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  #441  
Old 11-01-2012, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

heel/toe, or moeller technique is the best. transformed my playing - foot and hand technique. makes playing sooooo easy too.

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  #442  
Old 11-01-2012, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I feel like heel toe should have a different name. When I first learned it, I literally tried playing with the back of my heel to the tips of my toes, and footboards generally aren't long enough for this. Once I figured it out, it's absolutely nothing like its name.

You're right, what you learned is 'not' like its name- Heel/Toe. There's the confusion.

Heel/toe is just as the name implies, the heel makes the first strike, the toe follows, its a walking motion. So yes you're limited to foot size fitting the pedal board.

There's a lot of confusion from people describing/showing a double stroke that uses the toe/ball of the foot to depress the foot board accentuated by dropping the heel.

There is a stroke that exists in which the heel of the foot contacts the pedal board first sending the beater into the head, followed by a strike on the foot board from the toe creating the second hit of a double, this stroke has a name, it is called heel/toe. Few people can do this stroke w/any proficiency, its very difficult to learn.

If you have your foot hanging off of the foot board and you do a quick double stroke with your toe planted by dropping your heel, that is another type of stroke that exists and its being improperly referred to as heel/toe.

When someone says bass/snare, its not FT/snare, the FT imitating the bass drum stroke.


Pete Riley demonstrates a simple slide technique to pull off a double, its not heel/toe. He doesn't use the words "Heel/toe", he's not claiming its heel/toe, b/c its not. A lot of people confuse this stroke with heel/toe. This stroke has limitations due to the fact in it there's a place in it where you lose contact with the foot board while having to change direction at the same time, this creates a demand for balance. Pete uses his right foot to balance, and maintain his stability.



Jarred Faulk (@2:52) describes it correctly, and (@ 3:00) 'illustrates' it correctly, but then @ 3:11 he tells you what he's really doing ("... a toe/toe stroke).

Faulk is causing confusion here. He uses the term 'Heel/toe' to create an interest, then shows a an advanced toe slide technique where little to no slide is used.

3:22- He admits right here "The first heel hit won't actually create any stroke." Right, its then not 'heel/toe' b/c heel/toe means the first heel contact creates the first impact of the double.

3:32 He shows both strokes are made by the toe. So why the hell he calls this Heel/toe is beyond me. It creates nothing but confusion.

4:56 This is not heel/toe, there's no reason to strike the dead portion (behind the hinge) of the foot board with your heel to make this stroke happen. Kinda senseless, but he describes it with meaning. He's right "That's actually ridiculous."

5:46 there's your stroke, not heel/toe, both contacts are made with the ball (toe) of the foot.


As I said b/f, there's no copyright on the name, so people can call whatever they're doing heel/toe, tho in reality there is a stroke which employs the first stroke on the board from the heel causing the first hit of a double.

This is Jarred Faulk's version of a heel/toe stroke, that's what he (and others) should be saying. In reality its a heel actuated double stroke, not a heel/toe stroke proper.
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  #443  
Old 11-09-2012, 11:51 AM
feldiefeld feldiefeld is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

The technique I use is more of a "front/back"....kind of like what Weckl described in his video from the '80's, "Back to Basics." It is not "heel/toe".....I think of it as "front of the ball of your foot/back of the ball of your foot." When this technique is played fast, it LOOKS like a slide, so some might call this technique the slide....but I don't think of that way....what looks like a slide is really just the result of the "front/back" motion.

If anyone has interest in checking it out further, I wrote an article about it at:

http://bit.ly/HqfeCQ

This technique has worked for me for over 30 years. I can promise you it works like a charm once you master it.
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  #444  
Old 11-20-2012, 01:45 PM
TreeClimbingFeet TreeClimbingFeet is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

1) So people like 'Morgan' from Henker, and Guido Wyss on double beater pedals like the giant-step and dualist pedals are using heel-toe method (Waterson type method, not Faulke)? They're going so fast I can't really tell exactly what they are doing, eg RHRTLHLT (doubles)or RHLHRTLT (chasing).

HENKER http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcAuXrThJXk
GUIDO WYSS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvQArNyJMsY



2) TIM WATERSON http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM - at the end of this video I found it hard to differentiate between what he is doing and Jojo`'s technique. Can anyone explain the difference for me?
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  #445  
Old 11-20-2012, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

As for that Henker drummer and Guido Wyss... Nobody can do around 300 bpm 16th notes with single strokes - at least not the regular version although there's a few drummers who can do 300 w/ swivel - which are singles, too but some don't consider them 'real' singles.

