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  #201  
Old 09-17-2013, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
As far as the science project idea goes, I can imagine that, just like we plant vegetables in a garden, extraterrestrials (ET's) have planted a race on several different planets; each one being unique to its own atmospheric and cosmic circumstances. Some will grow up and flourish into their old age, some will perish due to catastrophic events, some will get eaten by bugs, some will destroy and poison themselves. Sometimes a race needs to be planted a couple or few times on a certain planet for it to take once and for all. Maybe the ET's are very interested in this planet because we are on the cusp of being harvested. Mwahahahaha!
"There is unrest in the forest/ and the creatures all have fled/ as the maples scream oppression/ and the oaks just shake their heads" - Rush
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  #202  
Old 09-18-2013, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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...
I think humans are optimistic by nature, but we are also selfish, greedy and arrogant. We are also easily influenced by the energy around us. That is why one bad apple employee or coworker can make a whole team or band kinda miserable.
...
Aussie news article. Short version: Being happy is good for you and everybody else around you.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life...917-2tx7o.html
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  #203  
Old 09-19-2013, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Aussie news article. Short version: Being happy is good for you and everybody else around you.

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life...917-2tx7o.html
I'm a fan of Dan Gilbert's happiness TED talk - I've posted it here a few times already but maybe someone missed it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU

Twelve years ago I had my first peak experience (at the time, I'd not touched weed for years) but it may not surprise you that I called it "My Cosmic Experience" (I've since had another). Afterwards I had a period of a couple of days where I was thinking especially lucidly.

At the time I was living in a rented flat with not much savings, no car, no drumming etc. I dreamed of having enough $$ to retire - to get off the 9 to 5 treadmill working with grumpy lawyers. During my insightful period I realised that it would make no difference to my happiness. Even if I won the lottery the next day I would not be happier - I'd still worry and be insecure and generally messy - just that my demons would be put to work on different circumstances.

That's why I'm so into the heady stuff of late. I now have the money, time and freedom and I want to be better able to appreciate it. I feel similar discordance in my inner world to before, despite now being retired and very comfortable. It's nothing dramatic, but worth sorting out IMO.

Most people seem cynical at the idea of doing self work. We spend so much time enaged in activity that the notion of trying to improve your psychological dynamics and internalised philosophical chops seems like an absurd, hubristic, self-focused waste of time. That's the impression I get - adults are just supposed to have their philosophical chops together "naturally".

Just like drumming, eh? It's just a natural thing for a human to do ... the universe is made of rhythms ... easy peasy! You don't need to work at it ... all you need are good instincts to be a great drummer ... right?

:)
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  #204  
Old 09-19-2013, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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I'm a fan of Dan Gilbert's happiness TED talk - I've posted it here a few times already but maybe someone missed it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU

Twelve years ago I had my first peak experience (at the time, I'd not touched weed for years) but it may not surprise you that I called it "My Cosmic Experience" (I've since had another). Afterwards I had a period of a couple of days where I was thinking especially lucidly.

At the time I was living in a rented flat with not much savings, no car, no drumming etc. I dreamed of having enough $$ to retire - to get off the 9 to 5 treadmill working with grumpy lawyers. During my insightful period I realised that it would make no difference to my happiness. Even if I won the lottery the next day I would not be happier - I'd still worry and be insecure and generally messy - just that my demons would be put to work on different circumstances.

That's why I'm so into the heady stuff of late. I now have the money, time and freedom and I want to be better able to appreciate it. I feel similar discordance in my inner world to before, despite now being retired and very comfortable. It's nothing dramatic, but worth sorting out IMO.

Most people seem cynical at the idea of doing self work. We spend so much time enaged in activity that the notion of trying to improve your psychological dynamics and internalised philosophical chops seems like an absurd, hubristic, self-focused waste of time. That's the impression I get - adults are just supposed to have their philosophical chops together "naturally".

Just like drumming, eh? It's just a natural thing for a human to do ... the universe is made of rhythms ... easy peasy! You don't need to work at it ... all you need are good instincts to be a great drummer ... right?

