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  #41  
Old 04-20-2014, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

And yet as I mentioned earlier their parents must have permission slips for them to go.
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  #42  
Old 04-20-2014, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

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And of course Walmart is not out to make money and the money used for the museum
isn't a tax wrote off ..
Tax write off or not, they aren't making any money because of the museum. They are paying money for the public to access it for free. Furthermore, just because a Walton footed the bill for the museum to even be here does not mean that it is a Walmart museum. There is already one of those here, and it is about the history of the store. As I said earlier, you would have no idea that Walmart was in any way involved with the museum unless you live here. So kids aren't going to come home and be like "we need to go to Walmart". They come home and talk about the art, the nature trails, the giant coi pond, the statues, etc. It is in no way an advertising campaign.
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

TBH, if I were one of those parents, I would have read the riot act to that particular school board. I would have relentlessly shamed and embarrassed them and questioned their very morality and would have relished watching them try to double speak their way out while I shut down every available argument they could muster.

Now I want a hot dog with relish and mustard.
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  #44  
Old 04-20-2014, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

New Breed of Retail Field Trips Emerging

Borja, Rhea R.
Education Week, v24 n6 p1, 14 Oct 2004
Children from the 145-student Ets Chiyim School in Montgomery Village, Md., were not visiting Washington's National Zoo, a 35-minute drive away. Rather, they walked through the fluorescent-lit, merchandise-laden aisles of a local Petco, a San Diego, Calif.-based pet-store chain with 690 locations nationwide. Ets Chiyim is one of a growing number of public and private schools whose students have taken "retail" field trips to outlets such as Petco, Sports Authority, Winn-Dixie, and Saturn. Until recently, students could also take field trips to Toys R Us stores. The national toy seller, which has suffered major financial losses, withdrew funding for the trips this year. In this article, the author talks about the advantages and disadvantages of the new breed of retail field trips that is emerging. These field trips are tied to national education standards, are free to schools, and even help strengthen community bonds. However, critics counter that such field trips are nothing more than a savvy and aggressive marketing ploy disguised as education to get students and their families to buy the participating stores' products. The author discusses the actions taken by retailers to get schools to participate in retail field trips.

Descriptors: Private Schools, Field Trips, Manufacturing Industry, School Business Relationship, National Standards, School Community Programs, Marketing, Advertising, Career Awareness
Editorial Projects in Education. 6935 Arlington Road Suite 100, Bethesda, MD 20814-5233. Tel: 800-346-1834; Tel: 301-280-3100; e-mail: customercare@epe.org; Web site: http://www.edweek.org/info/about/
Publication Type: Journal Articles; Reports - Descriptive
Education Level: N/A
Audience: N/A
Language: English
Sponsor: N/A
Authoring Institution: N/A
Identifiers: N/A
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  #45  
Old 04-20-2014, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

I'm not pro or con either way on this issue, so please don't flame me. ;-) As I said in an earlier post, I still believe it is more about education than marketing. Yes they use Apple products and apps, but what do you expect? If they were teaching kids to play Angy Birds, that is wrong. if they are teaching the kids about using technologies available to them how to create video footage, create an original song in GarageBand, etc., I think that is a great opportunity for the kids as it give them an aspect into something they may want to do later on in life that they may not learn in grade school.

just an FYI:

http://www.apple.com/hk/en/retail/fieldtrip/

http://www.apple.com/hk/en/retail/camp/notify.html
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  #46  
Old 04-20-2014, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

the world is changing boys....better hang on,,,


A Chicago-based company, the Field Trip Factory, facilitates 20,000 school trips a year to retail stores, imploring educators “to start thinking differently and to ask our institutions and the business community to step up and help children learn fundamental skills through valuable experiences.” And what fundamental skills might those be? At PETCO, students can learn about “animal welfare and responsibility.” At H.E.B. supermarkets, they can discover how to “become passionate about incorporating health and wellness into their day-to-day lives.”

It’s worth noting that students aren’t the only ones rewarded by going to an amusement park or a shopping mall instead of spending the day in school. A key feature of these trips is that someone other than the teacher is primarily responsible for supervising students. Theme parks, for instance, often have a surrounding fence, with only one entrance and exit. Teachers need only to guard the exit; otherwise, they don’t have much to do. Teachers can also relax when retail staff lead student groups on tours and market their wares. The teachers generally view these unconventional field trips as a break from the daily grind of classroom instruction.
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  #47  
Old 04-20-2014, 10:16 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

Doesn't mean I have to like it. I know the world is going down a bad path. Morally speaking...what message is being sent to the children? Is this a healthy message? No, it's not a healthy message. They are not being taught to think, they are being advertised to. The school board sold those kids out. It doesn't matter how many times it happened, they were sold out.

