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  #1  
Old 01-29-2014, 05:02 PM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

Hello -

I'm a newby when it comes to recording and playing live while miked. I'm hoping to invest in a reasonably priced mic setup to both record and play live. I'm very interested in the Glyn Johns method.

My questions are:

1. The two overheads should be large diaphragm condenser mics. Does anyone have suggestions for good, reasonably priced mics? Would this work:
http://www.amazon.com/AKG-Perception...pr_product_top

2. Would these large diaphragm condenser mics work on stage, or would they pick up too much stage noise?

3. Any suggestions for the kick mic and the snare mic? Would this be a good set (I realize it gives me a couple extra mics)?
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-DMK57-52...pr_product_top

4. Would this setup be good for both recording AND live performance in small to medium venues?

5. I have one of these (that I use for e-drums): http://www.amazon.com/Simmons-DA200S...mmons+drum+amp
Would this be good to use with the mic setup I'm contemplating for small to medium venues (with no FOH system)?

6. I would like to get a mixer that can support 6 (or possibly 8) inputs (in case I ultimately go to more of a closed mic situation). Any suggestions?

Thank you all for your suggestions and opinions. My band is moving to the next level and I want to plan accordingly....
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:03 PM
jornthedrummer jornthedrummer is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

1. For studio work with a medium budget, CAD179m(LDC) and Octava MC MK 012 have a good reputation. I own the CADs and have been happy with them as overhead and tom mics. Spend a little bit more and buy either of the above. With a 3 mic technique probably an LDC is the right choice to pick up the entire kit.

2. Usually not practical. LDCs are heavy and you need a heavy studio mike stand to have stability. For home use a normal stand can do the job, but its easily knocked over.

3. Good choice. Industry standard that you will never outgrow.

4. SDC is better for live in most cases. Check some concerts on youtube and notice that the OHs are usually small diameter.

5. No. For kick you need minimum 15" quality speakers. For small gigs, the snare, toms and certainly cymbal does not need to be amplified.


6. There is no point to buy a mixer just for the drums. If the drums needs amplification, then so does the vocals, keyboard, etc.
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:43 PM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

The Glyn Johns method works well in the studio but I'm not sure it would be the most effective situation live, for two reasons:

i) It can be quite perceptible to phase issues. If you're using Glyn Johns, you need to make sure that the distance between the snare and each mic is the same (or on a wavelength node - but let's not complicate the issue). Live, this can cause issues - particularly behind the kit. Sometimes, it's just not possible to put a mic behind the kit because of space issues. My preference for live would be a spaced (A/B) or X/Y pair. I would usually go with X/Y because if you buy a mounting bar, you can put both mics together in front of the kick and this saves on space. You will lose some of the stereo field but live this isn't an issue. Spaced is also popular and a perfectly good solution if you have enough stands.

ii) Having a mic facing forward may cause issues with monitoring, depending on whether you're using stage wedges. If the rear mic in a Glyn Johs is over your right side, it's common to put the wedge just left of the hi-hat. This would effectively put the monitor right in the pickup field of the microphone - potentially creating major feedback issues. With a conventional A/B or X/Y, the monitor would be more off-axis if the conventional monitor placement is adhered to. With in-ears, this is totally moot but in my experience, most venues would have a wedge to the left of the hi-hat. If the Glyn Johns rear mic is to your right, it's right next to the monitor, so even if it is off-axis, it'll still create feedback issues.

For those reasons, I wouldn't usually go with that method for live use. Although I'm sure it's possible.

I've used the AKG Perception mics extensively for recording. If that model has switchable polar patterns, I would be going with cardioid. LDCs can be used on stage but it's important to have sturdy stands, or to make sure the boom arms aren't at full extension. An LDC will typically pick up more of the toms than an SDC but I would engaging the low-cut filter immediately to make sure you're not picking up stage rumble. Usually, I would be going for a pair of SDCs for live overheads. For around half the price of the AKG Perceptions, a pair of Rode NT5s would be a solid live choice.

