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  #1  
Old 01-14-2014, 06:47 PM
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BillRayDrums BillRayDrums is offline
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Default Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Was in Guitar Center a couple of months back looking for a couple of RIMS mounts for my floor toms (good luck finding those in stock at GC...) and all they had to offer was the Atlas mounts. So I said "OK, I'll try 'em out". On the floors, absolutely fantastic!

Went back a few weeks later to grab a couple more for my two rack toms. Wrong answer! The drums are not heavy enough to put downward weight on them so they sound choked and no better had I put a regular tom mount into the drum.

So...Atlas mounts for the floors are a great idea. For the mounted toms, save your $. Unless I put them on wrong, and I doubt that I did.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:37 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillRayDrums View Post
Was in Guitar Center a couple of months back looking for a couple of RIMS mounts for my floor toms (good luck finding those in stock at GC...) and all they had to offer was the Atlas mounts. So I said "OK, I'll try 'em out". On the floors, absolutely fantastic!

Went back a few weeks later to grab a couple more for my two rack toms. Wrong answer! The drums are not heavy enough to put downward weight on them so they sound choked and no better had I put a regular tom mount into the drum.

So...Atlas mounts for the floors are a great idea. For the mounted toms, save your $. Unless I put them on wrong, and I doubt that I did.
Dunno, man. I have one on my 13" Ludwig Standard tom and I had the exact opposite experience. With the shell mount bracket it was like "tummm". Once I installed the Atlas, is was more like "tummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" [ten seconds later] "..mmmmmmmmmmmm..."

I'm a believer.
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Old 01-15-2014, 06:45 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I put them on a 10" and 12"...killed them! Went back to RIMS mounts.
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:37 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

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Originally Posted by alparrott View Post
Dunno, man. I have one on my 13" Ludwig Standard tom and I had the exact opposite experience. With the shell mount bracket it was like "tummm". Once I installed the Atlas, is was more like "tummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" [ten seconds later] "..mmmmmmmmmmmm..."

I'm a believer.
I'll never understand why people want their drums to have that much sustain. I get that it's all preference and such, but from my experience all sustain does is muddy up the sound or get lost in the mix. Anyone care to enlighten me? (No disrespect meant towards you Alparrott)

Back on topic though, I ordered one from my local long and macquade with the intention to put it on my bass drum and mount my ride cymbal on it! I guess we'll see if it increases cymbal sustain. ;)

-Jonathan
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

It's better to be in control of the sustain than to not be. That's just my personal preference. I like my toms to sing.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

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Originally Posted by Pass.of.E.r.a. View Post
I'll never understand why people want their drums to have that much sustain. I get that it's all preference and such, but from my experience all sustain does is muddy up the sound or get lost in the mix. Anyone care to enlighten me? (No disrespect meant towards you Alparrott)

Back on topic though, I ordered one from my local long and macquade with the intention to put it on my bass drum and mount my ride cymbal on it! I guess we'll see if it increases cymbal sustain. ;)

-Jonathan
Because it's easier to tame a drum than try to wake a dead one up, in my opinion.

I'm not currently playing many miked gigs, but when I do have to mike these things up, I've got a lot to work with to get a full sound rather than worrying if I can make a "thud" into a "thuuud".
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I like the ATLAS mounts, and like many, I have definite opinions and a preferred purpose for them. From a sound point of view, I can't honestly say they're better than another isolation system, but they certainly don't choke my rack toms, which is where I use them.

It's the design of the mount is what I like, and dislike.

On a rack tom, replacing a RIMS-type mount, the ATLAS mount sticks out a little less, weighs a LOT less, and lets the drum's finish be seen. There's basically no extra metal to cover up the shell, and it's really evident on 12" and smaller toms. The result is a much sleeker look.

But for floor toms and kicks, the mounts stick out quite a bit more than whatever they replaced. Despite all the other cool applications - floor tom isolation, rack tom mount isolation, ride/cowbell/accessory isolation, kick spur isolation, mic mount isolation - the mount is bulky, and requires new bags/cases if being transported.

Just my opinion of course. I think they hit a home run with the rack tom mounting, but some of the other things are kind of a stretch in real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillRayDrums View Post
It's better to be in control of the sustain than to not be. That's just my personal preference. I like my toms to sing.
Exactly. In addition, sustain, even in small amounts, adds a crucial psychoacoustic element to the overall drum (and band) sound. It's like snare buzz. Annoying perhaps on a conceptual level, but a drum kit just doesn't sound the same - or as good - without it.

These aspects of drum sounds are just there, we may not really think about them much, but would absolutely notice if they weren't there.

As for a tom ringing so long that it's problematic, I've only had that happen with a particular floor tom that would simply not shut up! No matter how much stuff I laid on the top, and how much tape I put on the reso, it just sang!

