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  #1  
Old 10-06-2013, 07:52 PM
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Default Single Ply Head Users

....for an experiment. Anyone who dents heads actually. I have a hypothesis that I need some help proving. It's easy, and if true, should save you money.

I think that if you plug the vents on your drums, so the air cant escape, (important) it will go a long way to resisting dents in your heads. The air column, if it has no place to vent to, should provide more of a cushioning effect on the bottom side of your batter head. At least that's what I am trying to prove here.

As far as plugging the vent, whatever works as long as it seals the air inside. A piece of tape inside the shell over the vent might work, as long as it's a cellophane type tape. Cork might work. I also think not having a vent hole in a drum makes for a better rebound. When you port a bass drum, the rebound is affected. Same principle.

Anybody feel up for experimenting?
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

I wonder if you used some silicone sealant to literally seal off the drum from the outside world, could you maybe pop a reso head by hitting the batter? You'd have to tune them up and seal quick.

I'll need someone to test this also.
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
....for an experiment. Anyone who dents heads actually. I have a hypothesis that I need some help proving. It's easy, and if true, should save you money.

I think that if you plug the vents on your drums, so the air cant escape, (important) it will go a long way to resisting dents in your heads. The air column, if it has no place to vent to, should provide more of a cushioning effect on the bottom side of your batter head. At least that's what I am trying to prove here.

As far as plugging the vent, whatever works as long as it seals the air inside. A piece of tape inside the shell over the vent might work, as long as it's a cellophane type tape. Cork might work. I also think not having a vent hole in a drum makes for a better rebound. When you port a bass drum, the rebound is affected. Same principle.

Anybody feel up for experimenting?


How about filling them with nitrogen first, then plug the holes?

Wonder how well Moon's goldfish kit resisted denting???

I have a KELLER beater set w/no air vents, the heads still dent. In the end I believe its all how hard you hit/play.
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

Um Ok. I'll go home now.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
....for an experiment. Anyone who dents heads actually. I have a hypothesis that I need some help proving. It's easy, and if true, should save you money.

I think that if you plug the vents on your drums, so the air cant escape, (important) it will go a long way to resisting dents in your heads. The air column, if it has no place to vent to, should provide more of a cushioning effect on the bottom side of your batter head. At least that's what I am trying to prove here.

As far as plugging the vent, whatever works as long as it seals the air inside. A piece of tape inside the shell over the vent might work, as long as it's a cellophane type tape. Cork might work. I also think not having a vent hole in a drum makes for a better rebound. When you port a bass drum, the rebound is affected. Same principle.

Anybody feel up for experimenting?
I'd say just use 2 ply heads (I'm a fan of 1 ply and do get micro dents) or that try that new "Flexi Seal) in a can and fill the whole tom with it. Just make sure to block off the vent holes before applying.
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2013, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

Hmm. The last time I dented a single-ply head was before I began working towards a loose grip that allows the stick to freely bounce off the head - where the stick does a lot of the work for me. So, it was back when I was still gripping too hard and not allowing the stick to bounce freely off the head.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything here, but I'm just saying that I haven't dented heads in over 10 years now. All I do is put little stick marks on them. I don't know if that has something to do with my tuning or what, but it coincided with when I began obsessing over my technique.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:32 PM
JohnPloughman JohnPloughman is offline
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

I think I cant hit hard enough.

Honestly I never had this problem.

And there was a period of time I had pinstripes on my drums for way too long.

