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  #41  
Old 01-31-2014, 05:53 PM
JohnW JohnW is offline
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by coolhand1969 View Post
Then I think I may move to Australia, because my experience in personal life and business is" Thank you, please direct any further correspondence directly to my lawyer"

But, this is America, land of opportunity and freedom: where not everyone has basic health insurance and access to medication, where we produce more food than the world could eat, but children and their families go to bed at night hungry and there are 70,000 homeless people in Dallas TX alone.

If you don't like what I just said, fine, vote in another GW Busch, but don't dare challenge the fact I am telling the truth! By the way, I lost my biological father in Vietnam, my adopted father served frontline in Korea (won a purpleheart) and I have done my service in the Armed service. Paid my dues to speak my mind!

Probably just got banned, but it was freakin worth it!
I wonder which will get banned first. This post above or a challenge to the post's non challenge-challenge?
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  #42  
Old 01-31-2014, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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I wonder which will get banned first. This post above or a challenge to the post's non challenge-challenge?
Clear as mud John :)
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  #43  
Old 01-31-2014, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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I say, well done sir!
I'm pretty good at internet sleuthing. Totally white hat though. And my services are available at a nominal rate. http://oceansites.net
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  #44  
Old 01-31-2014, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Reach us by phone : 855-8-IMPERIAL Give it a go.
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  #45  
Old 01-31-2014, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

[quote=coolhand1969;1225517]there are 70,000 homeless people in Dallas TX alone./QUOTE]

There are approximately 79,000 homeless in the state of Texas, but closer to 3,000 in Dallas. I am not downplaying the unfortunate nature of homelessness, but your post paints an inaccurate picture.
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  #46  
Old 01-31-2014, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

[quote=firesgt911;1225730]
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhand1969 View Post
there are 70,000 homeless people in Dallas TX alone./QUOTE]

There are approximately 79,000 homeless in the state of Texas, but closer to 3,000 in Dallas. I am not downplaying the unfortunate nature of homelessness, but your post paints an inaccurate picture.
We have over 10,000 homeless in San Diego. The weather is always nice so it's not too rough for those sleeping outdoors. It's really quite sad to see.

I oftentimes wonder what our world would have been like had we taken the "war on drugs" money and fed infrastructure, education, the arts, science, etc. Well I guess we know how it turns out when that stuff is NOT considered... :\
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  #47  
Old 01-31-2014, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Clear as mud John :)
Just want to make sure there are no misunderstandings, Andy! :)
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  #48  
Old 01-31-2014, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Off the rails....meet thread.:)

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  #49  
Old 02-01-2014, 01:47 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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  #50  
Old 02-01-2014, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Lovely.....LOL........
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  #51  
Old 02-01-2014, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Oh yes you have now met the big boys and they don't like tiny tots.

I was in the model car shop and they were bitching about the bakery's prices. (one palstic car is for sale at $300.)

REally, you can't sit at your location and not go out in the street and protest.
because nobody has done it for the last 25 years you are now in 'stupid reality world' where you are not allowed to protest.
so now you and your mates are not allowed to comment. if you do and you have you look pretty silly.
you only have one right and that is what legal defence you choose. that's it!

How long is it going to take for you to realise that you can't just go to work and go home.
Because 'they' are thinking of ways to rob you while your working. You will be put in a situation of 'the only possible route is revolution'.
2008 did happen and it has real consiquences. Your business is always going to get attacked by other businesses. dog eat dog.
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  #52  
Old 02-01-2014, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Unless a homeless guy from Dallas by way of San Diego runs Imperial... can we stay on topic?

You too Dreyn.

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  #53  
Old 02-01-2014, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

On the flip-side, giving them the benefit of the doubt, it may be that they are so backlogged with orders that they simply cannot produce enough cymbals to fulfill their orders on certain cymbals.

Not calling back, or being evasive with customers? How is that anything new? We get it all the time with these recorded company help lines that have you endlessly pressing numbers for this and that rather than having to pay actual people in a call center over in India.

It may be that Imperial Cymbals is a small company who are in over their heads. I've never heard an Imperial cymbal, I'm sure there are a few brands that come from the same Turkish cymbal manufacturer. Maybe they are waiting for that manufacturing company to fulfill its orders with them and the other cymbal companies that buy from them. It's just hard to imagine a company operating this badly.
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  #54  
Old 02-01-2014, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Unless a homeless guy from Dallas by way of San Diego runs Imperial... can we stay on topic?