Honestly I still haven't fully grasped how quad pedals work but look at that Henker drummer's foot speed - it looks like 'normal' but produces more notes. You can absolutely forget that anybody could hit those speeds 'for real' if not using quad pedals or some technological thingy other than standard pedals. So you're doing very well if you're hitting 16th notes in the 200-250 bpm range.

As for Tim: In that example he's using constant release but (for demo purposes) brings his heel down all the way. Now if you keep the heel off the pedal this would be Tim's "pump(ing)" motion as explained on his DVD (highly recommended!). For 'real' heel toe you'd typically lift your toe after the toe stroke while with constant release the toe will stay on the pedalboard all the time. Personally I prefer constant release but do bring down my heels all the way down like in Tim's example, especially at higher speed, for more power. Of course Tim can do a lot more - in fact pretty much anything one could think of with feet. Check out his DVD, there's some unbelievable stuff there. He can hit around 360 bpm with double strokes, for a full minute!

PS: It's *Jared Falk* - pretty simple spelling actually.
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  #446  
Old 11-21-2012, 10:46 PM
TreeClimbingFeet TreeClimbingFeet is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Anyone tried the Vruk pedal extender?

http://www.vrukpedal.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXRz0SuPDsE#t=1m20s
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  #447  
Old 01-11-2013, 06:26 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Heres 2 videos I made of my technique, Its called HEEL/TOE but i refer to it more of a double stroke.. I have my springs cranked up for the rebound and I made these vids right after i learnt the technique.. After a few months of tweaking settings and practice 250bpm 16ths is not a problem and its got alot tighter... you don't NEED axis pedals for this but it does help to have a long board.
It can be done on a short board too it would just take getting used to the motion.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaGaAfDkhLM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FTSLL2tD0E

Heres a slightly more recent sound clip of the techinque.. your pedal settings make a big difference at these speeds to not have a "bouncy" feel to it... slowly getting it close at 240bpm.. still needs some work

https://soundcloud.com/scott-patters...racticing#play

Last edited by beyondbetrayal; 01-12-2013 at 02:27 AM. Reason: adding to it
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  #448  
Old 04-15-2013, 06:06 PM
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Reggae_Mangle Reggae_Mangle is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4YKFOJmxyA

Heel-toe video!

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  #449  
Old 06-24-2013, 05:14 PM
Asianmyster Asianmyster is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post

Pete Riley demonstrates a simple slide technique to pull off a double, its not heel/toe. He doesn't use the words "Heel/toe", he's not claiming its heel/toe, b/c its not. A lot of people confuse this stroke with heel/toe. This stroke has limitations due to the fact in it there's a place in it where you lose contact with the foot board while having to change direction at the same time, this creates a demand for balance. Pete uses his right foot to balance, and maintain his stability.
This is a awesome video on how to use that technique thanks for posting it
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  #450  
Old 08-23-2013, 05:48 AM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

made a quick review on using the demon drives for Heeltoe/doubles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIcdoezMxaM


I own an axis A longobard double and these now..... which one to keep. hahaha they BOTH rule
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  #451  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:40 AM
TreeClimbingFeet TreeClimbingFeet is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondbetrayal View Post
made a quick review on using the demon drives for Heeltoe/doubles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIcdoezMxaM


I own an axis A longobard double and these now..... which one to keep. hahaha they BOTH rule
Any updates? I'm not far away from ordering either some A21's or Demon Drives and I'll be doing doubles mainly.
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  #452  
Old 09-13-2013, 06:17 AM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I'm actually sold on the demons... but i have only tried the axis a-2's not the a21's

i know they hit a bit harder.. but i suggest trying both before you buy... if you havn't played axis before they take some getting used to...
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  #453  
Old 10-09-2013, 02:20 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by csprinklez View Post
I've got some tama speed cobras double pedals for sale, would anyone be interested?
Yes. I have 2 already, looking for a third (and then maybe some singles - to accompany my other double-bass kit).

Depends on price/condition/location/shipping method. Feel free to PM me.

What brought me into this thread (other than it being posted as a new/recent post), is the heel-toe method. I've always just played singles (hard for me to do above 240BPMs), so my comfort zone is around 200BPMs. I guess I do the 'slide' thing a little (as noted previously).

