DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Off Topic Lounge

Off Topic Lounge All Discussions Not Related To Drumming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #81  
Old 08-09-2013, 09:16 PM
Reggae_Mangle's Avatar
Reggae_Mangle Reggae_Mangle is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Away in India
Posts: 519
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Everything does happen for a reason, but that reason does not have to be "otherworldly", or because there is something behind it. Its all cause and effect.

Example: You buy new tires for your car. On the way home you get a flat tire. Was it meant to be? Is some deity having a bad day and wanting to share it with you? NO. You ran over a nail. It fell out of the back of a construction truck. The truck hit a bump in the road (the same one you hit right before your tire went flat), and the nail flew from the bed and landed on the road. I could back this example 100 days into the past because every effect has a cause. Nothing happens with no explanation.

How about the butterfly effect? Sort of like a butterfly fluttering in China results in mass floods in Texas. Cause and effect on a scale that could only be attributed to cosmic confluence.

The universe has an attitude.
__________________
"... As war machine, crushes their balls, God have mercy..."
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 08-09-2013, 10:25 PM
MrInsanePolack's Avatar
MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 1,470
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Everyday!
I have something called squirrel theory - squirrels just go about gathering their nuts. day in, day out. Nothing seems to bother them, except crossing a road or a natural bird of prey, of which they are oblivious. No destiny there - cause and effect. But they seem quite content (who knows maybe they are starving).

Humans do not ascribe to squirrel theory. They have to pick everything apart. There is an upside to that, as we are possibly the most adaptable species ever. But it may be only human ego to think that. In paleontology the billion year rock record shows many species rise to great success, to even dominate......and then fall. Tens of examples.
Squirrels are very crafty, and they do learn. I've spent much much time watching, stalking, and hunting squirrel. But yes it does seem to be all cause and effect based around food, mating, nest building, and survival.

I'm afraid we will be one of those examples sooner than we think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
I would say that animals share many of the issues we have. Put yourself in their paws for a moment. Think of all the fears you had as a child because of your limited understanding of cause and effect, eg. animals and small children are afraid of the thunder - they sense the power but don't realise it's harmless.

We hear birds singing and the chances are that it's a bird telling another bird to f* off. We say "Isn't that beautiful?".
I can't relate to the thunder, I was never scared of it and my 3 dogs aren't either, but we live in tornado alley so big storms are pretty regular here. I was terrified of fire as a small kid after watching a house burn down. It wasn't the fire itself that scared me, but the thought of my house burning down. Fear of the unknown. Not the cause or effect, but the ending result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggae_Mangle View Post
How about the butterfly effect? Sort of like a butterfly fluttering in China results in mass floods in Texas. Cause and effect on a scale that could only be attributed to cosmic confluence.

The universe has an attitude.
The butterfly effect is more of a domino effect than anything. The butterfly flaps its wings in China. The ripple caused by the flapping creates turbulence that effects the atmospheric conditions in its specific local. The conditions then change...yadda yadda yadda...a flood in Texas. This is a slippery slope and is an unacceptable reason for accepting something as factual in an argument. Just because that butterfly flaps its wings, in no way does it absolutely mean that there will be a flood in Texas. It makes for cool movies though.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 08-09-2013, 10:33 PM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Kent, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,363
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Right.

I'm not religious, I don't think things 'happen for a reason' or any other such nonsense. Sorry guys, I just don't buy it.

The existence of reality as we see it is the consequences of millions of small incidents, all happening by chance within a few defined rules that we call 'physics'. Sometimes the effects are macroscopic (Classical Physics) and sometimes they are microscopic and counter-intuitive (Quantum Physics).

To say that there is a 'plan' in place by observation of two seemingly-unrelated events affecting each other is - simply - wrong. The history of evolution (for instance) is made up of a series of 'mistakes', dead-ends, inefficiencies, chance mutations and adjustments to profound alterations in environment yet we're here with millions of other species and in many cases are traceable back to millions of years ago. If anybody tries to use a teleological argument against evolution you can, quite frankly, go home and then read about the evolutionary trace of the human eye before you even consider using that as a tired, clichéd example.

In fact, all teleological arguments can sod off. If you need to see some plan in everything, so be it but there's no evidence of such a plan and the onus of truth is upon those making the supposition.

Also, read about the 'Babel Fish' paradox. It's hilarious. This thread has been irritating me for days and I'm not going to sugar-coat my response, as uncompromising as it is.
__________________
Bring Me Coffee or Tea
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 08-10-2013, 02:55 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Duncan, surely the great mysteries are worthy of a whole lot more investigation than being passed off as "chance events"?

Not all "chance events" are equal. Some "take" and some don't. The universe and the earth have tendencies. They tend to produce life - and humans. Our existence is proof of that fact.

Imagine the first replicating cell. Was that a truly random event or was there something underneath - an underpinning fabric of reality based in other dimensions - that was trying to replicate? That was driving towards replication? Towards life?

After all, having replicated once, why would the cell do it again? To me, the start of life seems dynamically like the Big Bang - something new springing forth from a wellspring of potential energy. The urge to replicate and survive is surely echoed throughout all life.

Why would a creature with human capacities appear? Human mental abilities appear to be overkill in evolutionary terms. Obviously there's an evolutionary arms race with human brains - smart people are today's alphas. Rationalist attitudes say that our search for meaning and spiritual tendencies are by-products of the mental gear we inherited through natural selection - mere curios and artefacts rather than reflections of our deeper nature.

Maybe so, but that's surely not certain.

Science and spirituality routinely talk at cross purposes. Religion and spirituality is certainly full of mythology, but they are practical tools when working with subjective reality. Great power and comfort comes from faith, belief, confidence, creative imagination, placebo effects, hypnosis, etc. We don't understand the whys or hows of mind-over-matter, but we instinctively know how to use it - if our rational minds don't get in the way.

