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Old 08-24-2013, 02:03 AM
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Default Our unconscious mind

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As we all know, at least at some level, our practice is basically the conscious mind training the unconscious mind and body to play. Hal Galper basically says as much here and elsewhere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8

Often we've talked about getting our heads out of the way when playing so we can express freely and flow with the music. That's what Zen practice is all about, along with other mental practices around.

Drumdevil9 recommended a Sam Harris video in the destiny/free will thread and while Googling some ideas SH talks about I came across this:
Dr Lipton explains that there are two separate minds that create what he calls the body’s controlling voice. There is a conscious mind that can think freely and create new ideas ‘out of the box’. Then there is the subconscious mind, which is basically a super computer loaded with a database of programmed behaviors, most of which we acquired before we reached the age of six.

The subconscious mind cannot move outside its fixed programs – it automatically reacts to situations with its previously stored behavior responses. AND (here’s the rub), it works without the knowledge or control of the conscious mind. This is why we are generally unaware of our behavior, in fact most of the time we are not even aware that we are acting unconsciously.

Studies from as far back as the seventies show that our brains begin to prepare for action just over a third of a second before we consciously decide to act. In other words, even when we ‘think’ we are conscious, it is our unconscious mind which is actually making our decisions for us.

And it seems the unconscious mind is running us on its automatic pilot mode, 95% of the time!

Neuroscientists have shown that the conscious mind provides 5% or less of our cognitive (conscious) activity during the day – and 5% they say is for the more aware people, many people operate at just 1% consciousness. Dr Lipton also says that the unconscious mind operates at 40 million bits of data per second, whereas the conscious mind processes at only 40 bits per second. So the unconscious mind is MUCH more powerful than the conscious mind, and it is the unconscious mind which shapes how we live our life.

The scientists show that most of our decisions, actions, emotions and behavior depend on the 95% of brain activity that is beyond our conscious awareness, which means that 95 – 99% of our life comes from the programming in our subconscious mind.
http://www.lifetrainings.com/Your-un...-you-life.html (I felt the article writer jumped to some unsubstantiated conclusions at times but it's a fascinating article).

The notion of "being in the moment" when we play is about relaxing the conscious mind to allow the unconscious mind make its observations at 40 million bits per second, as opposed to the conscious mind's 40 bits per second.

I've only recently started exploring what goes on here. If you want to muck in with observations, bring it on!

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Old 08-24-2013, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Not disputing the power of the unconscious (subconscious?) mind, but I'm wary of descriptions of brain power in bits per second, for the simple reason that our brains are analog, not digital, so bits are meaningless measures.

But, after all that, this morning I went for a MTB ride (Manly Dam for any Sydneysiders who happen to read this). The whole endeavour - from the simple act of balancing a bicycle - relies on the subconscious to make it work. This frees up the conscious mind to ponder life's mysteries. Or in my case, alternate between "Holy carp, that uphill was hard...I think I'm gonna puke!" to "Ooooohhh....that drop off...I think I'm gonna die!"
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Someone shoot me! I feel like I just went back 25+ years ago to my college psychology classes. I hope we don't have a homework assignment due in the morning! I will say this...I believe all human behavior comes from our early childhood when our brains "soak" in surrounding behaviors. Basically people exemplify how they were raised and what they were raised around. That is all courtesy of the subconcious mind. As a police officer I see it daily. I've dealt with a lot of very bad people and I have watched their children grow up to be very bad people. As they say...the apple doesn't fall to far from the tree.
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Fascinating stuff!

I liken this sort of thinking to what athletes call 'the zone'. When I used to snow ski about 100+ days a year once in a blue moon I would have what I call 'the perfect run'. My conscious mind would recede as it were and the body, (it seemed), just took over and I was completely flowing. Euphoric really...and very difficult to reproduce. My conscious mind would want to replicate 'the run' and I guess that's where it got in the way. I would perform well, but not like that 'perfect run'.

