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  #1  
Old 07-30-2013, 04:54 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

I've recently went to a Pearl ICON setup, instead of stands (which I've used for over the last 30 years).

I LOVE the flexibility and control I have for mounting options. However, when I was putting the cymbals on, I heard the metal of the wing nut being applied vibrate throughout the rack.

I've observed resonance in the bass drum, with mounted toms attached, but it wasn't until recently, when I was playing a gig with a WONDERFULLY mic'd kick sound and someone approached me about my splash cymbal (mounted to the tom arm, mounted in the bass drum) having a booom when I hit it.

At that point, I knew I had to do something. If I loosen the cymbals, this is less apparent, but still noticeable. Any ideas on how to minimize this cross vibration? Or will it not matter if mic'd/mixed/etc... differently?

I'm using Pearl ICON rack, with PCX-100 clamps, Gibraltar booms, and DW cymbal felts (with the top plastic piece attached to enable slightly more holding force).

I'm asking for both live and recording (don't really care about practice, or home use).
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Old 07-30-2013, 05:37 PM
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alparrott alparrott is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
I've recently went to a Pearl ICON setup, instead of stands (which I've used for over the last 30 years).

I LOVE the flexibility and control I have for mounting options. However, when I was putting the cymbals on, I heard the metal of the wing nut being applied vibrate throughout the rack.

I've observed resonance in the bass drum, with mounted toms attached, but it wasn't until recently, when I was playing a gig with a WONDERFULLY mic'd kick sound and someone approached me about my splash cymbal (mounted to the tom arm, mounted in the bass drum) having a booom when I hit it.

At that point, I knew I had to do something. If I loosen the cymbals, this is less apparent, but still noticeable. Any ideas on how to minimize this cross vibration? Or will it not matter if mic'd/mixed/etc... differently?

I'm using Pearl ICON rack, with PCX-100 clamps, Gibraltar booms, and DW cymbal felts (with the top plastic piece attached to enable slightly more holding force).

I'm asking for both live and recording (don't really care about practice, or home use).
When I have a wing nut that rattles or rings due to vibration, I'll take it off and replace it with one of the Tama sleeve-and-nut combos; they're nylon and don't rattle at all. I sometimes cut them down to various tilter lengths; it's even possible to saw off the sleeve altogether and be left with a vinyl nut. Pearl also makes a vinyl wingnut. Those seem like your best bet.
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Old 07-30-2013, 05:48 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by alparrott View Post
When I have a wing nut that rattles or rings due to vibration, I'll take it off and replace it with one of the Tama sleeve-and-nut combos; they're nylon and don't rattle at all. I sometimes cut them down to various tilter lengths; it's even possible to saw off the sleeve altogether and be left with a vinyl nut. Pearl also makes a vinyl wingnut. Those seem like your best bet.
I've used the Tama wingnuts in the past. I have them on my home kit, and I hear minor vibrations from just the individual stand.

The wing nut itself isn't vibrating, the sound of the wing nut being applied generated the vibration. I can replicate the vibration by tapping the cymbal stand (even with no cymbal or wingnut on).

I believe that because all of the stands are connected through the rack, the vibration is being conducted everywhere. Ironically, this is what I was hoping to avoid. I also believe that because I purposely over-tighten my cymbals, this is being exaggerated.
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Old 07-30-2013, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

I'd say just loosen your cymbals as much as you can. Why do you have them so tight? Is it for the feel or for the sound?
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

One issue with any rack is you hit one thing, and something else attached to the rack vibrates as well.

Several years ago I was doing some recording with a rack, and I noticed every time I hit a certain tom, my splash cymbal vibrated as if I had lightly hit it too. Drove me nuts! So I went back to stands.

One thing I've read but NOT tried myself is to go a hardware store and buy spray foam, and fill up the inside of the rack tube with foam.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:40 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by PQleyR View Post
I'd say just loosen your cymbals as much as you can. Why do you have them so tight? Is it for the feel or for the sound?
I have a preference to tight cymbals, because I like them always being at the same place/same angle everytime I hit them, regardless of the tempo or volume of each hit. I don't mind a little sway, but I find I can only achieve this with those Tama cymbal locking nuts (quick lock something, something...). They apply tightly, but leave a little room for movement. I'm going to try those out tomorrow night, and see if they are reliable (read: don't fly off after some quick hard hits).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
One issue with any rack is you hit one thing, and something else attached to the rack vibrates as well.

Several years ago I was doing some recording with a rack, and I noticed every time I hit a certain tom, my splash cymbal vibrated as if I had lightly hit it too. Drove me nuts! So I went back to stands.

One thing I've read but NOT tried myself is to go a hardware store and buy spray foam, and fill up the inside of the rack tube with foam.
Oh... NO!