I've GOT to spend some time getting this down. Will work on it over the next several months. Maybe I can finally do 260-280BPMs without getting tired so damn fast.

(I usually do fast intricate rhythms, with more kicking, starts/stops, patters, etc..., to mask the fact that I get tired)
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  #454  
Old 11-29-2013, 02:36 AM
TreeClimbingFeet TreeClimbingFeet is offline
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Default Interlaced constant release/heel toe? by creepy Transylvanian guy

Check this dude out. Anyone else can play interlaced doubles? It sounds so good, without triggers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNg_9b8FBhA
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  #455  
Old 11-29-2013, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Interlaced constant release/heel toe? by creepy Transylvanian guy

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeClimbingFeet View Post
Check this dude out. Anyone else can play interlaced doubles? It sounds so good, without triggers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNg_9b8FBhA
I found that video a few months ago - impressive! He got that technique up to a stunning level of speed, control and sonic evenness. Seems there are quite few people who can do this.

Yes I do play interlaced doubles but my experience is they feel very comfy up to a certain speed (although if you get too slow this technique won't really be of any benefit, in the lower speed range people would usually just use singles) but for top speed I'd use the 'straight doubles' method (heel-toe w/ one foot, then one double stroke w/ my other foot etc). And getting all strokes even (both rhythmically and level wise) is something that takes a long time - not there yet. I would lose control at around 220 bpm - can mock 240 and even 250 w/ interlaced - trying to play along to that video - but it's just not clean. (Singles do work though but that would be my max speed.) Give me a few more years, haha.

Absolutely go for learning both interlaced and straight doubles, it's worth it.
I've bookmarket this video, for future reference (progress check, if any). Thanks for sharing!

Last edited by Arky; 11-29-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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  #456  
Old 11-29-2013, 09:45 AM
qualendi qualendi is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I play the slide technique, and what I've just learned is that in order for it to work, the foot must slide. The sole of the human foot has a good grip, try wearing some socks or footwear that has less friction.
Hopefully this theory can be applied to the heel toe technique.
And don't expect to grasp it overnight. Some drummers take weeks, others may take years. Just do a few minutes practicing this each day, and start slow. Eventually your muscle will memorize your movements and it will all feel natural.
Just my 2 cents.
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  #457  
Old 12-07-2013, 05:59 PM
CheeseCake95 CheeseCake95 is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Hi guys,
I'm a literal heel-toe convert, like i actually do the entire foot on pedal and heel drop etc... Any advice for beater distance ? I tend to set mine about 4-5 inches with full spring tension on a Pearl Demon drive. Any endurance exercises ? not sure if its the new set full tension and pushing max 260bpm really burns out my stamina, I noticed i don't last as long as i used to on lower tension. Any advice would be fantastic
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  #458  
Old 12-08-2013, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheeseCake95 View Post
Hi guys,
I'm a literal heel-toe convert, like i actually do the entire foot on pedal and heel drop etc... Any advice for beater distance ? I tend to set mine about 4-5 inches with full spring tension on a Pearl Demon drive. Any endurance exercises ? not sure if its the new set full tension and pushing max 260bpm really burns out my stamina, I noticed i don't last as long as i used to on lower tension. Any advice would be fantastic
I personally find that medium/loose spring tension is the way to go with my Pearl Demons when doing heel toe (no need to work as hard). I also have the beater a bit closer (maybe 3 inches) as I'm more interested in speed- not volume (I do use triggers though).
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  #459  
Old 12-08-2013, 07:24 AM
CheeseCake95 CheeseCake95 is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

interest ~ i guess i should a medium-loose tension a try.
thanks !
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  #460  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:32 AM
bud7h4 bud7h4 is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by qualendi View Post
I play the slide technique, and what I've just learned is that in order for it to work, the foot must slide. The sole of the human foot has a good grip, try wearing some socks or footwear that has less friction.
Hopefully this theory can be applied to the heel toe technique.
And don't expect to grasp it overnight. Some drummers take weeks, others may take years. Just do a few minutes practicing this each day, and start slow. Eventually your muscle will memorize your movements and it will all feel natural.
Just my 2 cents.