I've also had similar experiences with drumming, but felt more like an out of body experience. Kind of like I was observing myself play, and play perfectly. Again very rare, but euphoric.

I reckon that folks like Eckhart Tolle and the Zen masters et. al. had it right and that if we train ourselves to stop, or at least decrease, our incessant inner chatter (talking to ourselves) we can more freely access our subconscious mind. The path to Nirvana is, apparently, available to all.
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

So, if the subconscious mind controls that much of our activity, is the last 5% free will?

I do understand being in "the Zone" as far as drumming is concerned. It usually happens after the second hour of drumming where I'm all warmed up and all the bugs have been worked out of the system (the mind). There are moments of clarity where the mind does not get in the way and I can do impressive things I've never thought of until I was there at that point and in the moment. Then at the end of the night driving home, I wonder if I can get there again. How can I do that stuff consistently and bring that kind of drumming out of myself on a regular basis? So I am driven to tap into that excellence in my playing more often because the more times I do that, the more it becomes habit. Preparation plays a big part in it too. When I actually do sit down and wood shed on the fundamentals, it opens doors for me when I am finally in that moment or zone.
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Great stuff here Grea, The mind is an interesting thing.
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Great stuff Grea. It is incredible to think on where our behavior truly comes from.

On a related note, we can't even trust our senses to be giving us accurate feedback as to what is occurring in the physical world anymore. It turns out that our brain edits out most of the sensory input we receive and presents us with what evolution has decided is only the most relevant data.

Check out this video and get ready to have your foundation shaken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Definitely something to "the zone" or a zen like state. I'm sure everyone at one point in time has been daydreaming while driving, and the next thing they know is they are miles from where they were when they last remember, have gone through a stop sign and made a few turns, but have no recollection of how they did it. Yet it was all done correctly and with other cars on the road.

When I was a kid I used to play Tetris on my Nintendo everyday for sometimes hours at a time. There were moments, more often than not, when I didn't think at all, just stared at the screen and let my hands do what they wanted. When this happened, I could continue to put blocks where they needed to go, regardless of how fast they were falling, and I was aware that this was happening. I couldn't make it happen, and when I tried to think about block placement, I never did as well as when my body just did it.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

This is fascinating stuff! As it relates to Larry's thread, I don't think the fact that 95% of brain activity is unconscious necessarily negates free will. Influences our actions? Almost certainly.

I've tried to think of a simple analogy to explain my take on it, and the closest I can come to is an automobile.

When I drive my car, I am probably unaware of 99% of the activities taking place in the auto itself. Yet I can still choose where to drive and how fast, within certain parameters. Some of those parameters are external to both myself and the car, some are inherent in the design of the car itself. Things I do influence the performance of the car, and the cars performance influences my own decisions.

Yet, at the core of it, *I* drive the car.

OK, that's all I've got for now! lol What a wild discussion on a drumming forum!

(Oh, yeah, I definitely believe in the zone, too.)
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Old 08-25-2013, 12:44 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Around 4m55s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8#t=4m55s, Hal Galper talks about how the unconscious mind - or as he calls it, "the intuitive level" - is so much faster than our conscious mind.

Thing is, I always hear that when playing music (or anything) the conscious mind needs to be suppressed in order to get into the zone. Yet the conscious mind is an attribute that's given humans dominance over the earth and is obviously incredibly useful. Just not when you are trying to perform at your best. The best foot we put forward always seems to be that "shadow self" - that's when you're "being yourself" ... when you are less aware of what you're doing. We seem to be designed to fly blind.

Love that McGurk Effect. Amazing how you can't adjust to it.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Around 4m55s http://www.youtube.com/watch?#t=295, Hal Galper talks about how the unconscious mind - or as he calls it, "the intuitive level" - is so much faster than our conscious mind.

Thing is, I always hear that when playing music (or anything) the conscious mind needs to be suppressed in order to get into the zone. Yet the conscious mind is an attribute that's given humans dominance over the earth and is obviously incredibly useful. Just not when you are trying to perform at your best. The best foot we put forward always seems to be that "shadow self" - that's when you're "being yourself" ... when you are less aware of what you're doing. We seem to be designed to fly blind.