Why wait for science to catch up when you can access our mental capacities now via mysticism? Who cares if something is based on mythology or science if it works? Whatever methods we use only need last a lifetime, not pass the test of eternal verities.

Having said that, I do not believe religion has any place in public policy, other than the freedom of people to hold their own beliefs. Spirituality's value is in the subjective realm and it will continue to be useful until science catches up and enables us to control those aspects of mind.

One day we won't need spirituality because we will always be capable of peak performance and always be in the zone, we will be able to routinely and fully unlock our skills and potentials and we will be capable of mentally controlling and regulating illness and pain and we will be in a contant state of bliss /peak experience. Until then, we don't have the smarts because we haven't scientifically cracked the code, but we can still use our instinctive equipment.

To quote the famous brilliant Donald Rumsfeld poem:

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

Sorry about straying from "destiny", but Duncan and I are good at going offtopic :)
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 08-10-2013, 03:58 AM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,627
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Why would a creature with human capacities appear? Human mental abilities appear to be overkill in evolutionary terms. Obviously there's an evolutionary arms race with human brains - smart people are today's alphas. Rationalist attitudes say that our search for meaning and spiritual tendencies are by-products of the mental gear we inherited through natural selection - mere curios and artefacts rather than reflections of our deeper nature.
I can't help but wonder if there aren't life forms so much more advanced than us that we don't even realize they exist, because we either don't have the senses to perceive them or they're entwined with things we consider "laws of the universe."

For instance, if you step on an ant, it doesn't know you exist. It doesn't even know it exists. But some force came in and ended its existence. What if things that happen to us, that we cannot perceive a reason for, are things being manipulated by a higher life form?

Someone pass the weed....
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 08-10-2013, 04:06 AM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Kent, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,363
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Grea, I like you an awful lot but I'm going to have to disagree.

My look at reality is cold and stark. I see no spirituality, I see nothing but chance events. I see no purpose or meaning and no evidence to demonstrate to the contrary. I hear and see beautiful things and accept that there are plenty of things that humanity just doesn't know about life, the Universe and everything.

I don't believe in destiny. I don't really believe anything. I may as well be a nihilist apart from the a priori harshness of the Cogito. Human mental abilities appear from chance.

The abyss stares back.

Meanwhile, I listen to Beethoven.
__________________
Bring Me Coffee or Tea
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 08-10-2013, 06:08 AM
MrInsanePolack's Avatar
MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 1,470
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Not all "chance events" are equal. Some "take" and some don't. The universe and the earth have tendencies. They tend to produce life - and humans. Our existence is proof of that fact.

Imagine the first replicating cell. Was that a truly random event or was there something underneath - an underpinning fabric of reality based in other dimensions - that was trying to replicate? That was driving towards replication? Towards life?
Look up the Miller-Urey experiment and Panspermia. The conditions for life had to exist before life itself. If life is such a constant in the universe, how come we haven't found any anywhere else, even locally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
After all, having replicated once, why would the cell do it again? To me, the start of life seems dynamically like the Big Bang - something new springing forth from a wellspring of potential energy. The urge to replicate and survive is surely echoed throughout all life.
That is what life does, plain and simple. Without the urge to survive and replicate, there would be no life. This is constant for everything, including the universe. Galaxies, suns, planets, nebula, etc. all are born and will eventually die, resulting in something else. Surely our current universe isn't the first, and it certainly wont be the last. Remember energy cannot be created nor destroyed, just repurposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Why would a creature with human capacities appear? Human mental abilities appear to be overkill in evolutionary terms. Obviously there's an evolutionary arms race with human brains - smart people are today's alphas. Rationalist attitudes say that our search for meaning and spiritual tendencies are by-products of the mental gear we inherited through natural selection - mere curios and artefacts rather than reflections of our deeper nature.
Why would a creature of any form or intelligence appear? To think we are special in a world full of life is rather selfish in my views. Just because we humans are more aware does not make us any better than, say, a cockroach. They have been here a whole lot longer than we have, will be here longer, and can evolve and adapt at will. Natural selection will favor the roach over the human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Why wait for science to catch up when you can access our mental capacities now via mysticism? Who cares if something is based on mythology or science if it works? Whatever methods we use only need last a lifetime, not pass the test of eternal verities.
Because some of us want answers, not an uneducated guess as to why things work like they do. I can accept that things work and we don't know why, but cannot accept a screwball idea to fill the void until the correct answer is revealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Spirituality's value is in the subjective realm and it will continue to be useful until science catches up and enables us to control those aspects of mind.
So then why do we continue to lie to ourselves until science catches up? Again, if something works but you don't know why, that's okay. Would you rather discover the correct answer and be amazed at it once it gets here, or be disappointed in yourself for believing in something that wasn't true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
One day we won't need spirituality because we will always be capable of peak performance and always be in the zone, we will be able to routinely and fully unlock our skills and potentials and we will be capable of mentally controlling and regulating illness and pain and we will be in a contant state of bliss /peak experience. Until then, we don't have the smarts because we haven't scientifically cracked the code, but we can still use our instinctive equipment.
So if we don't destroy ourselves first, we will all eventually become god-like? Seriously, no matter how hard I try, the pain in my knee just wont go away, and all the mental regulation in the world wont keep gravity and friction from destroying it a little more each time I move it.

In a nutshell, we aren't special. We walk around everyday fooling ourselves and each other, thinking we are more than we really are, and that the ultimate goal is somewhere beyond our existence. In reality, the ultimate goal is to just survive.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 08-10-2013, 06:11 AM
Midnite Zephyr's Avatar
Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Surf City, CA
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Right.