:)
+1. Great post, Anon_La_Ply.
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  #205  
Old 09-22-2013, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Most people seem cynical at the idea of doing self work. We spend so much time enaged in activity that the notion of trying to improve your psychological dynamics and internalised philosophical chops seems like an absurd, hubristic, self-focused waste of time. That's the impression I get - adults are just supposed to have their philosophical chops together "naturally".
Nobody lived this kind of self-work like Ben Franklin: morning and night he reflected on what he did. That is a crazy amount of meditation and self-reflection.

(edited to more clearly address the post)
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  #206  
Old 09-22-2013, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Nobody lived this kind of self-work like Ben Franklin: morning and night he reflected on what he did. That is a crazy amount of meditation and self-reflection.

(edited to more clearly address the post)
Smart man - that intensely goal oriented approach looks like a good way not to waste time or repeat mistakes. Tragically, the part I most related to was "Order, too, with regard to places for things, papers, etc., I found extreamly difficult to acquire".

"Resolution of the day" seems like an interesting idea - deliberately "programming himself" (which works nicely into the Digital Physics model) to limit his focus and behaviours, presumably to sharpen the focus he has. I've done a similar thing when drumming where I set myself an agenda, eg. make sure I can always hear the bass; avoid making a racket; simplicity and time, etc

Funny thing - we program ourselves all the time - lessons from parents / youth, mottos and quotes, ancient texts, lessons and agendas from the arts etc.
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  #207  
Old 09-22-2013, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Tragically, the part I most related to was "Order, too, with regard to places for things, papers, etc., I found extreamly difficult to acquire"
I know, I know. Today I arranged several piles of paper into slightly fewer piles of paper, and called it "cleaning my office." I've got a new path from the door to the desk so at least I can eat.

Though I did like that Franklin knew enough to take a break from the schedule. “The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?”

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avoid making a racket
heh.
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  #208  
Old 09-22-2013, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.

Stephen Hawking
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  #209  
Old 09-24-2013, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.

Stephen Hawking

Too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously. Where does having a destiny imply taking leave of your senses?

Even people that look both ways when they cross the road get mowed down. Does this mean they do/do not believe in pre-destiny?
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  #210  
Old 09-24-2013, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Too much of an exaggeration to be taken seriously. Where does having a destiny imply taking leave of your senses?
It's not an exaggeration... It's literal. If you truly believe that whatever is going to happen to you in the road while you cross is simply destiny, and you can do nothing to change it, what's the point of looking?
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  #211  
Old 09-24-2013, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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It's not an exaggeration... It's literal. If you truly believe that whatever is going to happen to you in the road while you cross is simply destiny, and you can do nothing to change it, what's the point of looking?
I think that might be instinctive, reflexive neurological/muscular impulse rather than a considered choice.

If someone swings a machete at your head, chances are you will duck, regardless of which side of the argument you're on.


...
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  #212  
Old 09-25-2013, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

On a related note, if you are of a petrol headed persuasion, google "Saudi drifting".

Among the many things to be amazed and aghast at are the large number of spectators with no sort of safety barrier between themselves and the looniest of loopy driving "techniques".

One of the explanations that I've heard for the utter disregard of personal safety is the Islamic notion of "Inshallah", the will of Allah, which is similar to pre-destiny. Whatever happens is Allah's will.
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  #213  
Old 09-25-2013, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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One of the explanations that I've heard for the utter disregard of personal safety is the Islamic notion of "Inshallah", the will of Allah, which is similar to pre-destiny. Whatever happens is Allah's will.
James, that makes perfect sense if you are raised in such an environment and you have been raised in deep, oppressive religiosity of that kind ... and if you have the kind of genetic makeup makes you unlikely to actively resist indoctrination.

The past makes the present inevitable. Current understanding has it that it's a chain of events starting from the first quantum variations within the Big Bang.

'Aha!' one might say. 'I can fool so-called destiny by suddenly raising a hand spontaneously and I don't even know which hand so how could destiny "know"?'

But ... everything in that person's past means they're the kind of gronk who'd try to fool destiny with that kind of game and your unconscious mind has been geared by the past to decide which hand to lift.

If you are the kind of person who chooses not to take crazy risks - destiny or no destiny - then your past and genetics would have made it inevitable that you'd be that kind of person. Each decision you make is a product of your genetics and past (assuming there is no present because by the time you observe it, it is the past).

