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  #1  
Old 09-24-2013, 08:09 PM
Benn Benn is offline
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Default Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

Hey Folks,
I recently bought a used Iron Cobra Jr double pedal (one of the older black ones). It works great except for a bit of lag on the slave pedal. When I push the two beaters forward with my hand and let go, the master beater will bounce back and forth very freely and slowly die out. The slave beater bounces a few times and then very abruptly stops as if something is hindering it from freely swinging. The problem only happens when the slave pedal/drive shaft are attached - if I detach them and perform the same test, both pedals swing freely. Even when I set the slave for the lowest tension and the master for the highest it still tapers off significantly sooner than the master. The pedal is playable like this, but the lack of bounce by the slave makes getting any left foot momentum impossible.

I lubed all of the moving parts of the pedal to no avail, so I took the whole thing apart, cleaned all of the cavities and bearings, and lubed the bearings. All of the bearings after the cleaning/lubing seemed healthy except for one which spins but not very well. I figured that was the culprit, so I put everything back together moving the dud bearing to the master side (just to test) and the slave is still stifled - almost as if someone was grabbing the beater after it bounces once or twice. I also swapped the master/slave springs to see if they had anything to do with it - same results. I imagine replacing all of the bearings couldn't hurt, but as all of the bearings associated with the slave pedal and drive shaft are spinning freely, it seems like something else could be wrong.

If anybody has any tips I'd really appreciate it! I did a search on the forum and didn't find anything like this, so I hope this hasn't been covered already. Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 09-24-2013, 09:17 PM
risewiththefallen risewiththefallen is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

There is always going to be lag in the slave pedal, every double pedal has it. You can reduce the amount of lag by getting a new drive shaft, and making sure the driveshaft joints are angled the same. Also make sure your spring tension is the same on both pedals.
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  #3  
Old 09-25-2013, 05:02 PM
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Reggae_Mangle Reggae_Mangle is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

It's the weight of the drive shaft, which is essentially connected to the second beater.

I'd say don't worry too much about it and persist with your practice and gigging. Those are nice pedals and worrying about something like that is just going to detract from your drumming. Every single double pedal with a drive shaft has a little lag in the slave BAR NONE. Might be a little less, but it's definitely there, so don't worry about it!

It's not the gear, it's what you put into your playing!
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:01 PM
Benn Benn is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

Those are all fair points. For full disclosure, I'm mostly comparing this pedal to my older single chain DW 5000 double pedal I used to play. If I pulled both beaters forward on that they'd both swing back and forth the same amount, or at least close. If I pull both beaters forward, same tension on both, the master swings back about 8 times, each one a bit slower. The slave swings about 3 times and stops abruptly as if I'd grabbed the beater. That's all that's making me weary of blaming the drive shaft, but I'm also inexperienced with these things, so probably my old DW was the one that was more the exception to this kind of rule of lagging. As you said, maybe that one just had a little less lag so that's what I'm expecting from the IC Jr.

I considered returning the pedal and trying to track down another one, but it's really only noticeable when I'm looking for the problem and moving the beaters with my hands, not when I'm playing...so my energy is probably better spent practicing. I'd replace the drive shaft with something nice, but that would cost more than I paid for the whole pedal which I really only went "cheap" on so I'd have something to learn on. Maybe some day! At least now I know this pedal inside and out, literally.

Thanks again for the tips folks!
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  #5  
Old 09-25-2013, 08:49 PM
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MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

Grab your slave pedal cam with one hand and your beater with the other. While keeping the cam still, try to move the beater back and forth. If it has more than about a quarter inch of play, your driveshaft U-joints are wearing out. This is why your beater has a loss of response. As the beater swings freely, the first set of U-joints must take up their slack to start to turn the driveshaft. Once the driveshaft starts to turn, the second set of U-joints must then take up their slack to move the slave pedal. All of this clunking of the U-joints is counteracting the spring, thus deadening your pedal responsiveness. One solution is to replace the driveshaft, the second would be add a spring to the slave side. A second spring will help the action of the slave pedal and assist the main spring in doing its job. It wont solve the slack in the driveshaft, but it will help alleviate some clunkiness to the slave side.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:20 PM
Benn Benn is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

Doing that test I can move the beater almost 3 inches without the cam moving at all. Oof! Now I understand the perils of online shopping for used pedals. Though I'm just starting out trying to seriously learn double bass, it seems like using something so worn out from the start isn't going to make things easier for me. Plus if I start to put more money into the thing then I'll be in the "Why didn't I just buy a standard IC to begin with?" price range (I got it for $100 w/ case and IC beaters). Thanks for that explanation.
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  #7  
Old 09-25-2013, 10:25 PM
The Old Hyde
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