I'm not religious, I don't think things 'happen for a reason' or any other such nonsense. Sorry guys, I just don't buy it.

In fact, all teleological arguments can sod off. If you need to see some plan in everything, so be it but there's no evidence of such a plan and the onus of truth is upon those making the supposition.
That in and of itself is an expression of freewill, and as far as our God is concerned, as far as I understand, it is your right. You have decided. I still remain uncertain. I cannot say for certain one way or the other, but either way, hell or no hell...whatever. I still like the philosophy that a certain deity gave us with his words.
__________________
5A Sticks--Coated Heads--Acoustic Drums--Cast Bronze Cymbals--Heavy-Duty Hardware
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 08-10-2013, 06:46 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
I can't help but wonder if there aren't life forms so much more advanced than us that we don't even realize they exist, because we either don't have the senses to perceive them or they're entwined with things we consider "laws of the universe."

For instance, if you step on an ant, it doesn't know you exist. It doesn't even know it exists. But some force came in and ended its existence. What if things that happen to us, that we cannot perceive a reason for, are things being manipulated by a higher life form?

Someone pass the weed....
Funny thing that we associate deep thought with being wasted :) It's as though sensible, right-thinking people with correct priorities don't waste time with difficult trivia like understanding the nature of reality and the extent of delusionality built into our cultural norms.

I think ants would know they exist, in a similar way as we know we exist when we are infants. There's no existential rumination, of course, but ants certainly know enough of their own existence to recognise danger to themselves and battle like heck to survive - just as we do. They can also differentiate between their nest mates and "foreigners".

How we would come across to ants ... in terms of scale, maybe like an earthquake, twister or cyclone. I've done some cartoons on this topic:





Hmm, this is a more common theme in my toons than I realised ...






Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
I see no purpose or meaning and no evidence to demonstrate to the contrary. I hear and see beautiful things ...
If nothing you have come across has provided you with evidence of meaning, what would a world look like with apparent evidence of meaning?

It reminds me of a comment quoted by Richard Dawkins, where a scientist asked a friend:

"Why do you suppose it was natural for man to assume the sun went around the Earth rather than the Earth was rotating?"

His friend replied, "Obviously it just looks as though the sun is going around the Earth".

Lichtenstein replied, "Well, what would it look like if it had looked as though the Earth was rotating?"

It's a trippy thought ... almost as trippy as wondering what a life with hard, measurable evidence of meaning would be like ...
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:27 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Look up the Miller-Urey experiment and Panspermia.
Even with Panspermia, you still need that first replication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
The conditions for life had to exist before life itself. If life is such a constant in the universe, how come we haven't found any anywhere else, even locally?
Haha - got me there. Obviously, I don't know any more than anyone else and life is so far only found on Earth, but its existence cannot be denied! I don't think it's any more of a fluke than the fact that stars and planets form. They only form if conditions are right too.

Personally, if I was a betting gal I'd put money on us discovering microscopic life in the water tables under the Martian surface. As 8 said, there could also be forms of life out there that we are unable to recognise or detect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Why would a creature of any form or intelligence appear? To think we are special in a world full of life is rather selfish in my views. Just because we humans are more aware does not make us any better than, say, a cockroach. They have been here a whole lot longer than we have, will be here longer, and can evolve and adapt at will. Natural selection will favor the roach over the human.
Everyone on this forum plays music. No cockroaches play music. Do you need more?

Today's computers are better than those developed in the 1960s. In the same way we are better than cockroaches.

When it comes down to species survival, bacteria will kick cockroaches' sorry spiky asses (apart from the fine specimen in my avatar). They are the most resilient and successful creatures as a group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
I can accept that things work and we don't know why, but cannot accept a screwball idea to fill the void until the correct answer is revealed.
That's why I reject pure rationalism, which is another screwball idea that pretends to know. Rationalism must be tempered by acknowledgement of the mysteries rather than to brush them under the carpet because they are inconvenient. That's as bad as religion ignoring inconvenient scientific observation, eg. evolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
So then why do we continue to lie to ourselves until science catches up? Again, if something works but you don't know why, that's okay. Would you rather discover the correct answer and be amazed at it once it gets here, or be disappointed in yourself for believing in something that wasn't true?
I think you need some specific examples so you can trust me a bit more ... really, I am not a mad religious voodoo child, Mr IP.

Let's take the lie of optimism in sports. Sportspeople have faith that they will win every game, even when the evidence is against them. But they need that attitude to perform at their peak. How about the lie of the placebo effect? We use this lie constantly - it is an essential part of drug testing. Or should we wait until we understand it better?

Take another example - religiosity amongst underprivileged, uneducated people. Often religion is their only comfort in unimaginably difficult lives. We can't tell these people to wait until we have the solutions to rational manipulation of brain dynamics to produce dopamine - they need their salve now. Religion fills the void (despite its many odious aspects). Humans have a lot of evolving to do and in the interim we will devise bandaid solutions to keep us going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
So if we don't destroy ourselves first, we will all eventually become god-like? Seriously, no matter how hard I try, the pain in my knee just wont go away, and all the mental regulation in the world wont keep gravity and friction from destroying it a little more each time I move it.
I think we will become more true to ourselves, more in control, less subject to blundering, which is the trend so far.

Humans have achieved great amounts of control of ourselves and environment as compared with other animals, but nowhere near our potential. We go to rehab, diet, take nicotine substitutes, have misunderstandings, temper tantrums, forget things, go into denial, etc etc - endless examples of us not being in control.