This is exact thing I was hoping to avoid. I've put a little too much into this setup to go back now. I hope I can make it work. I don't know how to get inside the ICON square tube, but the vertical legs are easily accessible. Obviously just foam, but are there any concerns over time? Like the foam becoming dried up from different conditions (hot/cold/moisture) and then crumbling (from vibration)?

At least I now know I'm not alone here. I hope I can find something that works.

I was hoping for something less intrusive (less permanent), like an appropriately placed gasket somewhere with some high-speed thin material that costs $1.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
Obviously just foam, but are there any concerns over time? Like the foam becoming dried up from different conditions (hot/cold/moisture) and then crumbling (from vibration)?

At least I now know I'm not alone here. I hope I can find something that works.

I was hoping for something less intrusive (less permanent), like an appropriately placed gasket somewhere with some high-speed thin material that costs $1.
Spray foam is pretty common in home construction, so it's pretty durable. It is much like glue, in that is sticks to itself (and fabric). I highly doubt it will fall out over time. And it conforms to any shape easily.

Just wear gloves and old clothes when applying, because if it gets on fabric, it will NOT come off!

I've been considering getting my Tama rack out of retirement, foaming it, and giving it another go.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:50 PM
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

When I play at church, sometimes the bass drum makes the tambourine rattle. The tambourine is on a stand that also has a China cymbal on it, and the stand is about two feet from the bass drum, which is, of course, a Mapex Saturn. Peace and goodwill.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:52 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

So what you're saying is - I can't just put a patch of moon gel on my rack and call it day?

I might wait until someone reports back with results.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
So what you're saying is - I can't just put a patch of moon gel on my rack and call it day?

I might wait until someone reports back with results.
I don't know. Maybe?

Try it and find out, and then report back! Maybe that's all it takes.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:04 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I don't know. Maybe?

Try it and find out, and then report back! Maybe that's all it takes.
Tried the patch of moon gel, no joy.

Thinking about rubber gaskets at the clamps.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:16 AM
MrLeadFoot MrLeadFoot is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

I've been playing on a rack since the early 80s. Simply put, there is nothing you can do about the resonance a rack generates, although I have never tried spray foam, and am scared to, because if I try it, and it does NOT work, I don't want the headache of trying to remove it from the myriad of rack bars I use. In fact, if the resonance was a REAL issue, I would think DW or Gibraltar would have addressed it by pre-filling their racks tubes with the stuff.

That said, I do not have ANY rattling of any kind, be it cymbals or hardware. You can, however, detect the resonance across the rack IF you hit a crash and nothing else, and then listen close enough for the sound to travel through the rack. But, rest assured that none of it is picked up my mics when recording or playing live.

In fact, I have 48" uprights and have mic boom arms with two overhead condensers inserted into the tops of them, and fly my vocal mic boom off the left upright as well, via a Gibraltar Multi-Adjust Multi-Clamp. I fly 3 crashes off those uprights ,too. If I stand right in front of my kit and have someone hit one crash, and only one crash, if I listen carefully, I can hear the vibration of the cymbal resonate through my rack. However, I can NOT hear any resonance when the kit is played, let alone when the full band plays.

Being that I use in-ear-monitor (IEMs), I ALWAYS fully mic my kit. Along with the overheads, each drum has it's own mic mouned directly to the drum. We record all rehearsals and gigs, and I have never once heard any of the resonance on the recordings, even when a song opens or ends with a solo crash.

When I first started mic'ing everything, I ran a boom from a crossbar down to my kick. Everything sounded fine in the rehearsals. Part way through the first gig I did with that setup, we started getting feedback. We couldn't figure out where it was coming from, and could only solve it by turning everything down. At the end of the night, I decided to troubleshoot it. Turned out it was coming from that mic. When I moved the mic to a stand, the feedback went away. In fact, it was then that I realized the resonance in the rack. I never noticed it before that.

Shortly thereafter, I started using a Kelly Shu, which suspends a mic inside the kick drum, and never had that problem again. But, once I knew the resonance was there, I became obsessed with it, and tried to find a cure (even though you can't really hear it). I even bought 3 Gibraltar mic shock mounts. These are little adapters that put a short piece of solid rubber between the boom arm and the mic clip, so there is no longer a straight shot of metal running from the mic to the arm and rack. I use them on my overheads and vocal mics, which as I mentioned, are attached to the rack. While they probably do isolate the mics a bit, I noticed no sonic difference whatsoever. But, then again, like I said, I didn't previously hear the resonance on any recordings. In fact, since I use ambient-sound-isolating IEMs, and with these I hear every little nuance that people listening to monitors don't hear at all, and I still do not hear ANY resonance from the rack.