Just doesn't sit well with what I expect from a school board. Sure school boards get offered stuff, but green lighting field trips to a store....offends my sense of responsibility to the child...like that's a legitimate destination for hungry minds....It's pathetic. It makes me ill that people are not more offended by something like this. We're talking impressionable kids. But it's clearly not about the kids, it's whoever pays the school. I'm not OK with that.
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  #48  
Old 04-21-2014, 01:43 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

The big problem here isn't the field trip.
Currently the USA consumes more than it produces.
The Federal Reserve prints billions of dollars each month to cover our debt from this trade imbalance. The dollar is being devalued
Soon the US dollar will not be the world standard currency.
An iPhone will then cost $2000 in the USA as inflation becomes out of control.
American children will become the $2 an hour labor force that produces the goods for the rest of the world.
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  #49  
Old 04-21-2014, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

This is interesting. I definitely thought Jim's post about how we're ok with corporate sponsorship to be very valid, and from the other side, Gruntersdad's posts are equally valid.

I think there's a fine balance with this type of "retail field-trip". With some of the ones Grunt mentioned, or indeed that article post, I genuinely do see educational value. Learning about animals? Sure. Learning about other day-to-day activities you normally wouldn't learn about in school? Fantastic.

After reading Apple's webpage (provided by NCC), it appears (to me anyways) that the Apple store field-trip appears to be pretty damn close to being pure marketing. I mean, what, the kids go there and "create" with Apple's products... I'm not knocking the style of field-trip, IF it actually has educational value. It may be a bit unorthodox, and sure, marketing is always in mind, but even so. This Apple one is questionable. And I do think parents should know better, but alas, that is a completely different can of worms.

FYI, I didn't know that "retail field-trips" were such a large thing until now.
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  #50  
Old 04-21-2014, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

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Originally Posted by Beam Me Up Scotty View Post
This is interesting. I definitely thought Jim's post about how we're ok with corporate sponsorship to be very valid, and from the other side, Gruntersdad's posts are equally valid.
Just to be clear for those who didn't read it, the thing is I'm not OK with corporate sponsorship even though some people are. My lament is that it has wormed its way into nearly everything.

This idea of "field trips" to stores is just another example of corporate power extending itself, in this case, into public education. Working in a state university system college, my view of late is that the corporatization of public education is ramping up. Corporations see public education (primary, secondary and college) as a rich vein to be tapped. In spite of public pronouncements, if you look at what they actually do and advocate (with money), they are not interested in education. At best, some of them are interested in training (primarily for their own labor force). Training is not education. At the other extreme, well I don't even want to go there because that's too depressing for a Monday morning.

The idea that the "tour guide" to one of these store "field trips" is a store employee is repellent. The store comes up with a "tour itinerary" and shapes the process in such a way as to appeal to an overworked teacher (who, unsurprisingly, is relieved to get a few hours break). Let's compare this to state and federal legislative houses where today many bills are written by lobbyists and presented in "ready to submit" form to our representatives. Gee, you wouldn't think that those lobbyists have anything other than the best interests of their state or the country at heart, do you?

Finally, let me just say that having been a teaching professor for over 30 years, the idea that kids are going to learn something substantive regarding technology usage in one of these field trips is naive at best. Learning how to use a tool with anything beyond minimal skill takes time. In contrast, you can instill or support a child's interest in a broad and deep field such as zoology or biology or fine art by taking them to a zoo or museum. That interest is what will carry them along. Visiting a store might get them interested in a product, a piece of technology. That, by it's very nature, is short-lived and it only serves the purpose of the seller.

But seriously, none of this surprises me. I don't like it, I don't agree with it and I don't roll over for it. But it doesn't surprise me. In fact, I have come to expect it. I see it as part of a large and inadvertent socio-economic-political experiment.
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  #51  
Old 04-21-2014, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

I would argue 2 points. Traning is not education. Do we not train on a machine or device to be educated on its use. One can split hairs to prove a point but I have had a lot of training in my life and feel much more educated for it.

train•ing (ˈtreɪ nɪŋ)

n.
1. the education, instruction, or discipline of a person or thing that is being trained.
2. the status or condition of a person who has been trained: athletes in top training.