The Shure kit is more than acceptable. It's very decent. The D112 and SM57 are staples of any decent sound engineer's toolbox and will put up with the rigours of a hard life on the road.

If you want to record with a four-mic method to a reasonable degree, a pair of NT5s and those Shure mics would be fine. They're not high-end but if you get your placement and mixing right, you can get decent results. If you want a step up in quality, I'd be looking at AKG C214s or (definitely) C414s but they are quite a bit more expensive. The overheads are the most important mics in most recording sessions and the way I've recorded before relies about 80% on the overheads and bass drum, with the rest as 'flavour'. I've usually run a four/five-mic setup for basic recording but depending on what you want, those extra Shure mics could come in handy for individual tom micing. Usually I'd run two mics on the snare (up and under), two overheads and a bass drum but if you're recording something with a very modern sound, you'd want a mic on each tom as well. It depends on what you're after and how much post-processing you're doing.

I'd echo Jorn on the next point. On a small gig, you'd want a small PA rather than a single monitor. You could do it with just the monitor but I'd only be running the bass drum and (if mic'd, toms) through it anyway - the rest of the kit cuts through effectively enough.

This article: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun1...pa-systems.htm explains small PA systems better than I could.

If you're running a closed mic system, you'd want to at least be able to put the vocalist through as well and I'd argue that for balance, you'd want to put everything through it. I would be looking at something like this:

1. Left Overhead
2. Right Overhead
3. Snare
5. Kick
6. Snare Underside (potentially).
7. Bass DI
8. Bass Amplifier
9. Guitar Amplifier (unusual to DI a guitar unless it's an acoustic).
10. Guitar Amplifier (assuming you have two guitarists).
11. Keyboard
12. Vocalist
14. Reverb Channel Return (you can do this a lot of different ways but it's the way I prefer to do it).
15. Compression Channel Return (likewise - you can do this without using a channel).

Then you'd want:

Aux 1. Vocalist Monitor
Aux 2. Drum Monitor
Aux 3. Guitar Monitor
Aux 4. Keyboards Monitor (if you have them).
Aux 5. Reverb Buss Send (i.e. send channel Vocals to Aux 5, output effected signal from channel 14 into main mix).
Aux 6. Compression Buss Send.

This is a 'worst-case' scenario. At least 15 channels for the whole band and at least 6 Aux sends. There are other ways of doing it with fewer channels. For obvious reasons, I'd be looking at a 16 or 24-channel mixer. You could lose the bass DI, you might not have keyboards or a snare underside. The reverb and compression could be built into the desk with their own dedicated effects sends going directly to the main mix. Then you're talking about a 16-channel desk with 4 aux channels.

With all that, I'd start by looking here at these desks:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/allenheath_pa20.htm (a very serious choice).
http://www.thomann.de/gb/mackie_1604_vlz4.htm (solid choice).
http://www.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_mg_206c_usb.htm (built-in compressor, a decent choice).

Of those, I've used the Yamaha and the Mackie. Allen&Heath are decent.
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Old 01-31-2014, 04:38 PM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
The Glyn Johns method works well in the studio but I'm not sure it would be the most effective situation live, for two reasons:

i) It can be quite perceptible to phase issues. If you're using Glyn Johns, you need to make sure that the distance between the snare and each mic is the same (or on a wavelength node - but let's not complicate the issue). Live, this can cause issues - particularly behind the kit. Sometimes, it's just not possible to put a mic behind the kit because of space issues. My preference for live would be a spaced (A/B) or X/Y pair. I would usually go with X/Y because if you buy a mounting bar, you can put both mics together in front of the kick and this saves on space. You will lose some of the stereo field but live this isn't an issue. Spaced is also popular and a perfectly good solution if you have enough stands.

ii) Having a mic facing forward may cause issues with monitoring, depending on whether you're using stage wedges. If the rear mic in a Glyn Johs is over your right side, it's common to put the wedge just left of the hi-hat. This would effectively put the monitor right in the pickup field of the microphone - potentially creating major feedback issues. With a conventional A/B or X/Y, the monitor would be more off-axis if the conventional monitor placement is adhered to. With in-ears, this is totally moot but in my experience, most venues would have a wedge to the left of the hi-hat. If the Glyn Johns rear mic is to your right, it's right next to the monitor, so even if it is off-axis, it'll still create feedback issues.