Sorry so long, but I thought I'd share this to save you from becoming obsessed with the resonance like I became... for naught.

FWIW, I run a Tama Power Tower, which is made of brushed stainless steel ROUND tubes, which I would think would make resonance a bit more prominent than a square tube rack, so if recordings don't pick up anything on my rack, I don't think you'd hear any of it with a square-tubed rack, either.

And, if you start thinking that more tubes make it worse, and consider reducing the number of rack bars, think again. Until recently, I had a 3-tiered rack with 2 side wings. Connected to my 48" uprights were two extension bars, and the top tier was connected to those. That top tier held 3 cymbals, one of which was a ride, my two overheads and my vocal mic boom. The middle tier held 3 electronic triggers. The bottom tier held 3 rack toms. Connected to my left side wing is a legless hi-hat stand, which I still use today, a sizzle ride, and a an electric snare trigger. My right side wing holds a ride and China. Oh, and I also have connected down low on my left upright, a 30" bar to which my legless snare stand is connected. And, with all these bars, I still could not hear any resonance while playing, nor did any recordings reveal even the slightest hint of it.

I absolutely love racks. More flexibility than any other mounting, and consistent setup EVERY single time. I refuse to play without one. In fact, along with everything else I play, a church at which I play in a contemporary worship band has a rack just for me. But, being the ANAL person I am, believe me when I tell you, if the resonance could be heard by me live or recorded, I would have stopped using a rack immediately.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:08 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot View Post
I've been playing on a rack since the early 80s. Simply put, there is nothing you can do about the resonance a rack generates...
THANK YOU!

This is exactly the reassurance I needed to continue with my rack setup. My first outing with it is this Friday, and I guess I'll just see how it goes.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:01 PM
MrLeadFoot MrLeadFoot is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

One thing I forgot to mention about the cymbals and vibration: When I was trying to figure this all out, I did notice that using flexible, clear plastic tubing in place of standard hard plastic or nylon sleeves reduced the vibration of the cymbals through rack. Think about it - when your cymbal vibrates and is touching a hard plastic sleeve, which in turn is touching the metal cymbal rod, well, you get the picture.

FWIW, because I like my cymbals high (overhead), which requires my cymbals to be severely angled for best playing and sound. And, like you, I like the consistency a top felt and retainer provide in regards to angle positioning. At one time I ran open tops and angled the tilters even more severely to attain the angle I like. While I noticed an ever-so-slight difference in sustain, that could only barely be heard when you hit a cymbal all by itself, followed my nothing else. If people think they're going to notice that difference when playing a full kit in a band setting, or even on a recorded mix, they've got a second thing coming. I don't even notice it on my sizzle ride, which is the one cymbal you would really notice the difference on, if the difference was significant at all, and incidentally I run that sizzle open on top because it is positioned lower, off to the side, and a ride doesn't wobble around (if you know how to play cymbals properly, that is), just for faster setup and breakdown. I fact, I run my standard ride open, too, and because I don't like rides to ring out too much, I would put a top felt on it, if I felt (no pun) that would help, but it doesn't, so I don't.

Oh, speaking of isolating cymbals, I recently put grommets (not Grrombals) on all my cymbals, not for the purpose of isloating vibration, but for protecting the holes from wear when sliding the cymbals on and off stands, which I do several times a week, as I play in different settings weekly. You can read about that on the thread linked to below. While I was not looking for it, being that I already know that vibration-through-the-rack was already there, I did seem to notice a bit less vibration with the grommets installed, even though I installed special hard sleeves with them. Anyway, after using Tama wingnut-sleeve combos for years on some of my cymbals, a few months ago I siwtched to Tama's plastic Quick-Set Cymbal Mates, to help speed up setup and breakdown. Even with the severe angle of my tilters, I have never had one fly off, and I have 13", 16" and 17" Vintage Zildjian Thin Crashes, and an 18" Sabian Hand-Hammered Thin China, all of which move a substantial amount when struck. Of course, I've never broken a cymbal in my life, either. Maybe I have good technique, I don't know, but I mention this because you seem to like angled cymbals like me, and the Tama Cymbal Mates might help you, since you obviously got a rack for not only ultimate flexibility, but for consistency and quick setup, too.

Cymbal Grommet vs. Grombal Thread
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:27 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot View Post
... Anyway, after using Tama wingnut-sleeve combos for years on some of my cymbals, a few months ago I siwtched to Tama's plastic Quick-Set Cymbal Mates, to help speed up setup and breakdown. Even with the severe angle of my tilters, I have never had one fly off, and I have 13", 16" and 17" Vintage Zildjian Thin Crashes, and an 18" Sabian Hand-Hammered Thin China, all of which move a substantial amount when struck. Of course, I've never broken a cymbal in my life, either. Maybe I have good technique, I don't know, but I mention this because you seem to like angled cymbals like me, and the Tama Cymbal Mates might help you, since you obviously got a rack for not only ultimate flexibility, but for consistency and quick setup, too.