As time goes on, those of us who are safe from the coming mass population correction will gain greater mastery through our ever closer link with machines. And I think that will be special ...
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:43 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,131
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Ants know they exist.
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 08-10-2013, 09:19 AM
MrInsanePolack's Avatar
MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 1,470
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Even with Panspermia, you still need that first replication.
That's why I mentioned the Miller-Urey experiment. They were able to create amino acids in a lab using only water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, and electricity. It was to simulate the earths atmospheric conditions when earth was still young and lifeless. As we know, amino acids are essential for life. Panspermia just adds more fuel to the fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Haha - got me there. Obviously, I don't know any more than anyone else and life is so far only found on Earth, but its existence cannot be denied! I don't think it's any more of a fluke than the fact that stars and planets form. They only form if conditions are right too.

Personally, if I was a betting gal I'd put money on us discovering microscopic life in the water tables under the Martian surface. As 8 said, there could also be forms of life out there that we are unable to recognise or detect.
Are you familiar with the Drake equation?

Chances are if there is life outside our solar system we will never know. But if inside our solar system it exists, I would either go the Mars route or possibly Europa.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Everyone on this forum plays music. No cockroaches play music. Do you need more?

Today's computers are better than those developed in the 1960s. In the same way we are better than cockroaches.

When it comes down to species survival, bacteria will kick cockroaches' sorry spiky asses (apart from the fine specimen in my avatar). They are the most resilient and successful creatures as a group.
Cockroaches might not play music, but they can develop immunities to chemicals and pestacides as required. They also learn when they need to re-colonize due to irate humans! By no means are they dumb. But they have also had more time to evolve than we have.

I was wondering what that was in your avatar. I thought maybe it was a wasp or hornet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Let's take the lie of optimism in sports. Sportspeople have faith that they will win every game, even when the evidence is against them. But they need that attitude to perform at their peak. How about the lie of the placebo effect? We use this lie constantly - it is an essential part of drug testing. Or should we wait until we understand it better?

Take another example - religiosity amongst underprivileged, uneducated people. Often religion is their only comfort in unimaginably difficult lives. We can't tell these people to wait until we have the solutions to rational manipulation of brain dynamics to produce dopamine - they need their salve now. Religion fills the void (despite its many odious aspects). Humans have a lot of evolving to do and in the interim we will devise bandaid solutions to keep us going.
I know nothing of sports other than I like watching it, but wouldn't it be a bit pathetic if the coach said "You can't win this game. So lets go out there and try not to suck too badly!"

I would say the placebo effect is no different than a psychosomatic response, except its a positive reaction instead of a negative one. No lie required, just insert an idea.

I have no comment about the religious. They have the freedom to believe what they want, no matter their social status. I just wish that all the ones I run into knew how to have an objective discussion without getting mad or telling me I'm going to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
I think we will become more true to ourselves, more in control, less subject to blundering, which is the trend so far.
I sure hope so. Perhaps you have a better outlook on modern society than I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
As time goes on, those of us who are safe from the coming mass population correction will gain greater mastery through our ever closer link with machines. And I think that will be special ...
Mass Population Correction. I like that. If it comes in my lifetime, the machine I will probably form a lifetime bond with will surely have a trigger!


If my destiny was predetermined, and my free will is not mine and it really isn't free, whomever decided my fate was incredibly drunk at the time.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 08-10-2013, 10:19 AM
Reggae_Mangle's Avatar
Reggae_Mangle Reggae_Mangle is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Away in India
Posts: 519
Default

Oh, so there's no God because he doesn't exist. He doesn't show himself, there's no proof, etc.

What about human rights? They sure as hell don't exist either. You have no rights.

As a matter of fact, everything around me is just a figment of my imagination. An illusion. When the dreamer wakes up, everyone of the made up people disappears.

"Ahooh, Gojira, you are so powerful"

Seriously, the "no proof" argument is really wearing thin in the 21st century. If someone died and there's no evidence, does that mean he was never alive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
. Just because that butterfly flaps its wings, in no way does it absolutely mean that there will be a flood in Texas. It makes for cool movies though.
Isn't that the beauty of it? Something so insignificant being altered that it has earth-shaking consequences. You could put it down to chaos theory or a higher power, I'm just stressing that there's isn't necessarily linearity between cause and effect.

Did the domino fall the other way? Freak happening or divine intervention. It's a sticky subject.
__________________
"... As war machine, crushes their balls, God have mercy..."

Last edited by Bernhard; 08-10-2013 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Edited by Arky: merging consecutive posts
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 08-10-2013, 11:08 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggae_Mangle View Post
What about human rights? They sure as hell don't exist either. You have no rights.

As a matter of fact, everything around me is just a figment of my imagination. An illusion. When the dreamer wakes up, everyone of the made up people disappears.
The thing that confuses me with "everything is an illusion" and the holographic principle etc is that if a piano drops on your head from a first storey balcony it makes no difference whether you perceive it or not ...
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 08-10-2013, 11:11 AM
MrInsanePolack's Avatar
MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 1,470
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggae_Mangle View Post
I'm just stressing that there's isn't necessarily linearity between cause and effect.
The reason a butterfly effect is a non-acceptable form of reason is because cause and effect are linear. Like I said earlier, it is a slippery slope. A slippery slope is fallacious in reasoning, because it tries to take a random series of events and link the first to the last. You can't do that logically.

If you heard me tell my kid that if they left their matchbox cars on the stairs we would be homeless, you would probably think I was nuts. But yet if they leave their cars on the stairs, I could fall down the stairs. If I fell down the stairs, I could break my neck. If I broke my neck, I could spend months in the hospital. If I spend months in the hospital, I could lose my job. If I lose my job, I don't get a paycheck. If I don't get a paycheck, I can't pay the bills. If I can't pay the bills, we will get evicted. If we get evicted, we will be homeless.