Each moment reduces your potentials and possibilities. For instance, I am typing this from Seoul airport (feeling a bit spaced out) and every event that went before made it inevitable that I'd type this from Seoul and not Sydney ...
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  #214  
Old 09-25-2013, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Ah Seoul! That is where you'll find your Seoul mate. It's predestined!

Love your work lately Anon. Retirement suits you. I can't contribute too much anymore, I'm spent, but I am fascinated by what I am reading.
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  #215  
Old 09-25-2013, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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...The past makes the present inevitable. Current understanding has it that it's a chain of events starting from the first quantum variations within the Big Bang.
My understanding is that quantum effects (and chaos effects) mean that the future cannot be extrapolated from the past for complex systems.
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  #216  
Old 09-25-2013, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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James, that makes perfect sense if you are raised in such an environment and you have been raised in deep, oppressive religiosity of that kind ... and if you have the kind of genetic makeup makes you unlikely to actively resist indoctrination.

The past makes the present inevitable. Current understanding has it that it's a chain of events starting from the first quantum variations within the Big Bang.

'Aha!' one might say. 'I can fool so-called destiny by suddenly raising a hand spontaneously and I don't even know which hand so how could destiny "know"?'

But ... everything in that person's past means they're the kind of gronk who'd try to fool destiny with that kind of game and your unconscious mind has been geared by the past to decide which hand to lift.

If you are the kind of person who chooses not to take crazy risks - destiny or no destiny - then your past and genetics would have made it inevitable that you'd be that kind of person. Each decision you make is a product of your genetics and past (assuming there is no present because by the time you observe it, it is the past).

Each moment reduces your potentials and possibilities. For instance, I am typing this from Seoul airport (feeling a bit spaced out) and every event that went before made it inevitable that I'd type this from Seoul and not Sydney ...

Islam isn't oppressive. It's just that the extreme practitioners are the loudest in the crowd, so it's assumed they're all like that.

Think Christianity around the time of the Renaissance or Inquisition. It doesn't define the religion. It's a rabid interpretation.

Like that kind of Christianity, rabid and violent Islam is doomed to being crushed under the collective weight of rationale, modern thought and deed.

As far as being in Seoul and not Sydney, Anon La Ply, you might be cosmically, genetically, poetically or ironically pre-disposed toward making the choices that landed you in your present predicament/state of wonderment.
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  #217  
Old 09-26-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Islam isn't oppressive. It's just that the extreme practitioners are the loudest in the crowd, so it's assumed they're all like that.

Think Christianity around the time of the Renaissance or Inquisition. It doesn't define the religion. It's a rabid interpretation.

Like that kind of Christianity, rabid and violent Islam is doomed to being crushed under the collective weight of rationale, modern thought and deed.

As far as being in Seoul and not Sydney, Anon La Ply, you might be cosmically, genetically, poetically or ironically pre-disposed toward making the choices that landed you in your present predicament/state of wonderment.

Hi- Although I agree that as a whole, practitioners of Islam are not oppressive, some men of Islam are very much concerned with keeping women in a lowly place. I can't get with that.
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  #218  
Old 09-26-2013, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Hi- Although I agree that as a whole, practitioners of Islam are not oppressive, some men of Islam are very much concerned with keeping women in a lowly place. I can't get with that.
As are some men of Christianity.
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  #219  
Old 09-26-2013, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

I'll try once again ... the [expletive] hotel's wifi has wasted over an hour of typing on the phone ... so far.

Don't care about the religion stuff (and don't want this thread shut down) - it was just an example of how our "now" is shaped ... by genetics, environment (which would include creed) and our past.

James, yes, if you talk about distant past then the effects are unpredictable but as the recent past has a huge effect on the "present" (which becomes the past as soon as we try to grasp it).

"Chaos" is just a useful black box fiction for practical intents and purposes ... in lieu of a better understanding of cause and effect.

BTW Rome is amazing! (and insane;)
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  #220  
Old 09-26-2013, 09:09 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

PS. weird how the free internet in the hotel can handle internet forms while the 15 Euro room connection can't...
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  #221  
Old 09-27-2013, 03:37 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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As are some men of Christianity.
Lol! Good one! Like when Christian men make their women cover their faces when going into public? You're so right!
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  #222  
Old 09-27-2013, 05:25 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Lol! Good one! Like when Christian men make their women cover their faces when going into public? You're so right!
This has nothing to do with destiny, Gretsch. Do you have thoughts on the subject matter of the thread?