Love that McGurk Effect. Amazing how you can't adjust to it.
Grea- the link didn't work for me. I'm trying to recall the clip as I've seen so many of Hal's clips.

Fascinating topic. I don't have much to contribute but I am certainly enjoying the information shared here, like on Larry's thread.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Around 4m55s http://www.youtube.com/watch?#t=295, Hal Galper talks about how the unconscious mind - or as he calls it, "the intuitive level" - is so much faster than our conscious mind.

Thing is, I always hear that when playing music (or anything) the conscious mind needs to be suppressed in order to get into the zone. Yet the conscious mind is an attribute that's given humans dominance over the earth and is obviously incredibly useful. Just not when you are trying to perform at your best. The best foot we put forward always seems to be that "shadow self" - that's when you're "being yourself" ... when you are less aware of what you're doing. We seem to be designed to fly blind.

Love that McGurk Effect. Amazing how you can't adjust to it.
I hear you about "being designed to fly blind". Timothy Gallway, in his seminal work "The Inner Game of Tennis" does a remarkable job of illuminating the "shadow self" you refer to.

He uses the terms "Self 1" and "Self 2" to describe the two. He also has several methods in there of accessing "Self 2".

I highly recommend his work if you are looking at applying this concept to your playing/life.

And the McGurk effect is crazy. Makes one wonder what we can really be sure of if we can't even hear a simple sound correctly.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:48 PM
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Grea- the link didn't work for me. I'm trying to recall the clip as I've seen so many of Hal's clips.
Whoops. Thanks for saying. Fixed now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8#t=4m55s

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I hear you about "being designed to fly blind". Timothy Gallway, in his seminal work "The Inner Game of Tennis" does a remarkable job of illuminating the "shadow self" you refer to.

He uses the terms "Self 1" and "Self 2" to describe the two. He also has several methods in there of accessing "Self 2".

I highly recommend his work if you are looking at applying this concept to your playing/life.

And the McGurk effect is crazy. Makes one wonder what we can really be sure of if we can't even hear a simple sound correctly.
Dad used to have that book. I had a look at it years ago and the next time I played I stank so I put it aside :) I guess I wasn't ready for it at the time. Might be worth giving it another try.

I guess what we experience is only filtered reality anyway. All our senses are limited by strength and range. There are squillions of things going on at any given time that we fail to see, hear, smell, taste, feel or sense. We have evolved to detect most of what we need to survive and not much more. I guess there must be some evolutionary advantage in having the speech processors in our brain lack that flexibility.

When I think of the idea of "flying blind" - letting "Self 2" take over - it calls to mind ideas like trust, faith, confidence, submission, letting go and courage.

On the other hand, I find it strange and frustrating that we humans are seemingly not allowed to be fully present when we do our best work. Poor old Self 1 has to largely sit on the sidelines while Self 2 rides to glory.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:18 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

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On the other hand, I find it strange and frustrating that we humans are seemingly not allowed to be fully present when we do our best work. Poor old Self 1 has to largely sit on the sidelines while Self 2 rides to glory.
This is why I love the Tao. And I suppose to really be switched on you need to switch off as it were. Everything appears to be contradictory. Humans are the most wonderful beings that are simultaneously the very best and the very worst thing to ourselves and or surroundings.

But I think the argument goes that we are completely present when we do our best work...it's just not necessarily how we experience our day to day lives. But I believe you always get what you want, but never how you expect it, and rarely in the form that you thought you wanted it in.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:36 PM
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But I think the argument goes that we are completely present when we do our best work...it's just not necessarily how we experience our day to day lives.
Guess it depends on how you define "completely present". When I'm in the flow I play things that, for the life of me, I can't remember afterwards unless it's recorded. Of course it's possible that I've never been completely present ... if I'd never experienced it I wouldn't know, would I? :)
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Was just thinking after replying to the alcohol thread how the "mind" threads are never all that popular. I get the impression that people avoid heady subjects for exactly the fear of over-activating the conscious mind and having it interfere with the unconscious one.