I have seen brand new heads all dented up from being too loose and hit way too hard with something more akin to a marching stick.
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

ime, it's all in how we play. i can play as hard as anyone, but i almost never dent my heads. my sticks hit the head at a very shallow angle (therein lies the answer, i think). i've even used diplomats (scary) as batters. for what it's worth, i have dented evans heads, almost never remo.
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2013, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

The only time I get dents is when I let my grandkids play them! :-)
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  #10  
Old 10-07-2013, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

I'm pretty sure its a technique thing. I used to dent heads a lot when I was a kid. I'd take the head off and it'd be concave with dents. It never happens now, even if I'm going for it. I think maybe I dented the floor tom once on a gig when I went a bit crazy, and I'm pretty sure I was airborne for some of the hit....
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  #11  
Old 10-07-2013, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

I don't dent them in my studio, but at gigs I will. It is all about the angle, but when I am playing, I don't pay as much attention to that stuff. I'm not saying an unvented drum prevents dents, but it may help to resist them. It would seem that they offer more cushioning than a vented head.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

i think you're reaching. air is so compressible, and the volume of the dent v. the volume of air in the cylinder (drum) are so divergent.
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2013, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
How about filling them with nitrogen first, then plug the holes?

Wonder how well Moon's goldfish kit resisted denting???

I have a KELLER beater set w/no air vents, the heads still dent. In the end I believe its all how hard you hit/play.
Holy smokes...

All I use is single ply heads. I can have the same heads on for a couple years and not have a single dent. I do think it's how hard you play.
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2013, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

I could be reaching. Trying to determine that. I would think there would be more back pressure on the heads in an unvented drum compared to a vented drum. At least that's what my logic tells me. If that is the case, then it is a better situation, dent-wise, than an unvented drum. Whether it is enough to resist dents is the question. I definitely like the little bit of extra rebound on an unvented drum.
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  #15  
Old 10-07-2013, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

and i always wondered what the deal with venting was anyway? i mean, is it absolutely necessary? i experimented plugging vent holes, and never could really tell any difference. it seems like sustain would be maximized if there were no vents, yes? and spiders/ fruit flies would be minimized...
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  #16  
Old 10-07-2013, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

I'd say it is not necessary at all. I love the feel of my unvented Guru's. And ALL the air movement is converted to tone. Escaping air can't activate the reso head.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Escaping air can't activate the reso head.
truer words were never spoken. no, really. i checked.
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  #18  
Old 10-08-2013, 01:47 AM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

I think it has more to do with how you hit the drum, like velocity, the force behind the stick, not letting the stick rebound, and angle of the impact. I have owned a Gretsch round badge and a late 50s Slingerland kit, both of which lack air holes in the toms, and there IS a difference in the rebound of the stick, but I don't think it would prevent head denting at all.

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Old 10-08-2013, 02:56 AM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

Saw a live vid recently with Steve Gadd and dented heads on his rack toms (For what thats worth.) I dont dent them, but I dont pound drums either.
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2013, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

I'll try the air vent experiment. I have to change a couple heads anyway.
I'll tape off on the outside on a few too, just to see what happens.

I use Coated Ambassadors (on everything but the snare).
I use double butt end sticks.
I play regularly in a Heavy Rock, and a Hard Blues/Rock band.

Even playing hard in some large venues, I don't dent heads normally at all.

In the life span of the heads, which could be 6-9 months, there might be one small dent in the 16" FT, and maybe 1 in the 12 or 13" tom (depending on what I feel like using during that time period). The 18 will never get a dent (or, hasn't gotten a dent that I can remember, can't say it won't ever haha!). The left side FT hasn't gotten a dent yet (since 93--the heads have been changed since then, yuck, yuck).

I had a head or two get a dent in it early, but that was when I had my kit as the "house kit" for all the drummers to use for a benefit.
The kit was basically not changed at all as far as floor tom heights or angles.
The tom not that I noticed either.

I can only assume it was from the angle that someone would normally come down on a drum at by the way they hold their hands.

Out of all the drummers (6) only maybe 1 of them had any training, or lessons. Not sure about that 1 person really--good player, not a hack, but, I don't know his background.
I had school orchestra and regular private snare drum lessons for about 4 years (stopped because I didn't want to go into competitions, and the teachers were kinda big into it. NOT for me).

MAYBE it's how someone strikes the head?

MAYBE it's the angle of the drums--mine are flat for FT's, almost flat for the tom.

I play heavy, and get a sound with some girth to it, but I play at all dynamic levels, mainly with Moller, and I play OFF the heads, not into them.
THAT may be the real reason for dents. Not EVERY stroke someone played is going to be "off" the head.