In no way does leaving toy cars on the stairs guarantee homelessness. This is why the butterfly effect is fun, but not a good argument. Too many ifs.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 08-10-2013, 11:21 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,307
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
if a piano drops on your head from a first storey balcony it makes no difference whether you perceive it or not ...
What if it fell in the middle of a forest and nobody heard it?




...
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 08-10-2013, 11:30 AM
BacteriumFendYoke's Avatar
BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Kent, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,363
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Seriously, the "no proof" argument is really wearing thin in the 21st century. If someone died and there's no evidence, does that mean he was never alive?
There's no such thing as 'proof' either. There's inference and evidence, supported hypothesis and theories but never proof - except for one a priori logical principle. Proof means that there is absolutely no way to refute the claims and if you actually study critical thinking, there is almost always a way to cast doubt upon a supported hypothesis or theory.

If we have no evidence to say somebody existed, then we have no reason to believe they existed. Why would you assume they did? What would constitute as evidence? I, for example, believe that Jesus Christ actually existed because there is a wealth of supporting evidence but I don't believe that he was the son of God.

Your existence isn't an illusion - it's the only thing that's absolutely and objectively true. It's called the 'cogito'. I suggest you look it up. However, there is no absolute way to 'prove' (in the true sense of the word) that anything you observe, see, touch, feel or experience is real. One draws a line between practical proof of reality based upon communicated interactions, etc. but actually there is no way to definitively prove that anything outside us exists. As somebody that has in the past suffered from psychotic episodes (hallucinations, visual and auditory) I can assure you that not all you see or hear is necessarily real.

No, there is no such thing as objective human rights. They don't necessarily exist. They are a construct made by humans for practical reasons. They certainly didn't exist before humans. Why the Hell would you use that as an example? Are you trying to say they're woven into the very fabric of the Universe? Bollocks. It's a terrible example if you're trying to demonstrate a point. In the same way, there is no such thing as objective morality, ethics, culinary practise, law, politics...
__________________
Bring Me Coffee or Tea
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 08-10-2013, 12:59 PM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
What if it fell in the middle of a forest and nobody heard it?...
But there's always "someone" in the forest to, if not hear it, at least sense it. Certainly the plants will notice in their planty way and the and bugs under the tree as it falls will certainly hear it!
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 08-10-2013, 02:29 PM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Cockroaches might not play music, but they can develop immunities to chemicals and pestacides as required. They also learn when they need to re-colonize due to irate humans! By no means are they dumb. But they have also had more time to evolve than we have.
Yeah, they're dumb. They don't need to be smart because their physical abilities are so strong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
I would say the placebo effect is no different than a psychosomatic response, except its a positive reaction instead of a negative one. No lie required, just insert an idea.
Agree. It's strange how our physical body can be so affected by our thoughts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
I sure hope so. Perhaps you have a better outlook on modern society than I do.

Mass Population Correction. I like that. If it comes in my lifetime, the machine I will probably form a lifetime bond with will surely have a trigger!
I like modern society. Sadly, at some stage billions will die and there's no other way things can possibly turn out as far as I can tell. The Earth will really transform in the next 50 years. Baby Boomers and Gen Xs are very lucky to be born when we were. The last few generations have enjoyed a golden age of prosperity. There may be other golden ages in the future, but I suspect not for a long time.

I guess that's kind of destiny.
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 08-10-2013, 03:24 PM
iwantmemoney's Avatar
iwantmemoney iwantmemoney is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Boston USA
Posts: 336
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Look at some drummers acting like we know something. I love this thread Uncle Larry. Are we divine? Did we take a left turn somewhere, fall from "Grace" or Cosmic awareness that we are Gods ourselves...and now we're quarantined from some universal podcast? Maybe there are millions of planets with more advanced life. Maybe we're overdue for a genetic upgrade.
I would definitely want Polly-Non to be one of my mentors (and personal trainer!).
__________________
putting the funk in dysfunctional...
Reply With Quote
  #101  
Old 08-10-2013, 03:45 PM
viva_nate viva_nate is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 64
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
The reason a butterfly effect is a non-acceptable form of reason is because cause and effect are linear. Like I said earlier, it is a slippery slope. A slippery slope is fallacious in reasoning, because it tries to take a random series of events and link the first to the last. You can't do that logically.
Well...I don't know. Logic and argument aren't the same thing, and contemporary rhetorics aren't as formal as logic, by design. Technically, the slippery slope fallacy doesn't really try to connect random series of events. The problem is the assumption of evidence for the worst possible outcome. The primary problem there is bad faith, not inherent consequence - which, I'd like to note, suggests a deterministic mechanism.

And considering the strong hint of panpsychism and anthropo-skepticism in this thread, I don't think causality should be assumed; I mean, you can assume for the purposes of your argument, but you'll never agree to terms. Non-causality in metaphysics and epistemology are pretty well-established (and still current), so statements like "we can all assume cause and effect" aren't really true for all metaphysical systems. If you think that all information or matter is similar, or that all is reducible to information or a matter, then cause and effect disappears or becomes only correlative.

Lively discussion. Good stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 08-10-2013, 08:49 PM
MrInsanePolack's Avatar
MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 1,470
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viva_nate View Post
Well...I don't know. Logic and argument aren't the same thing, and contemporary rhetorics aren't as formal as logic, by design. Technically, the slippery slope fallacy doesn't really try to connect random series of events. The problem is the assumption of evidence for the worst possible outcome. The primary problem there is bad faith, not inherent consequence - which, I'd like to note, suggests a deterministic mechanism.

And considering the strong hint of panpsychism and anthropo-skepticism in this thread, I don't think causality should be assumed; I mean, you can assume for the purposes of your argument, but you'll never agree to terms. Non-causality in metaphysics and epistemology are pretty well-established (and still current), so statements like "we can all assume cause and effect" aren't really true for all metaphysical systems. If you think that all information or matter is similar, or that all is reducible to information or a matter, then cause and effect disappears or becomes only correlative.