Bermuda
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I like them though I have not used them or seen them in person yet. I wish they were available during my Ludwig rebuild, I would have gotten them for all of my mounted toms instead of re-punching holes in my wrap for the regular Ludwig casings.
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  #9  
Old 01-15-2014, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass.of.E.r.a. View Post
I'll never understand why people want their drums to have that much sustain. I get that it's all preference and such, but from my experience all sustain does is muddy up the sound or get lost in the mix. Anyone care to enlighten me? (No disrespect meant towards you Alparrott)
-Jonathan
Most players use head sustain as an indication of resonance. Many confuse the two & regard them as the same thing. Of course, they're two different things, yet related. It's perfectly possible to have a highly resonant drum with close to zero head sustain. Head sustain is more a product of head choice, tuning, bearing edge sharpness, & hoop mass. Shell resonance is more a product of shell construction, hardware mass, & timber species. They're related because a drum's voice is a combination of all elements working as a single entity.

Sure, you'll kill head sustain if you have a resonance sink on the shell, but you'll kill the much more important shell resonance too. Isolation mounting becomes more important the more resonant the shell is. The shell being able to be readily excited is what delivers tone, & that's where choking the shell really shows in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post

As for a tom ringing so long that it's problematic, I've only had that happen with a particular floor tom that would simply not shut up! No matter how much stuff I laid on the top, and how much tape I put on the reso, it just sang!

Bermuda
Bearing edges & reso head tension :)
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:00 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I guess for me, getting my drums to resonate has never been an issue. With the level of skill that goes into crafting drumsets these days, it seems quite rare that you'd find a drum that doesn't "sing/growl/insert-any-other-marketing-adjective-here" provided the bearing edges and shells aren't horribly out of round. So at this point in time, I just don't see why companies are still boasting about all the new proprietary hardware that goes into giving the drum even more resonance. It just seems unnecessary. That being said, I love my ATLAS mount that arrived in the mail the other day, and while I'm using it to mount a cymbal off the bass drum instead of mounting a drum, it's a well-designed piece of gear!

And yes, I fully understand taming a lively drum as opposed to the opposite, however why you would need a drum with sustain over a second or two is beyond me. It just seems like overkill at that point...


Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Most players use head sustain as an indication of resonance. Many confuse the two & regard them as the same thing. Of course, they're two different things, yet related. It's perfectly possible to have a highly resonant drum with close to zero head sustain. Head sustain is more a product of head choice, tuning, bearing edge sharpness, & hoop mass. Shell resonance is more a product of shell construction, hardware mass, & timber species. They're related because a drum's voice is a combination of all elements working as a single entity.

Sure, you'll kill head sustain if you have a resonance sink on the shell, but you'll kill the much more important shell resonance too. Isolation mounting becomes more important the more resonant the shell is. The shell being able to be readily excited is what delivers tone, & that's where choking the shell really shows in the real world.

Bearing edges & reso head tension :)
I don't quite follow, yet I'm very intrigued! How would a drum resonate with the head having close to zero sustain? Isn't the head sustain nuanced by the shell, but not independant?

-Jonathan
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  #11  
Old 01-17-2014, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

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Originally Posted by Pass.of.E.r.a. View Post
I don't quite follow, yet I'm very intrigued! How would a drum resonate with the head having close to zero sustain? Isn't the head sustain nuanced by the shell, but not independant?

-Jonathan
I know what Andy's talking about as I experienced this effect transitioning between my Tama Superstars (double-45 edge) and my Daville Drumworks stave kit (especially on the bass drum with its full-round batter edge). Basically, the additional contact area of the bearing edge muffles the head's resonance, but also allows greater transference of energy through the shell. With my Superstars, a Powerstroke 3 had to be muffled or become a total bear. With my newer kit, a Powerstroke 3 actually has too much muffling- right now I'm running a Coated Ambassador batter and Fiberskyn Ambassador reso (with port) with no muffling, and you wouldn't believe the kind of metal kick sound I can get from it.
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  #12  
Old 01-17-2014, 09:19 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass.of.E.r.a. View Post
I don't quite follow, yet I'm very intrigued! How would a drum resonate with the head having close to zero sustain? Isn't the head sustain nuanced by the shell, but not independant?

-Jonathan
Good question Jonathan,

yes, head sustain is/can be nuanced/assisted by shell resonance, but not necessarily so. For example (extreme), I could make a shell out of 2" thick concrete & still get the heads to sustain with a combination of accurate tuning & sharp bearing edges. The biggest contribution a shell makes, other than providing an enclosed vessel, is how it affects the air column, & in turn, what the heads do. A highly resonant shell changes the tone of the drum (not a "better" statement). I'm referring primarily to the first second or so of the drum's sound. This is the period of time over which the shell is meaningfully excited. It vibrates, disturbing the air column & feeding those vibrations into the mix. That in turn is transmitted as sound by the heads.