For those reasons, I wouldn't usually go with that method for live use. Although I'm sure it's possible.

I've used the AKG Perception mics extensively for recording. If that model has switchable polar patterns, I would be going with cardioid. LDCs can be used on stage but it's important to have sturdy stands, or to make sure the boom arms aren't at full extension. An LDC will typically pick up more of the toms than an SDC but I would engaging the low-cut filter immediately to make sure you're not picking up stage rumble. Usually, I would be going for a pair of SDCs for live overheads. For around half the price of the AKG Perceptions, a pair of Rode NT5s would be a solid live choice.

The Shure kit is more than acceptable. It's very decent. The D112 and SM57 are staples of any decent sound engineer's toolbox and will put up with the rigours of a hard life on the road.

If you want to record with a four-mic method to a reasonable degree, a pair of NT5s and those Shure mics would be fine. They're not high-end but if you get your placement and mixing right, you can get decent results. If you want a step up in quality, I'd be looking at AKG C214s or (definitely) C414s but they are quite a bit more expensive. The overheads are the most important mics in most recording sessions and the way I've recorded before relies about 80% on the overheads and bass drum, with the rest as 'flavour'. I've usually run a four/five-mic setup for basic recording but depending on what you want, those extra Shure mics could come in handy for individual tom micing. Usually I'd run two mics on the snare (up and under), two overheads and a bass drum but if you're recording something with a very modern sound, you'd want a mic on each tom as well. It depends on what you're after and how much post-processing you're doing.
Are you saying rather than two overhead LDC's, you would do X/Y pair with SDC's?

Would these be the AKG and Rode mics you are talking about?

http://www.amazon.com/AKG-PERCEPTION...perception+sdc

http://www.amazon.com/Rode-NT5-MP-Co...ords=Rode+NT5s

I guess, since I'd prefer to use the same overhead mics for recording and performing live (and perhaps get additional mics down the road), would you suggest going with the Rode NT5s and putting them over head for "Glyn Johns" recording and then in front of the kick as an X/Y pair when playing live?

Thanks!!
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Old 01-31-2014, 04:54 PM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

X/Y is valid with any condenser microphones for overheads (or ribbons, but I wouldn't use those live!). A/B is equally valid - it's just a personal preference. Try both and see what happens! With A/B, you just have to make sure that you're placing the mics equidistant from the snare drum or you may end up with phase issues, that's what X/Y was partially designed to eliminate - but you lose the stereo width with X/Y. It's a tradeoff. X/Y is a form of overhead micing, just as Glyn Johns is.

NT5s will work with any method you want to use that require cardioid mics, ORTF,X/Y, A/B, Glyn Johns, etc. All of them are valid for different applications. I only recommended X/Y specifically because of my experience of it and the relative ease of setting it up on a stage. The most popular method for overhead micing is A/B (spaced) for a variety of reasons - both have pro and cons. Try both! See what works! Live I would stick to either X/Y or A/B because they're quick and easy to set up and won't have issues with monitors but again, it's really up to you! In a studio, if you have time you do what you like. Glyn Johns can produce excellent results.

I suggested the NT5s because they're relatively inexpensive SDC mics that can be used in a variety of contexts. They're rugged and reliable, won't topple stands with their weight and can be bought just about anywhere. The AKG Perception mics were the ones that you linked up in the original post and those are the ones that I have extensive experience with. I would prefer to use SDCs live because of the weight issue, that's the only major factor as far as I'm concerned.