You too Dreyn.

Bermuda
Yes, thanks for collaring me. :D I'm known to sprawl.
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  #55  
Old 02-01-2014, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
On the flip-side, giving them the benefit of the doubt, it may be that they are so backlogged with orders that they simply cannot produce enough cymbals to fulfill their orders on certain cymbals.
If they're doing so much business, they need to hire more people.

Quote:
Not calling back, or being evasive with customers? How is that anything new?

It may be that Imperial Cymbals is a small company who are in over their heads.
They're not too over their heads to monitor their Facebook page - so why can't they generate an email reply?

Bermuda
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  #56  
Old 02-01-2014, 02:43 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
If they're doing so much business, they need to hire more people.



They're not too over their heads to monitor their Facebook page - so why can't they generate an email reply?

Bermuda
True. I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt. I saw the FB page and noticed it was riddled with current posts too. Therein lies the question. why the silence? What's that all about? Maybe they are operating this way under strict lawyer's advice?
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  #57  
Old 02-01-2014, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
Maybe they are operating this way under strict lawyer's advice?
If that were the case, there wouldn't be anything preventing them from putting out some form of statement to that effect, if they were decent minded people.

If you take someone's money, fail to provide the goods as contracted, then fail to communicate when you're clearly able to continue promoting, then you're plainly putting one finger up at your creditors. If someone put up any form of negative feedback on our FB page I'd be mortified. I'd be straight on there explaining the situation, not deleting the post, unless it was clearly trolling. Of course, if it gets to the stage of customers posting major negatives on your FB page, you've already failed to communicate effectively.
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  #58  
Old 02-01-2014, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Hey Everybody!

I apologize for my posts in this thread, I do not apologize for my beliefs, but this was the wrong place to impose them on others. That is why I pay a therapist $78 an hour once a week, to vent and let go.

I made a mistake, not the first one I have made and certainly not the last, but I am not here to start fights or arguments. I am here to learn, to hopefully help some new drummers and to have fun.

This is the best drum forum there is and I truly thought I was about to get banned for my comments. Thank you to the Admins for having patience with me.

This will not happen again.

Sorry!
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  #59  
Old 02-01-2014, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by coolhand1969 View Post
Hey Everybody!

I apologize for my posts in this thread, I do not apologize for my beliefs, but this was the wrong place to impose them on others. That is why I pay a therapist $78 an hour once a week, to vent and let go.

I made a mistake, not the first one I have made and certainly not the last, but I am not here to start fights or arguments. I am here to learn, to hopefully help some new drummers and to have fun.

This is the best drum forum there is and I truly thought I was about to get banned for my comments. Thank you to the Admins for having patience with me.

This will not happen again.

Sorry!
Good turn around, we all have our views and in conversation we all say a lot of things off the cuff. bringing them up here makes it look bad, but face to face its just one thought in a discussion and easily accepted. in my eyes ( not in charge here) you weren't that bad.
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  #60  
Old 02-01-2014, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Good turn around, we all have our views and in conversation we all say a lot of things off the cuff. bringing them up here makes it look bad, but face to face its just one thought in a discussion and easily accepted. in my eyes ( not in charge here) you weren't that bad.
Thank you, under alot of pressure from all sides and just lost it. It is so easy to fire off a post or an email and then wish you could take it back, but once it is written there is nothing you can do. As I said, I expected to be banned for crossing the line, but the Admins did a great job. I am listening to Achilles Last Stand and it punches home why I am here.
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  #61  
Old 02-01-2014, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

If Imperial keeps deleting negative comments from their FB page, you could always set up a separate page of your own telling your story, calling it "I was ripped off by Imperial Cymbals"... It would get a lot of search engine hits within Facebook and on Google. Best of all, they can't delete anything there. They have to ask Facebook to remove the page, and that's not a foregone conclusion.
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  #62  
Old 02-01-2014, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Unless a homeless guy from Dallas by way of San Diego runs Imperial... can we stay on topic?

You too Dreyn.

Bermuda
Bermuda...that's about as on topic as Dreyn gets.He's Sir Spam a Lot.:)

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  #63  
Old 02-01-2014, 07:02 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Originally Posted by alparrott View Post
If Imperial keeps deleting negative comments from their FB page, you could always set up a separate page of your own telling your story, calling it "I was ripped off by Imperial Cymbals"... It would get a lot of search engine hits within Facebook and on Google. Best of all, they can't delete anything there. They have to ask Facebook to remove the page, and that's not a foregone conclusion.
That's how I feel.Post a carefully worded statement on all of the social networks,as well as all the drum forums on the planet,that will allow it.Get the word out,about how these guys operate.