In fact, I suspect much of our lives is spent running away from directly facing our mental circumstances for fear of messing through overthinking. Yet if we rationally face our circumstances instead of hiding behind the unconscious mind's "apron strings" (usually with distractions like TV to keep the conscious mind away) there is nothing to fear. Thoughts are harmless if you don't take them to heart and just look at them dispassionately as objects of consciousness.

Just thinking aloud again ...
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:50 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

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Thoughts are harmless if you don't take them to heart and just look at them dispassionately as objects of consciousness.

Just thinking aloud again ...
There's the rub, I believe. Many people can't seem to help taking them to heart, and can't separate the thought from their identity. You know - I had an evil thought, so I must be evil.

I'm not sure if that is a skill everyone can learn despite being difficult, or if some are simply incapable.
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

All I can say about the mind is that it, like land, sea and space, is a frontier, and like space and sea, it is mostly uncharted. You can see how much we've ventured into outer space. We don't know even half of what the government knows about outer space. I believe the same things are true about the human mind. we are just barely tapping into its regions (I guess that's the right word). There is so much yet to discover and I hope we allow ourselves enough time to evolve enough to explore it deeper before we destroy ourselves completely. There are other things like asteroids that can destroy us, but that stuff is beyond our control at the moment unless we collectively decide that we are one race, the human race, and we need to collectively work together. If we can figure out how to quit destroying ourselves or keep from destroying ourselves, we can work together and focus our energy on trying to keep this planet from destroying us, or external forces from outer space from destroying us. This is all just brainstorming ideas though. Not much you can do about a polar shift. It's just gonna happen when it does. The sun does it all the time.

Sorry, my main point is that the mind is a frontier.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

this is a GREAT post ! i have been into Hal Galper's improv & performance concepts for about a year now. this stuff will absolutely change your playing in incredibly profound ways. you can literally watch "the instrument is an illusion" on youtube, run down to the woodshed & hear the results just goofin. i continue to work this stuff & "stay in the zone" when i play w/ my internal dialog as dormant as possible. i am working on memorizing tunes more for reading gigs as this helps the process. reading gigs are an odd mix of logical / intuitive, something i am always struggling with.

anyhow, Vinnie has been talking about this concept for years & his 2012 quote from MD sums it up nice. "thought is the enemy of flow" (love this!). i think of intuitive playing like an app running in the background on a iPhone set to "do not disturb". :-D

"...it's called flow. Our ability to control things and analyze things is in direct opposition to a mantra that I have: Thought is the enemy of flow. People ask me, “What do you think about when you’re playing?” The answer is basically nothing. Thought happens in a completely different way out of flow. It’s contemplative and analytical and problem solving. In flow, it’s completely different. It’s like a real-time program running in the background that doesn't interfere with what’s going on. The ability to adapt in a given moment is beyond the scope of another type of focused thought process.” -- Vinnie Colaiuta (from Modern Drummer, Jan 2012)
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Around 4m55s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8#t=4m55s, Hal Galper talks about how the unconscious mind - or as he calls it, "the intuitive level" - is so much faster than our conscious mind.

Thing is, I always hear that when playing music (or anything) the conscious mind needs to be suppressed in order to get into the zone. Yet the conscious mind is an attribute that's given humans dominance over the earth and is obviously incredibly useful. Just not when you are trying to perform at your best. The best foot we put forward always seems to be that "shadow self" - that's when you're "being yourself" ... when you are less aware of what you're doing. We seem to be designed to fly blind.