Cymbal Grommet vs. Grombal Thread
Again, thank you!

I just picked up my first Quick-Set Cymbal Mate 2 days ago. When just striking it a few times, it appears to allow that slight movement I'm happy with. I'm bringing it tonight, for a full practice, hoping to see how it holds up. If all goes well, I'll probably get them for every other cymbal. I have to invert it (with the logo face down), because of the top felt, there is only one thread for grip. Once I invert the Cymbal Mate, it appears to hold up well.

It appears you and I have similar preferences...
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:35 PM
MrLeadFoot MrLeadFoot is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

Are you sure that maybe the little shaft on the bottom of the Cymbal Make is not contacting the cymbal sleeve prematurely? For example, I have some Gibraltar one-piece seats/sleeves that have different length sleeves on them. I don't use them anymore, but I did notice that when I use the longer sleeve models on some cymbal tilters that little nub of a shaft on the Cymbal Mate would come into contact with the longer sleeve, before I could snug it up to the felt, but when I used the shorter sleeved models, it's fine.

If one of your felts is indeed too thick, and you turn the Cymbal Mate upside down, you will likely end up with an exposed cymbal tilter rod under the felts. Depending upon some factors, like how hard you hit your cymbals, how long your sleeves and tilter rods are, etc., your cymbal might wobble up and hit that piece of the exposed tilter rod, which would not be good. That little shaft nub on the Cymbal Mate is designed to marry up with the sleeve, so that you don't have exposed tilter rod. If this is the case, you should replace one of your felts with a thinner one. FWIW, the Gibraltar arms and stands typically come with two felts, one of which is thicker than the other, so there are felts with thicknesses out there.

Post some pics of your new rack when you get a chance. I would love to see how your set it up. I'm sure your first configuration will only be one of many that you try with your new life as a rack-playing drummer!

Here's one of a preliminary setup with my vintage Tama Royalstars and vintage Simmons pads at an outside concert before the mics were attached. Note that this setup had over $800 in clamps alone, which I accumulated over time. I have since replaced the front-facing ones with new Gibraltar chrome Stealth clamps. I've also moved to t-legs bases with DW t-leg clamps. Note that the footprint for this behemoth setup is only 5'x5', so it fit in the smallest of spaces that even a 4 piece cocktail kit with stands would never fit in.


Here's the drummer's view of the same setup, again before the mics were attached:
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:47 PM
MrLeadFoot MrLeadFoot is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

Here's the same setup without the electrics, but with mics installed. Speaking of which, be sure to drum-mount your drum mics, instead of mounting the mics on the rack. Since the drums will flex on their mounts when hit, you want the mics to move with them to maintain the proper distance between the mics and the drums. You will also not pick up any rack resonance with the mics. ;-)



Close-up of same.
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Last edited by MrLeadFoot; 07-31-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:58 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

You're shooting all kinds of holes in my attempt to be free... I don't like some of the mic placements, when attached to drums. I was hoping to get the mics connected to a boom, then down to a clamp. I think this was in the back of my mind when looking out for resonance on the rack.

The reason I invert the Cymbal Mate, is because of the DW double felt thing:

As the felts wear the cymbal can move a little (sometimes it would flex up into the wing nut, and begin to loosen them). With these, I haven't had many cymbal issues at all.

So the little stub that sticks out does not fit inside the DW cymbal felt combo.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:36 PM
MrLeadFoot MrLeadFoot is offline
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Default Re: Help Eliminate Cymbal Resonance

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
You're shooting all kinds of holes in my attempt to be free... I don't like some of the mic placements, when attached to drums. I was hoping to get the mics connected to a boom, then down to a clamp. I think this was in the back of my mind when looking out for resonance on the rack.
A mic picking up resonance will depend upon frequency capabilities of the mic, so my experience with the kick mic might not necessarily be indicative of what happens with toms and snares, so you could try it and see. You can also EQ out the offending frequency range, but I have a Mapex Saturn and the sound is just too sweet to want to EQ. Flex is something you're going to have to see for yourself. If your tom flexes 2 inches and your mic does not, well....

Quote:
The reason I invert the Cymbal Mate, is because of the DW double felt thing:
As the felts wear the cymbal can move a little (sometimes it would flex up into the wing nut, and begin to loosen them). With these, I haven't had many cymbal issues at all.

So the little stub that sticks out does not fit inside the DW cymbal felt combo.
I get it. :-)
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