A lot of drummers talk about slave pedal lag. I never experienced it with my pearl eliminators. I think drummers hate to admit their foot on the slave pedal just isn't up to par with their other foot.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:00 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Grab your slave pedal cam with one hand and your beater with the other. While keeping the cam still, try to move the beater back and forth. If it has more than about a quarter inch of play, your driveshaft U-joints are wearing out. This is why your beater has a loss of response. As the beater swings freely, the first set of U-joints must take up their slack to start to turn the driveshaft. Once the driveshaft starts to turn, the second set of U-joints must then take up their slack to move the slave pedal. All of this clunking of the U-joints is counteracting the spring, thus deadening your pedal responsiveness. One solution is to replace the driveshaft, the second would be add a spring to the slave side. A second spring will help the action of the slave pedal and assist the main spring in doing its job. It wont solve the slack in the driveshaft, but it will help alleviate some clunkiness to the slave side.
I had this problem after about 12 years of use of my Iron Cobras (before Speed Cobras). I just replaced the whole assembly. I don't have time for quick and easy maintenance...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn View Post
Doing that test I can move the beater almost 3 inches without the cam moving at all. Oof! Now I understand the perils of online shopping for used pedals. Though I'm just starting out trying to seriously learn double bass, it seems like using something so worn out from the start isn't going to make things easier for me. Plus if I start to put more money into the thing then I'll be in the "Why didn't I just buy a standard IC to begin with?" price range (I got it for $100 w/ case and IC beaters). Thanks for that explanation.
If you practice with a bad pedal, then eventually get a good one, your foot/brain connection may have to relearn (can take a few minutes/days/etc..., took me months).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Hyde View Post
A lot of drummers talk about slave pedal lag. I never experienced it with my pearl eliminators. I think drummers hate to admit their foot on the slave pedal just isn't up to par with their other foot.
Nor have I experienced it with my Speed Cobras. This doesn't cancel the weight of the connecting bar (and other additional components), though. It is not as noticeable with better pedals, but it is just physics.
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  #9  
Old 09-26-2013, 02:10 AM
Benn Benn is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

I stopped by Guitar Center this afternoon to try out some other pedals, just to get a feel for what is out there and how good condition pedals feel (ie the aforementioned 1/4" or less of play in the u-joints). I now realize just how wobbly/worn my pedal is and am definitely going to return it - no sense in collecting more doomed gear.

I'm going to look at an IC Rolling Glide double pedal off Craigslist tomorrow morning. Besides the u-joint test MrInsanePolack described, is there anything else I should look for? I don't want to get another dud and the amount of u-joint wear a pedal has is not something usually mentioned in online ads/auctions, so I figure in-person is the way to go. Since, whether I like it or not, now I know how to deconstruct an Iron Cobra, so cleaning it up/fighting off squeaks and clicks won't be an issue, but if anyone has any advice or common deal-breakers for these kinds of things, I'm all ears.

I'm not sure exactly which model it is, hoping somebody here could identify it. According to the IC history on Tama's site (http://www.tamadrum.co.jp/ironcobra_20th/history_e.html) it's the 1998 model, but the cam has the big R on it of the 2011 model (rather than having "ROLLING" spelled out the way it is on the photo of the 1998 model). So, obviously, it's from between 1998 and 2011. Anybody know anything about this era/specific model? Here is what it looks like (minus the price tag - I talked them down to $100 via email...so I'm a little suspicious):
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  #10  
Old 09-26-2013, 06:34 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

They LOOK fine (don't they always?).

Without feeling the action, no way I can tell any differently. Do these come with the Cobra Coil (spring underneath the pedals)?

And I wouldn't worry too much about price - that could mean they've been on the shelf for a while, and/or only paid the seller $40 for them. Now it seems like $100 is a steal.

It may be...

Or we may see another thread about what to look for when purchasing used IC's... lol!

Good luck!

(PS: I've had bad things happen in the past, that I just buy it right the first time - ended up with Speed Cobras on all my kits. If you don't like the long boards and lighter frames, you can still get the Iron Cobras)
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  #11  
Old 09-26-2013, 07:34 PM
Benn Benn is offline
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Default Re: Iron Cobra Jr Double Pedal Problem

Well, it was a bust! I tested the ujoint, got tons of play, then realized the drive shaft wasn't tightened. From there, I realized (literally) half of the screws and hardware were missing, the other half were stripped and jammed in, so the drive shaft couldn't be tightened. I figured even if I got hold of a screw extractor and replaced all the hardware, this thing had been abused and after all the trouble I'd probably wind up with tons of ujoint play. It was really trashed! It did have the cobra coil though. I probably could have bought it and flipped it for more cash, or fixed it up and did the same, but I'm tired of this game - I just want a decent pedal! I realize brand new pedals come with the peace of mind having them work perfect, but all I can afford is used, so the hunt continues...

If anyone on here is in the Connecticut area and is looking for an IC project, here's the link: http://hartford.craigslist.org/msd/4071162238.html
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