Shell resonance (or a lack of it) is what delivers tone into the drum's resolved sound. It's the very voice of the drum, the sound you mostly hear. Head sustain after the initial note (decay) is mostly lost outside of a close mic'ing application, & is usually lost in all but the lowest dynamic music mix. Without a resonant shell, the sound is very one dimensional. That shell resonance adds a range of overtones that cumulatively, add a chorus of tones to the sound. All this happens in that vital first second or so. After that, it's all decay of the head vibrations/oscillations. Additionally, a shell's ability to be easily excited (really, the definition of a highly resonant shell) very much dictates how much tone the drum delivers at low dynamic. Played gently, a drum who's shell offers little resonant response produces a flat sound. A highly resonant drum opens up much more readily to produce a more full (& hence usually more satisfying) tone when played gently.

So, the more the shell resonates, the more tone augmentation takes place. Shell resonance detracts from sharpness of attack, so a balance is desirable. Also, managing that shell resonance is primarily a function of shell construction. A resonating shell can deliver unwanted (usually higher) overtones just as easily as the overtones you want to fatten out the sound, so it's not automatically good news.

All the above is where the real benefits of drum isolation lies. Not as a mechanism to prolong head decay, but as a means to assist in allowing the drum to deliver it's maximum voice potential at all dynamic levels.

I hope I'm making some sense :)

BTW Jonathan, been a while since we heard some of your superb playing!
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  #13  
Old 01-17-2014, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I have used the Atlas mounts for the mounting of 4 rack toms on 3 different kits. The toms are 12 and 13 inches in diameter.
LOVE THEM!

I have the Atlas Arch rail mount on one of my 22" bass drums.
LOVE IT!

I don't see the need to use them on floor toms so I don't.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I'll never understand why people want their drums to have that much sustain. I get that it's all preference and such, but from my experience all sustain does is muddy up the sound or get lost in the mix. Anyone care to enlighten me?


Sustain is good for the economy. Creates an aftermarket of dampening devices that can be sold/taxed. Sustain the cour$e.




...for floor toms and kicks, the mounts stick out quite a bit more than whatever they replaced. Despite all the other cool applications - floor tom isolation, rack tom mount isolation, ride/cowbell/accessory isolation, kick spur isolation, mic mount isolation - the mount is bulky, and requires new bags/cases if being transported.


Mmmmm, maybe do what YAMAHA did, move it (the profile) to the side.
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Old 04-13-2014, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillRayDrums View Post
I put them on a 10" and 12"...killed them! Went back to RIMS mounts.
Try moving them up and down on the tom arm. I found that if my 10" was towards the top of the arm it choked it out a bit but once I moved it about 1/2 ways down it sang.
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  #16  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I'm looking at these for my Tama Starclassics... I was pretty close to dumping the Starcast mounts and drilling my shells when I saw this thread. As Bermuda said-they really allow the drum to be "seen" and lighten the load. Unless my lug hole spacing is less than 25mm, I think they'd be great.

Curious what's the largest rack tom you guys think they will support? I'm thinking my 8-10-12 will be fine. Not so sure about the 14 X12?

Thanks...
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  #17  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

8-14 would be fine for sure. I use them on a 10 & 12. LOVE LOVE LOVE em. No RIMS wiggle. Sturdy hold(finally no sagging on the L arm). Great tone. Such a huge win for my kit (mine was a first year Keystone with the bands).

Get them and don't look back. Pretty soon you'll have them all over the kit!! Just verify your hole spacing first.

As for positioning on the L arm, generally the higher you go, the better resonance you will have. Low on the arm will choke a bit more. I have mine fairly high and they sing.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Thanks Blisco.

Yea, I'm thinking if I loose the Starcast Mounts and the die-cast rims I'll probably drop at least a pound from each shell.

Not sure if I'd prefer mounting regular floor tom legs on the 14 or hang it. But the smaller toms definately looking to Atlas mount them.

Interesting that we are seeing something similar to the 60's when drummers would outfit their Ludwig (and other make) drums with Rogers Swivo-matic hardware because it held up so much better. Kinda cool having an "old school" drum company-Ludwig-offering a great hardware inovation that can be adapted to other kits...
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Old 04-16-2014, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Are they available in black yet?
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Old 04-17-2014, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Thanks Blisco.

Yea, I'm thinking if I loose the Starcast Mounts and the die-cast rims I'll probably drop at least a pound from each shell.

Not sure if I'd prefer mounting regular floor tom legs on the 14 or hang it. But the smaller toms definately looking to Atlas mount them.

Interesting that we are seeing something similar to the 60's when drummers would outfit their Ludwig (and other make) drums with Rogers Swivo-matic hardware because it held up so much better. Kinda cool having an "old school" drum company-Ludwig-offering a great hardware inovation that can be adapted to other kits...
Wait till you start doing this


Here's my toms. The most perfect solution to suspension mounts ever IMHO
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Old 04-17-2014, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig ATLAS Mounts

I replaced my Vibra-bands and my 10" and 12" toms look and sound great.

I bought the three pack and put one on my floor tom, and I run my ride cymbal from a scissor lift.

Nice system. I'm glad to see Ludwig back in the hunt with top flight hardware>

I also have the Atlas Classic flat stands for snare, Hat, and straight cymbal stands- Love 'em!!
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