Both of those models will produce acceptable results in a studio and good results live. I wouldn't want to get anything more expensive for dual-use because live microphones can take a punishing. Most of the skill in recording is effective placement of the mics and working well within the room you've got. It doesn't matter if you have inexpensive or expensive mics if your placement is off - it'll still sound unacceptable. If you consistently get good results with the 'cheaper' mics, then it's reasonable to upgrade.
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:03 PM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
X/Y is valid with any condenser microphones for overheads (or ribbons, but I wouldn't use those live!). A/B is equally valid - it's just a personal preference. Try both and see what happens! With A/B, you just have to make sure that you're placing the mics equidistant from the snare drum or you may end up with phase issues, that's what X/Y was partially designed to eliminate - but you lose the stereo width with X/Y. It's a tradeoff. X/Y is a form of overhead micing, just as Glyn Johns is.

NT5s will work with any method you want to use that require cardioid mics, ORTF,X/Y, A/B, Glyn Johns, etc. All of them are valid for different applications. I only recommended X/Y specifically because of my experience of it and the relative ease of setting it up on a stage. The most popular method for overhead micing is A/B (spaced) for a variety of reasons - both have pro and cons. Try both! See what works! Live I would stick to either X/Y or A/B because they're quick and easy to set up and won't have issues with monitors but again, it's really up to you! In a studio, if you have time you do what you like. Glyn Johns can produce excellent results.

I suggested the NT5s because they're relatively inexpensive SDC mics that can be used in a variety of contexts. They're rugged and reliable, won't topple stands with their weight and can be bought just about anywhere. The AKG Perception mics were the ones that you linked up in the original post and those are the ones that I have extensive experience with. I would prefer to use SDCs live because of the weight issue, that's the only major factor as far as I'm concerned.

Both of those models will produce acceptable results in a studio and good results live. I wouldn't want to get anything more expensive for dual-use because live microphones can take a punishing. Most of the skill in recording is effective placement of the mics and working well within the room you've got. It doesn't matter if you have inexpensive or expensive mics if your placement is off - it'll still sound unacceptable. If you consistently get good results with the 'cheaper' mics, then it's reasonable to upgrade.
Thanks for the great information! Really helpful.

I realize there are many variables, but can you give me a sense of placement (how high, angled in what direction, etc.) you would place the SDC's in an X/Y or A/B configuration for recording or performance?
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:08 PM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

Here's a good primer:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb0...drummiking.asp

Look around the 'SoundOnSound' website for some of their tutorials. They're excellent. I've been reading the magazine for years and they've always been accessible and accurate. You might not always agree with everything but it's fun to experiment! The article I linked is based around studio recording but the principles are more-or-less the same for live.
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:23 PM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Here's a good primer:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb0...drummiking.asp

Look around the 'SoundOnSound' website for some of their tutorials. They're excellent. I've been reading the magazine for years and they've always been accessible and accurate. You might not always agree with everything but it's fun to experiment! The article I linked is based around studio recording but the principles are more-or-less the same for live.
Thanks again...I'll check it out.
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:53 PM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

Does anyone know if these mics require phantom power?

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-DMK57-52...pr_product_top

http://www.amazon.com/AKG-PERCEPTION...perception+sdc

I have a small board I would like to put them through that has no power and I can't figure out if it will work....
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:21 PM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

The Shures won't, the AKGs will.
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:33 PM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

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The Shures won't, the AKGs will.
Is there an inexpensive fix to use the AKGs without getting a new board?
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

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Is there an inexpensive fix to use the AKGs without getting a new board?
Not really. The only solution would be to buy condenser mics that can be battery-powered like AKG C1000s.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:39 AM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Re: Recording & Live Performance - Glyn Johns Method

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Not really. The only solution would be to buy condenser mics that can be battery-powered like AKG C1000s.
Hmmm. How about a powered board with 6 or 8 channels?
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