Lively discussion. Good stuff.
Logic is directly related to arguments. Logic is used to determine whether or not arguments are sound and valid in an argument. Ven diagrams, truth tables, and proofs are all part of logic, and are used to determine an arguments soundness and validity.

The slippery slope is an argumental fallacy that debunks the random series of events. The user who linked these events is guilty of using a slippery slope. Perhaps my wording left a bit to be desired.

No one, especially me, has assumed anything in reference to cause and effect. I do not use the word assume unless absolutely necessary. Assumption is the whole problem in a discussion like this. Once someone assumes something, fact gets thrown out the window and any answer then becomes acceptable. Why? Because unknown terms have been introduced.

Every effect has a cause. Correlation deals with relationships. Not guarantees. Example: There is a correlation between smoking and lung cancer. But lung cancer is not guaranteed to a smoker, nor is it necessarily caused by smoking. Non smokers can get lung cancer too.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 08-11-2013, 12:48 AM
viva_nate viva_nate is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 64
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Logic is directly related to arguments.
Yes, of course. "Every effect has a cause" is an assumption, and there's nothing wrong with that. Arguments are based on assumptions, all informal logic, all rhetoric, is probabilistic, is based on assumptions. If it didn't, it would have to rely on a formal language, like Logic does. (Aristotelian rhetoric/informal logic is based on three assumptions, for instance. You can't have a rational or informal logic without these assumptions)

I don't even necessarily disagree with assuming causal relationships. But my point is that the event isn't reduced to cause and effect in a lot of philosophical systems, current and ancient. The informal logic you cite, the naturalistic panpsychism of panspermia - these are hard to reconcile with strict causality. But you're insisting on it. I'll admit these are minor points in the scope of the argument, but they're technical points worth mentioning.

Quote:
The slippery slope is an argumental fallacy that debunks the random series of events. The user who linked these events is guilty of using a slippery slope. Perhaps my wording left a bit to be desired.
No, the wording was ok, I just don't believe the definition is correct. If you were talking about random connections between premises and conclusion, you'd be talking about non sequitur arguments.

Slippery slope arguments are generally intentional, and they're often effective (and valid). I feel like the appearance of the slope is what makes the "butterfly effect" rhetorically powerful, actually: there are so many steps on the slope with seemingly weak causality. But it's actually the steps that exhibit strong causality, and our perception of the steepness of the slope that makes us doubt the accuracy of the scientific model. It's the impossibility of the scale between the butterfly and the storm that intrigues us, but exhibits coherence when you focus. It mimics the models chaos proposes. It's a great metaphor.

Again, these are quibbles, kind of a fallacy in itself.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 08-11-2013, 02:41 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwantmemoney View Post
Look at some drummers acting like we know something. I love this thread Uncle Larry. Are we divine? Did we take a left turn somewhere, fall from "Grace" or Cosmic awareness that we are Gods ourselves...and now we're quarantined from some universal podcast? Maybe there are millions of planets with more advanced life. Maybe we're overdue for a genetic upgrade.
I would definitely want Polly-Non to be one of my mentors (and personal trainer!).
Ha! You really don't want a lazy retiree as your mentor :) Enjoying the thread too if not quite up to speed on the finer points of logical reasoning (probably obvious haha).

Nate ... "panpsychism"... now there's a concept. Is the universe one thing - a cohesive system like a complex organism? Or is it a just conglomeration of galactic clusters like a cosmic junkyard?

If the universe is a super organism, how much care would such a "being" put into its tiny component parts? Would it care as much about you as you'd care about the fate of a single cell in your body? Destiny baby ... maybe best not to rely on it ...

Or to make a Dead Poets Society-esque speculation - the entire universe could even be a single subatomic particle of a larger being. Or maybe not :)
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:20 AM
MrInsanePolack's Avatar
MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 1,470
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viva_nate View Post
Yes, of course. "Every effect has a cause" is an assumption, and there's nothing wrong with that. Arguments are based on assumptions, all informal logic, all rhetoric, is probabilistic, is based on assumptions. If it didn't, it would have to rely on a formal language, like Logic does. (Aristotelian rhetoric/informal logic is based on three assumptions, for instance. You can't have a rational or informal logic without these assumptions)

I don't even necessarily disagree with assuming causal relationships. But my point is that the event isn't reduced to cause and effect in a lot of philosophical systems, current and ancient. The informal logic you cite, the naturalistic panpsychism of panspermia - these are hard to reconcile with strict causality. But you're insisting on it. I'll admit these are minor points in the scope of the argument, but they're technical points worth mentioning.



No, the wording was ok, I just don't believe the definition is correct. If you were talking about random connections between premises and conclusion, you'd be talking about non sequitur arguments.

Slippery slope arguments are generally intentional, and they're often effective (and valid). I feel like the appearance of the slope is what makes the "butterfly effect" rhetorically powerful, actually: there are so many steps on the slope with seemingly weak causality. But it's actually the steps that exhibit strong causality, and our perception of the steepness of the slope that makes us doubt the accuracy of the scientific model. It's the impossibility of the scale between the butterfly and the storm that intrigues us, but exhibits coherence when you focus. It mimics the models chaos proposes. It's a great metaphor.

Again, these are quibbles, kind of a fallacy in itself.

I don't assume cause and effect. Show me an effect that has no cause. We may be using different definitions of the word assume. I use it as the insertion of an idea or principle that goes without knowing, but fits the parameters. I don't like that word.

I mentioned Panspermia twice, but never insisted on it. It does occur, but I only mentioned it as an idea as to why life itself was generated.