What the're doing,is not just morally wrong,it's illegal.Petit larceny,grand larceny,fraud,internet fraud,fraudulent accosting.It would be worth a few hundred bucks,to have an attorney,draw up a legally correct statement,as to avoid slander/libel charges.

You're bound to get some traction.They cant just keep doing the ostridge thing,and expect to keep ripping people off.If vthere was a legit reason for them ,not being able to ship product,there would be a carefully worded statement on all of their internet sites.

Like I said before,give them fair warning,and,if they still don't respond, then ...rip em' a new one.

Steve B
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  #64  
Old 02-01-2014, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by coolhand1969 View Post
Hey Everybody!

I apologize for my posts in this thread, I do not apologize for my beliefs, but this was the wrong place to impose them on others. That is why I pay a therapist $78 an hour once a week, to vent and let go.

I made a mistake, not the first one I have made and certainly not the last, but I am not here to start fights or arguments. I am here to learn, to hopefully help some new drummers and to have fun.

This is the best drum forum there is and I truly thought I was about to get banned for my comments. Thank you to the Admins for having patience with me.

This will not happen again.

Sorry!
No worries! Thanks for having the honesty and integrity to post!
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  #65  
Old 02-01-2014, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Bermuda...that's about as on topic as Dreyn gets.He's Sir Spam a Lot.:)
Guess he didn't expect Sir Ban-a-lot!!

Oh MAN I'm funny!

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Old 05-02-2014, 04:16 AM
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  #66  
Old 09-14-2014, 10:10 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Funny you should mention being ripped off.
I spent $750 USD on a full set of Imperial Cymbals, march 28th 2013. After having woto several rked with them before and loving the cymbals I ordered a fujurisdiction.... the months went by with no Cymbals. After Litterally 100's of emails bavk and forth between us, they refused to show me proof of them sending my order, claimed I must have already received them, as they didnt receive the order back in the mail... and refused to issue me any refund/replacement.

I submitted reports with the NSW Department of fair trading, who(due to it being and international matter) reffered me to the FTC, and the TX District attorney.
several complaints later on each, proved completely useless with absolutely NO reply from either organisation. I tried to talk with a few government funded Lawyers; who told me it was out of their jurystiction.... and I was stuck with nothing.

Finally in early 2014, they agreed to reship my order.

and of course, since then I've had no shipping confirmation, no reply, and no cymbals.

Jeff (owner) refuses to answer my emails, and their facebook page has been taken down.

so here I am, $1000 AUD out of pocket.... had to quit playing as I couldn't afford more cymbals....
with nothing to show for it.

**** you Imperial Cymbals.
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  #67  
Old 09-14-2014, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Funny you should mention being ripped off.
I spent $750 USD on a full set of Imperial Cymbals, march 28th 2013. After having woto several rked with them before and loving the cymbals I ordered a fujurisdiction.... the months went by with no Cymbals. After Litterally 100's of emails bavk and forth between us, they refused to show me proof of them sending my order, claimed I must have already received them, as they didnt receive the order back in the mail... and refused to issue me any refund/replacement.

I submitted reports with the NSW Department of fair trading, who(due to it being and international matter) reffered me to the FTC, and the TX District attorney.
several complaints later on each, proved completely useless with absolutely NO reply from either organisation. I tried to talk with a few government funded Lawyers; who told me it was out of their jurystiction.... and I was stuck with nothing.

Finally in early 2014, they agreed to reship my order.

and of course, since then I've had no shipping confirmation, no reply, and no cymbals.

Jeff (owner) refuses to answer my emails, and their facebook page has been taken down.

so here I am, $1000 AUD out of pocket.... had to quit playing as I couldn't afford more cymbals....
with nothing to show for it.

**** you Imperial Cymbals.
Absolutely heart breaking to hear this. I hope you find a way back to playing soon. If you weren't so far away, I'd happily lend you some of my cymbals to keep you going.