I play off the bass drum too, and that may be why I get 5-6 years of great sound and feel from an Ambassador bass drum head. With a single ply bass drum head, you'd think it would be dead sounding after about a year, but, by just changing that patch I use, the head feels new every time I do it--till I think I should probably change it (I had 7 years on one bass drum).
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  #21  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
I'll try the air vent experiment. I have to change a couple heads anyway.
I'll tape off on the outside on a few too, just to see what happens.

I use Coated Ambassadors (on everything but the snare).
I use double butt end sticks.
I play regularly in a Heavy Rock, and a Hard Blues/Rock band.

Even playing hard in some large venues, I don't dent heads normally at all.

In the life span of the heads, which could be 6-9 months, there might be one small dent in the 16" FT, and maybe 1 in the 12 or 13" tom (depending on what I feel like using during that time period). The 18 will never get a dent (or, hasn't gotten a dent that I can remember, can't say it won't ever haha!). The left side FT hasn't gotten a dent yet (since 93--the heads have been changed since then, yuck, yuck).

I had a head or two get a dent in it early, but that was when I had my kit as the "house kit" for all the drummers to use for a benefit.
The kit was basically not changed at all as far as floor tom heights or angles.
The tom not that I noticed either.

I can only assume it was from the angle that someone would normally come down on a drum at by the way they hold their hands.

Out of all the drummers (6) only maybe 1 of them had any training, or lessons. Not sure about that 1 person really--good player, not a hack, but, I don't know his background.
I had school orchestra and regular private snare drum lessons for about 4 years (stopped because I didn't want to go into competitions, and the teachers were kinda big into it. NOT for me).

MAYBE it's how someone strikes the head?

MAYBE it's the angle of the drums--mine are flat for FT's, almost flat for the tom.

I play heavy, and get a sound with some girth to it, but I play at all dynamic levels, mainly with Moller, and I play OFF the heads, not into them.
THAT may be the real reason for dents. Not EVERY stroke someone played is going to be "off" the head.

I play off the bass drum too, and that may be why I get 5-6 years of great sound and feel from an Ambassador bass drum head. With a single ply bass drum head, you'd think it would be dead sounding after about a year, but, by just changing that patch I use, the head feels new every time I do it--till I think I should probably change it (I had 7 years on one bass drum).
How often do you play per month? I am trying to learn something from you here. :)

Also, I think it's due to the angle of the stick as it strikes the head. That is, the more parallel the stick is to the head, the lower the chances are of denting the head. I don't remember where I learned it, but I remember learning that the stick should be as parallel to the heads for this very reason. It was on that day that I improved the angles of my drums. At the same time, I stopped denting heads. Although, I was also working on my technique like a madman, so I guess that played a role because I was striving for allowing the stick to do most of the work instead of me doing all of it.

So, my heads last a long time, including my bass drum - and I don't use a patch. However, I don't get to play my drums very often either. Maybe a couple of times per month for a couple of hours at a time. We gig maybe once every other month and we do 3 sets to fill a 4-hour night. I don't mind though because I can't afford new heads and sticks!

Anyway, how often do you play per month?
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Single ply head users needed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I could be reaching. Trying to determine that. I would think there would be more back pressure on the heads in an unvented drum compared to a vented drum. At least that's what my logic tells me. If that is the case, then it is a better situation, dent-wise, than an unvented drum. Whether it is enough to resist dents is the question. I definitely like the little bit of extra rebound on an unvented drum.

The term 'back-pressure' might be a little misleading in this application. Air being moved inside a drum is subject to a pressure (atmospheric) which has no direction, the air set in motion inside the drum is not being moved against a flow.

As someone already mentioned air does compress. Normal atmospheric pressure (we'll say 14.7 psi) is the resistance, inside a closed chamber like a dbl headed drum there's less air that needs to be compressed, add an air vent and you're connecting that chamber with the pressure/resistance outside.