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ed·u·ca·tion

/ˌɛdʒʊˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ej-oo-key-shuhn] Show IPA
noun 1. the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

2. the act or process of imparting or acquiring particular knowledge or skills, as for a profession.

3. a degree, level, or kind of schooling: a university education.

4. the result produced by instruction, training, or study: to show one's education.

5. the science or art of teaching; pedagogics.


And second, as was stated in the article above, some field trips are for reward, and for a break in the routine and not designed to be educational from the start. As for being better off having seen an art museum or zoo compared to a tecnological retail store would certainly depend on the person.
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  #52  
Old 04-21-2014, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

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Just to be clear for those who didn't read it, the thing is I'm not OK with corporate sponsorship even though some people are. My lament is that it has wormed its way into nearly everything.

This idea of "field trips" to stores is just another example of corporate power extending itself, in this case, into public education. Working in a state university system college, my view of late is that the corporatization of public education is ramping up. Corporations see public education (primary, secondary and college) as a rich vein to be tapped. In spite of public pronouncements, if you look at what they actually do and advocate (with money), they are not interested in education. At best, some of them are interested in training (primarily for their own labor force). Training is not education. At the other extreme, well I don't even want to go there because that's too depressing for a Monday morning.

The idea that the "tour guide" to one of these store "field trips" is a store employee is repellent. The store comes up with a "tour itinerary" and shapes the process in such a way as to appeal to an overworked teacher (who, unsurprisingly, is relieved to get a few hours break). Let's compare this to state and federal legislative houses where today many bills are written by lobbyists and presented in "ready to submit" form to our representatives. Gee, you wouldn't think that those lobbyists have anything other than the best interests of their state or the country at heart, do you?

Finally, let me just say that having been a teaching professor for over 30 years, the idea that kids are going to learn something substantive regarding technology usage in one of these field trips is naive at best. Learning how to use a tool with anything beyond minimal skill takes time. In contrast, you can instill or support a child's interest in a broad and deep field such as zoology or biology or fine art by taking them to a zoo or museum. That interest is what will carry them along. Visiting a store might get them interested in a product, a piece of technology. That, by it's very nature, is short-lived and it only serves the purpose of the seller.

But seriously, none of this surprises me. I don't like it, I don't agree with it and I don't roll over for it. But it doesn't surprise me. In fact, I have come to expect it. I see it as part of a large and inadvertent socio-economic-political experiment.
I agree 100%. Also, my apologies for not being clearer.
Thank you for your input, I think it's quite valuable, given your profession.

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And second, as was stated in the article above, some field trips are for reward, and for a break in the routine and not designed to be educational from the start. As for being better off having seen an art museum or zoo compared to a tecnological retail store would certainly depend on the person.
This is definitely true, it does indeed depend on the person. In this case, the kids told me they played on iPads the whole time, so I'm unimpressed. That's not to say haven't brought up some fair points I hadn't considered, but I think the fact of the matter that while this type of field trip can be useful if administered correctly, this one in particular fails in that regard.

As for a zoo or an art museum, sure, they may seem uneducational or arbitrary, but at least it would be taking kids to see something that they normally wouldn't be exposed to. Being musicians, I think we can all appreciate going to see art, and when it comes to a zoo, at least there is the learning about exotic animals.
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  #53  
Old 04-21-2014, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

As stubbord as I may have seemed on this I do see both sides of the debate. I will wait for your next report on your kids next field trip. Have fun
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  #54  
Old 04-21-2014, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

It is not uncommon for words to have very precise meanings within specific disciplines that do not necessarily align with common usage. This can lead to confusion. For example, to a scientist, the word theory has a very precise meaning compared to the common usage of the term. To a scientist, the common usage is usually closer to hunch or maybe hypothesis. Another example would be the word faith. To a scientist, faith refers to accepting an idea for which there is no support via empirical data.

When used in the field by educators, the terms training and education are not synonymous. Training tends to refer to something that is very job specific. Education is usually reserved for a larger, more encompassing notion. Some educators do use them interchangeably in casual speech but if you get into a deeper conversation about the topic you will generally find that a distinction is made. Few people would argue that, for example, reading Dickens or Hume isn't part of a good education but most would argue that it doesn't constitute training (and certainly not corporate sponsored training).
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

My only point was that training is part of education, not that they were synonymous.
If someone is training to play the drums, they are most certainly being educated. Someone who is training for the Olympics is being educated on fitness, spacial awareness, cardio fitness etc.
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  #56  
Old 04-22-2014, 12:38 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

Training vs. Education...