Love that McGurk Effect. Amazing how you can't adjust to it.
I can't access the link from work, but I think this is probably what we mean when we talk about "overthinking" something. That's the conscious mind f***ing up the subconscious mind. When the term "choking" is applied to someone botching up a performance in a pressure situation, I think it's the same thing. Learning NOT to let that happen is important to success, I think.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:59 PM
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There's the rub, I believe. Many people can't seem to help taking them to heart, and can't separate the thought from their identity. You know - I had an evil thought, so I must be evil.

I'm not sure if that is a skill everyone can learn despite being difficult, or if some are simply incapable.
I imagine people's ability to control their response to their thoughts would follow a Bell Curve.

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All I can say about the mind is that it, like land, sea and space, is a frontier, and like space and sea, it is mostly uncharted. You can see how much we've ventured into outer space. We don't know even half of what the government knows about outer space. I believe the same things are true about the human mind. we are just barely tapping into its regions (I guess that's the right word).
Yes, inner space.

While I love rationality and people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, I'd like to see them talk more about the transformational potentials of the mind and the feats and blunders we can create with the placebo effect, psychosomatic illness, hypnosis and the trance states achieved by tribal people.

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"...it's called flow. Our ability to control things and analyze things is in direct opposition to a mantra that I have: Thought is the enemy of flow.

People ask me, “What do you think about when you’re playing?” The answer is basically nothing. Thought happens in a completely different way out of flow. It’s contemplative and analytical and problem solving. In flow, it’s completely different. It’s like a real-time program running in the background that doesn't interfere with what’s going on.

The ability to adapt in a given moment is beyond the scope of another type of focused thought process. -- Vinnie Colaiuta (from Modern Drummer, Jan 2012)
Great quote! Seems that Vinnie's "beyond the scope" = Hal Galper's "not fast enough".

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... I think this is probably what we mean when we talk about "overthinking" something. That's the conscious mind f***ing up the subconscious mind. When the term "choking" is applied to someone botching up a performance in a pressure situation, I think it's the same thing. Learning NOT to let that happen is important to success, I think.
Yes - very much relates to the Vinnie quote.

The conscious mind is an amazing machine to have at our disposal but the bloody manufacturer hid the off switch (it's hard to find reliable Creators these days *sigh*). But we need to turn it off when we perform because real time activity like performance is a job for the unconscious mind / Self 2 / Shadow Self etc. The past and future belong to the conscious and the present belongs to the unconscious.

I would love to be able to switch off at will. To have the faith that I could just let go and it would all just happen thanks to my practice and "muscle memory", the pull of the music around me and my natural expression. But I feel compelled to steer - to get my greasy little hands into the works. Tinker tinker tinker. It's as though I think I'll go off the rails without supervision. So I screw myself up through trying to supervise myself to avoid screwing up. How screwed up is that? lol It's crazy! I'm starting to sound like Larry(ace)! kgveb eariv pHTB TTB b b igsru ghriuh
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:22 PM
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While I love rationality and people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins
I luv how the Anti theists carry their banner of rationality like a badge of honor. I would have to disagree as to the rationality of their thinking, but that's another discussion for another thread that probably doesn't belong on this website.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:52 PM
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I luv how the Anti theists carry their banner of rationality like a badge of honor. I would have to disagree as to the rationality of their thinking, but that's another discussion for another thread that probably doesn't belong on this website.
Bon, their anti religion advocacy is not of great interest to me.

Just that they are high geniuses with 100x times the knowledge I have and I find their talks and writing about their specialities informative and fascinating, eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw
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Old 08-27-2013, 04:17 PM
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Bon, their anti religion advocacy is not of great interest to me.

Just that they are high geniuses with 100x times the knowledge I have and I find their talks and writing about their specialities informative and fascinating, eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw
I don't think there's a downside to rationality. We all have a right to our opinions, but they're not all equal. Sometimes, you're confronted with someone who's just much smarter than you, and then you got to bow down to that sh**.
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:51 PM
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...a MTB ride...alternate between "Holy carp, that uphill was hard...I think I'm gonna puke!" to "Ooooohhh....that drop off...I think I'm gonna die!"
Ah, that sounds so familiar. Good to know I’m not the only MTBing drummer. Let’s build them kick drum muscles!
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

Peter Watts wrote a brilliant work of science fiction that’s all about the unconscious mind and how almost everything everybody does is below the level of consciousness.

