short notice.

I'd be very angry. That's why I've been following this thread so closely. It's good to have negotiating techniques in your stick bag. ;-) After some thought, I'd like to describe how I'd approach this.

Note: I am not a professional making a living at his instrument. So the following advice probably stinks.

I'd ask the guy what his concept of "an agreement" is. We have a deal. Breaking that deal is a d!ck move. That's true regardless of my financial situation (i.e., needing the money the gig brings). Breaking an existing agreement without a pretty impressive exigent circumstance is a d!ck move. Just "Oh, hi, I'm back and I no longer need you" is a MASSIVE d!ck move. Whether it's tomorrow night or a month from now, I've cleared my schedule, done my homework, and committed to the deal.

I'll certainly never work for him again. And I'll tell him exactly why.

But like I said, that's easy for me. I can afford to tell arseholes "bollocks".

I hope everything works out, Mr Major. You've got a real sticky wicket to deal with and no mistake.
__________________
Cheers,

Bob Davis

St Croix, USVI - America's Caribbean
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-25-2014, 04:45 PM
Dave_Major's Avatar
Dave_Major Dave_Major is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 454
Default Re: Taking back your gigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
I'm with you. From the start, I thought the drummer Dave was depping for is being a tool. First, because he had an existing deal which he appears totally fine with reneging on. Second, over and above the tool-ish reneging, doing so on such short notice.

I'd be very angry. That's why I've been following this thread so closely. It's good to have negotiating techniques in your stick bag. ;-) After some thought, I'd like to describe how I'd approach this.

Note: I am not a professional making a living at his instrument. So the following advice probably stinks.

I'd ask the guy what his concept of "an agreement" is. We have a deal. Breaking that deal is a d!ck move. That's true regardless of my financial situation (i.e., needing the money the gig brings). Breaking an existing agreement without a pretty impressive exigent circumstance is a d!ck move. Just "Oh, hi, I'm back and I no longer need you" is a MASSIVE d!ck move. Whether it's tomorrow night or a month from now, I've cleared my schedule, done my homework, and committed to the deal.

I'll certainly never work for him again. And I'll tell him exactly why.

But like I said, that's easy for me. I can afford to tell arseholes "bollocks".

I hope everything works out, Mr Major. You've got a real sticky wicket to deal with and no mistake.
Hey Bob.

Straight up he is being a big d!ck. I think that's universally the opinion here.

The thing is I have 12 other gigs with them up to August (nothing after that) and I can't run the risk of losing those gigs this close to the date. If I had 4 then I would be giving him a massive earful and let him know exactly what I feel (professionally of course!!)

Just the decision i needed to make at the time (gigs were last weekend) and just deal with it.

It takes a lifetime to build up a reputation and a second to destroy it so I'd rather keep as many people happy as possible and bide my time.

But oh how I would like to give him a massive kick in the danglies!!

D
__________________


Dave Major
Professional Drummer
www.dave-major.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com