Most parents are happy for their children to receive sex education.

How many would be happy for their children to receive sex training?
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

After reading all the posts here, I wondered if some of the people on this forum would have been as opposed to this type of trip if it was the Zildjian factory instead of an Apple store?
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  #58  
Old 04-22-2014, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

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After reading all the posts here, I wondered if some of the people on this forum would have been as opposed to this type of trip if it was the Zildjian factory instead of an Apple store?
I don't think the point is getting across.

Two key words in your post here. One is "store" the other is "factory".

I'd have been a lot happier if this were a trip to the apple factory. There would be all kinds of things to learn about electronics, manufacturing, robotics, etc.

The same goes for zil. I'd support a trip to the factory to see the process, what I would not support is a trip to the zildjian retail outlet where a zil rep takes the kids and shows them products trying to get them excited about them and where the only real "learning" is learning the product line offered by the company.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

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...to make sure that kids get used to a locked into their BS overpriced PC hardware ...
No reason to worry...

...they wont be able to afford Apple Products when they get older.
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  #60  
Old 04-22-2014, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

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Training vs. Education...

Most parents are happy for their children to receive sex education.

How many would be happy for their children to receive sex training?

I am so stealing this! Beautiful!
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

Well if I was 15 and offered sex training, I'd have snapped it up without second thought...
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:29 AM
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I'd have been a lot happier if this were a trip to the apple factory. There would be all kinds of things to learn about electronics, manufacturing, robotics, etc.

The same goes for zil. I'd support a trip to the factory to see the process, what I would not support is a trip to the zildjian retail outlet where a zil rep takes the kids and shows them products trying to get them excited about them and where the only real "learning" is learning the product line offered by the company.
I agree wholeheartedly. Of course, a trip to the Apple factory might be a teensy bit on the expensive side, what with the trans-Pacific flights and all.

I remember going to a dairy farm when I was in grade school. It was interesting to see how the cows were milked and that whole process. I think it's good for people to know where their food comes from, how it's processed and how it gets to them. I don't think they were trying to get us to consume more dairy products. And something tells me that if they took us to a slaughter house instead there would've suddenly been a whole bunch of vegan kids at my grade school.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:30 AM
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Well if I was 15 and offered sex training, I'd have snapped it up without second thought...

I recall that in college we coined the term Sexercise.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

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Training vs. Education...

Most parents are happy for their children to receive sex education.

How many would be happy for their children to receive sex training?

Ha ha ha ! Most excellent point, but really a detour from the main thrust of this thread

Training to me is not really thinking, it's like programming a computer. OK granted you learn some things specific to whatever you are being trained on. The larger question is do we want generations of kids who are good at being trained, or do we want generations of kids who can actually think critically for themselves? I believe generally speaking most people can be trained very easily, it's not much of a challenge. That's aiming too low though. I'd rather have a child who can think critically and actually use their own minds, rather than regurgitate facts.

I still maintain those school boards are selling out the kid's educations to people who basically bribe the school with wares. That's so twisted, corrupted, irresponsible, short sighted, damaging, and in my mind, criminal. Money, not children, is the only thing that matters. This whole issue makes that fact crystal clear.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:34 AM
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I recall that in college we coined the term Sexercise.
I tried to get mine in before college.
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:36 AM
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I tried to get mine in before college.
Yeah sure, but for PE credit??
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:37 AM
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Yeah sure, but for PE credit??
That was the excuse I used to my parents. 'I've been out playing Rugby'.

How true is this? Only you can decide!
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Old 04-23-2014, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: Field Trip to the... Apple Store?

I see 'training' and 'education' being debated a lot in this thread. Again, I'm not advocating one way or another, and I would like to throw out another word, 'exposure'. By exposure, I mean seeing something that a young person may have not had an opportunity to see, like how to make a movie or create a song. Not all parents can afford to buy their kids expensive items like ipads, android, or laptops, nor are the schools equipped to giving kids that type of exposure. Yes I know it is part Apple's marketing that the kids see apple products. However, it has been reported that the average college student owns 7 tech devices so it is hard to blame the company - right or wrong. Also note the people line up at Apple stores to buy the latest iphone and ipads which to me sends a far more dangerous message to our young people.
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