As far as Slippery Slope goes, it is not a valid form of argumentation. I have spent the past four semesters taking Philosophy, Logic, Ethics, and Critical Thinking, and can tell you without a doubt that the Slippery Slope is an argumental fallacy and is not acceptable as far as a reason to accept a claim. Every argument can be deconstructed as a slippery slope, but that is obviously in reverse.

I would just like to state that in this topic, I've picked my side, but that's it. I obviously don't know the answers, but also am not going to sway from the side I've chosen. I actually enjoy this kind of stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 08-11-2013, 06:07 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
I mentioned Panspermia twice, but never insisted on it. It does occur, but I only mentioned it as an idea as to why life itself was generated.
Panspermia may or may not explain how life on Earth began but it doesn't explain how life itself began. It's also possible that life on Earth began from a freak spontaneous replication as described in The Selfish Gene.

Or it's possible that life is just a stage in the evolution of the universe; just as living things have capacities beyond inanimate objects, something could spring from life that is more connected and potent still. The science fiction writer in me says that that our next stage of evolution will be cyborgism. We have been becoming more melded with our machines for a long time. This will only increase. In time we'll have all of Google at our disposal mentally as though the information was our own memories. We will be superhuman by today's standards.

The cyborgs' problem will be physical ailments since many will be living in a perfect virtual world and the body will lack exercise and won't evolve quickly enough. All body parts will be replaced by much more resilient mechanical parts. At one point there'll be just a brain in a mechanical body. Bit by bit the brain will be upgraded with mechanical replacement parts until there'll just be a frontal lobe. And then we will be much higher functioning machines - indestructable, able to travel interstellar distances. Can tear up any dance steps you can imagine with ease. Sing like Shirley Bassey. Almost anything.

But things won't be perfect. The songwriting will suck. There will be Pink Floyd and Devo tribute bands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
I would just like to state that in this topic, I've picked my side, but that's it. I obviously don't know the answers, but also am not going to sway from the side I've chosen. I actually enjoy this kind of stuff.
Hang on, I'm getting lost. Which side is that?

And yeah, I like this stuff more than drum chat, which is a lot!
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 08-11-2013, 06:19 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,131
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Alright. In my opinion, no. There cannot be free will in a world where pre-destiniy exists.

But there isn't any pre-destiny. No matter how you care to define it, there just isn't.
__________________
Call me J

Last edited by con struct; 08-11-2013 at 06:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 08-11-2013, 08:35 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

J, addressing the actual topic was sooo three days ago!

Death and taxes are part of everyone's destiny.
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:27 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,627
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Ants can't contemplate their existence. My point stands.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:33 PM
viva_nate viva_nate is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 64
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
I don't assume cause and effect. Show me an effect that has no cause.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Room_Correction

Quote:
We may be using different definitions of the word assume.
Oh we're using different senses of the word, yes. Non-causal systems are pretty well-established in philosophy; monads appear from ancient philosophy onwards. And just because causal explanations exist, doesn't mean that causes exist. Events may be causal; but it could be that explanations are ephemeral causal phenomena. If you present an argument about innate properties of matter (classical philosophy) or information (more recent), you're going to have to ask whether states are convenient or necessary properties of the object.

Consider the piano-falling-in-the-woods example upthread. You have an object, you have a space, and you therefore assume movement and presence in space and time. Now, imagine that same space, with no object in it. Do movement and time still provide explanative force (this is what Leibniz and Newton quarreled over)? Or is it the matter itself that provides the force, via will or some other innate energy?

Quote:
I mentioned Panspermia twice, but never insisted on it. It does occur, but I only mentioned it as an idea as to why life itself was generated
I understand. I'm not holding you to it. I'm making the suggestion that maybe you might want to consider rebutting non-causal approaches to better define where you stand re: determinism/indeterminism. The addition of panspermia contains a (more physicalist, I'll grant you) suggestion of panpsychism. If you accept that, you'll have trouble substantiating causal relationships.

Quote:
As far as Slippery Slope goes, it is not a valid form of argumentation. I have spent the past four semesters taking Philosophy, Logic, Ethics, and Critical Thinking, and can tell you without a doubt that the Slippery Slope is an argumental fallacy and is not acceptable as far as a reason to accept a claim. Every argument can be deconstructed as a slippery slope, but that is obviously in reverse.
I am confident in my bona fides as well. But it's such a technical issue, let's simply disagree & return to the original point, non tali auxilio etc. Also, that's a good course of study. Who have you been reading lately? I'd suggest Ian Bogost's stuff, it's an approachable start to speculative realism and OOP, which formal logicians and gamers might really dig. It's hard to suggest reading lists in philosophy w/o sounding pretentious, so I apologize in advance.

Quote:
I would just like to state that in this topic, I've picked my side, but that's it. I obviously don't know the answers, but also am not going to sway from the side I've chosen. I actually enjoy this kind of stuff.
That's certainly a good thing. I do too. Fun thread full of intelligent people.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:41 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,627
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post

I think ants would know they exist, in a similar way as we know we exist when we are infants. There's no existential rumination, of course, but ants certainly know enough of their own existence to recognise danger to themselves and battle like heck to survive - just as we do.
.
It sure seems that way. But did you hear about that experiment where a scientist programmed little bots with very simple instructions and they appeared to follow the social behavior ants exhibit that we thought was complex? He programmed incredibly simple instruction sets, like, "turn left when you run into something." Yet by all appearances, there was this complex behavioral stuff happening.