There is nothing about ourselves or our preferred tribe/s that makes us any better or worse than others. If I was put in your body with your environment from birth I would respond exactly the same as you. And vice versa.

We take credit and blame for a lot of stuff that was never in our control. We are brief eddies in a vast ocean of energy, buffeted by currents and waves until we dissipate or are dissipated.
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  #223  
Old 09-27-2013, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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...... keeping women in a lowly place. I can't get with that.
World history is a curious thing. If you go back far enough, you will find that human behavior has been pretty consistent throughout the globe . If you think human injustice and female discrimination are the exclusive domain of one region on earth, you arent going back far enough in time or looking in other places.

That said, I agree with Grea, lets steer clear of religious comment here, because this thread is a real pearl in a sea of tin foil. I'd hate to see it shut down.


...
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Frankly, I'm amazed this thread has gone on this long without any major fighting. Bravo everyone. It CAN be done.
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  #225  
Old 09-27-2013, 07:51 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

No.
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  #226  
Old 09-27-2013, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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No.
Geez, I wish you'd said earlier.

You'd've saved us six pages of wasted typing.
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  #227  
Old 09-27-2013, 09:24 AM
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Geez, I wish you'd said earlier.

You'd've saved us six pages of wasted typing.
Haha ... Bob must be the strong and silent type!

They retain a dignified silence while leaving you in the dark, usually in a state of disturbed confusion ... though I might be projecting from past relationships ... having said that i agree with him :)
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  #228  
Old 09-27-2013, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Haha ... Bob must be the strong and silent type!
I certainly can relate to that....
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  #229  
Old 09-27-2013, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Lol! Good one! Like when Christian men make their women cover their faces when going into public? You're so right!
I'm not talking about the covering of faces. I'm merely pointing out that every religion has fringe elements and unpleasant consequences - including Christianity. This applies even to the treatment of women. In most denominations, women can't be priests, for example.

In the UK there is an ongoing debate about the various forms of Islamic dress and one of the interesting points is that most of the women that are interviewed speak about how it was their choice to wear it, not their husband's. It's a small and specialised sample but in these Islamic dress is not necessarily anything to do with the husband's view.

From the tone of your reply, I take it you're a Christian. Surely your edict is therefore to be accepting of different cultures, views and customs regardless of your views on individual points of dogma?
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Duncan, on the surface you are exercising your free will to engage with Mr O-Rama about boring religious guff and the similarities of their traditions on this thread.

However, I know you don't have a choice since your past has resulted in you being a brilliant, but argumentative, git. Meanwhile I am an patronising old cow despite my almost complete lack of achievement thanks to the bats that life put in my belfry :)

To all this Kurt Vonnegut would have said "so it goes".
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  #231  
Old 09-27-2013, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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I think that might be instinctive, reflexive neurological/muscular impulse rather than a considered choice.
Nope. We spend a lot of time teaching kids to look before crossing. It seems instinctive because it's drilled into your head, not because some natural instinct of human behavior takes cars and streets into account. Why would instinctive reactions to danger be present if danger could not be avoided, and any attempts to avoid it are futile because it will happen or won't? How would it benefit the species? Pre-destiny, especially on the micro-scale is bollocks. The universe is reacting to what happens, not dictating it.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:06 PM
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Nope. We spend a lot of time teaching kids to look before crossing. It seems instinctive because it's drilled into your head, not because some natural instinct of human behavior takes cars and streets into account. Why would instinctive reactions to danger be present if danger could not be avoided, and any attempts to avoid it are futile because it will happen or won't? How would it benefit the species? Pre-destiny, especially on the micro-scale is bollocks. The universe is reacting to what happens, not dictating it.
I thought similarly to you about free will until seeing Sam Harris' s YT talk on the impossibilty of free will.

Also nothing is ever done for "the benefit of the species" ... it's all individuals acting on their own behalf.