A single headed drum would encounter more 'back-pressure' (resistance) than an enclosed shell with two heads on each side, much like an auto engine with no header/exhaust pipe encounters more back-pressure (full atmosphere) than the amount of atmospheric resistance in an enclosed tube (header/exhaust pipe). Set the engine/car in motion (transverse mounted 4 cyl exhaust fwd) and the engine experiences 'true back-pressure' (an air flow), that of which increases as the vehicles speed increases.

Venting a drum will, much like an engine exhaust header, creates a small, momentary vacuum inside the shell as air is forced out. Also much like an engine exhaust header, a drums air vent must be 'tuned' (in the case of a drum shell- size and placement) to optimize the effect.
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  #23  
Old 10-09-2013, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

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Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
Anyway, how often do you play per month?
It adds up to about 30, up to 40 hours a month (practicing, rehearsals, messing around...) I guess.
Not a ton of playing per week. It's just not possible anymore with family stuff, etc...

If I change a set of heads, the left side 16, and the 18 really wouldn't need to be changed, it's the 13 (or 12) and 16 mainly.

The snare lasts about 10 months to a year (Coated Emperor with a TOP Dot) of gigs (I mainly use 1 Black Beauty for all the gigs).

I have one Brass Edition that I've used pretty much exclusively at home for rehearsals and whatever, so maybe 6 months on that head before I want to change it (same batter head). So... say and average of 25 hours a month, and 6 months is 150 hours of playing on that snare head.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
It adds up to about 30, up to 40 hours a month (practicing, rehearsals, messing around...) I guess.
Not a ton of playing per week. It's just not possible anymore with family stuff, etc...

If I change a set of heads, the left side 16, and the 18 really wouldn't need to be changed, it's the 13 (or 12) and 16 mainly.

The snare lasts about 10 months to a year (Coated Emperor with a TOP Dot) of gigs (I mainly use 1 Black Beauty for all the gigs).

I have one Brass Edition that I've used pretty much exclusively at home for rehearsals and whatever, so maybe 6 months on that head before I want to change it (same batter head). So... say and average of 25 hours a month, and 6 months is 150 hours of playing on that snare head.
After reading this, I think I can say now that heads last a little longer than I thought. This is going to help give me a little more peace of mind about my heads from here on out. So, I thank you for taking the time to type all of that!
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
MAYBE it's how someone strikes the head?

MAYBE it's the angle of the drums
It's also how the head is tensioned. A tighter head will be harder to "dent".

I haven't dented a head since I can't remember when.
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  #26  
Old 10-11-2013, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

I have the heads tighter too. More of what people have referred to as jazz/big band tuning in the past.
Wouldn't doubt that the heads are helped by it for not denting on me--but others have put a small dent or two in them.
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2013, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

I'm really beginning to think that the more parallel the stick is to the heat, the lower the chances are of getting dents.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Single Ply Head Users

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Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
I'm really beginning to think that the more parallel the stick is to the heat, the lower the chances are of getting dents.
That pretty much sums it up.

I noticed that on the church kit that I mentioned in another thread. When I started to readjust everything for me from the previous drummer I noticed that he had the rack tom facing him, nearly vertical. Well, not quite, but a very steep angle anyway.

I like my rack toms about as low as they can go, almost touching the bass drum. I'm not a very tall guy so they have to be pretty low. Another reason I prefer 20" kicks, but that's another subject...
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:28 PM
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That pretty much sums it up.

I noticed that on the church kit that I mentioned in another thread. When I started to readjust everything for me from the previous drummer I noticed that he had the rack tom facing him, nearly vertical. Well, not quite, but a very steep angle anyway.

I like my rack toms about as low as they can go, almost touching the bass drum. I'm not a very tall guy so they have to be pretty low. Another reason I prefer 20" kicks, but that's another subject...
Same here, except I haven't been able to get a 20" kick. I have a 22", and the bottom hoop of my 12"x10" is just far enough away that it doesn't touch the bass drum hoop when I play it. I don't have to worry about my 10"x9" because both toms are to the left of my bass drum.
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