It seems these Imperial cymbal criminals are not just ripoff merchants, they're predatory, & need to be taken out. Disgraceful behaviour of the lowest order :(

Edit, I just looked them up a bit more. Twitter account hasn't been in use since February, & Youtube channel has no videos in it.
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Last edited by keep it simple; 09-14-2014 at 10:35 AM.
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  #68  
Old 09-14-2014, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Where are you baconator. In NSW? I have an over supply of cymbals. I would be happy to give you a set of zbts for free if you are able to pay postage. They are entry level but in as new condition. Alternatively I have some higher end cymbals like a paiste alpha ride and alcgemy hats we could do a deal on. Let me know if interested cheers w
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  #69  
Old 09-14-2014, 12:45 PM
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Where are you baconator. In NSW? I have an over supply of cymbals. I would be happy to give you a set of zbts for free if you are able to pay postage. They are entry level but in as new condition. Alternatively I have some higher end cymbals like a paiste alpha ride and alcgemy hats we could do a deal on. Let me know if interested cheers w
How's this for a complete opposite to Imperial's scurrilous greed driven scumbagness! Way to go Wombat - you're a good sort :)
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  #70  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:16 AM
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How's this for a complete opposite to Imperial's scurrilous greed driven scumbagness! Way to go Wombat - you're a good sort :)
Thank you for your kind words Andy :-)

I have been on the recieving end of peoples kindness in the past and I feel I should help others out when I can.

kind of a way thanking/honouring those who were there for me if you get my drift.

Might I say you are a person who passes on kindnesses yourself, such as expressing the desire to help out "baconator" yourself if he lived nearby, and also the times when you have fixed peoples drums ( such as re cutting bearing edges etc).... "so right back at ya" in the good sort department !!
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  #71  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:33 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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How's this for a complete opposite to Imperial's scurrilous greed driven scumbagness! Way to go Wombat - you're a good sort :)
Andy, you do know what we mean by a "good sort" in the Aussie vernacular don't you? : )
Then again Wombat has responded in kind- maybe its just a Queensland expression (or else Wombat actually regards you as an attractive female and vice versa)?
Grea/ Jules- help a brother out here?
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  #72  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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I have been on the recieving end of peoples kindness in the past and I feel I should help others out when I can.

kind of a way thanking/honouring those who were there for me if you get my drift.

Exactly, what goes around, comes around. I hope that applies to the nasty vermin at Imperial! (It's rare for me to be outright accusational without independently verified information, but I think the truth here is pretty clear to all :)

Quote:
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Andy, you do know what we mean by a "good sort" in the Aussie vernacular don't you? : )
Then again Wombat has responded in kind- maybe its just a Queensland expression (or else Wombat actually regards you as an attractive female and vice versa)?
Grea/ Jules- help a brother out here?
Whoops - I had no idea! :( Now where's my favourite skirt ;)
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  #73  
Old 09-15-2014, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Funny you should mention being ripped off.
I spent $750 USD on a full set of Imperial Cymbals, march 28th 2013. After having woto several rked with them before and loving the cymbals I ordered a fujurisdiction.... the months went by with no Cymbals. After Litterally 100's of emails bavk and forth between us, they refused to show me proof of them sending my order, claimed I must have already received them, as they didnt receive the order back in the mail... and refused to issue me any refund/replacement.

Quote:
I submitted reports with the NSW Department of fair trading, who(due to it being and international matter) reffered me to the FTC, and the TX District attorney.
several complaints later on each, proved completely useless with absolutely NO reply from either organisation. I tried to talk with a few government funded Lawyers; who told me it was out of their jurystiction.... and I was stuck with nothing.

Finally in early 2014, they agreed to reship my order.

and of course, since then I've had no shipping confirmation, no reply, and no cymbals.

Jeff (owner) refuses to answer my emails, and their facebook page has been taken down.

so here I am, $1000 AUD out of pocket.... had to quit playing as I couldn't afford more cymbals....
with nothing to show for it.

**** you Imperial Cymbals.


Bloody el!

Red flag anytime you see the name of a product/company with an allusion to royalty.
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  #74  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:03 PM
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wombat wombat is offline
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Andy, you do know what we mean by a "good sort" in the Aussie vernacular don't you? : )
Then again Wombat has responded in kind- maybe its just a Queensland expression (or else Wombat actually regards you as an attractive female and vice versa)?
Grea/ Jules- help a brother out here?
"good sort" has gone the way of "cripes" "crickey" "dinky di" etc....consigned to a time long past...that Queenslanders still live in !!