I think us humans tend to find more than is really there sometimes.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:50 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,627
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

My favorite way to contemplate whether or not there is destiny is this: Imagine if we could stop time and rewind it 10 seconds. When we played those 10 seconds back, would anything change from the way it played out the first time? And if you believe so, why?
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 08-11-2013, 06:01 PM
Jonny Sumo's Avatar
Jonny Sumo Jonny Sumo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Brigg nr Scunthorpe, UK
Posts: 160
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

I chose to read the posts in this thread...I think, or was it my destiny? I am very impressed with the arguments for and against, though I do not claim to understand all of them, who said drummers aren't intellectual beings?
I swallowed my crayon now....
__________________
'I STILL wanna be the man with the 50lb hammer...'
www.reverbnation.com/jonnysumo
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 08-11-2013, 06:23 PM
Midnite Zephyr's Avatar
Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Surf City, CA
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
My favorite way to contemplate whether or not there is destiny is this: Imagine if we could stop time and rewind it 10 seconds. When we played those 10 seconds back, would anything change from the way it played out the first time? And if you believe so, why?
I guess it depends where you stop the time and which 10 seconds you get to replay. Ten seconds can make all the difference in one's life depending on the circumstances involved; especially In terms of freewill decisions that determine your own destiny.

There are other destinies that are hereditary or conditional that one has almost no control over. That being said, I'm not going to be pretend that I understand half of what is being talked about in this thread.
__________________
5A Sticks--Coated Heads--Acoustic Drums--Cast Bronze Cymbals--Heavy-Duty Hardware
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 08-11-2013, 07:21 PM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 5,464
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Does anyone have any opinions on this?
I might have uncle Larry!!!

Who would thought that I was pre-destined to meet you at the LDS?

...or that the lovely house we just bought has been sold twice, the sale chain didn't went through twice, each time they had to put it back on the market, until we came around.... is that pre-destiny???

I don't really know, but I'm chuffed on both cases, you're a fine gentlman Larry and the house is perfect, it's my destiny and I'm pretty happy with it :)
__________________
Keep On Drumming
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 08-11-2013, 07:38 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 12,806
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
I might have uncle Larry!!!

Who would thought that I was pre-destined to meet you at the LDS?

...or that the lovely house we just bought has been sold twice, the sale chain didn't went through twice, each time they had to put it back on the market, until we came around.... is that pre-destiny???

I don't really know, but I'm chuffed on both cases, you're a fine gentlman Larry and the house is perfect, it's my destiny and I'm pretty happy with it :)
Man I'm glad to hear from you Henri! Welcome back man! And yes, you were destined to live in your house. If it happens and actually comes to pass, then it was meant to be that way. (JMO)

LDS is coming up and I am getting more excited by the week...

So Henri, are you settled enough to be able to contribute here? I'd like to hear all about what you have been doing these last few months. Good to have you back man!
__________________
Now go fetch your shine box like a good little Wumpus.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 08-12-2013, 01:30 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 4,641
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
It sure seems that way. But did you hear about that experiment where a scientist programmed little bots with very simple instructions and they appeared to follow the social behavior ants exhibit that we thought was complex? He programmed incredibly simple instruction sets, like, "turn left when you run into something." Yet by all appearances, there was this complex behavioral stuff happening.

I think us humans tend to find more than is really there sometimes.
Yep Larry, I saw that on YT (note increasing commonality of the neo-cyborgs' knowledge as the hive mind develops). If I remember correctly, the inventor of the swarm bots had built in some programming so the bots could "learn".

Are we assuming there's more to animals than there really is? Or do we underestimate them?

My view is based on the fact that I know what it feels like to be alive and I can't see why the experience of being, surviving, thriving, pleasure and pain, etc would be so different for other animals. Philosophers talk about "the problem of other minds", which means we cannot be sure than any other person or animal is conscious or just programmed.

Our intuition says so but we can't know for sure, which was the thrust of a famous philosophical piece called 'What Is It Like To Be A Bat?" ... the answer, of course, being "dunno".

But do we really not know or do we expect too much certainty? Life for me seems pretty well as other humans describe it. So I'll assume it's not The Truman Show and everyone else is conscious and experiences life in a similar way to me - trials and tribulations, health and illness, happiness and sadness etc.

Now all this appears pretty similar to my dog. Her behaviour suggests a mentality like a human child whose mental age will never advance beyond 6 years or so. Given our different senses, she seems to respond to stimulus pretty similarly to how I did as a child.

I suspect that all animals have a commonality of existence - just with different senses, capacities and general makeup. Certainly, an ant's capacity for pain would seem trivial as compared with the Shakespearean suffering we humans experience, but an ant's suffering may not seem so trivial to the ant concerned ...
__________________
YouTube channel

Soundcloud stream
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 08-12-2013, 02:39 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 12,806
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Nice post Grea. Animals experience pain and I think all the other emotions we do. Maybe they can't express them in a way we understand. When I finally saw my cat after 3 weeks (I thought he ran away) I was all kinds of happy. He looked completely indifferent, no emotion like you would see in a dog. But when we leave for vacation, he becomes a wreck, doesn't eat. I caught a toad while fishing last week, and when I thrust my hook point through his thigh muscle, the sound he made let me know for sure he was in pain. He caught me no bass, so I let him off the hook. I bet he felt a little relief at being able to go free. This topic has gotten too deep for me to comment on anymore. You guys amaze me.
__________________
Now go fetch your shine box like a good little Wumpus.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 08-12-2013, 03:12 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,131
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
J, addressing the actual topic was sooo three days ago!

Death and taxes are part of everyone's destiny.
You told me I should give vegetables to my dog, from the table, from the plate on top of It, you did! I remember it! This proves it, you see, aw gosh, don't you see? Truly, this proves that there can be free will in a world where pre-destiny...what was it again?
__________________
Call me J
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 08-12-2013, 04:52 AM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,627
Default Re: Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

I dunno, Grea. Dogs are pretty smart. Lumping all animals together isn't really something you can do. Some animals don't have even a central nervous system. They're not experiencing much more than plants are. Worms and ants aren't dogs.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com