In real life (as opposed to our cultural bubble) instinct is paramount ... if you don't check to make sure you're not going to be run over by rampaging elephants (ie. cars ) then you don't pass on your genes. Genetics favours those who avoid getting smooshed ...
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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I thought similarly to you about free will until seeing Sam Harris' s YT talk on the impossibilty of free will.
I'll have to check it out. I would wager that it has to do with semantics and definitions of the terms, though.

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Also nothing is ever done for "the benefit of the species" ... it's all individuals acting on their own behalf.
I was referring more to natural selection. Traits and "instincts" that are not beneficial would have no reason to exist or develop. If selection is not natural and instead some cosmic process that makes choice and circumstance irrelevant, instincts to avoid danger would be pointless.

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In real life (as opposed to our cultural bubble) instinct is paramount ... if you don't check to make sure you're not going to be run over by rampaging elephants (ie. cars ) then you don't pass on your genes. Genetics favours those who avoid getting smooshed ...
Right, but what we're discussing is the possibility that you were "meant" to be trampled and could not avoid it because the universe decided so. In effect, un-natural selection.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:54 PM
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Duncan, on the surface you are exercising your free will to engage with Mr O-Rama about boring religious guff and the similarities of their traditions on this thread.

However, I know you don't have a choice since your past has resulted in you being a brilliant, but argumentative, git. Meanwhile I am an patronising old cow despite my almost complete lack of achievement thanks to the bats that life put in my belfry :)

To all this Kurt Vonnegut would have said "so it goes".
Argumentative git?! We'll have to take this outside...
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:06 PM
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Argumentative git?! We'll have to take this outside...
See you in London in a couple of weeks, lad ... drum sticks at 10 paces ... if you've got the nerve!
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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I'll have to check it out. I would wager that it has to do with semantics and definitions of the terms, though.

I was referring more to natural selection. Traits and "instincts" that are not beneficial would have no reason to exist or develop. If selection is not natural and instead some cosmic process that makes choice and circumstance irrelevant, instincts to avoid danger would be pointless.

Right, but what we're discussing is the possibility that you were "meant" to be trampled and could not avoid it because the universe decided so. In effect, un-natural selection.
Re semantics: check out the vid and let me know. He seemed pretty unequivocal. He said that scientifically the notion of free will is incoherent.

Re instincts having no need to develop: I'd say that developing instincts would be as inevitable as everything else.

Thing is, if you decided your number was up and so you'd step in front of a bus then that would also be inevitable based on, I guess, depression or psychosis due to genetics and environment.

Are we on the same page or am I misreading semantics. Hard to say between jet lag and wino over dinner ...
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:32 PM
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See you in London in a couple of weeks, lad ... drum sticks at 10 paces ... if you've got the nerve!
I can assure you that I'm accurate.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Geez, I wish you'd said earlier.

You'd've saved us six pages of wasted typing.
It was a yes/no question, and I answered it. ;)

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Haha ... Bob must be the strong and silent type!
Sometimes. Other times you can't shut me up.

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Old 09-28-2013, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

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Surely your edict is therefore to be accepting of different cultures, views and customs regardless of your views on individual points of dogma?
Absolutely. And Ive been laughed at on this board before for saying this, but Christianity is NOT exclusive. In fact, all-inclusive. At the core, that's the teachings. Does everyone who professes to be a Christian act that way? Not nearly.

Ive been somewhat interested in finding more about early Christian church gnostics. They incorporated a great deal of philosophy into their beliefs. Although I'll say not all of their beliefs lined up with history. An amazing Christian artist, and I mean ARTIST, Ive been getting a lot of inspiration from recently is Phil Keaggy. Christian or not, this man is simply amazing. anyway, yeah
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Old 09-28-2013, 03:59 AM
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Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

And further more, to actually address the thread, my Grandfather told me in moment that he feels life is like going through a funnel in a forward direction. I think he meant the perception of our reality and ourselves and time. I think especially time is that way. Like, as time happens we are almost being pulled by something through that funnel. We may have distractions at some of the wider parts that may influence our choices. (I could almost get spiritual here) But I think the point is, we are the most unscathed by life if we can head directly to our goals and progress. Distraction is such a bitch really... I think it's why people are unhappy, have pain, and have little meaning in their lives. And there's more and more to be distracted about everyday....aye.
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