"Scrunt bunny" or simply shes pretty "scrunty" / "tasty" are more common nowadays..... so Andy no need to put your lippy on yet, unless you go to Queensland where men are men and sheep are nervous !!
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  #75  
Old 09-15-2014, 05:02 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Queensland where men are men and sheep are nervous !!
Haha, that's how we describe Texas. You won't find any virgin wool over there. :)

Re: Imperial Cymbals, that's a damn shame. I see this faux endorsement deals are losing their appeal. I noticed Metyl Cohen plays Meinl now instead of Soultone. I don't know how these cymbal companies expect to survive with these business practices, but it seems like a tough business considering the fact that Zildjian has almost half the market and all the rest are clamoring for that other 50 percent.
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  #76  
Old 09-16-2014, 07:59 AM
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toddmc toddmc is offline
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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"good sort" has gone the way of "cripes" "crickey" "dinky di" etc....consigned to a time long past...that Queenslanders still live in !!

"Scrunt bunny" or simply shes pretty "scrunty" / "tasty" are more common nowadays..... so Andy no need to put your lippy on yet, unless you go to Queensland where men are men and sheep are nervous !!
Scrunt bunny?? Scrunty?? You're making this stuff up right??
I remember the term "spunky" back in the 80's (and if you were really hot you were a "spunky monkey"!!).
I'll have you know we've had electricity for the past 10 years and just figured out this internet thing a few weeks ago (although daylight savings is still an unfathomable mystery to us)- so how dare you call us backward sir!!
As for the sheep comment, we'll leave that to the Kiwi's thank you very much! : )
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  #77  
Old 09-16-2014, 08:24 AM
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T.Underhill T.Underhill is offline
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

Holy crap, I just discovered the owner of this company and an acquaintance/FB friend of mine are close buds. After trolling his page I'm sure all of you will be happy to know that Jeff and his wife are opening a new coffee shop!

No mention of cymbals for months, most media has been taken down. Did some reading on the BBB and other forums and there's a common theme: unheard of business, misleading ads, unsolicited emails looking for sponsors, etc. Next time go with Sabian ;)

Last edited by T.Underhill; 09-16-2014 at 02:02 PM.
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  #78  
Old 09-16-2014, 09:42 AM
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xBaconator9000x xBaconator9000x is offline
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Where are you baconator. In NSW? I have an over supply of cymbals. I would be happy to give you a set of zbts for free if you are able to pay postage. They are entry level but in as new condition. Alternatively I have some higher end cymbals like a paiste alpha ride and alcgemy hats we could do a deal on. Let me know if interested cheers w
Your a legend mate \m/
Yeah I'm in Western Sydney. Your very generous! But it's okay mate, you can keep your cymbals. I don't really have the time to play anymore now anyway. I just play a bit on my electric kit nowadays. I'm sure ill regret this decision later tho when I get back into it haha.
But that was an awesome offer. Champion!

A quick update for Future reference guys!

I have it on good authority that Jeff is selling off the name for Imperial Cymbals, and (aside from his coffe shop endeavours) he will be starting up "Lake Cymbals" or "Laker Cymbals".

So be aware and warned!
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  #79  
Old 09-16-2014, 10:02 AM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Holy crap, I just discovered the owner of this company and an acquaintance/FB friend of mine are close buds. After trolling his page I'm sure all of you will be happy to know that Jeff and his wife are opening a new coffee shop!
Much harder to rip people off with a coffee shop. No, wait. Starbucks.

The man is a genius.
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: IMPERIAL CYMBALS RIPPED US OFF!!!

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Originally Posted by T.Underhill View Post
Holy crap, I just discovered the owner of this company and an acquaintance/FB friend of mine are close buds. After trolling his page I'm sure all of you will be happy to know that Jeff and his wife are opening a new coffee shop!
Any chance of a link to the rat's page?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xBaconator9000x View Post
A quick update for Future reference guys!

I have it on good authority that Jeff is selling off the name for Imperial Cymbals, and (aside from his coffe shop endeavours) he will be starting up "Lake Cymbals" or "Laker Cymbals".

So be aware and warned!
A very useful heads up there for sure. If those names surface, after verifying ownership, we'll sure post up a nice "promotional" feature & make sure it hit's top of the Google listings ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Much harder to rip people off with a coffee shop. No, wait. Starbucks.

The man is a genius.
You have a point with Starbucks. As for this Imperial fudge pushing hermaphrodite, I can think of terms to describe him other than genius :(
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