Of course, that’s not the plot. The story is about first contact (with the weirdest aliens you’ve never imagined), but he’s constantly having the characters discuss what may or may not be consciously controlled.

Absolutely riveting reading if you’re into understanding the stuff we’re chatting about in this thread.

http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:30 PM
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I'd love to get some Functional Magnetic Resonance Imagery of my brain while im drumming...

...I wonder about the role of selective neural disinhibition(attention) and whether that fovia of supression associated with attention becomes diffuse at times where we transition out of concious control dominated playing.

Anyone working on a psych or medical grad degree considering this?
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

I'm not ignoring your thread Grea, I just don't seem to have the time to get to it, but I will! Cause it's great stuff. Mindbending even.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

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I don't think there's a downside to rationality. We all have a right to our opinions, but they're not all equal. Sometimes, you're confronted with someone who's just much smarter than you, and then you got to bow down to that sh**.
Agreed. They are smarter than anyone I know (and I play in a band with three academics and a lunatic), so I like to hear what they have to say.

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Peter Watts wrote a brilliant work of science fiction that’s all about the unconscious mind and how almost everything everybody does is below the level of consciousness.
http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)
Thanks Anduin - psych stuff and fantasy/sci fi - my sweet spot!

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...I wonder about the role of selective neural disinhibition (attention) and whether that fovia of supression associated with attention becomes diffuse at times where we transition out of concious control dominated playing.

Anyone working on a psych or medical grad degree considering this?
From experience, on a good day I'm in a flow state with regular interruptions from the conscious mind - sometimes useful, sometimes BS.

At last Last Sunday's gig I caught myself looking out the window as I played (nice day, tree-lined suburban scenery). Meanwhile I wasn't playing inappropriately. When I "came out of it" only our bassist was looking at me. What do do you when caught napping? Smile and reconnect. All these dynamics going on in a split second ... no doubt more.

Meanwhile in that moment at no stage was I focusing on ... tempo, volume, tone production, acoustics, the mix, staying loose, stroke, grip, posture, burying the beater, internal dynamics, supporting the vocalist, locking in with the bass, accenting with the piano, rudiments, looking up at the other players, looking at the audience, putting on a show, stick tricks, picking out one audience member, boogying or rocking out or cruising, adding drama, adding motifs, taking it down, burning, aiming for a Zen state, the Moeller, coordination, the drum kit, heads, pedals, sticks, the inconsistency of Zildjians etc, clarity, keeping up with the tune, reading, transcriptions, faithful cover versions, overplaying, underplaying, staying on the grid, shading, ghosting, rimshots, tuning, stroke placement, accents, arranging, psychic connections, level of complexity or technical advancement, what any drummers in the audience might think ... I could go on ...

The point is I wasn't worrying about ANY of that stuff, though maybe unconsciously. In hindsight, I should have paid more attention to the bassist at the time :)

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I'm not ignoring your thread Grea, I just don't seem to have the time to get to it, but I will! Cause it's great stuff. Mindbending even.
No drama, Lar. I sometimes feel obliged to say something on threads where I would have otherwise lurked, because I've commented on so many threads that if I don't comment threads related to my interests then it looks like I'm not supporting the OP. The social dynamics and etiquettes of online interaction are in their infancy.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: Our unconscious mind

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Bon, their anti religion advocacy is not of great interest to me.

Just that they are high geniuses with 100x times the knowledge I have and I find their talks and writing about their specialities informative and fascinating, eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw
That's cool. I've gotten away from that scene on the net. I've debated many an atheist in the past, but I stay away from debating now. It's no use, and it's meaningless for the most part.

That was an interesting lecture. I actually watched the whole thing. It is amazing how much more compelling the universe is when there are so many knowledgeable people out there discovering the mysteries of life.