Lol, that is a fact.
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  #461  
Old 12-12-2013, 03:27 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

slide technique is VERY different...

here is a quick vid i made

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jfa_MQgBy0


if you look at my post about 5 down I demo the heel toe in my vids... Its called heel toe because the MOTION is made with the heel.. not because your using your heel.

i talk about head and pedal tensions in my vids.. but i would start with a tight batter skin and your pedals at half to 3/4 tension to start... as you get the technique and start playing faster.. turn it up as your muscles develope
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  #462  
Old 12-19-2013, 05:18 AM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

last heel toe vid i made for a guy i was teaching it to..

just a few extra tips to help you on your way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIU_RZz3GOo
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  #463  
Old 01-05-2014, 06:38 PM
cDark3r cDark3r is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

This is the technique that is stole: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHqkxHaQ-bI
You don't need a longboard, small feet or a high end pedal. I play this technique on an old Pearl P-100. Google that pedal. That is not a high-end pedal.
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  #464  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:24 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by cDark3r View Post
This is the technique that is stole: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHqkxHaQ-bI
You don't need a longboard, small feet or a high end pedal. I play this technique on an old Pearl P-100. Google that pedal. That is not a high-end pedal.

Not sure what you meant by stole? also. that is NOT what i am explaining in my video at all lol.

its similar.. but a totally different technique.. If he were to pull his feet back a few inches it would be very close..

Last edited by beyondbetrayal; 01-10-2014 at 08:25 PM. Reason: asdf
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  #465  
Old 02-04-2014, 12:28 AM
CheeseCake95 CheeseCake95 is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I found this video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJrp3nRL0c ... pretty good looking pedals, much like a rip off of Axis. Had a go at double strokes *not heel-toe* for the first proper time today, and it seems with enough practice to get the grasp of the technique, I can probably push over my limit of about 285 - 290 bpm in 16ths. I still kind of struggling to get the motion correct on my left foot as its a pumping type of feel compared to the heel-toe when i drive my heel down.
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  #466  
Old 02-04-2014, 09:09 AM
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lefty2 lefty2 is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

That looks like he's doing the slide technique. That seems like it would be hard to do. At least for me.
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  #467  
Old 02-04-2014, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Wow, that guy has remarkable foot technique.
Yes, looks like slide (which I'm poor at).
Great video for speed reference - I've bookmarked it. Thanks for sharing!
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  #468  
Old 02-04-2014, 02:53 PM
CheeseCake95 CheeseCake95 is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arky View Post
Wow, that guy has remarkable foot technique.
Yes, looks like slide (which I'm poor at).
Great video for speed reference - I've bookmarked it. Thanks for sharing!
the slide feels completely strange for me, maybe thats why i can never do it right. No probs, a good video though. More interested at those pedals as they seem pretty good
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  #469  
Old 02-09-2014, 03:49 PM
TreeClimbingFeet TreeClimbingFeet is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheeseCake95 View Post
I found this video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJrp3nRL0c ... pretty good looking pedals, much like a rip off of Axis. Had a go at double strokes *not heel-toe* for the first proper time today, and it seems with enough practice to get the grasp of the technique, I can probably push over my limit of about 285 - 290 bpm in 16ths. I still kind of struggling to get the motion correct on my left foot as its a pumping type of feel compared to the heel-toe when i drive my heel down.
He's in a few other videos doing some stupid fast double stroke rolls using home made longboard pedals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emPxFITdKUw in his flip-flops
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  #470  
Old 02-12-2014, 08:18 PM
bud7h4 bud7h4 is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

That's impressive, but that sliding fore and aft movement is not for me. I know musicians are fond of saying "there's no right or wrong way" to do something, but if you're using 5 times more energy to get the same result as the next guy, well . . . .
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  #471  
Old 03-07-2014, 04:33 PM
cDark3r cDark3r is offline
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Default Re: Videos of Heel toe bass method

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitaine Quebec View Post
i tried the heel toe technique and its working with my right foot but not the left. Good technique indeed but not for me. And those who say that can play with heel up faster thant the video exercise, normal, the video is for learning, not showing off :P

out of thread----
I have 2 bass drum, should i get a double pedal or 2 separate pedals? because if i want a decent pedal (what im planning to do because my pedals feel horrible, they are the stock pedals) like exemple iron cobra that is around 130$ new, its 2 time for me so 260$ plus tax so its kinda costy. if i buy a double pedal , i will be able to play with 1 or two bass drum depending on how i feel, but is it more costy than 2 pedals?
Found this thread: http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/sh...om-Your-Double
I thought you might like it.
A double pedal is cheaper than two singles right?
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