But my main interests lie in human behavior now. I take measures to take care of my own mind and keep it as tidy as I can because a mind can be cluttered up with lots of junk too. I speak simply, but there is a lot that I can't explain in simple words. I think maybe developing certain positive behavioral traits may be like keeping the subconscious tidy so that you are not compelled subconsciously to act on behavior that is counter-productive to realizing a developmental evolution within oneself.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:04 AM
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That's cool. I've gotten away from that scene on the net. I've debated many an atheist in the past, but I stay away from debating now. It's no use, and it's meaningless for the most part.
Ditto. I am agnostic. Even if you accept the string theory multiverse, it doesn't explain the start of the multiverse. I think the current thinking is that it might have all started with a fluctuation in a quantum vacuum, ie. absolutely nothing except potentials.

Weird thing to imagine nothing because it conjured up visions of empty space - except that space is something. Absolutely nothing is as unimaginable as infinity. What a brain bender!

So none of us know enough to believe anything, although there are old myths that seem implausible, eg. http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...gods_index.htm ... unless we engage in useful self-deception so as to access useful placebo effects (mind over matter through concentrated focus that can become available with faith because it reduces doubts and distractions). It can also be helpful socially.

The fact is that we have mind over matter phenomena that we don't really understand but we can still access and use without yet knowing how they work and it seems that some religious techniques provide access to those things.

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I take measures to take care of my own mind and keep it as tidy as I can because a mind can be cluttered up with lots of junk too. I speak simply, but there is a lot that I can't explain in simple words. I think maybe developing certain positive behavioral traits may be like keeping the subconscious tidy so that you are not compelled subconsciously to act on behavior that is counter-productive to realizing a developmental evolution within oneself.
Good for you! I wish. My brain is a mess - old unwashed knickers, socks and t-shirts thrown over my memories, rotting apple cores fouling up my perception, splattered bugs hard dried onto the windshield of my mind etc.

I did have a interesting peak experience earlier this year after a period of trying to eliminate words from my thoughts. At the time I'd noticed that my thoughts seemed to all be word-based - not at all visual - just words and the sound of the words in my mind. So I did the meditation technique of gently putting aside any words that popped into my mind to see if I could have (or even notice) wordless thoughts happening in their stead. Felt pretty nice - should get back to that.
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:07 PM
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Meanwhile in that moment at no stage was I focusing on ... tempo, volume, tone production, acoustics, the mix, staying loose, stroke, grip, posture, burying the beater, internal dynamics, supporting the vocalist, locking in with the bass, accenting with the piano, rudiments, looking up at the other players, looking at the audience, putting on a show, stick tricks, picking out one audience member, boogying or rocking out or cruising, adding drama, adding motifs, taking it down, burning, aiming for a Zen state, the Moeller, coordination, the drum kit, heads, pedals, sticks, the inconsistency of Zildjians etc, clarity, keeping up with the tune, reading, transcriptions, faithful cover versions, overplaying, underplaying, staying on the grid, shading, ghosting, rimshots, tuning, stroke placement, accents, arranging, psychic connections, level of complexity or technical advancement, what any drummers in the audience might think ... I could go on ...

.
This really made my morning. I love how wacky you can be at times Grea lol.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:07 PM
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man what a great thread. non-drumming but makes you play better. Anon La Ply -- love this "Great quote! Seems that Vinnie's "beyond the scope" = Hal Galper's "not fast enough". "

i am connecting the dots this AM. check this life-hacker article i saw & how it relates to intuitive playing.

"Over the course of my life, I’ve come to believe that the best decision maker is your gut/natural instinct. How many times have you disregarded your gut instinct on a decision, only to regret it later? I’ve done this more times than I care to admit. For many years now, I’ve been obsessed with finding a way to make gut decisions at will. "

+ http://lifehacker.com/follow-your-gu...sim-1214011055

this actually makes a lot of sense to me esp w/ my research into Galper's performance psychology & techniques. if your intuition is 20,000 times faster than logic AND intuition is built from a lifetime of training & experience THEN it would make sense that "going w/ your gut" vs. logic is always best. wow, AH_HA moment for me.

RE the thread below on high geniuses / intellectuals...Galper mentions this & says they have a very tough time improving / making good musical decisions as they are thinking too much & trying to use logic in the moment of performance (too slow). in one of the videos he says "cant you play dumb?" to a guy who is playing real stiff. i use this w/ my students in some scenarios "play dumb or drunk (a metaphor of course)".
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:03 AM
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This really made my morning. I love how wacky you can be at times Grea lol.
I reckon this one 2 days ago was waaay wackier :)

"I would love to be able to switch off at will. To have the faith that I could just let go and it would all just happen thanks to my practice and "muscle memory", the pull of the music around me and my natural expression. But I feel compelled to steer - to get my greasy little hands into the works. Tinker tinker tinker. It's as though I think I'll go off the rails without supervision. So I screw myself up through trying to supervise myself to avoid screwing up. How screwed up is that? lol It's crazy! I'm starting to sound like Larry(ace)! kgveb eariv pHTB TTB b b igsru ghriuh"

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check this life-hacker article i saw & how it relates to intuitive playing.

"Over the course of my life, I’ve come to believe that the best decision maker is your gut/natural instinct. How many times have you disregarded your gut instinct on a decision, only to regret it later? I’ve done this more times than I care to admit. For many years now, I’ve been obsessed with finding a way to make gut decisions at will. "

+ http://lifehacker.com/follow-your-gu...sim-1214011055
Glad you could find a practical approach to this, GG! I'll give it a try. Also the playing dumb or "drunk" loosening up trick.

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if your intuition is 20,000 times faster than logic AND intuition is built from a lifetime of training & experience THEN it would make sense that "going w/ your gut" vs. logic is always best. wow, AH_HA moment for me.
I sometimes think of my subconscious as "the animal in me" or "my animal side". On the other hand it's also the side of me that seems to do the bulk of the home maintenance and child raising duties and makes all the important decisions flying under the radar ... meanwhile the "human" or "conscious" side calls the shots and hogs all the glory ☯

Kidding aside, this is where I get confused, and maybe a lot of people are - how much to use the conscious and mind and what for? We have this powerful machinery that we're a little afraid of, which is why many people avoid D&M chats like this. "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

Meanwhile, we are always teaching each other how to switch off our conscious minds to better utilise our unconscious mind - music, dance, public speaking, meditation, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance etc.

Yet here is a picture of an absolute master of utilising his or her unconscious mind and, with all due respect, it's not a state I aspire to (yet)

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Old 09-01-2013, 05:52 AM
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A fascinating documentary on the yogis of Tibet. The things that people can train themselves to do is amazing. One laboratory tested example is how they can generate heat using their mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DctQTDm-HdU

If you have a spare hour ...
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:32 AM
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Also extraordinary to anyone still paying attention ...
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:32 AM
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Also extraordinary to anyone still paying attention ...
Yikes. She better take her vitamins.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:27 AM
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I sometimes think of my subconscious as "the animal in me" or "my animal side". On the other hand it's also the side of me that seems to do the bulk of the home maintenance and child raising duties and makes all the important decisions flying under the radar ... meanwhile the "human" or "conscious" side calls the shots and hogs all the glory ☯
I'd like to think that I take every single decisions in my life consciously or by obligations... how the subconscious can adjust to new situations you never experienced? it has already subconsciously lived these moments?

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Yet here is a picture of an absolute master of utilising his or her unconscious mind and, with all due respect, it's not a state I aspire to (yet)

What about cockcroaches? :-)
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:27 AM
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Also extraordinary to anyone still paying attention ...
Wonder how many interested guys she'll get after... say... #6.... yikes...
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:13 PM
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Also extraordinary to anyone still paying attention ...
Oh great. Another Polack trying to make the rest of us look bad. I can hear the jokes already....
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